My DM allowed me to use a warlock. Origonally he got me interested in Warlock when it was going to be 3.5 in his own manufactured world but then he changed to Pathfinder and I was pretty downcast about it, but he threw me a bone and let me do it, though he changed things to Pathfinderise the class. Here's the changes he made:
Increased HD so instead of D6 it was D8 as other caster classes have had a increased HD.
Can use shields without incurring arcane spell failour since Bards have them now.
+1 more starting Invocation
I'm sure given the time he would've done more to the class to make it a lot more balanced, but nothing else was done to it. My character was very unique and strange since there were no Warlocks in Golarian where we moved to and I had it so that he had strange tatoos covering every part of his flesh.
Unfortunatly this freaked out some people and had a lot of fun. Sure there's only Eldrich Blast at early level, but then again you don't get to do much else at early levels on other characters. Later you do get some really nice Invocations like:
GREATER INVOCATIONS
Bewitching Blast: Target must make Will save or be confused
for 1 round.
Chilling Tentacles: Use Evard’s black tentacles as the spell, and deal extra cold damage to creatures in the area.
Devour Magic: Use targeted greater dispel magic with a touch and gain temporary hit points based on the level of spells successfully dispelled.
Eldritch Cone: Blast takes the shape of a cone.
Enervating Shadow: Gain total concealment in dark areas and impose a Strength penalty on adjacent living creatures.
Noxious Blast: Target must make Fortitude save or be nauseated.
Repelling Blast: Target must make Reflex save or be knocked back.
Tenacious Plague: Use insect plague as the spell, but the summoned locust swarm deals damage as a magic weapon.
Vitriolic Blast: Blast ignores spell resistance and deals acid damage for several rounds.
Wall of Perilous Flame: Create a wall of fire as the spell, but half the damage from the wall results from supernatural power.
Warlock’s Call: Use sending as the spell, but risk damage from recipient.
Or the most powerful ones:
DARK INVOCATIONS
Dark Discorporation: Become a swarm of batlike shadows, gaining many benefits of the swarm subtype.
Dark Foresight: Use foresight as the spell, and communicate telepathically with a close target of the effect.
Eldritch Doom: Blast affects all enemies within 20 feet.
Path of Shadow: Use shadow walk as the spell and speed up natural healing.
Retributive Invisibility: Use greater invisibility as the spell (self only); deals damage in a burst if dispelled.
Utterdark Blast: Target must make Fortitude save or gain two negative levels.
Word of Changing: Use baleful polymorph as the spell, but effect could become permanent.
Of course I think some of the abilities should be unlocked earlier for balance, but I don't know. I'm thinking about making a conversion for Pathfinder to post on Pathfinder SRD however I'm not sure now with the earlier posts pointing out that Warlock isn't a OGL class.
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The APG witch is actually a very similar class, only much more flexible. The hexes are a replacement for invocations (several levels of power of at-will magical abilities). The witch adds the flexibility of spells...in fact a full 9-level caster. The flavor is rather similar, with the witch gaining her power from a mysterious pact with greater forces, often beyond even her understanding. The only thing that is really missing is the eldritch blast ability, but I'd say the spells are a more than adequate replacement. Besides, having played a warlock for almost 10 levels, they rather quickly become a bit of a one-note character...my character didn't even bother to carry weapons.
Elghinn, had you given thought to tying the eldritch blast to an ability score, and adding the mod to damage? That might take out some of the suckage at higher levels...CHA would probably fit.
EDIT: You prolly wouldn't want this at lower levels...ranged touch attacks doing 1d6 + CHA might be a bit much...but later it might fit like:
Added punch (Ex): Starting at x level, the Warlock adds his Cha mod to his eldritch blast damage. This damage bonus is doubled on a sucessful critical hit.
EDIT 2: Just thought of another idea...
What about giving them the equivalent of the opposite of the Arcane Blast feat, that would allow them to convert their eldritch blast into a non-damaging spell of a level equal to half its strength. Like for instance a Warlock with a 6d6 EB can convert it to a 3rd level arcane "utility" spell...highest they'd ever get would be 5th level effects...using their Warlock level as caster level...
