Here is the Detect Magic spell description for reference.
School divination; Level bard 0, cleric 0, druid 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Component: V, S
Range 60 ft.
Area cone-shaped emanation
Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.
Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
Lingering Aura: A magical aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a magic item). If detect magic is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:
Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura
Faint 1d6 rounds
Moderate 1d6 minutes
Strong 1d6 × 10 minutes
Overwhelming 1d6 days
Outsiders and elementals are not magical in themselves, but if they are summoned, the conjuration spell registers. Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Detect magic can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Detect Magic Spell or Object Aura Power
Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming
Functioning spell (spell level) 3rd or lower 4th–6th 7th–9th 10th+ (deity-level)
Magic item (caster level) 5th or lower 6th–11th 12th–20th 21st+ (artifact)
Does anyone know of either an official ruling (from 3.5 or Pathfinder), or a textual reason why Detect Magic can't sense Magical Traps and/or magically Invisible creatures? It makes little sense to me that a cantrip should do either, but I don't see anything in the text that prevents it.
I house ruled in 3.5 games that you can't detect the magic aura of anything you can't already see, but that is not in the text at all.
P.S. If any of the Paizo staff want to weigh in on this issue, I would welcome it.
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I think that round 1 you would detect the presence of an aura. Round 2 it will tell you how strong the most powerful aura you detect is and how many. Round 3 you can specify the strength of specific auras as well as their location (most likely down to a 5ft square). Then you could make a Knowledge (Arcana) to -splorch- killed by sneak attack.
Does anyone know of either an official ruling (from 3.5 or Pathfinder), or a textual reason why Detect Magic can't sense Magical Traps and/or magically Invisible creatures? It makes little sense to me that a cantrip should do either, but I don't see anything in the text that prevents it.
I house ruled in 3.5 games that you can't detect the magic aura of anything you can't already see, but that is not in the text at all.
P.S. If any of the Paizo staff want to weigh in on this issue, I would welcome it.
Rules as written, no theres nothing that says you cant detect them. There have been many exchanges about how a cantrip can overcome much higher level spells.
I think your house rule is an ok one. I have been looking at ways to manage the detect spells now that they are infinate uses a day. I was thinking about changing them from a cone to maybe just a targeted 5ft square. If the wizard wants to look at the door to see if there are traps, fine, but he cant do the whole room at once.
I think we need a sticky for this topic.
I want a sticky for this one and for Shield Mastery
Here is the Detect Magic spell description for reference.
** spoiler omitted **
... Does anyone know of either an official ruling (from 3.5 or Pathfinder), or a textual reason why Detect Magic can't sense Magical Traps and/or magically Invisible creatures? It makes little sense to me that a cantrip should do either, but I don't see anything in the text that prevents it.I house ruled in 3.5 games that you can't detect the magic aura of anything you can't already see, but that is not in the text at all.
P.S. If any of the Paizo staff want to weigh in on this issue, I would welcome it.
Fist things Fist a magic trap builder that did not use non-detection on their trap is a nutter... that's a simple and easy way to get rid of the aura. another is to place the alarm spell or the base of the trigger spell out of Line of sight, but still in line of effect ex... in a nich below a stair riser facing away from the players.
as for invisibility their is nothing to see so how would you see the objects aura
Agreed on the use of nondetection, but this should up the CR of the trap.
Strongly disagree on magical traps that detect the characters and activate before the players have any chance whatsoever of disabling them. This is, in my opinion, abusive. If the players have no chance to detect and disable then it isn't a trap.
Agreed on the use of nondetection, but this should up the CR of the trap.
Strongly disagree on magical traps that detect the characters and activate before the players have any chance whatsoever of disabling them. This is, in my opinion, abusive. If the players have no chance to detect and disable then it isn't a trap.
i did not mean to imply that the party could not detect them but to imply that they would have to do real searching to find them .ex the niched stairs could easy be found and even has a logical reason why the party rogue would pick it up by trap seance ( ex the stair seams to have a hollow sound)
My apologies. I thought you meant that they would trigger the alarm portion of the spell before they could even see the trigger or have a chance to disarm it.
Magic Aura spell (1st lvl) can be built into traps, and Nondetection can be cast on someone who wants to lower his chances of being detected by the aura of his Invisibility spell. I just think that these extra steps shouldn't be necessary, and that RAW Detect Magic is way too powerful. Even a target with both Invisibility and Nondetection cast on it, can be detected - the target simply gains SR vs detection.
