And that would be wrong, you've increased the challenge (of finding the trap) but the reward stays the same?Only if it's intended that all magical traps be automatically detected. My guess as to the intention of the designers is that magical traps are not intended to be automatically detected. That's why they have Perception DCs.
Thus, removing the auto-detection (which really isn't, but we won't get into that) doesn't change the intended difficulty of the trap and thus should not change the reward for the trap.
The true power of magical traps is that they are very hard to DISABLE.
Disabling magical traps might set them off.
Dispelling magical traps drains resources.
Both are desired results from a design perspective.
back in 2nd edition there used to be a spell protection from cantrips, lasted a good while too ^^ about time we got it back :)
Wow! You are a freaking GENIUS! Anyone have their 2e books on them?
@Cartigan
yes, I do
but at will cantrips are cost free. Getting smacked by a trap isn't
Well, if you give out experience for neither finding NOR disabling a trap, I suppose I won't bothering to going into this in depth with you.
Nondetection is worth CR 2. Warding just to eliminate Detect Magic is not. Hence the homebrew I suggest above.
Increase the CR by 2 for eliminating the use of a 0-level spell?
F that.
Then you clearly do not appreciate the power of nondetection (the spell). Which is too bad, and weakens you position in my view.
It's cr 4: 3rd level spell + 1 that all magical traps get.
Using a CR 4 non detection trap with a CR 4 fireball trap gives you a CR 6 trap.
What you said.
Anyways, grats on poking at my math instead of actually arguing the point.
Do you give out experience for PCs blindly stumbling into traps and setting them off?Yes. You're supposed to. Overcoming the challenge of the trap includes more than just disarming it. Otherwise parties without Rogues would be even more penalized than they already are.
1) I wasn't aware "magic aura" had "THIS IS A TRAP" written all over it.
2) I wasn't aware that magic aura detected non-magical traps.3) I was under the impression that there is now no limit on what traps can be found by whom in Pathfinder.
Note that a command-activated eternal detect magic item is all of 900 gp in 3.5e.
So this isn't exactly a new problem, it's just cheaper now.
Using a CR 4 non detection trap with a CR 4 fireball trap gives you a CR 6 trap.What you said.
Anyways, grats on poking at my math instead of actually arguing the point.
Poor math doesn't help your point.
I also think that people are limiting themselves by only going on about the (perceived) failings of detect magic and not taking into account the bigger picture of game balance and design.
ETA: traps are meant to be found and disabled!
1) I wasn't aware "magic aura" had "THIS IS A TRAP" written all over it.
Nobody's insinuating that. We are saying that, although Detect Dagic isn't Detect Traps, it's way the hell too powerful if it does detect a trap regardless of the group's ability to identify it as such.
2) I wasn't aware that magic aura detected non-magical traps.
This is a silly argument. Stop being silly.
3) I was under the impression that there is now no limit on what traps can be found by whom in Pathfinder.
I don't get the point you're trying to make. Either you're wrong or being ironic. Can't decide. Please elaborate.
Poor math doesn't help your point.
Or you were just elated at being able to be right about SOMETHING at least.
I also think that people are limiting themselves by only going on about the (perceived) failings of detect magic and not taking into account the bigger picture of game balance and design.
Detect Magic, in it's current RAW incarnation, affects negatively on game balance. We can overcome this with good dungeon design as it stands, and I refuse to boost CRs when I do this.
ETA: traps are meant to be found and disabled!
CR 10 traps are not meant to be found by Detect Magic. Maybe RAW says that, but that's bad design.
Detect Magic, in it's current RAW incarnation, affects negatively on game balance. We can overcome this with good dungeon design as it stands,
I just think it is much simpler to go after the bad actor, meaning the cantrip, and gimp it. You can limit what it does, and it will still be more useful than other cantrips.
Poor math doesn't help your point.Or you were just elated at being able to be right about SOMETHING at least.
Mature of you......
I also think that people are limiting themselves by only going on about the (perceived) failings of detect magic and not taking into account the bigger picture of game balance and design.
Detect Magic, in it's current RAW incarnation, affects negatively on game balance. We can overcome this with good dungeon design as it stands, and I refuse to boost CRs when I do this.
detect magic does not disrupt the game.
ETA: traps are meant to be found and disabled!
CR 10 traps are not meant to be found by Detect Magic. Maybe RAW says that, but that's bad design.
detect magic detects the magical energy of a magical CR 10 trap, detect magic does not defeat it. the design goal of a trap is to delay and reduce resources.
Nobody's insinuating that.
Dilvish seemed to be.
We are saying that, although Detect Dagic isn't Detect Traps, it's way the hell too powerful if it does detect a trap regardless of the group's ability to identify it as such.
