Well, I’ve read through a lot of posts and threads concerning the Alchemist class. I’ve pondered what everyone has said, the arguments for and against many of the suggestions, and have amalgamated them into the following revamped version of the Alchemist class. A lot has stayed the same, some has changed, and a lot has been reorganized or reworded.
I was hoping that posting on the Pathfinder blogs would allow for color bold or color italics, but to no avail. So, as you read, take note of the following:
Entry titles that are bolded and not followed by a block of italics are unchanged from the original
Anything within an entry section or an entire entry itself that is italicized and bolded, or the entry title is bolded and followed by a block of italics is new or changed from the original.
I’ve only included the alchemist’s Special category from his class table, since everything else is unchanged. Changes on the table are bolded and italicized. Certain features are gone because they have been incorporated into one of the four Alchemy focuses described later on (bombs, extracts, mutagens, and poisons).
I am open to any suggestions.
DISCLAIMER A BIG thank you to all who offered suggestions and change ideas. If you see your ideas here, please note I am not trying to scam them. With so many suggestions, to note who offered what ideas would be ludicrous. So, again, thank you.
Also, sorry for the length, I've just started using the post codes, and also sorry for any difficulty in reading.
TABLE 3-1: ALCHEMIST
Level Special
1st Alchemy, bomb 1d6, infusions, throw anything
2nd Mutagen, poison use
3rd Bomb 2d6
4th Discovery, swift alchemy
5th Bomb 3d6
6th Discovery
7th Bomb 4d6
8th Discovery
9th Bomb 5d6
10th Discovery, quick alchemy
11th Bomb 6d6
12th Discovery
13th Bomb 7d6
14th Discovery
15th Bomb 8d6
16th Discovery
17th Bomb 9d6
18th Discovery, instant alchemy
19th Bomb 10d6
20th Grand Discovery
ALCHEMIST
Whether secreted away in a smoky basement laboratory or gleefully experimenting in a well-respected school of magic, the alchemist is often regarded as being just as unstable, unpredictable, and dangerous as the concoctions he brews. While some creators of alchemical items content themselves with sedentary lives as merchants, providing tindertwigs and smokesticks, the true alchemist answers a deeper calling. Rather than cast magic like a spellcaster, the alchemist captures his own magic potential within liquids and extracts he creates, infusing his chemicals with virulent power to grant him impressive skill with poisons, explosives, and all matter of self-transformative magic.
Role: The alchemist’s reputation is not softened by his exuberance (some would say dangerous recklessness) in perfecting his alchemical extracts and potion-like creations, infusing these substances with alchemic power siphoned from his aura and using his own body as experimental stock. Nor is it mollified by the alchemist’s almost gleeful passion for building explosive bombs and discovering strange new poisons and methods for their use. These traits, while making him a liability and risk for most civilized organizations and institutions of higher learning, seem to fit quite well with most adventuring groups.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills
The alchemist’s class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (any) (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the alchemist.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Alchemists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Alchemy (Ex or Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning alchemical potionlike extracts in which they can store spell-like effects. In effect, an alchemist prepares his “spells” by mixing mundane ingredients into a number of extracts, and then “casts” his spells by drinking the extract, or having another imbibe it. When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level to the Craft (alchemy) check.
An alchemist can create four special types of alchemical items—extracts, bombs, poisons, and mutagens.
Bombs are explosive splash weapons, extracts are alchemical potionlike concoctions that imitate the effects of spells, while poisons are substances that can harm or debilitate even the stoutest warrior. Mutagens are a bit more exotic, being transformative elixirs that the alchemist drinks to enhance his physical abilities. All of these alchemical items are detailed in their own sections below.
Extracts (Su): The alchemist does not cast spells, but instead creates a number of extracts that duplicate the effects of spells though an alchemical process. In many ways, extracts behave like spells in liquid form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist’s level as the caster level. Unlike potions, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not. This allows the alchemist to create extracts with effects far beyond those of potions.
An alchemist can create only a certain number of extracts of each level per day. His base daily allotment of extracts is given on Table 3–1. In addition, he receives bonus extracts per day if he has a high Intelligence score, in the same way a wizard receives bonus spells per day.
When an alchemist mixes an extract, he infuses the chemicals and reagents in the extract with a fraction of his own mystical energies. An extract becomes inert if it leaves the alchemist’s possession for a number of rounds equal to his level, allowing the alchemist to share his extracts with his allies. An inert extract reactivates as soon as it returns to his keeping. An extract, once created, remains potent for 1 day before becoming useless, so an alchemist must re-prepare his extracts every day. Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work. And while it is common for alchemists to prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, he just as often keeps some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed. Extracts are mostly complete when prepared, but only the alchemist knows the last few ingredients required to complete the mixture. As such, extracts can only be activated by the alchemist.
Although alchemists don’t actually cast spells, they do have a formulae list that determines what extracts they can create. An alchemist can utilize spelltrigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” either by throwing the vial as a grenade-like weapon, or by drinking it as if imbibing a potion. The effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell has a range of ranged touch attack and always takes a standard action to “cast”. Extracts can only affect the imbiber or the target that was hit with the ranged touch attack (an alchemist can also have the area centered where the vial landed). The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.
Creating extracts consumes raw materials, but the cost of these materials is insignificant—comparable to the valueless material components of most spells. If a spell normally has a costly material component, that component is consumed during the creation of that particular extract. Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement).
An alchemist may know any number of formulae. He must study his formulae ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his research journal. While studying, the alchemist recalls or retrieves which formulae he can spontaneously use for the day. He can then prepare an extract of any formula he has retrieved. To learn or use an extract, an alchemist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the extract’s level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an alchemist’s extract is 10 + the extract level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
An alchemist’s selection of extract formulae is extremely limited. An alchemist begins play retrieving four 0-level formulae and two 1st-level formulae of his choice, chosen from the alchemist formulae list. An alchemist can prepare any 0-level formulae he has retrieved an unlimited number of times per day, much like other spellcasters cast their cantrips (or 0-level spells).
At each new alchemist level, he can retrieve one or more new formulae per day, as indicated on Table 3–2. (Unlike extracts per day, the number of formulae an alchemist can retrieve is not affected by his Intelligence score—the numbers on Table 3–2 are fixed.) These new formulae can be common formulae chosen from the alchemist’s formulae list, or they can be unusual formulae that the alchemist has gained some understanding of through study, or adapted from the spells of other spellcasters (see the spell filch Potion Focus discovery).
TABLE 3-2: EXTRACT FORMULAE RETRIEVED
Formulae Retrieved
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 3 — — — — —
3rd 6 4 — — — — —
4th 6 4 2 — — — —
5th 6 4 3 — — — —
6th 6 4 4 — — — —
7th 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th 6 5 4 4 — — —
10th 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 4 — —
13th 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 4 —
16th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
Infusions: Alchemists learn a number of infusions, or 0-level extracts, as noted on Table 3–15 under “Extract Formulae Retrieved.” These infusions are “cast” like any other extract, through using it as a grendae-like weapon or imbibing, but they are not expended and may be used again.
Bomb (Ex): In addition to extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their initial method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Creating a bomb requires a move-equivalent action. However, because of his skill and mastery in combining volatile chemicals, an alchemist does not provoke an attack of opportunity as he infuses the catalyst vial with the final alchemical ingredients. Detonating a bomb (typically by throwing the vial of volatile liquid) is a standard action that utilizes the “Throw Splash Weapon” special attack (see page 202 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) and requires a ranged touch attack. On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The base damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level. Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage).
Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as focus discoveries (see below) as they level up.
Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
Research Journal: An alchemist uses a research journal to record his formulae in, much in the same way a wizard uses a spellbook. The alchemist must study his research journal each day to retrieve his formulae. He cannot prepare any formula not recorded in his research journal.
An alchemist begins play with a research journal containing all 0-level alchemist formulae, plus three 1st-level formulae of his choice. The alchemist also selects a number of additional 1st-level formulae equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the research journal. At each new alchemist level, he gains two new formulae of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new alchemist level) for his research journal.
At any time, an alchemist can also add formulae found in other alchemists’ research journals to his own (see Chapter 9 in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook), or those adapted from spellbooks or scrolls (see the Spell Filch extract focus discovery).
Mutagen (Su): At 2nd level, an alchemist discovers how to create a mutagen that he can imbibe in order to heighten his physical prowess at the cost of his personality. To brew a mutagen, an alchemist has researched and experimented upon himself, taking note of how certain ingredients affect his body. Thus, a mutagen is specifically attuned to him alone, and cannot be used by anyone else, including another alchemist. It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert.