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Magic Aura spell (1st lvl) can be built into traps, and Nondetection can be cast on someone who wants to lower his chances of being detected by the aura of his Invisibility spell. I just think that these extra steps shouldn't be necessary, and that RAW Detect Magic is way too powerful. Even a target with both Invisibility and Nondetection cast on it, can be detected - the target simply gains SR vs detection.
Did you miss the part that the detect magic spell requires both concentration AND 3 rounds to have that effect, and that once you stop concentrating it resets and needs to be recast?
This basically means that the opponent has 3 rounds to hit you and interrupt you, and if they fail then they *MIGHT* get hit by the one time you can attack the square you saw them in (with 50% miss chance), then you start it over.To be honest, I don't think this is a problem at all. If the wizard can survive 3 rounds of being attacked willy-nilly by an opponent just to get one attack off, then they're showing off, not fighting.
I think that the effect you're thinking of is Arcane Sight (see magic auras instantly, no concentration, 120ft cone) which does indeed pose a problem for the invisible person who doesn't also have non-detection.
Arcane Sight is a third level spell, though. Much harder to cast.
So, I take it that you are fine with having Detect Magix work on traps that don't mention Magic Aura in the trap description?
How do you deal with characters who (according to a player) are always Detecting Magic, when not in combat?
Granted 3 rounds is long enough time for an invisible enemy to close and attack, but why assume that something that is Invisisble wants to attack? What if it simply wants to hide?
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So, I take it that you are fine with having Detect Magix work on traps that don't mention Magic Aura in the trap description?
How do you deal with characters who (according to a player) are always Detecting Magic, when not in combat?
Granted 3 rounds is long enough time for an invisible enemy to close and attack, but why assume that something that is Invisisble wants to attack? What if it simply wants to hide?
Make them go back through the 3 rounds every time they move to a new location, since they have to "hone in" on different auras (the spell description requires this anyway), and keep in mind how long it takes to find those auras.
The only thing that they might be able to tell in round 1 is whether there is magic or not (not useful in a regular party which has magic items). Also, invisibility is a rather weak aura meaning that ANY magic item registers just as high as it does so you'd actually have to concentrate all the way to the third round to discover anything is amiss (unless the wizard had a very good count, in which case you freak them out by having a magic item on the player "happen" to fall in/outside the cone inappropriately on occasion).Finally, they have to scan 4 times if they wish to have a 360 degree arc (as each one only covers a 90 degree 60ft cone). This means that to scan everywhere fully requires TWELVE rounds of concentrating. I know of no group willing to travel at a rate of 5-10ft per round just so that they can catch that one random invisible guy they happen to walk by on the road. This isn't to mention the fact that the invisible guy can just move when he sees the wizard concentrate on an area.
If you have that big of a problem with it, and the other players don't mind the slow travel, just throw myriads of random encounters at them of creatures that heard the castings of detect magic and wanted an easy meal. After about the third or fourth day straight with 6 encounters, they'll get the point.
Anyway, (and I apologize if I sounded hostile) I think this is more of a matter of smacking the player with the big fat "don't slow the F#!$#*% game down!" DM stick. Any player that objects to that for this case is most likely not worth playing with.
Quick disagreement with StabbittyDoom on a point:
IF the players are in a situation where no one has the means to see invisibility (for example they are around level 5 and didn't prepare the slot that day or have expended it... rather easy at low level) and are in a room where they can get the entire room and are willing to wait the three rounds to try and pinpoint the invisible villian (presumably that's been attacking them or the like) then let them use it.
After all it's not even close to being on par with any other means of seeing the invisible (see invisibility is much better as is glitterdust...) and still leaves the 50% miss chance and is tying down the spell caster for three rounds. This could actually allow the game to progress quicker since the fighters aren't targeting random squares and attacking them without any clue if it's going to be effective.
However it is going to take a lot of time, and there should be some consequence for the time spent detecting magic all the time.
You might want to point out just how good of a spell see invisibility really is. It lasts 10 min/ level which is generally good enough to walk through a 'dungeon' and last through all the encounters and would let them see ethereal monsters as well, meaning they won't be surprised by ghosts and the like.
I don't see a problem either. Simply half the speed the group is travelling at, since the Wizard can't whistle while having flour in his mouth...or in this case can't walk as fast without falling.
I'm running a campaign where the wizard always does the magic scan in a new room, if he gets the time, and it hasn't ruined anything yet.
