If people want to continue to put their head in the sand and ignore whats there then let them.
What!? I can't hear you with all this sand in my ears. In my sand world the fighter is good at skills and the rogue is good at combat and the wizard doesn't render the above two irrelevant at high levels.
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If people want to continue to put their head in the sand and ignore whats there then let them.What!? I can't hear you with all this sand in my ears. In my sand world the fighter is good at skills and the rogue is good at combat and the wizard doesn't render the above two irrelevant at high levels.
My group has never had the above problem so you can't blame it on the system.
And as we all know, anecdotal evidence is the best and most reliable source of information.
My group has never had the above problem so you can't blame it on the system.If people want to continue to put their head in the sand and ignore whats there then let them.What!? I can't hear you with all this sand in my ears. In my sand world the fighter is good at skills and the rogue is good at combat and the wizard doesn't render the above two irrelevant at high levels.
Mine has. I can totally blame it. I've seen it dozens of times.
In my sand world there are no paladin fall threads. Sadly, I hear the thud all the better... Twice as much now with the anti-paladin fall threads.
Yeah, they build flaws into all the classes for balance. Like wizards ability to cast haste is balanced byhaving to cast it on someone who can use it?
Yeah, like summoned creatures! Good thing it affects one person per level so they can still cast it on themselves too. Free movement and dodge bonus and my celestial leopards pounce charge even better!
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Yeah, like summoned creatures! Good thing it affects one person per level so they can still cast it on themselves too. Free movement and dodge bonus and my celestial leopards pounce charge even better!Yeah, they build flaws into all the classes for balance. Like wizards ability to cast haste is balanced byhaving to cast it on someone who can use it?
And what's their damage again?
Edit: Also depending on initiative order, the fighter has already charged and attack and then gotten off a full attack which probably means the creature is either dead or almost.
All done before your summons even gets to do anything.
Super badass right there.
While the leopard is a bad example of a "Super badass summon" (something like maybe 18 damage a round, 27 if Smiting?) , if you're casting Summon Monster 3 the Fighter probably doesn't even HAVE a full attack yet unless he's a TWFer.
You forgot to add in anything from haste. Another example is fly, or invisibility. Which no amount of skill usage is going to come close to without magical items. How is casting any of these a flaw with a balance, which was the point in the first place?
Now, back to anecdotal evidence.
If the fighter is taking out the monster before your second or third turn, why are you casting spells?
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You forgot to add in anything from haste. Another example is fly, or invisibility. Which no amount of skill usage is going to come close to without magical items. How is casting any of these a flaw with a balance, which was the point in the first place?
Now, back to anecdotal evidence.
*yawns*
Seriously?
I'm sorry but adding Haste is like a drop in the bucket.
You do know the fighter can probably fly using his boots or just pull out his bow and let fly.
You do know the fighter can probably fly using his boots or just pull out his bow and let fly.
The example of fly and invisibility were for utility purposes. Not combat. Shooting arrows won't help you get over a cliff, maybe a grappling hook. Its a whole lot slower than flying all day though.
I also said without magic items. Magic items are something anyone can use. They are not solely for the fighter class with his name on it. Boots of flying are relatively expensive depending on the level of your game.
The wizard can also cast spells on the fighter. It is a team game after all.
Summons are awesome, but it takes a lot of them to match the fighter in DPR, but unlike the fighter they are expendable and more portable. Summons are battlefield control spells anyways...
And when he gets over the cliff he can summon some monsters and have a picnic while the rest of his party has to climb anyway, but he better cast haste so everyone can eat before the summon ends.
I knew that extra bite per round would come in hand! NOMNOM turns into NOMNOMNOM!
The wizard can also cast spells on the fighter. It is a team game after all.
Summons are awesome, but it takes a lot of them to match the fighter in DPR, but unlike the fighter they are expendable and more portable. Summons are battlefield control spells anyways...
At later levels you actually can use summon monster for more than battlefield control. You can use it to solve puzzles as more and more outsiders who have a variety of powers become options! Its nifty.