Check out this warlock class that I found.
http://www.pathfinderdb.com/character-options/classes/951-warlock
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A little bit about what I was trying to do here. I have always liked the warlock because of it's eldritch blast ability, but felt that once per turn at will was quite over powered, especially as a ranged touch attack. So I decided that I would tone it down a bit and make it more limited. I also wanted to bring the class more in line with the traditional view of what a warlock is, which was a spellcaster that had made a pact with the devil. Therefore I went ahead and gave it the same spell progression as a bard and tied the fluff to Asmodeus and the Dukes of Hell. More importantly I left it open enough that the DM could actually have the Dukes using their warlocks against each other. In my campaigns I have handled the Infernal realm very much like the way movies and television portray the mafia. It is very ordered but the various levels are constantly vieing for power against each other in a giant game of chess. If you fail you are punished for your insubordination but if you succeed in your schemes either the boss looks the other way, or (ultimately) you become the boss. I also wanted to incorporate a few things that I liked about the WoW tabletop game version of the warlock into my version of the class. So a few things, like the Infernal Companion ability, got lifted from WoW and ported into Pathfinder via this class. Finally, the image a Hellknight warlock dressed in their faceless, evil looking armor just appealed to me so much that I had to let them cast in armor because in my mind the image just seemed so cool.
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A little bit about what I was trying to do here. I have always liked the warlock because of it's eldritch blast ability, but felt that once per turn at will was quite over powered, especially as a ranged touch attack. So I decided that I would tone it down a bit and make it more limited. I also wanted to bring the class more in line with the traditional view of what a warlock is, which was a spellcaster that had made a pact with the devil. Therefore I went ahead and gave it the same spell progression as a bard and tied the fluff to Asmodeus and the Dukes of Hell. More importantly I left it open enough that the DM could actually have the Dukes using their warlocks against each other. In my campaigns I have handled the Infernal realm very much like the way movies and television portray the mafia. It is very ordered but the various levels are constantly vieing for power against each other in a giant game of chess. If you fail you are punished for your insubordination but if you succeed in your schemes either the boss looks the other way, or (ultimately) you become the boss. I also wanted to incorporate a few things that I liked about the WoW tabletop game version of the warlock into my version of the class. So a few things, like the Infernal Companion ability, got lifted from WoW and ported into Pathfinder via this class. Finally, the image a Hellknight warlock dressed in their faceless, evil looking armor just appealed to me so much that I had to let them cast in armor because in my mind the image just seemed so cool.
actually in action Eldrrich blas is horribly underpowered. a 20th level warlock can have 1 9d6 blast a round. a rogue can add 9d6 sneak attack to 3 attacks, 6 if the twf, more with haste and other stuff. a fighter with a great sword should be pumping out 7d6 (5d6 from energy stuff)+ ridiculous numbers per attack by that point too.
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actually in action Eldrrich blas is horribly underpowered. a 20th level warlock can have 1 9d6 blast a round. a rogue can add 9d6 sneak attack to 3 attacks, 6 if the twf, more with haste and other stuff. a fighter with a great sword should be pumping out 7d6 (5d6 from energy stuff)+ ridiculous numbers per attack by that point too.
I offer the fact that less than 5% of games (Not to mention characters) make it past level 15. Comparing the power level of a class class in PnP RPGs is far different than in MMO's and the like where most of the playtime is assumed to be at the level cap. In our incarnation of the worlds most popular role-playing game high level play is a rarity in actual gameplay, which is where it matters, not on some spreadsheet.
Elghinn, had you given thought to tying the eldritch blast to an ability score, and adding the mod to damage? That might take out some of the suckage at higher levels...CHA would probably fit.
EDIT: You prolly wouldn't want this at lower levels...ranged touch attacks doing 1d6 + CHA might be a bit much...but later it might fit like:
Added punch (Ex): Starting at x level, the Warlock adds his Cha mod to his eldritch blast damage. This damage bonus is doubled on a sucessful critical hit.EDIT 2: Just thought of another idea...
What about giving them the equivalent of the opposite of the Arcane Blast feat, that would allow them to convert their eldritch blast into a non-damaging spell of a level equal to half its strength. Like for instance a Warlock with a 6d6 EB can convert it to a 3rd level arcane "utility" spell...highest they'd ever get would be 5th level effects...using their Warlock level as caster level...
I like these ideas.
Also, what books are metamagic feats for SLA's from?