Personally, I hate the detect magic spell. While playing a politition, I had times where I hired a mage to have detect magic up for whole meetings. It meant that no invisible people could eaves drop, and anyone with magic gear couldn't even mundanely sneak arround. Doesn't matter how good your stealth is, if you have a +1 item on you they know you just came up to the other side of the wall. If they want to attack, let them. Then they are no longer a spy but an assassin, and are much easier to deal with.
Its the out of combat implications of the spell that are broken, not the in combat ones.
I believe that any illusion that affects you sight should affect detect magic, but thats my opinion, not official.
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I'd just like to clarify that my last post was about the idea of a player saying they are using Detect Magic at all times (other than sleeping), not about its combat uses.
I have been in several sessions of 3.5/Pathfinder where it was standard for a character to activate detect magic to quickly scan a room (though in combat? Never, but we don't deal with invisible people much).
Oh, fun exercise, try staring in one direction for 18 seconds straight (count it out). It's actually a decent amount of time.
Add me to the list of people who think Detect Magic is too powerful... especially as an infinite use ability. As soon as someone realizes they can do it all day their next words are "Mr. DM, unless I say otherwise, assume I am detecting magic at all times, ok?" If the party is not on a clock in a dungeon then the mage is constantly detecting magic and the rogue is searching every square for traps. Gets a bit tedious.
I do like the idea that you need to be able to see something to detect magic on it, but then that too has problems.
Maybe if it just worked like this...
Detect Magic
School: divination; Level bard 1, cleric 1, druid 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Component: V, S
Area: 30' radius emanation from you
Duration: 24 hours
Effect:
You make an automatic (free) concentration check anytime a magic item, ongoing spell, or spell-like-effect, enters the area of effect. The first check is automatic and requires no action. Intentional checks are made as standard actions. When intentionally focusing and searching for effects you add your relevant ability bonus to the concentration check instead of once.
Concentration Check:
1d20+level+(ability modifier) for free
1d20+level+(ability modifier x2) as a standard action
Free Check (assuming 3,4,5,6 ability mods)
1 1d20+1+3= 5-24
5 1d20+5+4= 10-29
10 1d20+10+5= 16-35
20 1d20+20+6= 27-46
Standard Check Range (assuming 3,4,5,6 ability mods)
1 1d20+1+6= 8-27
5 1d20+5+8= 14-33
10 1d20+10+10= 21-40
20 1d20+20+12= 33-52
The DC to detect a spell or item depends on its aura strength:
Aura Strength, DC
Faint, 20
Moderate, 15
Strong, 10
Overwhelming, 5
Each time you successfully detect an aura you gain additional information.
Detection #, Information
1, Presence or absence of magical auras.
2, Number of different magical auras.
3, Power of the most potent aura.
4, Strength and location of each aura.
5+, If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana if arcane magic, or religion if divine) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras. Modifiers to the DC's may apply at DM discretion.
Magic Traps: Spells that function as magical traps have less than a faint aura, and the DC to detect a magic trap is 30+the spell level of the spells in place on the trap.
Obviously the numbers might need to be juggled around a bit but I think you get the point. A first level spell that is always on, detects all around you, and gives you a free chance to detect something magical whenever you come near something magical. If something "pings" on your radar you can stop and try to focus in on things. Maybe gain a bonus or something when you do. Traps are harder (but not impossible) to detect and the aura strength is still used.
With this mechanic, if an invisible creature enters the area of effect of a spellcaster who has an ongoing detect magic in place, the spellcaster gets a free concentration check to notice a magic aura has entered the area. If he does not make this check he won't purposely make further checks to clarify strength or location, though he will still get a free check every round the invisible creature remains within his area of effect. This encourages the invisible creature to get in and get out quickly else he get picked up on radar.
Just my idea.
Just have the character with perma detect magic encounter "Overwhelming" auras from time to time and he'll think twice about having it on 24/7.
Not to mention, what, are you going through your day continually casting a spell with somatic and verbal components? Your arms and vocal chords would get freaking tired after awhile. You're the DM... enforce that stuff.
Detect magic is absolutely useless for pinpointing any mobile invisible object. You can discover that there is something mobile and invisible in the area (concentrate on an area, detect the presence of auras, next round there are no auras present), but it's basically impossible to actually find any invisible creatures with it.
As for magical traps, don't forget the rules for how much material detect spells penetrate. Even a thin coating of lead foils it, and it doesn't take much stone either.