And when he gets over the cliff he can summon some monsters and have a picnic while the rest of his party has to climb anyway, but he better cast haste so everyone can eat before the summon ends.
Do they still have that in pathfinder? In 3.5 you could summon monsters that would use a spell-like to make you dinner.
The main advantage of summons is that they're expendable. A bunch of summons meat shield for you and die, you don't care. The fighter meat shields and dies, that kinda sucks...
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The main advantage of summons is that they're expendable. A bunch of summons meat shield for you and die, you don't care. The fighter meat shields and dies, that kinda sucks...
Most enemies will plow through summons rather easily so while they may be a bit of a speed bump, nothing is really accomplished.
Also, because they take a full round to cast the enemy is usually already on you by the time the casting is complete.
Fighters are a hell of a lot harder to kill.
Also the higher level you go the more trivial summons become.
Also the higher level you go the more trivial summons become.
Because Ponies get more milage than Erinyes or Babau?
Can we go back to fighters out of combat and how useful their skill checks and out of combat class features are?
Yes without a fighter or some other melee class it is very hard to get off a summon. But unless the enemy has a decent spellcraft check no one will gun for the old man mumbling in the back of the party.
Its a team game after all. The fighter will help set up the summons and the wizard will buff the fighter. This last until high levels when the wizard starts off with time stop, summons an outsider hit squad and teleports away laughing. Or slightly lower high levels where the wizard teleports away, summons an outsider hit squad, teleports back in with friends, turns invisible and starts laughing. Meanwhile the fighter tries to get some hits in before Star Swirl the Bearded comes back to end the fight.
Out of combat though this teamwork no longer goes both ways. Wizard can cast fly and invisibility on the fighter. What does the fighter do for the wizard? He can take the first watch while the wizard sleeps or he can kick down a door the wizard doesn't want to waste a spell on. *Whoo*
out of combat class features are?
I don't believe they have those... 2+int skill points is base for a humanoid. Being a fighter doesn't give you out of combat skills, but it does give you room to spend your leveling feats on something other than combat.
out of combat class features are?I don't believe they have those... 2+int skill points is base for a humanoid. Being a fighter doesn't give you out of combat skills, but it does give you room to spend your leveling feats on something other than combat.
Yeah, but those extra feats won't add up to the same number of skill points a 4+ skill point class gets unfortunately. Just the same, casters don't require a feat investment to be great, thought it does help them.
My joke was of course that they don't have out of combat class features. They have what everyone else gets and the lowest number of skills possible.
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I'm always hesitant to play a fighter, because even in Pathfinder I find that I don't have any abilities that allow me to perform out of combat. Anyone have any solutions to shore up a fighter's usefulness out of combat? Any feats that might allow some utility?You can role-play, interact with the environment around your character just like anyone else.
Fighters have interests just like anyone else, they may be more martial in subject matter, but they still have interests. So you can go shopping for a new sword, you can go to a pub or bar, you can try to get hired on as a mercenary or guard somewhere between adventures while your party mage is stuck in a tower researching how to create a new spell. You are ONLY limited by YOUR own imagination on what you can do with any character class. Just because you have few actual skill points, doesn't mean that you are useless, think outside the box my friend.
There are also wondrous opportunities inside a city, that involve combat in the short term but mainly are about increasing your renown, spreading funds, making friends and developing your character.
Two come to mind, old classics:
1) Compete in a tournament. Even if it isn't exactly your thing, give it a go, your bab, ac and hp may set you straight. Make coin, meet other fighters, perhaps get adoration. This must heavily involve gambling. As Quark said, the bigger the risk, the bigger the win!
2) Night raid on the thieves guild or look to get yourself mugged. The former requires a bit of research, but it can be hilarious fun for the fighter all plated-up and ready to go to kick the door in to a pickpocket's den or local rogue toughs safe house with archer/mage support.
http://letusnerd.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/surprisemuthaf%&%a.jpg
Bonus points you bring a party hat, tinsel, poisoned weapons and drink your delay poison potion before entering. The poison, it does nothing!
