well an armor class of 42 will be very hard to hit.. SR 27 hard to pentrate.. I dont see it happening
Half of the party are full-on buff-capable, and they have a Paladin who fares reasonably likely to hit with a simple Smite Evil.
Ancient Black "by the book" has an SR of 29. However, if the 'cast spells to deal direct damage' characters haven't bothered to grab Greater Spell Penetration by now - which stacks with the bonus from Elf - they shouldn't be "blasting" anyway. Yes, that is "only" a d20+16 for a 10th level elf wizard with GSP to punch through ... but that's a lot better than most.
Now, let them have it. There's 10 of them, and I'd bet serious money that it will be an all-day slobberknocker for them. AC 37 - yeah, hard to hit. Touch AC: 5 <--- waaay worse than it was pre-Pathfinder.
A few tanglefoot bags and the critter has NO Dexterity, coup de gras, problem solved.
I'm curious to see how this turns out, but I really think the party will be squished.
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As I understand it, the party was out adventuring, doing the usual "we are out to kill random stuff" things, had killed some mobs, expend some spells, taken some damage, etc.
Then an Ancient Black Dragon burst out of the swamp with a fearsome roar. Gaming Session ends In Media Res.
If this is the case, if the characters have not had time to prepare, they are dead. period. no contest. They do not have a chance in hell.
On the other hand, if they are able to go to town, buy some things, rest up, heal, remove bad stuff, etc, then go and fight the Ancient Black Dragon while they are refreshed and ready, then I believe they can take it.
Being prepared makes all the difference in the world.
well maybe they got a teleport spell prepped.. dimension door even 'might' work if the dragon isn't very persistent.
well maybe they got a teleport spell prepped.. dimension door even 'might' work if the dragon isn't very persistent.
The problem is that at 10th level a dimension door is only going to get you 800 ft away. Combined with only being able to carry along 3 additional PCs at that caster level and you are setting up a situation where the party is split and even easier targets for the dragon.
Teleport has similar problems (a max of 3 passenger) at that level but presumably the fleeing people are safe at least ;)
It's unlikely that any of the clerics have plane shift memorized but a sudden plane shift to a different plane might give the PCs some breathing room. I'd hate to have to link hands while an ancient black dragon is threatening the party though...
If the party has a great diplomat/bluffer the PCs might be able to convince the dragon to let them go in return for a bribe though.
If they haven't had time, and especially if they are just coming off of some hard fights, they are all going to die unless you pull punches, and they have no shot at winning.
This is a very important bit of information, so maybe clarify, or at least let us know what happens? I for one am curious.
Yeah, pretty important. There's a big difference between a CR 16 at the beginning of the day with 100% resources and a CR 16 fight after 3 CR 13 fights.
Admittedly, the wizard could rely on buff scrolls (resist/protection from energy?) to help the melee out (assuming he has a horde of buffing scrolls).
Healing wise, 3 clerics is a massive amount of group healing since channeled energy heals 10 PCs as well as it heals 1. A level 10 cleric is doing 5d6 healing per channel -- that's 52.5 average healing per round from 3 clerics. Then again, a dragon line is doing an average of 70 damage a round on probably 1-2 targets. Dragon breaths are 1d4 rounds apart, so without some busting butt healing, that could overwhelm you. 10th level doesn't give you access to the heal spell either ):
With greater vital strike + power attack an ancient dragon averages 78 points of damage with his fly-by bite which is likely to drop most arcane casters, possibly drop a rogue, and put a serious dent on any fighters or clerics. Full attacks are pretty much going to turn any PC into chunky salsa.
The acid pool ability is also pretty nasty as an opening move on the dragon's part. A 50' radius pool doing 20d6 the first round, 10d6 the second round, 5d6 the next round can devastate a party and prevent the party from coordinating defenses and buffing. Yeah the rogues are probably going to dodge it but the rest of the party is going to take a beating.
While Dragons probably aren't quite the equivalent of a CR+2 encounter under pathfinder if played smart instead of big dumb brute the dragon should slaughter the PCs especially if they aren't prepared and aren't at full resources.
Then an Ancient Black Dragon burst out of the swamp with a fearsome roar. Gaming Session ends In Media Res.
Story angle idea.
Who says the dragon was bursting out of the swamp with a fearsome roar for the PCs. A bunch of things could be going on.
