I'm thinking about picking up the Dragonlance campaign setting book. My question is: is it any good?
Bear in mind:
1. I own very few 3.5e supplements aside from the Pathfinder Chronicles/Companions (I've only been playing Pathfinder for 6 months or so)
2. Aside from being friends with Matt Stawicki, I know nothing about Dragonlance
3. I will either be taking ideas from this setting and using them in Golarion or running a short campaign using Pathfinder rules
Thanks!
Dragon lance is a "campaign setting" with a long and rich history. A few interesting classes/races. Some people don't like it so if your group is a monster destroying, dungeon bashing group they may not like it. The history of the world shapes the mechanics of some of the classes/races. If you group is into world exploring and story telling it's pretty good. Mr. Fishy would suggest looking for a wiki, or looking at the book a little before you buy it.
As a idea mine it has a few interesting things.
The later, 3PP DL stuff does a decent job of giving you the tools to run an Age of Mortals game, I guess, but I can't remember a single thing I ever actually used from DLCS besides draconians.
I think that's always been the big draw: the draconians. That and the Tower of High Sorcery were the only things that held my interests to mine from.
Not saying Dragonlance isn't a bad setting; I enjoyed the stories of the original cast of characters, but not so much when they moved on to the next generation (i.e. focusing on Caramon's children).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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MWP's stuff is nice.
If you're familiar with the setting at all, I can't recommend 'Legacy of the twins enough.'
Towers of High Sorcery, Holy Orders of Krynn, and Knightly orders of Krynn(I think) are all wonderful fluffy books.
That they blew up Taladas, then never did a supliment to it, bothers me.
As stated above, some of the 3.x edition DL mechanics can be a little wonky. However it is a great setting, loved by many (myself included). Go with it if you're more into sweeping-epic kinda stuff, lots of characters with grand motivations, gods playing a hand in things, etc. If you're short on cash, again as stated, try devoting an hour to a DL wiki and see if you like what you read.
Peace,
tfad
Thanks, everyone.
I'll check out the Wiki.
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I'm thinking about picking up the Dragonlance campaign setting book. My question is: is it any good?
Bear in mind:
1. I own very few 3.5e supplements aside from the Pathfinder Chronicles/Companions (I've only been playing Pathfinder for 6 months or so)2. Aside from being friends with Matt Stawicki, I know nothing about Dragonlance
3. I will either be taking ideas from this setting and using them in Golarion or running a short campaign using Pathfinder rules
Thanks!
Yes it is very good.
Dragonlance is great for epic storytelling, not so much for dungeon trekking.
Personally, I'd suggest you read a few of the books, as they're the best thing for portraying the feel of Dragonlance. The original trilogy (later turned into a 4 book series where the 4th book was YEARS later and with different characters, but supposedly linked because it "finishes" the war that the original three were supposed to be done with), which consists of Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Dragons of Winter Night, and Dragons of Spring Dawning (the 4th is called Dragons of Summer Flame) are a great starting point. Though my favorites were The Legend of Huma and Kaz the Minotaur.
Wait, are we talking about Dragonlance the venerable campaign setting, or are we talking about Dragonlance Campaign Setting, the third-edition Dragonlance setting book published in 2003?
Because the latter is awful, but the former has some good ideas and bad ideas.
Well, since the OP has no knowledge of the campaign setting at all, and I personally have almost no knowledge of the Campaign Setting, I gave him the best advice I could about the campaign setting, leaving you guys to tell him about the Campaign Setting.
I think he wanted to know if either one is good.
For me, Dragonlance ranks near the bottom of campaign settings I would want to play in. (And last amongst the "official" D&D settings.)
There's a lot to like there flavor-wise, but the playstyle required (or, at least, encouraged) does not fit my preference.
Isn't Dragonlance the setting where there's no divine magic at all? No healing, no resurrections, etc? Yeah, that'll go well. I see several characters from the party laid up for a month between each encounter.
Isn't Dragonlance the setting where there's no divine magic at all? No healing, no resurrections, etc?
The setting is divided in ages, with no divine magic being a feature of one age. While it sounds bad for D&D, you can either ignore it (play in a different age), or make something of it. The first series of books as the heroes on a quest to find/restore divine magic.
Seriously, give the PCs the only staff of healing on Krynn and adventures will naturally follow! Plus who doesn't like being special?
It is also worth noting that you are not required to stick to "canon". If you want to mix up the different time periods, loot the setting for your home-brew game, or just play with all the rules for dragon riders (maybe you want to play in Pern? *shudder*), then go for it. RPG books are sources of information/ideas/fun.
Loot on!
Peace,
tfad
Dragonlance makes for better fiction then it does adventure IMHO.