Now this involves combat sure, but it isn't just that. Once you get your earnings lavish it upon the people, be the nicest guy around, donate it to good faiths and public works, hire bards to spread your reputation.
Be the coolest fighter around in and out of combat. The RP combat circle.
Fighters are not useless out of combat, but they still suck at it. Because every other class is more useful than them in that situation. Being worse than everyone else does not mean you're completely useless, but it does mean you suck at it!
So, yeah, compared to all other classes, Fighters suck out of combat.
I'd say this pretty well sums up my opinion. Simply put, fighters have the least out-of-combat utility of any PC class, while not being significantly better than the other classes at combat. That's not to mention that balancing out-of-combat suck with in-combat godliness is not a great design to begin with.
I'd say their higher theoretical DPR and AC are more than offset by poor saves and a general lack of nice abilities. The fighter might get slightly more damage on a full attack than a barbarian, but the Barb will be getting a lot more full attacks with pounce, has Superstition to bump up 90% of saves, and with the right build can eventually match the fighter's AC. Rangers and Paladins also get plenty of combat-applicable goodies to let them keep up with the fighter.
Personally, I think the fighter should go up to 4+int and get an expanded class skill selection. Though honestly, I don't think any class except int-based casters should be at 2+int skills/level.
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You know, ive DM'ed a few campaigns now all the way up to twenty (2 APs and 3 homebrews now.)
In absolutely none of those has the high level wizard been a god, nor have they been able to pull off this consistant teleport, summon deal you guys are all throwing about. I've playeed with multiple groups, all of them very experience and quite good players too, so please don't insult any of us by saying we didnt play it right. The comeback to that is you didn't have a good enough DM, and we don't want to go down the track of insulting people.
The reason of course is that when you're high level, so are the enemies. Enemies at that level are aware of what casters can do. The fact they got to that level means killing them is hard enough, without the caster disapearing for 4 rounds to summon his horde.
Mostly, at high level, the fights are so damn deadly that the casters spend their time desperately trying to shut down the awsome "kill everyone on site" abilities that the enemies have that they don't have time to waste on summoning. Most of the time they're trying to debuff or lock down opponents who also have the ability to teleport at will and summon and go invisible etc. A full round to summon is a wasted action where the creatures can kill anyone who's not a hitpoint sponge in one round.
Mean while, the fighter is desperately hitting the now dimensional anchored and debuffed critter so he can kill it before the thing gets its full abilities to bear on the party. If the wizard has done his job right, the fighter can actually hit it consistantly because it cant fly/teleport/ etc away.
If we use the example Marthkus provided, the Wizard teleports, summons his weaker than the fighter monsters, then teleports back in. He looks around in horror at his slaughtered companions after having spent a minimum of three rounds not fighting. Then the thing that tore all his friends up kills him, ignoring the summons because it can, and it only takes it a round of actions to kill the puny magic user. It may die aftr this, if the summons the caster brought with it are tough enough, but chances are it won't.
I tend to believe that most people who talk about the caster gods don't actually play at high level. At least not at high level with what I'd call truly high level enemies. I could be very wrong of course, but it certainly is the feeling I get when reading their posts.
Cheers
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I seen a couple of high level games going till level 18 or so and the casters do not auto-dominate encounters at high levels. The same way martials don't auto-dominate at low levels. I've seen casters in high level games try the "teleport away and come back with summons" strategy and it normally turns out horrendously. Either the other pcs are dead or have fled. Otherwise, the encounter is pretty much over and the other pcs are victorious. Some DMs don't even award xp to the casters who do that in such a scenario.
@Wrath: You'ver hit the nail on the head with your post. Granted, every game is run differently with the game being more or less difficult depending on how the DM runs opponents. At high levels, everyone is trying to shut down their opponents, especially monstrous ones since they can do so much in such a short time. A pc disappearing for afew rounds can greatly tip the scales in the opponents favour.