1. The black dragon just noticed an Adult Copper dragon flying over head, "how dare that copper come into the domain of <insert dragons name here>" Then the PCs can help the outmatched copper win the fight.
2. The dragon just got called by <insert high power evil guy> and is off to aid his 'friend' doing a few parting shots before heading into the sunset.
3. Dragon bursts out of the swamp with a bad toothace, the PCs only need remove the dragon bane sword lodged between its teeth. The dragon can yell at the PCs about "Not another toothache!" "The last of your kind has given me one heck of a toothache."
4. Black dragon is after a specific PC in the party. Once dead he grabs the corpse and flies away.
Just some random ideas.
If there is a paladin or cleric in the group (or similiar character) and it is a complete wipe, have one of the character's diety (or other powerful spirit) visit them in the spirit world and work on a path of redemption to return to the material plane. You can work in a dragon mythos as it relates to your pantheon, and perhaps have a rematch to regain entrance. Who ican say if dragons do not have a presence on multiple planes of existance.
Options:
1) Fight it straight and kill the party. TPK. Yuck
What makes you think that if a fight does break out:
1. The players' use smart tactics to defeat the dragon
2. The two sides decide to parlay
3. The players retreat when things are going badly
4. some other option that they might choose (call a friend etc.)
There appears to be very little trust in "players choice" from what I can tell.
Want evil? Here's evil.
The dragon doesn't bother to do anything.
It just sort of sits there and smirks for a round or two. If the players pull anything truly impressive and do anything meaningful to it, fine, the gloves come off and it does its level best to turn today's adventurers into tomorrow's dragon-droppings. Otherwise it just drips with water... and scorn.
A CE dragon doesn't necessarily mean psychotic and continually murderous. Role-play the thing if it's not really threatened.
"Are you monkeys serious? Look at you. Look at me. Notice anything different?"
"You bunch seem especially stupid for mammals."
Let the players have a round or two to blunt their swords and get it that basically nothing they've got does anything to it. Let it sink in... they've got a limited amount of time before they're going to accidentally piss it off, without being able to hurt it. Let them change their minds.
On the other hand, if they actually hurt it, run the encounter.
^_^ Let us see what the ten players decide to do with the dragon, shall we?
^_^ Let us see what the ten players decide to do with the dragon, shall we?Beg for mercy?
Ten players?
They make new dragonskin cloaks after mopping it in three rounds, using the hoard to resurrect four dead party members.
...In any situation where they are fully stocked.
In this situation, I estimate two pc deaths a round.
What time zone do you play in??? I'm staying up looking for your post! You said Thursday night right?
I'm with the horde.... let us know how it wraps up! Black Dragons have always been my favorite.
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10 PCs that are level 10 and have full knowledge and prep? Dragon is mincemeat. They should all be acid resistant, making the dragon's breath a waste. Spells should be concentrated on buffs, that makes both SR and To Hit problems leave. Paladin should be hitting on 10+ for 40+ per hit, even if reduced to archery. It should actually be a fairly easy encounter, though you know your party best.
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10 PCs that are level 10 and have full knowledge and prep? Dragon is mincemeat. They should all be acid resistant, making the dragon's breath a waste. Spells should be concentrated on buffs, that makes both SR and To Hit problems leave. Paladin should be hitting on 10+ for 40+ per hit, even if reduced to archery. It should actually be a fairly easy encounter, though you know your party best.
Was a cr 16 dragon. The dm has actually posted a summary but in another thread.
Edit: linked
lol, not the way I play dragons, I tend to play them cunning and dangerous though, it is one of the few creatures I hold back little.
anyway, the guy posted the result of his battle, but he posted it under pathfinder chronicals general discussion by accident, figured you guys might want to know ^^
Alas he fell into the dragon as a big dumb brute trap that so many DMs seem to fall victim to. By wasting time with spellcasting (come on DM prebuff the dragon some ;))and remaining stationary in order to full attack PCs the dragon becomes much more of a target and the action economy can really beat him down. A certain amount of overconfidence is probably appropriate in the case of an ancient black dragon but not so much that they quit focusing on annihilating the biggest threats first while minimizing personal risk (after all you don't become ancient by being a total idiot).
Black dragons are nice, but I prefer Silvers to any others.