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actually in action Eldritch blast is horribly underpowered. a 20th level warlock can have 1 9d6 blast a round. a rogue can add 9d6 sneak attack to 3 attacks, 6 if the twf, more with haste and other stuff. a fighter with a great sword should be pumping out 7d6 (5d6 from energy stuff)+ ridiculous numbers per attack by that point too.
Most of the campaigns I have played in have run to between 10th and 13th level. Some have never gotten past 5th level. That was the background that I had been using when I was doing my work. Although I added the spell casting to somewhat fill in the power gap.
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Nice statistics you have backing that statement up, Carbon. :) I'll have you know that my experience is 50/50 in low vs high.
Then you should note that you are the exception in this case. While at this time the article eludes me but it was done from a gala poll from several message-boards some years back during the 3.5 cluster-f*^% around epic level play rules. While it was as unscientific as anything else that can be done these kind of things cant really be done in a laboratory.
That aside, it is senseless to try to argue that high level play and balance is as influential (and by extension important) as low-mid level play. We all know in our heart of hearts that high level games are exceedingly rare and are usually 1 shots done so you can kill some big bad.
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So we shouldn't worry about how the car performs at 90 because few people drive at that speed?
More like we shouldn't put as much stock in how a car performs at 115 as opposed to how well it does at 1-114 mph.
I say 115 because I know on I-94 I sometimes have to hit 85 if I want to pass someone with any expedience and safety.
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it scales pretty much the same. at 10th level its same as a fighter using vital strike and a great sword (5d6 vs 4d6+big numbers+weapon abilities) or the damage a rogue adds to each attack. regular archers are dealing the same or more damage on full attacks.
no matter what damage the warlocks doing, its out classed by everyone but the bard (who's biggest main damage comes from what its giving all their allies).
the problem is it evokes a knee jerk reaction when you think of it as "holy crap you did #d6 damage in one shot!!!!!", but the rogue does the same thing but with more attacks every round (and the alchemist with fast bombs)
so at level 10 avg dpr of 18, and 36 dpr at 20th level isnt scary at all.
i think it needs too be suped up to the point EB is an afterthought and useable lvl+cha mod times a day, multiple times a round (like alchemists bombs)
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it scales pretty much the same. at 10th level its same as a fighter using vital strike and a great sword (5d6 vs 4d6+big numbers+weapon abilities) or the damage a rogue adds to each attack. regular archers are dealing the same or more damage on full attacks.
no matter what damage the warlocks doing, its out classed by everyone but the bard (who's biggest main damage comes from what its giving all their allies).
the problem is it evokes a knee jerk reaction when you think of it as "holy crap you did #d6 damage in one shot!!!!!", but the rogue does the same thing but with more attacks every round (and the alchemist with fast bombs)
so at level 10 avg dpr of 18, and 36 dpr at 20th level isnt scary at all.
i think it needs too be suped up to the point EB is an afterthought and useable lvl+cha mod times a day, multiple times a round (like alchemists bombs)
Here is the flaw in your argument, as I see it. Yes the rogue can do that fancy sneak attack thing, but only if someone flanks with him or otherwise does something that deprives his opponent of his Dex modifier. In my experience that is often easier said than done, particularly if there are multiple opponents in play. The fighter can use vital strike, which is awesome no doubt, but only if he hits the enemies AC and again that might be easier said than done based on the difficulty of the encounter. Also at least for the first 10 or so levels the fighter should be your primary damage dealer.
The way I see it, the warlock was never meant to be the primary damage dealer in a party. The warlock, as I designed it anyway, is meant to be the helicopter gunship. For example, his hellfire ability lets you stand 60 ft out and only have to hit an opponents touch AC. Plus he has some nifty spells that, admittedly, he can't cast always but give him some advantage over the fighter particularly at lower levels. And he has a devil summoned from the pits of hell for a little added toughness. At 6th level he can have a bearded devil as his companion, at 10th he can have an Eyrine. Again I will admit that this ability becomes less useful after that, but up to 15th level where most campaigns start to fizzle out as I have been told, it still is somewhat effective. At 10th level he can teleport upto 100 ft per day which is great for gaining and advantagous position against an enemy. At 12th level he can command evil outsiders the way an evil cleric commands undead.