There was one sargavan game I was in, playing a ninja. We ran into a couple of rustlords. The galtan fighter chose to back up so far that the penalties he was sitting on prevented him from hitting the creatures with thrown weapons. So he spent a couple of rounds not contributing. The party drunken master and my character came so close to being wiped by these creatures. The party warlock chose to sit back two hundred feet and shoot from a save distance when he could have closed and thrown out naster invocations. We were about level 10. If it was an encounter designed for us when we were level 15+, I have no doubt the two pcs in the thick of it would have perished.
There was a high level game I was in briefly. Party was level 16. Came across all manner of opponets, monstrous and otherwise. The main thing at that level was co-ordinating tactics and getting into the thick of it. Throughout the game, no one disappeared or held back from contributing and even then, some of the encounters were really close victories. It really could have gone either way. If we had rolled slightly lower on the dice, the opponents would have killed us. Capturing us wasn't really an option for them since they were prety cold and merciless. This was with a group of highly optimized characters. It still wasn't a cake walk despite everyone going all out, caster or martial wise.
If we use the example Marthkus provided, the Wizard teleports, summons his weaker than the fighter monsters, then teleports back in. He looks around in horror at his slaughtered companions after having spent a minimum of three rounds not fighting. Then the thing that tore all his friends up kills him, ignoring the summons because it can, and it only takes it a round of actions to kill the puny magic user. It may die aftr this, if the summons the caster brought with it are tough enough, but chances are it won't.
No, if you use the example Marthkus provided, the Wizard uses Time Stop and has rounds to summon monsters and buff allies before the Time Stop runs out with no time having passed.
Since this Wizard rolled minimum on rounds, he only has enough time to say, throw off one Summon Monster and cast Haste on the party, plus maybe another buff if he Quickens it, but it's still a far cry from "OMG the battle's over before he can do anything" scenario you were talking about.
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The situation I described regularly happens well and truly before the level 9 spells are available.
However, I'll offer a counter (again, based on my 5 high level campaigns only, so obviously all the provisions that go along with that apply)
Time stop says
"You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat."
That's from my pdf copy of the rules. Emphasis is mine. What that means is he can't actually buff anyone but himself. He can summon in critters, but once they appear, they are then invulnerable to his spells as well, which means he can't buff them either. He can't cast haste on anyone but himself.
Ive seen time stop used quite a few times. Since I've DM'd for it on all of those occasions, I know quite well how it works. You can set up a series of summoned creatures if you get enough actions in, as you've suggested. However, Time stop is actually the "Oh my gods, everything has gone to pieces and I'm about to die" spell. It is mostly used to GTFO and put barriers in front of enemies. Also, the encounter description above that I used almost invariably comes about as a boss encounter. Boss encounters, particularly at high level, usually occur after many resources have been depleted through the use of lesser minions. The wizard is smart enough to keep time stop for such an occasion, but his choice of spells is rarely as open. The wisest wizards keep the emergency ones at hand, and almost none of those are summons.
Summon monsters are ignorable, in that nearly all of them are worse at doing anyhting the to enemy than the players are. If you can get a situation where the terrain can be blocked by said summons, then thats fantastic, but then most things just teleport/fly/dimension door pas at that time, because the Wizard spent his oh so very important action time stopping rather than locking down that method of control.
Remember, all those high level monsters and NPC baddies you fight can pull off all sorts of fantastic stuff you're not giving them credit for.
Anyhow, this has gotten away from the Fighters out of combat situation we should be talking about.
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I have been toying with an idea for the fighter, inspired by the Tome of Battle from 3.5e. You know, the book they made with fighting classes that were almost on par with the casting ones.
The gist of it is that the fighter trains in the morning, and then chooses his bonus feats for the day. The feats you get from levels 1,3,5 etc are set in stone, but you can choose any feats with the rest as long as you have the requirements.
This would remedy a lot of "But WHY!?" scenarios in games in my experience. Instead of the GM having to alter weapons in game to fit the fighter, the fighter can change his feats to fit the weapons. It will give the fighter an air of fighting competence, as well as making their game mechanics reflect the fluff blurb and the "role" bit of the class.