Telling a player "you are fatigued from casting spells over and over" is, to me, kinda lame. I suspect you might get punched in the face also lol
Detect magic is absolutely useless for pinpointing any mobile invisible object. You can discover that there is something mobile and invisible in the area (concentrate on an area, detect the presence of auras, next round there are no auras present), but it's basically impossible to actually find any invisible creatures with it.
If the moving invisible creature continues to move within the area of the detect magic spell you certainly can hone in on it. Not to mention, invisible bob is not going to know where the mage is detecting so he might just randomly remain in the area of effect. That's not even mentioning a scenario where the entire area in question fits in the area of effect (a 60' cone is a large area... fills entire hallways and even many entire rooms in common dungeons/caves etc).
As for magical traps, don't forget the rules for how much material detect spells penetrate. Even a thin coating of lead foils it, and it doesn't take much stone either.
This is why I don't have all my NPC rogues dipping their traps in molten lead. Come on now. Really? Do other DM's really do that?
Telling a player "you are fatigued from casting spells over and over" is, to me, kinda lame. I suspect you might get punched in the face also lol
unless using the 3.5 unearthed arcana spell point variant ofc. Then its alot more justified.
As for magical traps, don't forget the rules for how much material detect spells penetrate. Even a thin coating of lead foils it, and it doesn't take much stone either.This is why I don't have all my NPC rogues dipping their traps in molten lead. Come on now. Really? Do other DM's really do that?
Actually in a world where mages can easily spot magical traps with a cantrip, it would be very true, or real for them to take as many precautions against it as they could. But it definately shifts certain conceptions about the fantasy world.
In the glossary, under the description of the invisible condition, it states that
"Invisibility does not thwart divination spells.
This doesn't mean that other things can prevent detect magic from working. Magic traps, for instance, could have a layer of lead over their magic parts and are usually just plain hidden, still requiring a Perception check to discover.
Also, remember that detect magic requires concentration to maintain, which is a standard action every round.. so just having the spell up while walking around limits the character's actions rather substantially unless the spell has been made permanent... in which case your characters are higher level anyways so its benefits aren't that big of a deal.
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I like that detect magic helps low level characters deal with invisibility and hidden things.
I would let it pin point the 5' square (if you've concentrated and its standing still), but not the actual person or thing unless you can see it.
As for continually casting it all day...OK, so you're telling me that unless you say otherwise, you only have move actions. OK. I wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as he told me what direction the 30' cone was in each round. Once he's done something else or doesn't indicate a direction, then the concentration would "reset."
Continually casting like that is ridiculous. I can see it occasionally done for specific reasons, such as if you are helping craft. (I've cast guidance on another crafter, once a minute for 8 hours. The character owed me for that!)
Actually in a world where mages can easily spot magical traps with a cantrip, it would be very true, or real for them to take as many precautions against it as they could. But it definately shifts certain conceptions about the fantasy world.
Yes, in my campaign worlds, rogues do not (generally) go around dipping their traps in molten lead. Maybe high level mages might investigate doing that for their "safe-house" lair but generally, common rogues are damn sure not going around with a blob of lead and a blow torch and melting lead over their traps. If they do in your campaign worlds, more power to ya.
If the moving invisible creature continues to move within the area of the detect magic spell you certainly can hone in on it.
Yes, because the invisible creature is really going to stay in a 60' cone area directly in front of the spellcaster for 18 seconds straight.
Not to mention, invisible bob is not going to know where the mage is detecting so he might just randomly remain in the area of effect.
Incorrect. The mage has to be looking in the direction he's scanning. Stay out of the 90' arc in front of the mage and you're safe.
This is why I don't have all my NPC rogues dipping their traps in molten lead. Come on now. Really? Do other DM's really do that?
Who said anything about dipping traps in lead, or hiding all traps? Stop putting words in my mouth. It weakens your argument and irritates me.
Nooooooo, not this thread again :). I will try to find the link to the old one. I really have to much free time.
Actually in a world where mages can easily spot magical traps with a cantrip, it would be very true, or real for them to take as many precautions against it as they could. But it definately shifts certain conceptions about the fantasy world.Yes, in my campaign worlds, rogues do not (generally) go around dipping their traps in molten lead. Maybe high level mages might investigate doing that for their "safe-house" lair but generally, common rogues are damn sure not going around with a blob of lead and a blow torch and melting lead over their traps. If they do in your campaign worlds, more power to ya.