Yes the warlock is not primarally a damage dealer but he does not need to be. His role is fire support, much like a sorcerer. Ultimately I will agree that the warlock is flawed, and unfortuantely it will very likely always be so. However, I think that if you give my version of the warlock a try, you find that he is no worse off than any other class when used in the real world.
People keep bringing it up, but is "finding a flank" really that difficult of an issue? Between the other melee classes, the summons, the class pets, etc, etc, there's a million ways to get a flanking buddy.
Even beyond that there's even more ways to get make an enemy flatfooted.
The warlock's damage is only "awesome" at level one. As soon as the rogue gets a second attack - which could be level 2 or 3, quite frankly - he's out-damaging the warlock consistently.
d6's aren't that big of a deal.
Here is the flaw in your argument, as I see it.
His argument is perfectly fine. Flanking is absurdly easy to get. A rogue that cannot sneak attack on at least 90% of his attacks over the life of his career is being played by a moron or being played in a solo campaign.
Calling eldritch blast overpowered does nothing but show that you really do not have any clue about game balance. Now, I can see calling eldritch glaive overpowered (I still disagree, but at least there are some valid arguments for it), or saying that eldritch blast doesn't fit with your idea of magic, but the baseline eldritch blast is, if anything, underpowered. It doesn't even get full sneak attack progression, as it stops at 9d6 where sneak attack goes to 10d6.
Unless the Warlock takes eldritch glaive, it is pretty much impossible for him to become the primary damage dealer. At level 1, he does an average of 3.5 damage per attack, and isn't even as likely as the Fighter to hit (and the Fighter is going to do 3-4 times more damage per hit). His chance to hit goes up as he levels, since the target AC is relatively static, but his damage increases much, much more slowly than any other class's. A Warlock will never be the primary damage dealer of the party unless the party contains no full or medium BAB class.
Elghinn, had you given thought to tying the eldritch blast to an ability score, and adding the mod to damage? That might take out some of the suckage at higher levels...CHA would probably fit.
EDIT: You prolly wouldn't want this at lower levels...ranged touch attacks doing 1d6 + CHA might be a bit much...but later it might fit like:
Added punch (Ex): Starting at x level, the Warlock adds his Cha mod to his eldritch blast damage. This damage bonus is doubled on a sucessful critical hit.EDIT 2: Just thought of another idea...
What about giving them the equivalent of the opposite of the Arcane Blast feat, that would allow them to convert their eldritch blast into a non-damaging spell of a level equal to half its strength. Like for instance a Warlock with a 6d6 EB can convert it to a 3rd level arcane "utility" spell...highest they'd ever get would be 5th level effects...using their Warlock level as caster level...I like these ideas.
Also, what books are metamagic feats for SLA's from?
Thanks! I enjoy brainstorming on stuff like this.
I think those are monster feats, tbh.
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Here is the flaw in your argument, as I see it.His argument is perfectly fine. Flanking is absurdly easy to get. A rogue that cannot sneak attack on at least 90% of his attacks over the life of his career is being played by a moron or being played in a solo campaign.
Like I said before, I only have my own experience to draaw from and in the campaigns I have played in or run we usually end up fighting a swarm of monsters. If you have four characters in your party and are fighting five orcs and you are first level you have to way the cost/benefits of flanking with the rogue. Of course the benefit is that you get the orcs finished off quicker. The cost is that you free up two orcs to flank your party instead of just one.
Calling eldritch blast overpowered does nothing but show that you really do not have any clue about game balance. Now, I can see calling eldritch glaive overpowered (I still disagree, but at least there are some valid arguments for it), or saying that eldritch blast doesn't fit with your idea of magic, but the baseline eldritch blast is, if anything, underpowered. It doesn't even get full sneak attack progression, as it stops at 9d6 where sneak attack goes to 10d6.
Unless the Warlock takes eldritch glaive, it is pretty much impossible for him to become the primary damage dealer. At level 1, he does an average of 3.5 damage per attack, and isn't even as likely as the Fighter to hit (and the Fighter is going to do 3-4 times more damage per hit). His chance to hit goes up as he levels, since the target AC is relatively static, but his damage increases much, much more slowly than any other class's. A Warlock will never be the primary damage dealer of the party unless the party contains no full or medium BAB class.