I know it sound completely absurd, making the fighter the paragon of fighting, when he usually tends to be a sad one-trick pony with little to contribute when said trick fails.
A wizard can choose between being an engine of destruction one day, build half a kingdom the other day, summon an army of monster the third, and learn the secrets of half the multiverse on the fourth. And if he has time to make a bunch of scrolls he can do ALL of that during ONE day.
A fighter... can either hit something very hard or shoot something really well. Rarely both. The next day, he can do the same. Until he levels up, then he can hit a little bit harder, or maybe make a small monster fall over.
True enough on the in combat usage of summons I suppose, I've never been very enamored of them. Though using the higher level summon monster to summon multiple lower level creatures can give you a good bit of extra action economy, which is nice.
You can't really beat a summon for utility in a pinch though.
As for Time Stop not affecting people, AoE spells with a duration still work. So things in the vein of Black Tentacles and the like that impede people's motion are still A-OK options to chuck out in your spare time.
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Kamel, that would break my immersion greatly I'm afraid. I tend to think of fighting feats (and feats in general) as similar to techniques taught in martial arts. Once you've learned it, you can use it all day every day (although some are more exhausting than others admittedly). I don't go for the idea of "Damnit, I didn't train spinning kick this morning, can't use it this combat, but I can double kick and knife hand, lucky me"
I understand this is hyperbole, but its the way I picture things. I'm happy enough that they can retrain some of those feats, but not on a daily basis.
Having said all that, I played Earthdawn for a number of years, and in that world you learned more abilities by tying threads to the world, and the world provided you with more power. I can see your idea working in a world like that.
Also, again with the Wizard thing, up to a certain point you are correct, but after a certian level, getting the spells to become that versatile is amazingly hard, since almost no one is also that level, and most who are tend to be, you know, bad guys (for some reason).
Again I'll drop back to my own experiences at high level here, and I'll stick to AP's rather than homebrew for obvious reasons. In Age of Worms and Legacy of Fire, you rapidly run out of access to any high level spells beyond what you can learn for free from levelling up. Additionally, the ones you do occasionally come across invariably have a large amount of overlap in your current spell lists. While I know it doesn't belong in a thread about fighters out of combat, I just want to point out again that the all mighty Wizard that everyone talks about just isn't that great in real campaigns.
Also, I've yet to come across a fighter that sucked at any combat at any level. Admittedly, that's because our groups shored up weakness with suitable equipment or party buffs. It is a group game though, so I figure that's fair.
Cheers
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If we use the example Marthkus provided, the Wizard teleports, summons his weaker than the fighter monsters, then teleports back in. He looks around in horror at his slaughtered companions after having spent a minimum of three rounds not fighting. Then the thing that tore all his friends up kills him, ignoring the summons because it can, and it only takes it a round of actions to kill the puny magic user. It may die aftr this, if the summons the caster brought with it are tough enough, but chances are it won't.No, if you use the example Marthkus provided, the Wizard uses Time Stop and has 1d4+1 rounds to summon monsters and buff allies before the Time Stop runs out with no time having passed.
Since this Wizard rolled minimum on rounds, he only has enough time to say, throw off one Summon Monster and cast Haste on the party, plus maybe another buff if he Quickens it, but it's still a far cry from "OMG the battle's over before he can do anything" scenario you were talking about.
Here's the kicker with Time Stop. You don't know how many rounds you actually have. Now you can say that you have a minimum of 2 so let's go there.
Okay you have two free rounds let's see what happens.
You begin casting Summon Monster: 1 round gone.
Monster Arrives and you begin to cast it again: 2nd round gone.
Time Stop is over and so is your turn.
Next player or enemy goes and the summon monsters have yet to go.
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The greatest thing that some people here tend to ignore is action economy.
When you actually sit down at a high level game, your Wizard isn't summoning hordes of monsters, which are actually trivial in high level anyway, and they aren't teleporting here and there doing all this devastation in one go.
Theorycraft is just what it is, actual gameplay is a lot different.