In my world they are more likely to try to use masonry or some of the other materials that block detects then a lead sheet. Though I'd probably throw that in for the Big Bad Evil Guy's lair. I am just saying that in an organic world that reacts to what different classes can do, the fact that detect magic is not a cantrip would likely have an impact on trapmakers.
Yes, because the invisible creature is really going to stay in a 60' cone area directly in front of the spellcaster for 18 seconds straight.
There's no such thing as "directly in front of the caster", as there is no facing. The player can tell the DM where his cone is, but it doesn't have to have anything to do with which direction he imagines his character is looking.
Incorrect. The mage has to be looking in the direction he's scanning. Stay out of the 90' arc in front of the mage and you're safe.
There's no facing in 3.x or Pathfinder.
Who said anything about dipping traps in lead,
Even a thin coating of lead foils it,
Looks like you did? Maybe there are two Zurai's?
...or hiding all traps? Stop putting words in my mouth. It weakens your argument and irritates me.
Of course you never said all traps. And I wasn't trying to single you out so much as simply state that the idea of coating traps in molten lead is patently absurd to me. Ok fine, if its not in your world, I really don't care. I'm just talking about what I view as reasonable for worlds I run. If you don't see coating traps in lead as strange then go to town, coat one or all in lead, it makes no difference to me.
If you are irritated I apologize as I'm just trying to have a civil discussion.
Here is the Detect Magic spell description for reference.
** spoiler omitted **...
To make a long story short on the other thread, that I can't find, we proved it detected the magical aura, but we(most of us) also agreee it might be a bit much for a cantrip, but it was not game breaking.
There's no facing in 3.x or Pathfinder.
There is no facing but cones still have to be pointed in a certain direction. That is the point Zurai was trying to make. Color Spray is an example of this.
Its the out of combat implications of the spell that are broken, not the in combat ones.
I agree 100% with this. Detect Magic is a lousy way of dealing with invisible foes in a combat situation, but just having it as an at will spell for all of the true caster classes, changes things.
Detect Magic works through walls and doors as long as there isn't "1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt" between the caster and the target. The interior walls of my house aren't a foot thick, and they aren't made of stone. A dungeon may have walls thick enough to block it (or may not), but doors less than 3' thick won't block it.
Also as far as Invisible creatures avoiding the 60' cone, it's unclear to me how a creature would know that there was a cone to avoid.
There is no facing but cones still have to be pointed in a certain direction. That is the point Zurai was trying to make. Color Spray is an example of this.
Certainly. However, color spray has an obvious visual effect. Invisible Bob can easily tell where the cone is for color spray. How does he know where the mage is detecting magic? Certainly as a DM you can just Rule-0 it and say "well its obvious that the character is looking down the hallway which direction he is detecting" but there is nothing in the rules which states this as a necessity. Since there is no formal facing there is no way of determining what direction the PC is actually ummm.. facing. With that said, there is no way of knowing where the cone is, by anyone other than the spellcaster player and the DM.
Who said anything about dipping traps in lead,Even a thin coating of lead foils it,Looks like you did? Maybe there are two Zurai's?
How does "even a thin coating of lead" equate to "your rogues dip all of your traps in molten lead"? I didn't say what was coated in lead and, in fact, magical traps are very frequently impossible to coat in lead (how do you cover a spell with lead?) and it's irrelevant for non-magical traps like a rogue would make (since they don't show up on detect magic anyway). Putting in a thin layer of lead in the walls or floors does the job just as effectively. And, I might add, I also specifically pointed out that burying the trap in stone works just as well.
Of course you never said all traps.
Then why are you acting as if I did? I added that single sentence just to point out that there are ways of foiling detect magic if you think it's too powerful. I never gave any conditions ("all traps") for its use or made any judgments on whether it should be used. The fact that you're trying to argue me into a position I do not support is not civil discussion.
Also as far as Invisible creatures avoiding the 60' cone, it's unclear to me how a creature would know that there was a cone to avoid.
<-- what he said.
Also as far as Invisible creatures avoiding the 60' cone, it's unclear to me how a creature would know that there was a cone to avoid.<-- what he said.
Honestly, he doesn't need to know. Simply moving 15' per round without moving parallel to the party will foil 90% of detect magic uses and won't even give you a Stealth penalty.