I have already agreed that damage wise the warlock is underpowered. Why are you still trying to argue a point that we agree on? Where I find the warlock to have an advantage over other classes like fighter or rogue, particularly at lower levels is that eldritch blast is an at will ranged touch attack. Particularly at low levels, and even with some higher level monsters the touch AC is ridiculously low compared to the AC that a fighter or a rogue would have to hit. For example, the troglodyte, a first level monster, has an AC and a flat footed AC of 15. That is what the fighter or rogue is going to have to hit. Assuming a 16 Str or Dex, that means that they have to roll a 12 or better for the rogue and an 11 or better for the fighter. However, it has a touch AC of 9 which means that the warlock who has the same 16 Dex as the rogue only has to roll a 6 or better to hit. At 10th level it becomes less of a disparity because the Fighter now has +10 and should have at least a +2 weapon by now, and the rogue is in the same boat weapon wise and has a +7 to hit, but they are still shooting to hit AC 22 or flat footed 21 against a young red dragon, where the warlock is trying to hit touch 10. Plus the warlock has the advantage of being out of the dragon's reach and the range of the dragon's breath weapon. Sure the warlock isn't dealing as much damage as the fighter or the rogue, but he has a better chance of hitting and is more likely to stay alive to inflict that damage. Once again I agree that the damage sucks, but the fact that eldritch blast is a ranged touch attack makes up for it.
For one thing, your stats are a little shoddy. The Bestiary states that the target AC for a CR 1 enemy is 12. Most CR 1 enemies also are neither large nor have a dex penalty, so their touch AC isn't going to be less than 10 (and in fact is frequently at or near their total AC). They're also ranged attacks, which means there's a -4 penalty for firing into melee and frequently a -4 penalty for shooting through soft cover.
Secondly, you're ignoring that eldritch blast has other downsides that compensate for being a touch attack. First, firing an eldritch blast provokes AoOs in two different ways (being a SLA and being a ranged attack); under some interpretations of the rules, it provokes two separate AoOs. Second, eldritch blast requires an attack roll and a spell resistance check.
Third, your Fighter and Rogue suck. Seriously, +10 to hit at level 10? A level 10 Fighter should have at least a +21 to hit on his first attack (10 BAB, +5 strength absolute minimum, +2 weapon, +2 weapon training, +2 weapon focus). That means he misses that dragon all of 5% of the time. The Warlock also misses 5% of the time. Where's the difference here? Oh yeah, the Fighter hits a hell of a lot harder: 2d6 (greatsword) + 2d6 (vital strike) + 7 (strength) + 2 (weapon) + 2 (weapon training) + 2 (weapon specialization) = 27 average damage with a 19-20 crit range vs the Warlock's 5d6 = 17.5 average damage with crits only on natural 20s.
People keep bringing it up, but is "finding a flank" really that difficult of an issue? Between the other melee classes, the summons, the class pets, etc, etc, there's a million ways to get a flanking buddy.
Even beyond that there's even more ways to get make an enemy flatfooted.
The warlock's damage is only "awesome" at level one. As soon as the rogue gets a second attack - which could be level 2 or 3, quite frankly - he's out-damaging the warlock consistently.
d6's aren't that big of a deal.
not to mention at 5th level a wizard would have fireball. 5d6 damage over a area of effect with fire. Sure it's limited, but it blows Eldrich Blast out of the water.
I'm working on a conversion at the moment, keeping it as close to the 3.5 version as possible, but making it, it's own class. I've upped the HD so it's d8 not d6 and other changes that relate to the changes of similar classes
Bard 3.5 = Bard PAthfinder
Sorcorerer 3.5 = Sorcorerer Pathfinder
I've added a few invocations to replace the ones that relate to spells in Complete Arcane, using ones from the APG. Here's what I've come up with so far:
LEAST INVOCATIONS
Demonic Wink: Works like Burning Gaze.
Lights out: Words like Dust of Twilight but can also be used for putting out fires.
LESSER INVOCATIONS
Blood Biography: Like the spell
Okay how many fireballs can a 5th level wizard cast per day?
not to mention at 5th level a wizard would have fireball. 5d6 damage over a area of effect with fire. Sure it's limited, but it blows Eldrich Blast out of the water.
I admit it, you got me there. I realise how stupid that was when I wrote it...
I still don't believe Eldrich Blast is overpowered though with it's uses nor it's damage.
Okay how many fireballs can a 5th level wizard cast per day?
not to mention at 5th level a wizard would have fireball. 5d6 damage over a area of effect with fire. Sure it's limited, but it blows Eldrich Blast out of the water.