When the alchemist brews a mutagen, he selects one physical ability score—either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. It’s a standard action to drink a mutagen. Upon being imbibed, the mutagen causes the alchemist to grow bulkier and more bestial, granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +2 enhancement bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per alchemist level. The alchemist takes 1d4 points of Charisma damage every time he drinks a mutagen.
A non-alchemist who drinks a mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen. The effects of a mutagen do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end.
Poison Use (Ex): Alchemists are trained in the use of poison and starting at 2nd level, cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a weapon.
Brew Potion: At 3rd level, the alchemist gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat. He can now create potions from his extracts, but at half the cost of other spellcasters. The alchemist otherwise follows the rules for creating potions as described in the Magic Item Creation section of Chapter 15 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
Discovery (Su): At 4th level, an alchemist must choose one of four alchemical veins as his primary focus–bombs, mutagens, poisons, or potions. Once this is done, he then begins to make incredible alchemical discoveries pertaining to his primary focus through study and research. An alchemist can choose 1 discovery from his primary focus and an additional discovery every 2 levels thereafter. Alternately, an alchemist can choose a discovery from any other focus, but his primary focus discoveries must always out number those from the others. An alchemist cannot select an individual discovery more than once. Some discoveries can only be made if the alchemist has met certain prerequisites first, such as uncovering other discoveries or attaining a certain level. The DC of any saving throw called for by a discovery is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
The following are the alchemist’s primary focuses and their related discoveries.
Focus (Bomb): Bomb related discoveries focus on enhancing, maintaining, or altering the strength, duration, or effect of an alchemist’s bombs.
Acid bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict acid damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from an acid bomb take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage 1 round later.
Concussive bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 6th level): When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict sonic damage. Concussive bombs deal 1d4 points of sonic damage, plus 1d4 points of sonic damage for every odd numbered level, instead of 1d6.
Delayed bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 8th level): The alchemist can place a bomb so that it explodes a number of rounds after the alchemist ceases contact with the bomb. This delay can be any number of rounds as chosen by the alchemist, up to a number of rounds equal to his level. If at any point the alchemist reclaims possession of the delayed bomb, he can end the timer and prevent the bomb’s detonation. A delayed bomb detonates immediately if any other creature attempts to touch or move it, or if the bomb’s contents are removed from the vial (such as if the vial breaks). The bomb deals damage as if it scored a direct hit to any creature in the square with the bomb when it detonates, and splash damage to all adjacent creatures as normal. Dispel magic can neutralize a delayed bomb, as can a successful Disable Device check (DC equals 10 + the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier).
Explosive bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 6th level): The alchemist’s bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is a full round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically extinguishes the flames.
Force bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 6th level): When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict force damage. Force bombs deal 1d4 points of force damage, plus 1d4 points of force damage for every odd numbered level, instead of 1d6. Creatures that take a direct hit from a force bomb are knocked prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save.
Frost bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict cold damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a frost bomb are staggered on their next turn unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.
Greater Bomb (requires the improved bomb discovery and the alchemist to be at least 8th level): The alchemist’s bomb is even more powerful. It now deals an additional 4d6 (or 4d4) damage.
Imbued Bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 6th level): The alchemist can create his bombs to be more accurate. When making a bomb, he may forfeit 1d6 worth of damage to grant the bomb a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. A bomb created in this fashion is a magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and effecting ethereal creatures. This enhancement bonus increases to +2 at 12th level, and +3 at 18th (the forfeited damage remains 1d6).
Improved Bomb: The alchemist’s bomb is more powerful. It now deals an additional 2d6 (or 2d4) damage.
Improved Explosives (requires the alchemist to have the explosive bomb discovery and be at least 16th level): The alchemist may choose to create bombs with a blast radius of 20 feet, with additional splash out for another 10.
Inferno bomb (requires the smoke bomb discovery and the alchemist to be at least 10th level): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb duplicate the effects of incendiary cloud instead of fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level.
Madness bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 8th level): The alchemist’s bombs do more than sear flesh—they sear the mind. A creature that takes a direct hit from a madness bomb takes damage from the bomb plus 1d4 points of Wisdom damage. Reduce the amount of normal damage dealt by the bomb by 2d6 (so a bomb that would normally deal 6d6+4 points of damage deals 4d6+4 points of damage instead). The amount of Wisdom damage dealt by a madness bomb is reduced by 1 for each madness bomb that hit the target in the past 24 hours, to a minimum of 1 point of Wisdom damage.
Poison bomb (requires the smoke bomb discovery and the alchemist to be at least 6th level): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb duplicates the effects of cloudkill instead of fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level.
Precise Bomber (requires the alchemist to be at least 12th level): The alchemist effectively gains Improved Critical (splash weapons) as a bonus feat, allowing him to score a critical hit on a 19-20 with his targeted bombs.
Shock bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict electricity damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a shock bomb are dazzled for 1d4 rounds.
Smoke bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it create a cloud of thick smoke when it detonates. The cloud functions as fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level.
Sticky bomb (requires the alchemist to be at least 8th level): The effects of the alchemist’s bombs are persistent and continue to damage creatures for 1 round after the initial damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a sticky bomb take the damage again 1 round later. Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later.
Stink bomb (requires the smoke bomb discovery): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb can duplicate the effects of stinking cloud instead of fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round.
Sustain Bomb: The alchemist can briefly maintain the power of a bomb after it leaves his person. The alchemist may give a bomb to someone else to throw, and it will retain its full strength for up to 1 minute per alchemist level. This effort is taxing for the alchemist, so he may only maintain one bomb in this fashion at a time. At 10th level, the alchemist can sustain a second bomb, and at 16th, he can sustain a third.
Ultimate Bomb (requires the greater bomb discovery and the alchemist to be at least 16th level): The alchemist’s bomb now deals twice its damage amount.
Focus (Extract): Extract related discoveries focus on enhancing or altering extracts and potions, or developing new ones with amazing effects.
Dilution (requires the alchemist to be at least 8th level): Once per day, the alchemist can dilute any one potion or elixir, creating two doses of the same potion from one. Diluting a potion costs a number of gp equal to one-quarter of the potion’s market value. A potion that has been diluted cannot be diluted again. This discovery cannot be used to dilute extracts or mutagens.
Elixir of life (requires the alchemist to have the improved brewing discovery and be at least 16th level): Once per day, the alchemist can brew an elixir of life. This special concoction costs 25,000 gp to create and takes 1 hour of work. An elixir of life, when administered by the alchemist who brewed it, restores life to a dead creature as per the spell true resurrection. Alternatively, the alchemist himself may drink the elixir of life, after which point he is immediately targeted with a resurrection spell the next time he is killed. Used in this manner, the effects of an elixir of life persist only for a number of days equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier; if he does not die before that time expires, the effects of the elixir of life end.
Enhance potion: A number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier, the alchemist can cause any potion he drinks to function at a caster level equal to his class level.
Eternal potion (requires the alchemist to have the extend potion discovery and be at least 14th level): If an alchemist drinks a potion that he extends, the effects of that potion become permanent until he chooses to make another potion effect permanent.
Extend potion: A number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier, the alchemist can cause any potion he drinks that does not have an instantaneous duration to function at twice its normal duration.
Improved brewing (requires the alchemist to be at least 8th level): An alchemist can use Brew Potion to create potions from any formula of 4th level or higher, including any formulae he has adapted from another spellcasters’ spells (see the spell filch discovery). In addition, the alchemist has developed cost saving measures that allow him to create potions at half the cost of other spellcasters.
Persistent extract: The time an extract remains potent once it leaves the alchemist’s possession increases to a number of minutes per level of the alchemist.
Spell filch (requires the alchemist to be at least 10th level): An alchemist can adapt a spell from a spellbook or scroll he has deciphered into a formula. To decipher a spell, the alchemist must first make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level;. If the check is successful, the alchemist can then make a Craft (alchemy) check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) to adapt the spell into an alchemy formula that he can write into his research journal. (If the initial Spellcraft check fails, see Arcane Magical Writings on page 218 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook). Once the alchemist has transcribed the new formula into his research journal, he can use it to create new extract or brew an equivalent potion, just like any other formula he has in his formulae list.
Focus (Mutagen): Mutagen related discoveries focus on developing new ways to improve or maintain the potency of mutagenic effects, or create new and astonishing transformations.
Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Grand mutagen (requires the alchemist to have the greater mutagen discovery and be at least 14th level): The alchemist’s mutagen now grants a +6 natural armor bonus, a +6 enhancement bonus to the chosen ability score, a +4 enhancement bonus to a second physical ability score, and a +2 enhancement bonus to a third physical ability score.