It detects a magic aura. This may or may not be a trap. I fail to see the problem. If I put a giant box in the middle of a road with a stick holding it up and a magic item inside, is this not a trap because the party can see it? Ok, the group doesn't identify a trap as such after pin-pointing the location of a mysterious aura within a 30' cone and blindly triggers it. Congratulations, they just "defeated" the trap a la Zurai and Delvish. They get experience!
Or is it that they pin-point the trap and disable it after identifying it? Do they not get experience? Wait, this makes no sense!This is a silly argument. Stop being silly.
Only when I see this topic no longer needs such silliness.
I don't get the point you're trying to make. Either you're wrong or being ironic. Can't decide. Please elaborate.
3.5 had a difficulty ceiling on traps that could be found by classes without Trapfinding.
I just think it is much simpler to go after the bad actor, meaning the cantrip, and gimp it. You can limit what it does, and it will still be more useful than other cantrips.
Detect Magic, in it's current RAW incarnation, affects negatively on game balance. We can overcome this with good dungeon design as it stands,
Oh, I agree with you to a point. But I was kinda talking about baseline without dinking with things, good encounter design is the only way around it. You're probably right that just dinking with things would be easier, but you know as well as I that messing with rules can be dangerous.
back in 2nd edition there used to be a spell protection from cantrips, lasted a good while too ^^ about time we got it back :)
Also, back in 2e, cantrips were toys.. trinkets of spells. They specifically did virtually nothing other than extremely simplistic effects and detect magic and light etc were 1st level. I actually prefer cantrips to be near useless other than for out of combat flavor effects, roleplaying things mostly. In combat you might be able to be creative and use one in a pinch but they are not intended for such (or at least weren't originally).
It detects a magic aura. This may or may not be a trap. I fail to see the problem.
I'm not one to go spreading random magic auras around a dungeon.
3.5 had a difficulty ceiling on traps that could be found by classes without Trapfinding.
Okay, now I understand. Because anyone CAN find a trap, doesn't mean they WILL see it (except maybe the rogue with his +hojillion to find traps). Someone casting Detect Magic can point out every magical aura in an are for the Rogue to search and disable.
@ Cartigan
The point of any trap, or any encounter really, is to provide a challenge to the players. They get experience whether they overcome the challenge with finesse (such as finding and disabling a trap), or if they blindly stumble into it and suffer the consequences.
The issue with perpetual Detect Magic, is that finding an aura tells the party that something unusual is there. So they get a chance to go into 'extra cautious' mode, and start reaching into their bag of tricks.
Without perpetual Detect Magic they would probably at least have to make high DC Perception rolls.
1) I wasn't aware "magic aura" had "THIS IS A TRAP" written all over it.
2) I wasn't aware that magic aura detected non-magical traps.
3) I was under the impression that there is now no limit on what traps can be found by whom in Pathfinder.
Yet again with the putting words in my mouth. You're very persistent at that. Care to actually address what I wrote instead of what you made up and attributed to me? Nothing in all of that had anything whatsoever to do with what I actually wrote.
@ Cartigan
The point of any trap, or any encounter really, is to provide a challenge to the players. They get experience whether they overcome the challenge with finesse (such as finding and disabling a trap), or if they blindly stumble into it and suffer the consequences.
Correct -- and explicitly stated by the rules. Encounters (and traps are encounters) grant experience no matter how they are overcome.
Yet again with the putting words in my mouth. You're very persistent at that. Care to actually address what I wrote instead of what you made up and attributed to me? Nothing in all of that had anything whatsoever to do with what I actually wrote.1) I wasn't aware "magic aura" had "THIS IS A TRAP" written all over it.
2) I wasn't aware that magic aura detected non-magical traps.
3) I was under the impression that there is now no limit on what traps can be found by whom in Pathfinder.
He wasn't putting words in your mouth, he was trying to cleverly make points that have no weight. Get it right!
Cast alarm every where, detect magic that smartass. Detect magic shows magic, not the spell. cast continual flame on a rock and bury it magic aura not trap, Mr. Fishy is a fish hole. A third level mage can drive a detect magic trap spotter crazy.
Cast alarm every where, detect magic that smartass. Detect magic shows magic, not the spell. cast continual flame on a rock and bury it magic aura not trap, Mr. Fishy is a fish hole. A thrid level mage can drive a magic hunt trap spotter crazy.
Nice. Mr.Fishy suggests clever dungeon design as a defense against Detect Magic as well. I don't have time for that s!!@.
I'm not one to go spreading random magic auras around a dungeon.