None, because it's not a good spell.
So congrats Warlock, you can cast a single target spell that does less damage then one of the wizard's weaker spells, only theirs also hits an area ;p
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Thanks for the shoutout CK. Please feel free to post any thoughts or observations. I welcome the feedback.Check out this warlock class that I found.
Skipping most of the intervening BS, perhaps in the level range of 7 or 8 the Hellfire should move up to d8s? That increases the damage, just a little and it's still hitting Touch Ac, which is nearly a guaranteed hit every shot, except maybe on the fighter wearing magical Heavy Armor.
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Skipping most of the intervening BS, perhaps in the level range of 7 or 8 the Hellfire should move up to d8s? That increases the damage, just a little and it's still hitting Touch Ac, which is nearly a guaranteed hit every shot, except maybe on the fighter wearing magical Heavy Armor.Thanks for the shoutout CK. Please feel free to post any thoughts or observations. I welcome the feedback.Check out this warlock class that I found.
That's a good idea. I will play with it and see how it works out.
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So congrats Warlock, you can cast a single target spell that does less damage then one of the wizard's weaker spells, only theirs also hits an area ;p
Yeah, but he can do it 14,400 times per day. How many times per day can your wizard cast his most powerful spell? Hell, how many times per day can your wizard cast ANY non-cantrip spell ?
Here's a hint: Vastly less than 14,400.
Skipping most of the intervening BS, perhaps in the level range of 7 or 8 the Hellfire should move up to d8s? That increases the damage, just a little and it's still hitting Touch Ac, which is nearly a guaranteed hit every shot, except maybe on the fighter wearing magical Heavy Armor.Thanks for the shoutout CK. Please feel free to post any thoughts or observations. I welcome the feedback.Check out this warlock class that I found.
Nice idea. Definantly something I should consider writing down as the problem with the 3.5 class is that you don't get anything major for staying in the class like you do for the other classes.
So congrats Warlock, you can cast a single target spell that does less damage then one of the wizard's weaker spells, only theirs also hits an area ;pYeah, but he can do it 14,400 times per day. How many times per day can your wizard cast his most powerful spell? Hell, how many times per day can your wizard cast ANY non-cantrip spell ?
Here's a hint: Vastly less than 14,400.
How many times do you get into 14,400 combats a day?
Here's a hint: Never.
So congrats Warlock, you can cast a single target spell that does less damage then one of the wizard's weaker spells, only theirs also hits an area ;pYeah, but he can do it 14,400 times per day. How many times per day can your wizard cast his most powerful spell? Hell, how many times per day can your wizard cast ANY non-cantrip spell ?
Here's a hint: Vastly less than 14,400.
How many times do you get into 14,400 combats a day?
Here's a hint: Never.
I do see his point though. Warlocks are unlimited in their Eldrich Blasts yet Wizards have spell slots just as other spell casters do, yet it is true that most groups don't get into several fights in the same session, but it would depends on DMs, yet I would think most DMs wouldn't organise that many fights in a single day.
Warlocks are very limited with their Invocations though. More so than even a Sorcorer and some of their powers are entirely unique to the class.
not to mention at 5th level a wizard would have fireball. 5d6 damage over a area of effect with fire. Sure it's limited, but it blows Eldrich Blast out of the water.People keep bringing it up, but is "finding a flank" really that difficult of an issue? Between the other melee classes, the summons, the class pets, etc, etc, there's a million ways to get a flanking buddy.
Even beyond that there's even more ways to get make an enemy flatfooted.
The warlock's damage is only "awesome" at level one. As soon as the rogue gets a second attack - which could be level 2 or 3, quite frankly - he's out-damaging the warlock consistently.
d6's aren't that big of a deal.
Their are a few minor changes that we use with warlock that worked well.
First change the blast from SLA to supernatural.
Secondly to address the fighter doing more damage you also have to take in account for shapes and essences by adding the eldritch chain a fighter could not attack up to 5 targets 30ft away i.e. (chain lighting style) and by adding essences it also changes the damage dealt as well as other effects. You talk about the eldritch provoking an AoO take a five foot step back or cast it defensively.