Greater mutagen (an alchemist must be at least 8th level to select this discovery): The alchemist’s mutagen now grants a +4 natural armor bonus, a +4 enhancement bonus to the chosen ability score, and a +2 enhancement bonus to a second physical ability score.
Infuse mutagen: When the alchemist creates a mutagen, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. This inflicts 2 points of Intelligence damage to the alchemist and costs 1,000 gp in rare reagents, but the mutagen created persists on its own and is not rendered inert if the alchemist creates another mutagen. This allows an alchemist to create different types of mutagens and keep them handy for emergencies. This does not allow an alchemist to gain the effects of multiple mutagens—only the most recently imbibed mutagen has any effect.
Persistent mutagen (requires the alchemist to be at least 12th level): The effects of a mutagen last for 1 hour per level.
Transfer Mutagen (requires the alchemist to have the infuse mutagen discovery and be at least 10th level): The alchemist can choose to brew a mutagen for a creature other than himself. Because he is less familiar with physiology not his own, the bonuses the mutagen provides are halved, but it otherwise functions identically.
Focus (Poison): Poison related discoveries focus on increasing the duration, strength and lethality of toxins, combining them to create new effects, or developing new ones with a variety of debilitating and deadly qualities.
[b[]Poison resistance: An alchemist gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against poison.
Improved poison resistance (requires the alchemist to have the poison resistance discovery and be at least 6th level): An alchemist’s bonus on all saving throws against poison increases to +4.
Greater poison resistance (requires the alchemist to have the improved poison resistance discovery and be at least 8th level): An alchemist’s bonus on all saving throws against poison increases to +6.
Poison immunity (requires the alchemist to have the greater poison resistance discovery and be at least 12th level): An alchemist becomes completely immune to poison.[/b]
Sticky poison (requires the alchemist to be at least 6th level): Any poison the alchemist creates is sticky—when the alchemist applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
Swift poisoning (requires the alchemist to be at least 6th level): An alchemist can apply a dose of poison to a weapon as a swift action.
Venom of fire (requires the alchemist to be at least 10th level): The alchemist can spend 1 additional minute converting the caustic material of his bomb into a deadly variety of poison. Instead of normal damage, the bomb deals 1 hp of damage per alchemist level of whatever energy type it originally dealt (cold, fire, etc.) once per round, for a total of 1d4+2 rounds. In addition, the bomb deals 1 point of Constitution damage per round. The target can make a single Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist level + his Intelligence modifier) ends the damage. Failure results in the damage continuing for its full duration.
Swift Alchemy (Ex): At 4th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with astounding speed, including those that are part of his class features. It takes an alchemist half the normal amount of time to create alchemical items, and he can apply poison to a weapon as a move-equivalent action. An extract now takes 4 rounds to concoct, and mutagen takes but 45 minutes to brew.
Quick Alchemy (Ex): At 10th level the Alchemist can create alchemical items at only a fourth of the time. An extract now takes 2 rounds to concoct, a bomb requires only a swift action to create, and mutagen takes but 30 minutes to brew.
Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action. Likewise, mixing an extract now takes 1 round, an alchemist can create 2 of the same type of bomb as a swift action (a single bomb still takes only a swift action), and to brew a mutagen takes only 15 minutes.
Grand Discovery (Su): At 20th level, the alchemist makes a grand discovery. He immediately learns two normal discoveries, one of which must be related to his primary focus, but also learns a third discovery chosen from the list below.
Awakened Intellect: The alchemist’s Intelligence score permanently increases by 2 points.
Eternal Youth: The alchemist has conquered aging, and from this point forward suffers no penalty to his physical ability scores from advanced age. If the alchemist is already suffering such penalties, they are removed at this time.
Fast Healing: The alchemist gains fast healing 5.
Philosopher’s Stone: The alchemist learns how to create a philosopher’s stone, and can do so once per month at no cost. Creating a philosopher’s stone takes 1 day of work.
Poison Touch: The alchemist gains a poisonous touch, as if under the effects of a poison spell. He can suppress or activate this ability as a free action.
True Mutagen: The alchemist’s mutagen now grants a +8 bonus to his natural armor score and a +6 enhancement bonus to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
ALCHEMIST FORMULAE
0-Level Alchemist Formulae
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
Daze: Humanoid creature of 4 HD or less loses next action.
Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
Flare: Dazzles one creature (–1 on attack rolls).
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Know Direction: You discern north.
Light: Object shines like a torch.
Mage Hand: 5-pound telekinesis.
Message: Whisper conversation at distance.
Prestidigitation: Performs minor tricks.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Stabilize: Cause a dying creature to stabilize.
Touch of Fatigue: Touch attack fatigues target.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
1st-Level Alchemist Formulae
Charm Person: Makes one person your friend.
Comprehend Languages: You understand all languages.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage + 1/level (max +5).
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Disguise Self: Changes your appearance.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold regions.
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Expeditious Retreat: Your base land speed increases by 30 ft.
Feather Fall: Objects or creatures fall slowly.
Grease: Makes 10-ft. square or one object slippery.
Hypnotism: Fascinates 2d4 HD of creatures.
Identify: Gives +10 bonus to identify magic items.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size.
Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.
2nd-Level Alchemist Formulae
Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Alter Self: Assume form of a Small or Medium humanoid.
Barkskin: Grants +2 (or higher) enhancement to natural armor.
Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Blur: Attacks miss subject 20% of the time.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage + 1/level (max +10).
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Darkvision: See 60 ft. in total darkness.
Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming target for 1 hour/level.
Detect Thoughts: Allows “listening” to surface thoughts.
Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./ level.
Enthrall: Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
False Life: Gain 1d10 temporary hp + 1/level (max +10).
Fox’s Cunning: Subject gains +4 to Int for 1 min./level.
Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Protection from Arrows: Subject gains DR 10/magic against ranged attacks.
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke.
Resist Energy: Ignores first 10 (or more) points of damage per attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius.
Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
3rd-Level Alchemist Formulae
Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Beast Shape I: You take the form and some of the powers of a Small or Medium animal.
Charm Monster: Makes monster believe it is your ally.
Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage + 1/level (max +15).
Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Displacement: Attacks miss subject 50% of the time.
Fear: Subjects within cone f lee for 1 round/level.
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
Gaseous Form: Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly.
Haste: One creature/level moves faster, receives +1 on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves.
Heroism: Gives +2 on attack rolls, saves, skill checks.
NondetectionM: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Protection from Energy: Absorbs 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Rage: Gives +2 to Str and Con, +1 on Will saves, –2 to AC.
Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical blindness or deafness.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, –1 to AC, Reflex saves, and attack rolls.
Tongues: Speak and understand any language.
Water Breathing: Subjects can breathe underwater.
4th-Level Alchemist Formulae
Air Walk: Subject treads on air as if solid (climb or descend at 45-degree angle).
Arcane Eye: Invisible floating eye moves 30 ft./round.
Beast Shape II: You take the form and some of the powers of a Tiny or Large animal.
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, transmutations, and curses.
Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage + 1/level (max +20).
Death Ward: Grants bonuses against death spells and negative energy.
Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Elemental Body I: Turns you into a Small elemental.
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments to restrict movement.
Hold Monster: As hold person, but any creature.
Invisibility, Greater: As invisibility, but subject can attack and stay invisible.
Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Poison: Touch deals 1d3 Con damage 1/round for 6 rounds.
RestorationM: Restores level and ability score drains.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per 4 levels.
StoneskinM: Grants DR 10/adamantine.
5th-Level Alchemist Formulae
Beast Shape III: You take the form of a Diminutive or Huge animal, or Small or Medium magical beast.
Contact Other Plane: Lets you ask question of extraplanar entity.
Dream: Sends message to anyone sleeping.
Elemental Body II: Turns you into a Medium elemental.
Irresistible Dance: Forces subject to dance.
Magic JarF: Enables possession of another creature.
Mind Fog: Subjects in fog get –10 to Wis and Will checks.
Nightmare: Sends vision dealing 1d10 damage, fatigue.
Overland Flight: You f ly at a speed of 40 ft. and can hustle over long distances.
Plant Shape I: Turns you into a Small or Medium plant.
Polymorph: Gives one willing subject a new form.
Restoration, GreaterM: As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Sending: Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
6th-Level Alchemist Formulae
Analyze DweomerF: Reveals magical aspects of subject.
Beast Shape IV: You take the form of a Diminutive to Huge animal or a Tiny to Large magical beast.