Yet you insist on nerfing Detect Magic because you insist on using a magic-based trap?
Because anyone CAN find a trap, doesn't mean they WILL see it. Someone casting Detect Magic can point out every magical aura in an are for the Rogue to search and disable.
I think the Druid and Cleric have a fairly good shot at seeing a Trap
At any rate, should I explicitly apply Occam's Razor, or can you do this yourself?
I'm not one to go spreading random magic auras around a dungeon.Yet you insist on nerfing Detect Magic because you insist on using a magic-based trap?
Because anyone CAN find a trap, doesn't mean they WILL see it. Someone casting Detect Magic can point out every magical aura in an are for the Rogue to search and disable.I think the Druid and Cleric have a fairly good shot at seeing a Trap
At any rate, should I explicitly apply Occam's Razor, or can you do this yourself?
Occam's razor is a butter knife to my hide, sir.
Let me be clear:
DM MAGIC - All magical traps are intrinsically immune to detect magic. Done and done.
Time? the PC's don't know you just put that there. If they spend 3 hours searching every 5 foot square give them a reason to twitch and cring.
It amazes me how rude some people can be.
My friends and I have often suffered from taking time to do things. Generally, given half of us are in plate mail, the enemies hear us and having a bunch of stuff summoned, buff spells prepared, and so on.
Taking your time can be killer in a dungeon.
Time? the PC's don't know you just put that there. If they spend 3 hours searching every 5 foot square give them a reason to twitch and cring.
I hear you. That's why I love the new Rogue talent for "spotting" traps. I can roll it once when they get in a room, then, if the rogue beats the DC, I just count the number of squares for distance based on how much they beat the DC by. Great ability.
Barring that obvious choice by the Rogue, part of the skills of a group of players is their ability to determine where traps should be. It's an artform to some.
And at the higher levels, detect traps works fine. No reason not to prepare a bunch of those.
My friends and I have often suffered from taking time to do things. Generally, given half of us are in plate mail, the enemies hear us and having a bunch of stuff summoned, buff spells prepared, and so on.
Taking your time can be killer in a dungeon.
+1
Actions have consrquences!
It amazes me how rude some people can be.
It doesn't amaze me.
Taking your time can be killer in a dungeon.
I endorse this statement, but it is situational. There are plenty of times when PCs are at leisure to explore as slowly and methodically as they want to.
Let me be clear:DM MAGIC - All magical traps are intrinsically immune to detect magic. Done and done.
LOL
I endorse this statement, but it is situational. There are plenty of times when PCs are at leisure to explore as slowly and methodically as they want to.
Taking your time can be killer in a dungeon.
Yeah. I'm not a hardass. If they're in a long dungeon and have a room barricaded, I allow taking 20 on every square. It's not a big deal and only takes a second to do. Sometimes I'll let them expand the search because I want to move things along.
DM MAGIC can work in the players' favor as well.
Being careful and being silly are too different things. Most people don't lock the door to the bathroom when their home. If your making a ton of noise traps are the least of your problems trap don't move to flank.
It amazes me how rude some people can be.
I am amazed at the pointlessness of this thread.
It amazes me how rude some people can be.I am amazed at the pointlessness of this thread.
I am amazed by a mote of dust.
Sorry I don't see it as game breaking
I wouldn't call it game-breaking. It just goes against the preconceived notions some DMs have about the way things ought to work.
It amazes me how rude some people can be.I am amazed at the pointlessness of this thread.
I am amazed that people take the time to comment in threads that are pointless.
James:
It's possible in 3.5 by level 2 if you blow all your cash on an item of constant detect magic (command word-activated, 900 gp, maybe 750 gp if you allow constant use spell-trigger items).
Level 3, if you want something else, too.
I am amazed that people take the time to comment in threads that are pointless.It amazes me how rude some people can be.I am amazed at the pointlessness of this thread.
I presumed this was a debate thread not a "I'm doing what I want, everyone look at me!" thread.
I presumed this was a debate thread not a "I'm doing what I want, everyone look at me!" thread.
Then why are you posting a post that is nothing but "I'm doing what I want, everyone look at me!"?
Please stop trolling.
I am amazed that people take the time to comment in threads that are pointless.It amazes me how rude some people can be.I am amazed at the pointlessness of this thread.
I Dunno How You Do What You Do
I'm So In Love With YouIt Just Keeps Getting Better
I Wanna Spend The Rest Of My life
With You By My Side
For Ever and Ever
Every Little Thing That You Do
Baby I'm Amazed By You
Why do these threads always seem to end up like...
Poster A: "I don't like how Rule X works. Here is what I had in mind for how to fix X. What do you people think?