So congrats Warlock, you can cast a single target spell that does less damage then one of the wizard's weaker spells, only theirs also hits an area ;pYeah, but he can do it 14,400 times per day. How many times per day can your wizard cast his most powerful spell? Hell, how many times per day can your wizard cast ANY non-cantrip spell ?
Here's a hint: Vastly less than 14,400.
How many times do you get into 14,400 combats a day?
Here's a hint: Never.
I do see his point though. Warlocks are unlimited in their Eldrich Blasts yet Wizards have spell slots just as other spell casters do, yet it is true that most groups don't get into several fights in the same session, but it would depends on DMs, yet I would think most DMs wouldn't organise that many fights in a single day.
Warlocks are very limited with their Invocations though. More so than even a Sorcorer and some of their powers are entirely unique to the class.
Their point is nonensical though.
For starters, the comparison is to one of the worst spells the wizard has, and the wizard is already doing better.
Second, until you hit level 11, that worst spell still scales better and faster.
Third, spell slots ain't no thing. Wizards have only so many third level spell slots...and then they have their second level spell slots which all scale to his level...and then they have their first level spell slots which all scale to his level.
Wizards hitting "empty" is something that doesn't really happen at higher levels.
not to mention at 5th level a wizard would have fireball. 5d6 damage over a area of effect with fire. Sure it's limited, but it blows Eldrich Blast out of the water.People keep bringing it up, but is "finding a flank" really that difficult of an issue? Between the other melee classes, the summons, the class pets, etc, etc, there's a million ways to get a flanking buddy.
Even beyond that there's even more ways to get make an enemy flatfooted.
The warlock's damage is only "awesome" at level one. As soon as the rogue gets a second attack - which could be level 2 or 3, quite frankly - he's out-damaging the warlock consistently.
d6's aren't that big of a deal.
Their are a few minor changes that we use with warlock that worked well.
First change the blast from SLA to supernatural.
Secondly to address the fighter doing more damage you also have to take in account for shapes and essences by adding the eldritch chain a fighter could not attack up to 5 targets 30ft away i.e. (chain lighting style) and by adding essences it also changes the damage dealt as well as other effects. You talk about the eldritch provoking an AoO take a five foot step back or cast it defensively.
Definantly like the ideas there. I've now changed it to supernatural.
This way if someone takes the Mellee path they don't incur a AoO when putting it into a weapon I think.
Personally, I've never experienced any overpowering of the Complete Arcane Warlock class. The eldritch blast is nice as an at-will power but their pitiful BAB makes them hit far less at low levels of play. Say a level 1 Warlock with a moderately high Dex of 16 (+3) is STILL gonna have to roll on averge over a 10 to hit a creature's touch AC. And that attack is going to do a whopping 1d6 dmg. Very lackluster.
In my games I've allowed for a feat to incrase the d6's to d8's and I've debated giving them an average BAB (3/4 progression like a cleric).
I think the main problem with the Warlock is that it doesn't fit nicely into a role. It doesn't have the skills or ranks to be a skill monkey. It can't tank very well. And it's invocations aren't nearly as powerful or versatile as the wizard/sorcerer. So what's its catch? I feel it should do lots of damage. By making it's BAB 3/4, incresing it's eldritch blast to d8's makes it very formiddable againsts single targets. Other feats allow it to wade into combat (on occasion, when the occasion is warrented). Firepower is it's namesake and it should excell here. In additon to the big damage, they should use their invocations for utility and maybe augmenting their eldritch blast.
Also, the prestige class Eldritch Disciple is really good as they can use their Eldritch blast to heal allies and gain some nifty benefits with attacks/damage and some other uses of their EB.
Personally, I've never experienced any overpowering of the Complete Arcane Warlock class. The eldritch blast is nice as an at-will power but their pitiful BAB makes them hit far less at low levels of play. Say a level 1 Warlock with a moderately high Dex of 16 (+3) is STILL gonna have to roll on averge over a 10 to hit a creature's touch AC. And that attack is going to do a whopping 1d6 dmg. Very lackluster.
In my games I've allowed for a feat to incrase the d6's to d8's and I've debated giving them an average BAB (3/4 progression like a cleric).
...the warlock already has average BAB.
...the warlock already has average BAB.
Well I'll be damned, your right! My mistake. So that up's it's power-creep a bit and I still think a feat for increasing the Eldritch Blast to d8's is a good idea.