And given how bad the fiction is, that makes for some pretty bad adventuring... ;-)
LMAO - good one! ;p
tfad
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Given that you'd be using Pathfinder rules, I don't see exactly how the Dragonlance CS would add or remove very much at all, mechanically.
If you use it just for flavor or mining it for ideas, I think it's a pretty good buy (especially considering how cheaply it can be found).
As others mentioned, it can move your games flavor more towards grand sweeping epic. If that's what you're going for, then the DLCS might be for you. As others said, check out the wiki and see what you think after an hour or so.
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For me, Dragonlance ranks near the bottom of campaign settings I would want to play in. (And last amongst the "official" D&D settings.)
There's a lot to like there flavor-wise, but the playstyle required (or, at least, encouraged) does not fit my preference.
Yeah, that's my thought. Those first three novels were pretty awesome, but they didn't, IMO, translate into a fun campaign setting.
(Much like Middle-Earth, IMO. Fun to read, not at all built for standard fantasy game play.)
If anything, the unpopularity of what they did with their Clerics and the silence of the gods and the breaking of the world should have been a clue that the Time of Troubles probably wasn't the best idea ever, for the Forgotten Realms setting...
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Dragonlance makes for better fiction then it does adventure IMHO.
Exactly. In some places I think the fiction has been constrained because of vague attempts to make it consistent with D&D.
In regards to quality in DL fiction, I'd simply avoid anything that isn't written by Hickman or Weis. For me, Chronicles (trilogy) + Legends is easily the best, and everything else I regard as extra.
It basically comes down to the type of campaign world you want to run.
Dragonlance is not something I personally would ever care to play in simply because all kender must die. I also hate the tower of sorcery idea, the fact that mages HAVE to wear robes that denote their alignment and the whole phases of the moon thing affecting a mages magic just doesn't sit well in my idea of fantasy.
If you wnat a diffrent world setting try forgotten realms and go way back into the past.
Sadly, not everything written by Weis and Hickman on Dragonlance is a good thing. Does anybody like the War of Souls Trilogy ? Really ? Well, except for Gerard uth Mondar
(the only character I seriously respect in that trilogy - I mean, a Solamnian Kinght who has to escort a crazy kender who declares himself to be a "Back-to-the-Future'd" Tasslehoff Burrfoot into a Dragon Overlord territory? Well, of course I disguise myself as a Knight of Neraka!)
and Galdar
the LE Minotaur - well, maybe more LN , but, oh, well, we are on Krynn, right? Good is good and Evil is evil and all of that... - loyal to Mina until the end and beyond, and the only one who doesn't give a damn about 'The One God', since it was MINA who healed his arm, and his loyalty went to her alone
all the other are... oh, my god, what can I say without being rude... horrible. Including (especially !!!) the 'old characters revisited'...
I mean, LORD SOTH IS LIKE DARTH VADER !!!! Saaaaaaad, he 'repents near the end' and is consumed into a bonfire... buuuh !!!
Raistlin is a magic-junkie (all right, this is from 'Dragon of Summer Flame, but it has some consequences in the WoS Trilogy as well - plus, it's another sad, sad thing...) !!! 'No, brother, don't show in front of me a Grimoire or I COULD BECOME CRAZY AGAIN !!!!! BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHA !!! THE WORLD IS MINE !!!!! ... uh, sorry. - cough, cough - can you pass me some of that soup, thanks ?'
However, Palin becomes a 'Raistlin-clone' (magic-junkie and all) into the War of Souls Trilogy, and that relates to the spoiler above...
Sorry, the last trilogy is not even worth mentioning for me...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sadly, not everything written by Weis and Hickman on Dragonlance is a good thing. Does anybody like the War of Souls Trilogy ? Really ? Well, except for Gerard uth Mondar
** spoiler omitted **
and Galdar
** spoiler omitted **all the other are... oh, my god, what can I say without being rude... horrible. Including (especially !!!) the 'old characters revisited'...
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Sorry, the last trilogy is not even worth mentioning for me...
Agreed. The only W&H book I want to read DL related is Dragon of the Highlord Skies, since Skie was my favourite character ;-)
And that wasn't Soth, he's still in Ravenloft *laugh*
Given that DL as novels were written under 1st ed rules the later rules 2e/3e etc just don't capture the feel of the books for me.
Fair point. I think it did okay under 2E, but you're right about it not fitting 3E all that well. There's a kind of "concession" to the setting in DL characters, e.g. the magic users. Doesn't mesh with the 3E concept of character creation "all power to the players" freedom.
Peace,
tfad
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Any setting with the immense publishing schedule that DragonLance saw, is fated to attract both good and bad fiction. Rumor has it that some of the Forgotten Realms fiction is of mixed quality.
I haven't read much of the DragonLance fiction line, but I was one of the freelancers asked to write for DL15, a collection of shorter adventures that came out right after the major storyline. And I can tell you what my editors at the time understood to be the hallmarks of a DragonLance adventure.