TPK! TPK!
Good man, they're the best of the good dragons. I remember seeing the old d and d dragon size chart and just going "GAH!" at the silvers.
Alas he fell into the dragon as a big dumb brute trap that so many DMs seem to fall victim to. By wasting time with spellcasting (come on DM prebuff the dragon some ;))and remaining stationary in order to full attack PCs the dragon becomes much more of a target and the action economy can really beat him down. A certain amount of overconfidence is probably appropriate in the case of an ancient black dragon but not so much that they quit focusing on annihilating the biggest threats first while minimizing personal risk (after all you don't become ancient by being a total idiot).
I'd only cast blur flying in the air -- way up high you've got some nice range increment penalties -- before swooping down to unleash mayhem. Blur also says *dispel me! dispel me!*, so it might not be a good choice if mage armor/heroism get dispelled in the process of getting rid of blur.
With so many enemies approaching, I'd say overconfidence should be minimal until the PCs start falling one by one.
Tell us! Please tell us! I'll give you my lucky kobold!
Curses! Still no news?
Curses! Still no news?
It's in another thread.
I know it's probably too late for it now, but my suggestion would have been 'Does the dragon have any kids, younger sibs, or boyfriends?'
Use a younger dragon, say it's the big gal's offspring, kid sibling or mate. Like, CR 12 or 13, maybe?
The party rushes to engage the dragon, makes perception or arcana checks and maybe realizes she's smaller than she should be.
They still fight a dragon, and a tough one, but one that's level appropriate, so to speak. Now I'm off to read about how it actually went down. :)
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So here's the situation: I'm running a big group of 10th level characters. Should be 8-10 PCs on the board for the next session.
The players know they're going up against a very powerful ancient black dragon.
Because one of the players succeeded at a bardic knowledge check, and because I knew they would need some serious strategy prep, I let on that they would be facing the CR16 black dragon in the PF bestiary.
Full confession: I didn't read the stat block carefully enough and didn't realize that the beast's AC and SR were that high.
My players are really excited about the idea of confronting an iconic and awesome monster.
They'll be really bummed if I simply downsize the dragon.
On the other hand, I don't see how their PCs have a chance of landing blows or spells before going down in a hail of ugliness.
Any graceful suggestions for evening the match a bit without gutting the drama?
-Marsh
coming from a group that recently faced nearly the same situation (APL is 10, 3/4 dozen folks in the party entourage) but vs the Ancient White Dragon. to be frank, it was hell on wheels. mind you we're a very optimized party, with about 4 levels higher wealth than we should have.
the fight was a booger. the high sr fizzled 80% of the spells cast on it, and the high ac gave our melee guys a run for their money (again, about 20% pass rate). the fight indeed falls into the 'epic' category for being so much higher on the CR scale than the party's APL. we managed to succeed with only 1 PC killed, the party scattered across half a mile of tundra, and everybody in sore spirits.
from an ooc perspective, it made many of us furious when we were fighting it. this mostly stemmed from prior IC knowledge that implied the dragon wasn't that age category. a lucky six on a successful touch of idiocy dropped the cr about 2. our GM did tone it down from full power, not utilizing full attack actions every time he could, and only breath weapon attacking once (when he could have twice, maybe thrice). it by no means made it a cake walk, and did little to appease us folks who were only 1/5 useful, but it made for a very memorable fight (especially to the dead monk! good thing somebody happened to be carrying a sack of diamond dust in their pack).
There is always the option by the players to attempt a retreat to return at a later time when they advance in power/levels after they learn they can't touch the dragon. Followers, hirelings could be the ones sacrificed to ensure the actual players get away.
I think I saw also, a suggestion to let them earn their way into the dragon's "Lair" by going through minions and prepared areas (Traps) that should be there anyways. Unless the dragon is caught out in the open on a foray from it's lair, it should be difficult or even impossible for a ill-prepared party to take down a dragon of age and intelligence. Dragons and NPC's won't fight to the death unless they have a reason to or are cornered trapped.
I have done the same thing a few times. I have even allowed a randomly generated encounter that the group had no way of defeating occur to "Test" the players game sense. Sometimes players get into a habit of attacking everything because they have had no defeats and think this is just another creature to steamroll.
Defeats can be as memorable as epic successes.