How does "even a thin coating of lead" equate to "your rogues dip all of your traps in molten lead"? I didn't say what was coated in lead and, in fact, magical traps are very frequently impossible to coat in lead (how do you cover a spell with lead?) and it's irrelevant for non-magical traps like a rogue would make (since they don't show up on detect magic anyway). Putting in a thin layer of lead in the walls or floors does the job just as effectively. And, I might add, I also specifically pointed out that burying the trap in stone works just as well.
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Then why are you acting as if I did? I added that single sentence just to point out that there are ways of foiling detect magic if you think it's too powerful. I never gave any conditions ("all traps") for its use or made any judgments on whether it should be used. The fact that you're trying to argue me into a position I do not support is not civil discussion.
Let's let it go I guess. I'll chalk it up to different DMing styles and leave it at that.. an agree to disagree position I guess.
The only thing I'll say is in response to..
The fact that you're trying to argue me into a position I do not support is not civil discussion.
If that's what I appeared to be doing that was not my intent. When I have a discussion/debate its either to get clarification on the other parties perspective or to argue what I believe to be some inaccuracy in their position. I believe that's generally what an argument is about, maybe not though?
A 60' cone can cover an entire 30' x 30' room (and then some). Let invisible Bob run around the room all he likes. And the vast majority of detect magic uses are likely to be in similar scenarios, in areas easily small enough to fit inside a 60' cone.
A 60' cone can cover an entire 30' x 30' room (and then some). Let invisible Bob run around the room all he likes.
Yes, and Invisible Bob, moving at 15' per round within this 30x30 room, has the three rounds he needs to approach Dave the Mage and full attack him from invisibility, likely killing him. Or use whatever other alpha strike he has. Three rounds is a loooooooong time in D&D. Most of the combats in my games last less than five rounds, including the Bulette-ambush-while-we're-sleeping fight we had last session where most of the party had to waste the first round standing up and moving out of their tents to get LOS on the landsharks.
There is no facing but cones still have to be pointed in a certain direction. That is the point Zurai was trying to make. Color Spray is an example of this.Certainly. However, color spray has an obvious visual effect. Invisible Bob can easily tell where the cone is for color spray. How does he know where the mage is detecting magic? Certainly as a DM you can just Rule-0 it and say "well its obvious that the character is looking down the hallway which direction he is detecting" but there is nothing in the rules which states this as a necessity. Since there is no formal facing there is no way of determining what direction the PC is actually ummm.. facing. With that said, there is no way of knowing where the cone is, by anyone other than the spellcaster player and the DM.
I think its reasonable you could look north and spray south, but even though the rules don't say so its probably assumed the magic comes from the caster's hands, since the game is based off of fantasy. If the caster going to have his hands pointed in a certain direction he will also most likely be looking in that direction. He can't "precisely" know where to focus the cone if he is not looking. Remember, the nonfacing thing is there as an abstraction to make things simple, not to be used as a loophole.
I had a similar thing come up with Detect Evil. Had a Green Hag toying with the party while the Paladin scanned for her. I had her staying out of LOS by remaining submerged in the nearby lake, peeking out. Made an independent Stealth vs. Perception check each round to see if the Paladin made LOS with her, with a large bonus for the concealment.
I rule that most creatures with invisibility know that standing in one place while people look around is no sure mean to stay undetected. With that knowledge, they do the best they can to avoid the problem. Also, I make sure the "detector" gets the information only on his action, and can't "point to a square"; they have to role-play having to describe the location, to add some interest and drama. Last, just because you know it's there doesn't mean you can avoid the penalties to fight an invisible target.
Are they bipedal or quadrapedal? Spell won't tell you that. Are they crouching, do they have a shield? The person who has the detect spell has detected their presence alone, and is just fortunate enough to know which square to swing into.
A 60' cone can cover an entire 30' x 30' room (and then some). Let invisible Bob run around the room all he likes.Yes, and Invisible Bob, moving at 15' per round within this 30x30 room, has the three rounds he needs to approach Dave the Mage and full attack him from invisibility, likely killing him. Or use whatever other alpha strike he has. Three rounds is a loooooooong time in D&D. Most of the combats in my games last less than five rounds, including the Bulette-ambush-while-we're-sleeping fight we had last session where most of the party had to waste the first round standing up and moving out of their tents to get LOS on the landsharks.
Dave the mage is not alone, he has Fred the Fighter with him, standing in front of him. So I imagine a scenario like...