Breath of Life: Cures 5d8 damage + 1/level and restores life to recently slain creatures.
Elemental Body III: Turns you into a Large elemental.
Eyebite: Target becomes panicked, sickened, and/or comatose.
Form of the Dragon I: Turns you into a Medium dragon.
Giant Form I: Turns you into a Large giant.
Heal: Cures 10 points/level damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.
Plant Shape II: Turns you into a Large plant creature.
Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Shadow Walk: Step into shadow to travel rapidly.
Statue: Subject can become a statue at will.
Stone to Flesh: Restores petrified creature.
TransformationM: You gain combat bonuses.
True SeeingM: Lets you see all things as they really are.
Wind Walk: You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
This will require mulling over.
Offhand, I am not a fan of turning the alchemist into a wizard with a spell book and copying spells. Your idea of Spell Filching is flawed in that if they have a scroll of any spell ever they can make it into a formulae. I know your idea is to have the Alchemist get access to other spells, but this would literally let them have any spell that is on a scroll from any class or caster type.
Not to be too fussy about it, but a bunch of your new abilities and class changes were ripped word for word from this thread. It's not that hard to scan it and give credit where it's due ;).
Good work compiling it all, though. Saves me the trouble.
Now, to the actual content:
-Extract spellbook: bad idea. As Scipion del Ferro says, access to that many spells is entirely too potent for the class to be permitted it. Limited but switchable daily extract access is as contrived as the current 'extracts known' list, just a lot more versatile (ergo powerful). You aren't fixing any flavor issues by changing how their extracts work, just making them a lot stronger.
-Alchemical Focus: interesting idea to channel people into one particular vein of alchemy, but I'm not convinced there's sufficient options in each focus, or sufficient reason to force a choice like this on characters.
-Poison focus: Underpowered, lacks options, except for venom of fire... which you tacked on con damage onto, making it too good. Different types of poison should clearly be different discoveries, and con damage should clearly be among the more advanced.
-Mutagen focus: lacks options. There's no excuse for not expanding this list, especially since you're suggesting an alchemist would want to specialize in it. Also, you've completely missed a good opportunity to fix some of the problems with mutagens. Check out this thread to see what I'm talking about.
-Accelerated alchemy: good expansion on existing class abilities, and it's nice that you apply it to each branch of alchemy.
-Expanded spell list: generally good choices, but since you've included ranged extract bombing in the core abilities, you could have done more with it.
Will respond with fixes to some of these issues later on, when I have more time.
Great improvement from the original class.
I want to make some comments on this. Good compilation! Now to my thoughts:
Enhancing the blast radius of bombs could be moved to a lower level. I think moving access to sonic and force bombs should be moved higher, and also given a limit? Since those are the least resisted, why make anything else once you can make those?
extra bomb damage- keep in mind most builds seem to be using vital strike to enhance damage, how would these impact with that feat?
Need an option for bombs to only strike the target without a splash. ( so companions are safe. Like selective channeling only targets friends. Some sort of sculpting ability to only hit enemies? Or to only hit target?)
discoveries- extra options are great, and more gained by the class is needed. I don't see the need to create specialties with it though. I think players will do that on their own anyway.
Need a way to add trapfinding. If you don't want to add it directly to the class, it could be an option through: a discovery or a new feat?
skill points- with an int class, 4+ may be enough. Otherwise it might step on the rogue too much.
I like adding to the spell/formulae list, but taking from any scroll is too much.
I like adding potion crafting. If it seems too powerful to just tack on the feat, make it a class ability instead, allowing 1st level potions at 1st(or low level), and add on 2nd and 3rd level potions at higher levels. I don't think this would be too overpowering, as there is still crafting time/gp costs as normal.
new feat suggestions: extra bombs, something to give +1 skill point/level
I would love to see a huge pile of feats in the new book giving new options for ALL the base classes.
First, I know there is a lot of info here, and my reason for putting everything into one thread was to compile it in one place. These were the primary suggestions I had seen in a number of threads, and yes most are from the threads you linked to, Maeloke (and a lot were your's specifically, so ther's your kudos).
I personally love the whole alchemist class idea, and like the way it is, but want to see it improved in many of the ways sugeested. I realise he's too powerful at the current revamped version I've posted. Now, hopefully, with everuone's help we can wittle him down to a more balanced, fun, and exciting class for those who want to play him.
As for the lack of discoveries in some of the focuses, I haven't had time to come up with any. Hopefully over the next few weeks we can all start suggesting new discoveries, feats, and whatever else.
The alchemist as is (in the Playtest) is pretty good, but we need to figure out what really doesn't work, what does, and what needs to be tweaked, changed or kept.
One thing I'm having a hard time with is figuring out what to do with the poisons. Do we use the poison list in the PF Core Rulebook and lower their prices/construction costs significantly, or do we come up with alternate, alchemical-based ones for the Alchemist class specifically.
I certainly think access to a basic extract, bomb, poison, and mutagen related features, then allow characters to then focus on what they want to.
I like the research journal idea. Logical and flavorful. The boosted spell list also makes sense.
However, giving access to all spells seems over the top. I can't remember where it was, but hogarth's suggestion was good. His suggestions was to give the Alkie access to certain shools, and/or spells with a range of self, I believe.
About the Alchemical focus. I like it, but there should be an option to take a more "universalist" route, and might I recommend an actual advantage for specializing? Like, a reduced required level for the discoveries of that route. As for the generalist, I can't think of anything.
Poison/Mutagen foci: I don't really know what to say, since I can't judge it's power. (Haven't played this game enough, and haven't playtested the Alkie, yet.)
That's about it. Overall, it's good.
I'm still a fan of the Evolution Point Mutagen idea. Makes them something that you can build a class around.
I'm still a fan of the Evolution Point Mutagen idea. Makes them something that you can build a class around.
I agree that the evolution tree would make sense, however, since it already belongs to the summoner class, it's best to leave it with summoners. How ever, many transmutation spells could be implemented for these ideas. I mostly prefer to just look though the ability glossary in the core rules for ideas.
I agree that the evolution tree would make sense, however, since it already belongs to the summoner class, it's best to leave it with summoners. How ever, many transmutation spells could be implemented for these ideas. I mostly prefer to just look though the ability glossary in the core rules for ideas.
I wouldn't say it "belongs" to the Summoner. If anything having it be a part of this class would justify the huge amount of page space all those rules are taking up without increasing any page space for the Alchemist. There are a lot of people who are really attracted to the Summoner because of the evolution thing, working it into another class would only make this book a more attractive purchase.
I myself really like the Eidelon but don't care particularly for the Summoner.
A couple of points, though I can't go over everythint since I'm posting from a phone.
1. I don't like the focus mechanic. If I want to cherry pick from all focuses for some versatility, I should be allowed to.
2. Mutagens still suck. They need a natural progression w/o discoveries, and they need to be alchemical bonuses, so as to not be rendered pointless by items. And the Cha damage either needs to not be there, or it needs to be a set penalty that wears off with the mutagen.
3. The true mutagen discovery still makes mutafens made by an alchemist who never dabbled with them until that ability just as good as the focused alchemist. That just isn't fair.
I have more, but trying to work from the phone is difficult, so it must wait.
Well, I had a lot of this completed before the thread here went up, but I've polished the rest up and hopefully compiled it coherently. It may want it's own thread, but I'm posting it here for now for comparison's sake.
My head is starting to hurt from holding all the cross-synergies in mind, so it's definitely time to let someone else take a look:
Alternative Alchemist Rebuild:
Class skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (any (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).
Extracts per test document
1: Alchemy, potion proficiency, bomb 1d6
2: Discovery, Mutagen, poison resistance +2
3: Bomb 2d6, swift alchemy
4: Discovery, ranged throw
5: Bomb 3d6, poison resistance +4
6: Discovery
7: Bomb 4d6, evasion
8: Discovery, poison resistance +6
9: Bomb 5d6,
10: Advanced Discoveries, poison immunity
11: Bomb 6d6, distant throw
12: Discovery
13: Bomb 7d6
14: Discovery
15: Bomb 8d6
16: Discovery
17: Bomb 9d6, instant alchemy
18: Discovery
19: Bomb 10d6
20: Grand Discovery
Since they are maintained by the alchemist's aura, extracts lose their potence almost immediately upon leaving his person. For this reason, only extracts thrown or drunk by the alchemist function (but see the Sustain Extract discovery below)
Since they are maintained by the alchemist's aura, bombs lose their potence almost immediately upon leaving his person. For this reason, only bombs thrown by the alchemist explode (but see the Sustain Bomb discovery below).