Poster B: "There is nothing wrong with X. I don't know why you can't just leave X alone."
Poster A: "Because I don't like the way X works. Do you have any ideas how to fix X?"
Poster B: "No, because there is nothing wrong with X."
Poster A: "Well then thank you for commenting but obviously we have different ideas of how we like to run our campaigns. Does anyone ELSE have any ideas on how I should fix X?"
Poster B: "I told you, X is fine. Leave it alone."
Poster A: "Dude I thought we were done talking?"
Poster B: "Like I said, it's fine, and obviously you're too stupid to understand how the rules work and like to put words in my mouth."
Poster A: "Huh?"
Poster B: "Yes, and anyone who agrees with you is stupid too. I'd take the time to educate them but they're all stupid."
Poster A: "sigh. I guess I'll just go elsewhere. There's nothing useful here."
Can't Poster B just accept that sometimes people like to change things and by the rules Poster A can do whatever he likes? Better yet, when Poster B reads the thread he can say to himself, "What a pointless thread. Poster A is obviously another idiot. I shan't waste a moment of time on this buffoon." If Poster B did that I think everyone would be happier.
I presumed this was a debate thread not a "I'm doing what I want, everyone look at me!" thread.Then why are you posting a post that is nothing but "I'm doing what I want, everyone look at me!"?
Please stop trolling.
Right after you cease trolling me.
Also, for the same reason the DM Fiat thread no longer has ANYTHING to do with DM Fiat.
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@ Nebelwerfer41- I really don't understand how the 'a PC can only do it if he gives me a reason' scheme is supposed to work. What is wrong with saying "I like to see magical auras"
I generally allow PCs to do things that the rules allow, I would even allow your goofy example of attacking every single square, I just don't think that the other PCs would want to be slowed down by your character, and the party would continue a man short.
The 'scheme' works because the group I play with uses a little bit of common sense when playing an RPG. Honestly, we have never come up against the problem, even in 3.5 with the paladin's Detect Evil at will. Yes, by the rules it is possible, but you would only kick it on when you think that you would need to. We play our characters, not our character's abilities and we want to progress the story, not get bogged down with "standing orders." Yes, every magic user in our group could detect magic at will, but we don't walk around with it on all the time becasue of the reduced movement speed and the fact that you can do nothing else because you're busy concentrating on the spell. Also, it would be very tiresome to recast every time you broke concentration.
BTW, I seriously doubt any of you would put up with the example I gave above. But, as everyone has already mentioned, this would seriusly slow down the party and I would be left in the dust. Detect Magic goggles would work the same way and the character would also be slowed down due to the effort of concentration.
Avoiding the whole lead/house/whatever issue:
1) Detect magic has a conditional duration.
it lasts for "concentration" to a maximum 1 minute per level.
That means if you stop concentrating the spell ends. That means if your PC is actually casting detect magic all the time.. he's casting it all the time. He's also continually concentrating on the spell. This means that each time you do anything other than just concentrate on the spell you have to roll on the chart to determine if you lose the spell.
Now, this doesn't have a punitive effect since the spell can just be recast but it isn't as though the wizard casts the spell and goes about his day with a little "detect'o'meter" going off as needed. he actually has to keep concentrating on the spell or it goes away.
2) By the time you can make the spell permanent (9th level), bypassing Invisibility isn't really a big deal anyway.
Heck, spend twice the gold and just get see invis perma'd on you so yuo can actually *see* the invisible creature instead of "just being aware" that there is some magical aura within the cone.
Afterall- cones go up and down and side to side. If you don't have enough floor or ceiling to block the divination there's really no telling what you will incidentally come across.
3) So far as I can find (please correct me if I'm wrong) the rules do not point out what "concentration" is, in terms of actions. It says you must concentrate to cast spells and it tells you the DC's for how to determine if your spell was interrupted but never actually says if concentrating on a spell round per round is any type of action. Myself, I would think actively concentrating on a spell is at least a move action (just to keep the spell going) and a standard action if you concentrate to actually make use of the spell.. but that's the realm of a houserule more so than RAW or RAI than anything.
And it needs to be a rule. Either a rule that concentrating isn't a discrete action or that it is, and what type.
-S
3) So far as I can find (please correct me if I'm wrong) the rules do not point out what "concentration" is, in terms of actions.
Page 216, under Duration: Concentration:
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Concentration is a standard action every round, so it should halve the caster's movement rate out of combat. And yes, the spell ends if the concentration ceases, but since it is at will, it can always be re-cast.
As far as ruling that casting too many times makes a caster fatigued, it seems like a rational basis for a house rule. It just isn't actually in the rules.
Edit: got ninja'd