Round 1: Fred stands in doorway with Dave the mage peering over his shoulder. Invisible Bob has no way of knowing what Dave is doing (unless he's going to make a Spellcraft check that is). Dave could be whispering in Fred's ear or just looking around. For that matter, Dave might not even be an obvious wizard. Anyway, in round 1, Dave uses Message (which he's already had cast because why wouldn't you?) to tell Fred "on guard, magic is afoot.") Fred chokes up on his mace and growls while paying close attention to any sounds in the room. Invisible Bob starts to get a wee bit nervous.
Round 2: Dave (again via message spell) tells Fred "One faint aura... I don't see anything so its probably something invisible..." Fred responds to Dave (via message) "Get Twinkletoes (the party rogue) up here." Dave (via message) says to Twinkletoes "Fred needs you up front." Twinkletoes (who is also invisible) Stealths to the front of the line behind Fred and next to Dave. Fred readies an attack "If I detect movement in the room in an area I can reach, I attack it. Invisible Bob, sensing he might be in a bad spot, Stealths up next to Fred, with the plan of Sneaking him next round.
Round 3: Invisible Bob is now right next to Fighter Fred and well within the cone of Dave's Detect Magic. Dave tells Fred (via message) "right next to you, on your left" at which point Fred goes off and cuts poor Bob in half. In the event he fails his miss chance due to the invisibility, now Bob has to decide if he wants to end his invisibility by sneaking Fred. He decides "hells to the no" and moves back into the room to try to get away from Fred. Meanwhile, the wizards got his number now. 3 rounds have elapsed and there's basically nowhere in the room he can't see (maybe corners, but how does Bob know which corners?)
In successive rounds Dave tells Fred that Twinkletoes is going to sneak past him on his right, don't attack if he notices anything. Then, Twinkletoes moves into the room, guided by the wizards detect magic and message spell.
Again, if it doesn't work like that for you, and everything is hunky dory for you, then keep it like it is.
Round 1: Fred stands in doorway with Dave the mage peering over his shoulder.
Then Dave the Mage cannot detect invisibility in the room to either side of the doorway. Invisible Bob isn't stupid and knows this. He moves adjacent to Fighter Fred and against the wall and waits for Dave the Mage to give the all-clear, then ganks him when he moves into the room.
A 60' cone can cover an entire 30' x 30' room (and then some). Let invisible Bob run around the room all he likes.Yes, and Invisible Bob, moving at 15' per round within this 30x30 room, has the three rounds he needs to approach Dave the Mage and full attack him from invisibility, likely killing him. Or use whatever other alpha strike he has. Three rounds is a loooooooong time in D&D. Most of the combats in my games last less than five rounds, including the Bulette-ambush-while-we're-sleeping fight we had last session where most of the party had to waste the first round standing up and moving out of their tents to get LOS on the landsharks.
A. Who says the invisible guy wants to attack. I gave an example of foiling wouldbe eavesdroppers with it.
B. He doesn't need 3 rounds to detect that something is in the room. 2 rounds will tell him how many auras. Seeing 10 auras in a room like many invisible characters will have is a reason to be cautious. If you are stationary and waiting for people to come to you, you will know exactly how many auras are in each dirrection and be able to sweep a room every 90 seconds or so. Think if every group of guards could see PCs comming from 60 ft away with no save or check through walls.
Dave says, "I detect magic in the room"
Dave says, "Wait, now I don't. I wonder what could have happened?!"
Dave tells Fred, "Nevermind, its all clear, I must have been imagining things, go ahead."
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Just to throw my 2 cents in;
why is it absurd that people would use lead to mask the magic aura of their traps, but it's not absurd to assume every party uses Message spells all the time?
I find it equally absurd (as in, genuinely absurd) to think that you can aim your detect cone in any direction other than the one your eyes are facing and expect to detect anything. You might not have glowing eyes, but you sure are looking at something. Maybe not RAW by the strictest sense, but certainly RAI in my opinion.
Round 1: Fred stands in doorway with Dave the mage peering over his shoulder.Then Dave the Mage cannot detect invisibility in the room to either side of the doorway. Invisible Bob isn't stupid and knows this. He moves adjacent to Fighter Fred and against the wall and waits for Dave the Mage to give the all-clear, then ganks him when he moves into the room.
except he can, he just can't do it simultaneously
Think if every group of guards could see PCs comming from 60 ft away with no save or check through walls.
As has been pointed out more than once in this thread, the detect spells do not work through walls. 1 foot of stone stops them.