Bombs deal 1d6 fire damage at 1st level, plus an additional d6 at every odd level thereafter.
While the alchemist is under the effects of a mutagen, he suffers a -4 penalty to charisma, may not use any int- or cha-based skills, and may not take any action that requires patience or concentration (including creating extracts and bombs). After the mutagen's effects wear off, the alchemist is fatigued for 10 minutes. Like bombs and extracts, an alchemist's mutagen is only effective when used by the alchemist himself.
Mutagenic discoveries can improve the effects of an alchemist's mutagen.
Concussive Bomb (Su): When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict sonic damage. Concussive bombs deal 1d4 points of sonic damage, plus 1d4 points of sonic damage for every odd-numbered level, instead of 1d6.
Controlled Blast (Ex): Whenever the alchemist throws a bomb and strikes his intended target, he may choose to deal no splash damage to a number of creatures in the splash radius equal to his intelligence modifier. This ability will not apply if the bomb misses it's original target.
Energy Bomb (Su): The alchemist chooses cold, acid, electricity, or fire. He may brew bombs that deal this variety of energy damage, and enemies directly hit by such bombs take an additional 1d6 damage of the appropriate type per round until they spend a full round action to extinguish, shake off, or otherwise end the effect. Fire bombs modified in this way deal an additional 1d6 damage on initial impact.
Energy Venom (Su): Three times per day, the alchemist may spend one minute converting an unspent bomb into a poison. The poison denatures in 24 hours, and does not function when removed from the alchemist's presence, just like a bomb. The alchemist must be level 4 or higher and have taken the energy bomb discovery to select this ability.
Type: injury, Save: fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 alchemist level + int modifier, Frequency: 1/round for 6 rounds, Effect: 2 damage per die of converted bomb (acid, cold, fire, and shock bombs deal appropriate energy damage. Force and Sonic bombs deal untyped damage), Cure: 1 save.
Enhance Extract (Su): The alchemist selects one metamagic feat. He may apply this feat to any extract he brews, increasing it's effective level as appropriate. If the alchemist has the Mix Potion discovery, he may apply this metamagic effect to potions he brews. The alchemist may take this discovery multiple times, selecting a different metamagic feat each time.
Explosive Bomb (Su): The alchemist's bombs have a splash radius of 10 ft., rather than 5. The alchemist deals extra damage equal to his intelligence modifier to the target and all creatures in the splash radius (this stacks with the damage from the potion proficiency ability). The alchemist must be level 4 or higher to select his discovery.
Heart Venom (Su): Three times per day, the alchemist may spend one minute converting an unspent bomb into poison that attacks the fundamental health of a creature. The poison denatures in 24 hours, and does not function when removed from the alchemist's presence, just like a bomb. The alchemist must be level 8 or higher and have either the madness venom or torpor venom discoveries to select this discovery.
Type: injury, Save: fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 alchemist level + int modifier, Frequency: 1/round for 4 rounds, Effect: 1d4 con, Cure: 1 save.
Improved Bomb (Su): The alchemist's bomb damage die increases to a d8. Bomb variations that reduce the damage to d4s instead reduce it to d6s. The alchemist must be level 6 or higher to select this discovery.
Madness Venom (Su): Three times per day, the alchemist may spend one minute converting an unspent bomb into poison that attacks the target's sanity. The poison denatures in 24 hours, and does not function when removed from the alchemist's presence, just like a bomb.
Type: injury, Save: fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 alchemist level + int modifier, Frequency: 1/round for 4 rounds, Effect: 1d4 wis or cha, Cure: 1 save.
Mix Potion (Ex): The alchemist effectively gains the brew potion feat, and may brew any extract he knows into a potion as though he were a spellcaster of his alchemist level. The alchemist is limited to a maximum of 3rd level spells, but if he has the Enhance Extract discovery, he may apply those effects to his potions (increasing their level up to his current maximum, with commensurate increase in cost).
Mutagenic Breath (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist may choose to drink his prepared bombs and expel them as uses of a breath weapon (15 ft. cone, damage = bomb damage and type, reflex DC 10 + 1/2 alchemist level + int modifier for half, usable every third round). He may have up to 1 bomb stored in his system for every 4 levels, but if any remain when the mutagen expires, they deal full damage to the alchemist with no save.
Mutagenic Claws (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist gains two primary claw attacks that deal 1d6 damage (1d4 if small, 1d8 if large).
Mutagenic Grasp (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist gains the grab ability, a +2 bonus to CMB and CMD while grappling, and a climb speed of 30 ft. The bonus to CMB and CMD increase by 2 for every 6 levels the alchemist has. The alchemist must have the mutagenic claws discovery to select this discovery.
Mutagenic Growth (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist increases his size by one size category. He gains a +2 size bonus to strength and natural armor, a -2 penalty to dexterity, and gains reach 10 ft, in addition to all other standard size-based benefits and penalties. The alchemist's equipment increases in size as he does. This increase in size does not stack with other similar effects such as the Enlarge Person spell. The alchemist must be level 8 or higher to select this discovery.
Mutagenic Jaws (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist gains a primary bite attack that deals 1d8 damage (1d6 if small, 2d6 if large) plus 1 1/2 his strength modifier.
Poisoner (Ex): The alchemist never risks exposing himself to poison when applying it or attacking with a poisoned weapon, and can apply a poison to a weapon as a move action. The alchemist can harvest a single dose of poison from a slain poisonous creature by making a Craft (Alchemy) check at a DC = 10 + the creature's HD.
Refine Mutagen (Su): The alchemist gains an additional 2 points to increase ability scores or natural armor when he brews a mutagen. The alchemist may select this discovery once for every 6 levels he has, and its effects are cumulative.
Smoke Bomb (Su): As the test document
Stink Bomb (Su): As the test document (prereq: Smoke bomb)
Sustain Bomb (Su): The alchemist can briefly maintain the power of a bomb after it leaves his person. The alchemist may give a bomb to someone else to throw, and it will retain it's full strength for up to 1 hour per alchemist level. This effort is taxing for the alchemist, so he may only maintain one bomb in this fashion at a time. At 10th level, the alchemist can sustain a second bomb, and at 16th, he can sustain a third. The alchemist must be level 4 or higher to select this discovery.
Sustain Extract (Su): The alchemist can briefly maintain the power of an extract after it leaves his person. The alchemist may give an extract to someone else to throw or drink, and it will retain it's full strength for up to 1 hour per alchemist level. The alchemist can sustain one extract in this fashion at a time, plus a second at 8th level, a third at 14th level, and a fourth at level 20.
Sustain Venom (Su): The alchemist can briefly maintain the power of a poison created via a class ability after it leaves his person. The alchemist may give a vial of venom to someone else or apply it to someone else's weapon, and it will retain it's full strength for up to 1 hour per alchemist level. The alchemist can sustain one dose of poison in this fashion at a time, plus a second at 12th level, a third at 18th level. The alchemist must be level 6 or higher to select this discovery.
Torpor Venom (Su): Three times per day, the alchemist may spend one minute converting an unspent bomb into poison that attacks the limbs. The poison denatures in 24 hours, and does not function when removed from the alchemist's presence, just like a bomb
Type: injury, Save: fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 alchemist level + int modifier, Frequency: 1/round for 4 rounds, Effect: 1d4 str or dex, Cure: 1 save.
Concoction (Su): The alchemist may choose to brew especially potent extracts. Three times per day when the alchemist brews an extract, he may choose to combine the vial with a second extract, bomb, mutagen, or poison he has created. Whenever such a vial is used (thrown, drank, applied, etc) the target is subject to both effects. The alchemist must be level 16 or higher to select this discovery
Extended Mutagen (Su): The alchemist can brew his mutagens to last up to 1 hour per level. The alchemist must be level 14 or higher to select this discovery.
Force Bomb (Su): The alchemist can brew his bombs to deal 1d4 force damage for each odd level instead of fire. Such bombs strike and injure incorporeal creatures without penalty, and creatures who take a direct hit from a force bomb are knocked prone unless they succeed at a reflex save.
Greater Bomb (Su): The alchemist may choose to brew bombs that deal d10s for damage instead of d8s. The alchemist must be level 14 and already have the improved bomb discovery to select this discovery.
Greater Explosion (Su): The alchemist may choose to brew bombs that deal full damage to a 10 ft. radius burst, with splash out for another 10 ft. The alchemist must already have the Explosive Bomb discovery and be level 16 to select this discovery.
Improved Mutagenic Breath (Su): The alchemist's breath ability improves. It creates a 40 ft. cone and is usable every round. The alchemist can also maintain any number of bombs in his system at once - although the effects of a mutagen expiring remain unchanged, so he should do so with caution. The alchemist must be level 12 and have the mutagenic breath discovery to select this discovery.