DL is, first and foremost, about character. Not world-shaking events. You can have a good DL adventure that's small and unlikely to impact the world, but a DL adventure should be very personal for somebody. Think "King Lear" rather than "Thunderball". You don't need wacky tinker gnomes, or retarded gully dwarves, or dopey kender. But if you do put such a character into a good DL adventure, you'll make sure the player characters see him or her as an individual.
DragonLance is opera.
In regards to quality in DL fiction, I'd simply avoid anything that isn't written by Hickman or Weis. For me, Chronicles (trilogy) + Legends is easily the best, and everything else I regard as extra.
Well now, The Kinslayer Wars by Douglas Niles is a great read.
Flint the King by Kirchoff and Niles was entertaining. (It has many implausible premises and continuity problems, but the same goes for Weis & Hickman's writing too.)
Richard A. Knaak's writing is entertaining, albeit unmemorable.
Weasel's Luck by Michael Williams is a fun read.
And there are a few gems among the short stories.
(But then, you may have noticed that I'm only talking about the OLD Dragonlance books. I've read very few in the last decade or so.)
The Taladas trillogy was enjoyable, and it was set post WoS. But then I always liked Taladas.
The only problem was the 'you blew it up' RSE that the trillogy was, with no support afterwards.
HAIL TALADAS!
+1 on the desire for more support. The stuff I got off E-Bay after reading the series for 2nd ed Taladas is out of date at best and useless at worst.
Really good trilogy, there.
A friend of mine, during 3.0-3.5's second year of release, did sit down and run Dragonlance as a campaign. His format, as I recall, was based on:
*The original novels, plus some of the secondary novels TSR was putting out on some of the characters.
*The Dragonlance Source book for 2nd Edition - mostly for reference and background.
*Elements of the original Dragonlance modules that were released - I think they were under first edition rules.
Bear in mind, that he essentially he created an alternative version of the story - where the players replaced the main story characters by a quirk of fate. Sort of the equivalent of having Gandalf and Frodo lose the ring kind of thing.
So, I can't really speak to the new guidebook that was released in 2003. I can tell you it is possible to create a Dragonlance story to your liking. But, in the case of my friend, it was a lot of work and research on his part to make it all work. It helped that several of the players were huge DL fans, so he could do some hand-waving.
The story was epic, and he tried to be flexible with the players, but my impression was that it certainly didn't allow for random adventuring. But that group was generally OK with it.
Don't know if that really gives you good advice, but it's the most practical example I know.
As far as the novels go, regarding the ones by Weis and Hickman, I enjoyed the first two trilogies, but after that...well, the characters were a lot less interesting to me.
Raistlin was my favorite character, and after the legends series, he's pretty much nonexistant.
Thanks for the additional info!
As far as the novels go, regarding the ones by Weis and Hickman, I enjoyed the first two trilogies, but after that...well, the characters were a lot less interesting to me.
For me, what killed Dragonlance was Dragons of Summer Flame.
In Autumn Twilight, the theme was "The gods didn't abandon us; WE abandoned THEM."
Then in Summer Flame, the gods say "Oh, by the way, we have to leave Krynn now. Bye bye!"
What the...? If it's POSSIBLE for the gods to leave Krynn, then how can you blame the people for thinking that it happened?!?
And WHY did the gods have to leave? Apparently, to accommodate the "Saga" rules. Good move, TSR!
I made it a point never to read any Dragonlance novel that takes place after Summer Flame.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As far as the novels go, regarding the ones by Weis and Hickman, I enjoyed the first two trilogies, but after that...well, the characters were a lot less interesting to me.For me, what killed Dragonlance was Dragons of Summer Flame.
In Autumn Twilight, the theme was "The gods didn't abandon us; WE abandoned THEM."
Then in Summer Flame, the gods say "Oh, by the way, we have to leave Krynn now. Bye bye!"
What the...? If it's POSSIBLE for the gods to leave Krynn, then how can you blame the people for thinking that it happened?!?
And WHY did the gods have to leave? Apparently, to accommodate the "Saga" rules. Good move, TSR!
I made it a point never to read any Dragonlance novel that takes place after Summer Flame.
It could be worse... They could have reconned it that Tahkis stole the entire planet, leaving a hole in the place and the other deities going 'huh?' But then she goofed and let these HUGE honking dragons come and take over the world, with one of the original dragons being retconned into being one of these huge aliens and carving out his own domain. Then she could have found a lost deity to follow her, and had all the ghosts in the world eat all the magic around them...
As far as the novels go, regarding the ones by Weis and Hickman, I enjoyed the first two trilogies, but after that...well, the characters were a lot less interesting to me.For me, what killed Dragonlance was Dragons of Summer Flame.