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The greatest thing that some people here tend to ignore is action economy.
When you actually sit down at a high level game, your Wizard isn't summoning hordes of monsters, which are actually trivial in high level anyway, and they are teleporting here and there doing all this devastating in one go.
Theorycraft is just what it is, actual gameplay is a lot different.
Amen to that.
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Casters will win hands down if opponents huddle together in clumps, fail every save and allow the caster a dozen actions per round. Yet to come across a game where that is the case. It normally tends to be pretty messy and being able to improvise on the fly or helping another pc to do their shtick (which tips the odds majorly in the party's favour) is a lot more common.
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I can tell you from personal experience that at high levels most everything you fighter has a genius or higher intellect so they know who to go for and where they should stand on the battlefield.
Creatures at the high a level know that PC's by that time are powerful and dangerous so going for the weak spellcasters first is a viable and often used tactic.
The first thing an enemy cleric would do is start tossing stones with "Silence" spells cast on them at PC spellcasters.
I have had an enemy Rogue/Cleric who had a nasty habit of putting "Sovereign Glue" on stones with Silence cast on them and throw them at spellcasters.
Or the wizard cast quicken invisibility as he is flying over the combat and summons a big monster or 1d3+1 (superior summons) every round until the battlefield is flooded with outsiders casting SLA's and smacking things. You can't ignore the right summons because they are either hitting SLAs, decent attacks, or grappling everything in sight because those animals with smite come in handy (mini paladins).
At high levels you can summon casters. If combat is longer than 3 rounds this comes in handy.
But yeah out of combat Fighters almost have the same utility as summons (they can kick down doors). Summons do have more knowledge, craft, and skills check than the fighter.
I have been toying with an idea for the fighter, inspired by the Tome of Battle from 3.5e. You know, the book they made with fighting classes that were almost on par with the casting ones.
Actually they were tier 3/4 classes in the book. They of course beat out the tier 5s, but they still aren't a 3.5 wizard. The fact they shored up their saves and had class features and skill points was fantastic. Synergy with a mental stat, while mad, did make them additionally more useful.
Yeah, can we go back to talking about fighter?
You know who doesn't have true sight and wind walk at high levels? Fighters. What tricks does the fighter class give?
Besides with a trait the fither can use a mithral breastplate without penalty. And if you think htat i a bad argument I remind you that in this kind of thread is alays asummed that everyone have a mithral celestial plate by level 10.Is it? Seems a bit pricey to have that plus everything else you need.The argument with the celestial plate is that once the celstialplate comes into play armor training becomes irrelevant.
I do not see why the same argument do not apply here. Once thre mithal breastplate comes into play the diference in AC disapear. And the mithral breastplate comesinto play several levels earleir.
Correctly defined, celestial mail eliminates all the benefits of armor training unless your Dex is above 26.
Mithral BP eliminates the benefits of armor training unless your Dex is 22+. You just don't need it.Celestial Plate is like a Mithral BP with +2 AC, and medium armor.
==Aelryinth
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Besides with a trait the fither can use a mithral breastplate without penalty. And if you think htat i a bad argument I remind you that in this kind of thread is alays asummed that everyone have a mithral celestial plate by level 10.Is it? Seems a bit pricey to have that plus everything else you need.The argument with the celestial plate is that once the celstialplate comes into play armor training becomes irrelevant.
I do not see why the same argument do not apply here. Once thre mithal breastplate comes into play the diference in AC disapear. And the mithral breastplate comesinto play several levels earleir.
Correctly defined, celestial mail eliminates all the benefits of armor training unless your Dex is above 26.
Mithral BP eliminates the benefits of armor training unless your Dex is 22+. You just don't need it.
Celestial Plate is like a Mithral BP with +2 AC, and medium armor.==Aelryinth
I can actually eliminate the need for a Wizard with Use Magic Device, Scrolls, and some wands and nobody says anything about it but you have to spend a lot of money, and GM fiat, to get Celestial Breast Plate or Full Plate in order to get what the fighter gets for free and people are all over that.