Improved Poison (Ex): The alchemist selects either +2 save DC, d6 damage, +2 duration, or +1 save to cure. Whenever the alchemist creates a poison using a discovery class ability, he may choose to apply this feature to the poison's attributes. The alchemist may select this discovery more than once, choosing a different effect each time, and may apply all effects he knows to any poison he creates.
Inferno Bomb (Su): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb duplicate the effects of Incendiary Cloud instead of Fog Cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level. Clouds created by bombs that dealt acid, cold, or electricity damage deal that type of damage, rather than fire. The alchemist must be level 16 and have the smoke bomb discovery to select this discovery.
Master Brewer (Su): When making use of the mix potion discovery, the alchemist can create potions without spending money on material components (he must still expend XP as usual).
Master Poisoner (Ex): The alchemist can apply poison to a weapon as a swift action. He may also create 2 additional daily doses of any poison created with a discovery ability. The alchemist must be level 16 and have the poisoner discovery to select this discovery.
Mutagenic Calm (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist may use int- and cha-based skills, and perform activities that require concentration and patience.
Mutagenic Hide (Su): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist gains DR 3/-. The alchemist must be level 12 or higher to select this discovery.
Mutagenic Venom (Ex): While under the effects of a mutagen, the alchemist may drink up to 3 doses of poison. He may then secrete these doses onto any of his natural weapons as a swift action. The alchemist must be level 12 and have the poisoner discovery to select this discovery.
Precise Throw (Ex): The alchemist can throw with exceptional accuracy. He scores a critical hit with an attack roll of 19-20 with any thrown bomb, extract, potion, or alchemical item.
Refined Poison (Ex): The alchemist may convert any poison he creates with an alchemist class discovery ability to a contact or ingested poison. Contact poisons can be thrown to affect a target just like an extract or bomb. Ingested poisons must be fed to their target directly by the alchemist, unless he has the sustain poison discovery. The alchemist may modify poisons created in this fashion to have an onset delay of up to 1 hour, and save frequencies of 1/round, 1/minute, or 1/10 minutes.
Sticky Poison (Ex): Whenever the alchemist applies poison to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to his intelligence modifier.
Wrack Venom (Su): Three times per day, the alchemist may spend one minute converting an unspent bomb into poison that attacks multiple systems. The poison denatures in 24 hours, and does not function when removed from the alchemist's presence, just like a bomb. The alchemist must be level 12 and already have the heart venom discovery to select this discovery.
Type: injury, Save: fortitude DC 10 + 1/2 alchemist level + int modifier, Frequency: 1/round for 4 rounds, Effect: 1d4 to any two ability scores, Cure: 1 save.
Awakened Intellect: The alchemist’s Intelligence score permanently increases by 2 points.
Eternal Youth: The alchemist has conquered aging, and from this point forward suffers no penalty to his physical ability scores from advanced age. If the alchemist is already suffering such penalties, they are removed at this time.
Fast Healing: The alchemist gains fast healing 5.
Philosopher’s Stone: The alchemist learns how to create a philosopher’s stone, and can do so once per month at no cost. Creating a philosopher’s stone takes 1 day of work.
Poison Touch: The alchemist gains a poisonous touch, functioning as a contact version of any poison he is capable of creating. He can change the type each day, and suppress or activate this ability as a free action.
Pyromaniac: The alchemist may create any number of bombs per day, their damage increases by one die type (to a maximum of d12), and he can throw them with a range increment of 80 ft.
True Mutagen: The alchemist gains 4 additional points to increase ability scores and natural armor with his mutagen. The mutagen no longer penalizes cha, and the alchemist may dismiss and resume it's function at will for the length of it's duration.
1: Calm Animals, Grease, Hypnotism, Light, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep
2: Animal Trance, Darkness, Daze Monster, Shatter
3: Daylight, Deep Slumber, Ray of Exhaustion
4: Confusion, Contagion, Poison
5: Baleful Polymorph, Blight, Mind Fog
6: Circle of Death, Harm
Observations:
-Did away with Infusion; too dangerous with offensive extracts in the mix. This alchemist is much worse party support, much better in his own right. For replacement ability, see Sustain Extract discovery.
-Mutagen scales up with levels.
-Mutagen discoveries kept to a very minimal Mr Hyde sort of transformation - no flying space dragon potions. Want more, take Concoction discovery and mix mutagen with Beast Shape or Polymorph.
-Mechanics in place for non-bombing-focused alchemists to make use of bomb progression. Happy for more suggestions in this vein if you got 'em.
-Also attempted to create discoveries to bridge different alchemy branches - poison + mutagen, extracts + bombs, etc. Not sure if there's enough, or if it's even a good idea.
-Ranged extract list is skeletal. Added just enough to give the proper gist: No spells that require giving creatures commands (not appropriate) or choosing multiple targets (not feasible). Focused on simple enchantment and necromancy, inclined to add transmutation as well. Omitted Disintegrate 'cause... well, it just outstrips the scope of alchemist damage.
I would drop completely the "alchemist aura" thing. It's just to justify the mechanics and doesn't make any sense at all. Just like: "the eidolon can't wear armor because his form shifts".
We could just say that the extract/bomb is completed by the alchemist (as a free action) and becomes unstable within one round. Even having those last a day and being usable by everyone wouldn't be overpowered IMO.
Those are great ideas, Maeloke. I'll have to study them over more thoroughly and ponder them. i had posted last night, but of course, the post didn't work, so I'll need to rewrite it later and post it. When I've go the time. Good work.
I would drop completely the "alchemist aura" thing. It's just to justify the mechanics and doesn't make any sense at all. Just like: "the eidolon can't wear armor because his form shifts".
We could just say that the extract/bomb is completed by the alchemist (as a free action) and becomes unstable within one round. Even having those last a day and being usable by everyone wouldn't be overpowered IMO.
The thing is, controlling alchemist power is going to be contrived no matter what way you slice it. Either they do some sort of magic to their extracts, or they add arbitrary final ingredients that nobody else can, or they've got an aura, or they're the only ones who know how to handle the things, etc.
Honestly, I'm far more bothered by the image of an alchemist doing sophisticated potion-mixing mid-combat as a standard-move-swift-free action than I am by the alchemist doing the work beforehand and maintaining the stuff with a bit of magic.
Sharing without limit might be okay for an unspecialized alchemist (albeit risky), but when they have the option to create bombs, extracts, mutagens, (and poisons, for my build) as potent as they do, it's definitely untenable. Alchemist is way too prone to nova out his daily abilities, and in so doing, absolutely wreck what would otherwise be balanced encounters.
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How about a discovery that increases the number of consecutive saves needed to resist a poison by 1? Call it [Persistent Poison], or something to that extent. It seems to reason that an Alchemist that specialized in making poisons would be able to make far deadlier poisons than your standard apothecary.
How about a discovery that increases the number of consecutive saves needed to resist a poison by 1? Call it [Persistent Poison], or something to that extent. It seems to reason that an Alchemist that specialized in making poisons would be able to make far deadlier poisons than your standard apothecary.
See Improved Poison under Advanced Discoveries in my rebuild :)
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How about a discovery that increases the number of consecutive saves needed to resist a poison by 1? Call it [Persistent Poison], or something to that extent. It seems to reason that an Alchemist that specialized in making poisons would be able to make far deadlier poisons than your standard apothecary.See Improved Poison under Advanced Discoveries in my rebuild :)
Darn, and I thought I was being original. I guess that's what I get for not reading through all of the spoilers :(
I’ve looked over things, including my own suggestions and have concluded the following:
The alchemist’s HD (d8), saves, class skills and skill points are just fine the way they are. I played a human 10th level alchemist with an Intelligence of 20, and maxed out about 75% of his skills. So, I think those are right where they are.
Disable Device I view delayed bombs, poisons, and any traps related to some alchemical device or substance as being within the realm of an alchemist’s understanding. He gets the Disable Device, but not the bonus a Rogue gets with it. On that note, why don’t we let an alchemist add his level to his Disable Device check only on devices/traps related to alchemical properties, since that is within his realm of expertise? This allows his Alchemy class feature to sort of function like a bard’s Perform skills. Not sure how else to incorporate it further.
Or how about adding this?
Alchemical Trapfinding: An alchemist adds 1/2 his level to Perception skill checks made to locate alchemical or poison traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1) related to alchemical devices. An alchemist cannot use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
As to his Alchemy class feature I think it should be both Ex and Su. I think mutagens and extracts should remain Supernatural (part of true alchemy), while poisons and bombs should be Extraordinary abilities, more in the vein of nonmagical chemistry.