In Autumn Twilight, the theme was "The gods didn't abandon us; WE abandoned THEM."
Then in Summer Flame, the gods say "Oh, by the way, we have to leave Krynn now. Bye bye!"
What the...? If it's POSSIBLE for the gods to leave Krynn, then how can you blame the people for thinking that it happened?!?
And WHY did the gods have to leave? Apparently, to accommodate the "Saga" rules. Good move, TSR!
I made it a point never to read any Dragonlance novel that takes place after Summer Flame.
It could be worse... They could have reconned it that Tahkis stole the entire planet, leaving a hole in the place and the other deities going 'huh?' But then she goofed and let these HUGE honking dragons come and take over the world, with one of the original dragons being retconned into being one of these huge aliens and carving out his own domain. Then she could have found a lost deity to follow her, and had all the ghosts in the world eat all the magic around them...
** spoiler omitted **
Hey, I LIKED that Takky did that. It's something the setting needed to put a lot of old characters and storylines to rest.
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In regards to quality in DL fiction, I'd simply avoid anything that isn't written by Hickman or Weis. For me, Chronicles (trilogy) + Legends is easily the best, and everything else I regard as extra.
Same. The new Lost Chronicles trilogy is rather good because each is a filler novel for the gaps in the original Chronicles trilogy.
I have to agree about the Kender... I hate hate hate -loathe- them as a race, and if a Lawful Good Paladin character committed genocide upon them, as a DM the most I'd do is have his god give him a light slap on the wrist, all the while cheering at the deed.
An old GM of mine insisted in bringing a Kender in as an NPC to every D&D game he ran, regardless of setting.
History and overview of the Dragonlance setting.
In short, DRAGONLANCE was the attempt by TSR to create a LORD OF THE RINGS-style character-based epic fantasy for D&D. Arguably, prior to that point D&D was much more derived from Robert E. Howard/Fritz Leiber-style swords 'n' sorcery adventuring and dungeon crawls where the players were out to raid dungeons and find treasure. Sure, there was some early things about saving the world and GREYHAWK had politics and some metaplots, but DRAGONLANCE was the first detailed epic saga using the D&D rules.
To my mind, this is both a good thing and a bad. Good, because it's fun and makes the PCs the centre of attention, but bad because the world becomes centered on that one story. Once the story is over, doing standard adventuring in Krynn becomes rather pointless as you might as well adventure in the much bigger and more opportunity-laden worlds of GREYHAWK, FORGOTTEN REALMS or EBERRON instead. The setting itself has some nice ideas but it's less of a roleplaying 'world' than those other settings, and more of a backdrop for those particular stories.
In addition, the War of the Lance was great but later developments became locked into the pattern of massive war/magical cataclysm followed by several years of peace/uneasy status quo/cold war followed by another massive war/magical cataclysm ad infinitum.
EDIT: You could also watch the movie. Although I really doubt you'd want to roleplay in the world afterwards ;-)
watch the movie. Although I really doubt you'd want to roleplay in the world afterwards ;-)
Wait, they actually released that? I thought they'd realize their mistake and bail last minute or something. I'm gonna go look that up right now.
Loved the original books! But as a campaign setting, I always felt the original cast of characters had already done it all. When I read other DL books the authors always found a way to have some sort of tie-in to the Heroes of the Lance, which IMO made the world seem small and crowded.
I have to agree about the Kender... I hate hate hate -loathe- them as a race...
awww... i think kender are cute! ;-)
I'm currently playing a halfling rogue in an active Golarion campaign that is modeled off the kender. Some may say annoying, but I'm having a blast with his naiveity and aloofness to the seriousness of the situation(s) at hand. :)
I have to agree about the Kender... I hate hate hate -loathe- them as a race...awww... i think kender are cute! ;-)
Yeah, until you've got one as a traveling companion/prison buddy (cause that's where they end up takin you).
Seriously, you think Flint was joking when he was getting annoyed with Tasselhoff? No. Only now that he's dead has he been able to look back on Mr. Burrfoot with any hint of sentimentality, and that's only cause he doesn't have to deal with him.
Hell, once Tass dies, I bet both Tass and Flint get sent back to the material plane, just so the gods don't have to deal with Tass bothering them all the time, or hear Flint complaining endlessly about the annoying "thing" they call a kender.
Dragonlance gnomes are almost as annoying, but at least they don't pocket your stuff on "accident." (yeah, I buy that whole "handler" thing..... NOT!)
I'm currently playing a halfling rogue in an active Golarion campaign that is modeled off the kender. Some may say annoying, but I'm having a blast with his naiveity and aloofness to the seriousness of the situation(s) at hand. :)
Well yeah, they're fun to play, TONS of fun to play, but they're NOT fun to have around.