I like Maeloke’s extract throwing, since certain extracts make more sense being tossed than drank.
Alchemy (Su): As per the test document, with the following changes: Alchemists may throw extracts with the same accuracy and action it consumes to throw a bomb. Any target struck with a potion so thrown is affected as though the extract were cast 'targeting' them. Such extracts deal no splash damage. For spells that create an area of effect, the extract's point of impact is considered the center of the effect.
Since they are maintained by the alchemist's aura, extracts lose their potence almost immediately upon leaving his person. For this reason, only extracts thrown or drunk by the alchemist function (but see the Sustain Extract discovery below)
I think extracts should continue to go inert, as the test document, since the infusion discovery is available. After all, they are extracts, not full fledged potions.
On the potions topic, Alchemists should receive Brew Potion as a free feat at 3rd level, allowing them to substitute formulae for the required spells. They can make potions via the same methods as every other spellcaster. At a later level, however, they should gain the Improved Brewing feature, which allows them to create potions above 3rd level, and do so at either 75% or 50% the cost of everyone else. Despite alchemists having access to poison, extract, bomb and mutagen mixtures, I see him being first and foremost a brewer of extracts, since it requires those skills to make a poison, bomb, or mutage. It’s the most basic skill set of the class.
I had posted above about building alchemy focuses veins, but now think that should not occur. I think it was Maeloke who said in a post that the player’s will “stream” themselves into what they want, so there is no point to do so for them.
Discoveries I like Maeloke’s discovery list above, and the idea of having Advanced Discoveries. This separates them a bit. Looking at discoveries in general, I think they should follow the line of the barbarian’s rage powers, with easily accessed discoveries, then more powerful ones with level and/or discovery requirements before they can be selected. This will keep a good lid on an alchemist becoming too powerful all at once, but still allows for personal freedom and creative combinations of discoveries. I like Maeloke’s energy bomb, it allows for the whole energy type gambit without having to take everyone. Instead you can choose which energy to use at the time of creation. Since there isn’t too many offensive options for an alchemist, it’s a good way to give it without being too overpowering. I also like the poison related discoveries, certainly adds to the class options. Excellent!
Potion Proficiency I like this too, Maeloke. It gives them something that is related strictly to their niche, since no one else can/will throw bombs or extracts. They are the soul users of bombs and extracts, so they alone should be good at what they do. Makes the bombs a little more combatant related too. Good work.
0-Level Extracts I still feel alchemist should have 0-level extracts. They should be limited, but creatable as often as they want to, just like orisons and cantrips can be cast at will. They would still follow the same restrictions as extracts. I like Infusion s being what they are called, or maybe draught. Pathfinder will be the final word on that subject (just like all the rest of course).
Bombs I like Maeloke’s ideas and wording here too.
Bomb (Su): An alchemist can brew volatile, explosive concoctions to throw at his enemies. Creating such a bomb consumes the same time and resources it takes to brew an extract, during which he infuses the chemicals with a bit of his own magical aura. Once created, bombs last up to one day, and the alchemist may create up to his level + intelligence modifier per day. Bombs are thrown as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 ft., consuming a standard action and provoking attacks of opportunity.
Since they are maintained by the alchemist's aura, bombs lose their potence almost immediately upon leaving his person. For this reason, only bombs thrown by the alchemist explode (but see the Sustain Bomb discovery below).
Bombs deal 1d6 fire damage at 1st level, plus an additional d6 at every odd level thereafter.
This allows an alchemist to create his bombs before hand, or make them on the fly. Giving them a “wizard and sorcerer” feel with prepared and spontaneous. I’m still not sure whether bombs should be SU or EX though. SU means it can’t be stopped by Spell Resistance, but Ex would then let them be used in an antimagic field, which no other “spellcaster”can do. Must ponder.
Research Journal This idea seems to be a popular thing. I personally like it. I’d like to see the alchemist need to record his formulae, but still allow him to use them spontaneously. I like my idea of having a research journal, have them record in it and study from it like a wizard. Then they can retrieve a certain number from their journal for the day, from which they can draw from and spontaneously use, either creating their extracts before hand, or doing it on the fly and in the field.
Mutagen I think a standard increment at certain levels is good, and then allowing the alchemist to decide where to place it (a stat or natural armor). This is sort of like the ranger’s favored enemies feature, gaining a +2 at incremental levels.
Poison Resistance I really liked this from the beginning. Makes so much sense since alchemists constantly work with caustic, toxic, and volatile substances, and gives them a great advantage over other classes that isn’t too powerful. I know when I played my 10th level alchemist I was always looking for opportunities to enter poison gas zones or deal with poison attack or traps since they couldn’t hurt me. Although, the question is having the whole range of resistance up to complete immunity without putting some of them in as discoveries make things unbalanced? Perhaps not. I still like having it though, either way.
Swift Alchemy I like the change here. I see you moved the poisoning as a move action to the poisoner discovery. I see you also moved the Swift Poisoning class feature to the Advanced Discoveries. This I think is a good move.
Ranged Throw I like this. It enhances his ability to use bombs (his only useful offensive weapon).
Evasion Always a good ability to have, but not sure if he needs it. It may over power him. Not sure.
Advanced Discoveries I really like the concoction, improved poison, master brewer, master poisoner, precise throw, and refined poison discoveries.
Instant Alchemy This is good. Maybe move to 16th level.
Grand Discoveries These should also have previous discoveries requirements. I don’t think an alchemist who has the 2nd level Mutagen, and goes to level 20 never taking another Mutagen related discovery should be able to choose True Mutagen as one of his Grand Discoveries. Doesn’t make sense. Love the Pyromaniac grand discovery.
Formulae List Expansion I like the idea of allowing the alchemist access to transmutation and simple enchantment and necromancy schools. As Maeloke said, none with commands or multiple targeting, it just doesn’t fit with the class flavor or his extract use.
Overall, it looks great. It doesn’t diverge much from the original playtest version, just adds greatly to it, and tweaks many of the little problems. I’ll take a look at the spell lists and see what fits with the drinking/throwing extracts from the enchantment, necromancy, and transmutation schools.
Remember guys, they're looking for people to actually go and play the class as it currently is and get feedback regarding that. A post about your Alchemist running through The Hook Mountain Massacre will probably have more merit then showing them a complete rewrite... of course if you a playtest, then do it again with the rewrite that's a different story.
The way you guys are talking about preparing bombs ahead of time would lead to bad, very bad mojo. That would make the Bomb Bag just obscene, and what happens if the Alchemist is hit by a Fireball if you're carrying around 10 armed bombs? *poof* Not everyone's going to have a safe little extra-dimensional space to keep your explosives.
Then there's the capstone of Pyromaniac. Allowing an unlimited amount of 10d12 bombs to be made? And then you can throw them 400 feet away. Hrmm? Spend an hour making 60 bombs in the morning, Beast Shape into a dire bat fly 400 feet over your target throw the satchel and cover your eyes. I don't even know if atomic bombs deal 600d12+500.
I think the Ranged Throw idea would make a better feat then class feature. It's something that's general enough anyone might want it, but some people may not.
Personally I don't see much call for Evasion, if the reasoning is they toss lots of explosions well... why don't wizards have Evasion?
Remember guys, they're looking for people to actually go and play the class as it currently is and get feedback regarding that. A post about your Alchemist running through The Hook Mountain Massacre will probably have more merit then showing them a complete rewrite... of course if you a playtest, then do it again with the rewrite that's a different story.
The way you guys are talking about preparing bombs ahead of time would lead to bad, very bad mojo. That would make the Bomb Bag just obscene, and what happens if the Alchemist is hit by a Fireball if you're carrying around 10 armed bombs? *poof* Not everyone's going to have a safe little extra-dimensional space to keep your explosives.
Then there's the capstone of Pyromaniac. Allowing an unlimited amount of 10d12 bombs to be made? And then you can throw them 400 feet away. Hrmm? Spend an hour making 60 bombs in the morning, Beast Shape into a dire bat fly 400 feet over your target throw the satchel and cover your eyes. I don't even know if atomic bombs deal 600d12+500.
I think the Ranged Throw idea would make a better feat then class feature. It's something that's general enough anyone might want it, but some people may not.
Personally I don't see much call for Evasion, if the reasoning is they toss lots of explosions well... why don't wizards have Evasion?
Most of this isn't about trying to force Paizo to rewrite the class, but just a number of insights. No one will ever truly agree 100% on every class. These were just about making a workable class in the meantime. I do agree that increasing the range of thrown items should be a feat instead of a class feature, I could very much imagine a knife thrower wanting that.
As for the bomb, well every one has different ideas about it. I imagine a simple vial of explosive substances that simply isn't able to ignite just yet.
I found your comment about the justification for evasion to be very humorous. But you correct about this issue and I couldn't put it better myself.
I know it's just a compilation of ideas people have been talking about but it feels rather strong-handed. I think Odentin had a good example of play testing by running the two alchemists side by side and presenting the results. My 2cents on the post really.
Back on topic;
The way bombs are written right now support the idea of them not being ignited until you actually spend the action to do that (which I want to say a free action would be good and the standard action to throw a bomb changed to a normal attack action, different thread for that). With this idea though there's no mention of having to spend any time "charging" the bomb you just throw it and it explodes. It would need clear wording that the bombs are only explosive during the round you activate them in, then you'd have to bring the Delay Bomb discovery back in to use them over a period of rounds.
If you just have them active all the time you run the risk of both instantly killing the Alchemist character from any kind of explosive attack and giving them the ability to do more damage then even epic level spells. Vengeful Gaze of God deals an average of 900 damage, with a Fortitude save, and is affected by SR, and it deals 200d6 back lash damage to the caster, and costs ~4 million gold, and 76 days of study just to get.
Back on topic;
The way bombs are written right now support the idea of them not being ignited until you actually spend the action to do that (which I want to say a free action would be good and the standard action to throw a bomb changed to a normal attack action, different thread for that). With this idea though there's no mention of having to spend any time "charging" the bomb you just throw it and it explodes. It would need clear wording that the bombs are only explosive during the round you activate them in, then you'd have to bring the Delay Bomb discovery back in to use them over a period of rounds.If you just have them active all the time you run the risk of both instantly killing the Alchemist character from any kind of explosive attack and giving them the ability to do more damage then even epic level spells. Vengeful Gaze of God deals an average of 900 damage, with a Fortitude save, and is affected by SR, and it deals 200d6 back lash damage to the caster, and costs ~4 million gold, and 76 days of study just to get.
You're really on about the whole bomb bag thing, and I don't really see the reason for it. I mean, the entire alchemical schtick is magical hand-wavery anyhow, so it's nothing to specifically stipulate that someone can only throw a single bomb at a time, and that a bomb is inert unless specifically primed to explode.
The obvious assumption about bombs is that you only can throw one per round, giving alchemists a baseline damage-dealt metric to ensure they're useful in combat. Its definitely not to build up enormous piles of bombs so they can nova all their power in one go.
Even without specifying one-bomb-only, the bomb bag seems awfully dubious from an economy of actions/rules perspective. I mean, do you let someone drink four potions in a turn because they build a doohickey that straps them together and has a lever to open them all at once? Hey, its clever, but it breaks game balance metrics.
Darn, and I thought I was being original. I guess that's what I get for not reading through all of the spoilers :(
I admit, it really is quite a wall of text to dig through.
Scipion del Ferro - Just for you, I offer this amended bomb mechanic. It actually returns some elements to the original document's methods, the wisdom of which has become more apparent.
Bombs are thrown as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 ft., taking a standard action and provoking attacks of opportunity. They do full damage to their primary target, and minimum damage to any creature in the splash radius (typically 1 per die plus the alchemist's int modifier).
Since they are maintained by the alchemist's aura, bombs lose their potence almost immediately upon leaving his person. For this reason, although anyone can be taught to prime a bomb, only bombs thrown by the alchemist explode (but see the Sustain Bomb discovery).
Potion Proficiency I like this too, Maeloke. It gives them something that is related strictly to their niche, since no one else can/will throw bombs or extracts. They are the soul users of bombs and extracts, so they alone should be good at what they do. Makes the bombs a little more combatant related too. Good work.
It's essentially 'throw anything', but reworked to be specific to the alchemist's actual abilities. It bothered me in the base rules that in order to make the alchemists skilled at throwing bombs, they get a feat that makes them equally accurate with, you know, bricks and chairs.
Research Journal This idea seems to be a popular thing. I personally like it. I’d like to see the alchemist need to record his formulae, but still allow him to use them spontaneously. I like my idea of having a research journal, have them record in it and study from it like a wizard. Then they can retrieve a certain number from their journal for the day, from which they can draw from and spontaneously use, either creating their extracts before hand, or doing it on the fly and in the field.
I'm still awfully leery of letting them freely swap around spells like that. Remember, at high levels these guys actually get more 'spells' per day than wizards or clerics for levels 1-6, and they already 'know' more than sorcerers get to for those levels. Our little rebuilds here are already tromping pretty hard on the power curve, so I'd prefer not to dabble in expanded versatility as well.
Poison Resistance <snip> Although, the question is having the whole range of resistance up to complete immunity without putting some of them in as discoveries make things unbalanced? Perhaps not. I still like having it though, either way.
I'd already moved so many abilities into discoveries, I wanted to leave something iconic out there that really just felt appropriate for all alchemists to have. Additionally, +2 to poison is such a paltry advancement, I felt there was no reason to force alchemists to spend discoveries acquiring it, and considering monks get poison immunity at 11 as a matter of course, it seemed a good level 10 capstone-y ability to have.
Ranged Throw I like this. It enhances his ability to use bombs (his only useful offensive weapon).
Don't forget extracts! Although other people are right in wondering whether this is better moved to a feat. I'd be okay making base range for alchemical throwing 20 ft., removing the advances in range, and making up a 'double thrown weapon range' feat.
Evasion Always a good ability to have, but not sure if he needs it. It may over power him. Not sure.
On reflection, yeah, he probably doesn't need evasion. Shows I've been spending too much time in those threads arguing the alchemist should have rogue-type utility. I was arguing against the notion, but clearly it rubbed off anyhow.
Instant Alchemy This is good. Maybe move to 16th level.
Was just keeping it in line with the base rules. There are probably new alchemical items coming in the APG that they don't want showing up willy-nilly before a certain point.
Grand Discoveries These should also have previous discoveries requirements. I don’t think an alchemist who has the 2nd level Mutagen, and goes to level 20 never taking another Mutagen related discovery should be able to choose True Mutagen as one of his Grand Discoveries. Doesn’t make sense. Love the Pyromaniac grand discovery.
My idea with the grand discoveries was that they should be able to build upon existing character choices, rather than all be flat capstones. That's why true mutagen merely adds a couple points to mutagen power, and pyro just incrementally increases bomb damage.
Formulae List Expansion I like the idea of allowing the alchemist access to transmutation and simple enchantment and necromancy schools. As Maeloke said, none with commands or multiple targeting, it just doesn’t fit with the class flavor or his extract use.
I looked at evocation as well, thinking of effects like Daylight and Darkness, but that one's a slippery slope, 'cause soon you'll be wondering why they don't just get Fireball.
Expanding the list is further good reason to not go with the research journal idea. An alchemist reaching level 16 should be challenged by the choice between Heal and Wail of the Banshee, not just pick one and figure "Hey, I'll just buy or find the recipe for the other one."
I'd already moved so many abilities into discoveries, I wanted to leave something iconic out there that really just felt appropriate for all alchemists to have. Additionally, +2 to poison is such a paltry advancement, I felt there was no reason to force alchemists to spend discoveries acquiring it, and considering monks get poison immunity at 11 as a matter of course, it seemed a good level 10 capstone-y ability to have.
I agree. Especially with all the wonderful poison related discoveries you developed.
On reflection, yeah, he probably doesn't need evasion. Shows I've been spending too much time in those threads arguing the alchemist should have rogue-type utility. I was arguing against the notion, but clearly it rubbed off anyhow.
As much as we would like the alchemist to have it, it doesn’t quite fit the class. It’s too all encompassing, including spells, and special attacks. An alchemist is adept at bombs and extracts, and his reaction would be to those. I think them having a good Reflex save accounts for this.
Bomb (Su): An alchemist can brew explosive concoctions to throw at his enemies. Creating such a bomb consumes the same time and resources it takes to brew an extract, during which he infuses the chemicals with a bit of his own magical aura. Once created, bombs last up to one day, and the alchemist may create up to his level + intelligence modifier per day. Once they are created, the bombs are nearly complete, but the chemicals remain inert until the alchemist primes it with a final component, which causes the bomb to be reactive for 1 round. If the bomb is not thrown in this time, it denatures and becomes inert and useless. Priming a bomb is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Bombs are thrown as a splash weapon with a range increment of 10 ft., taking a standard action and provoking attacks of opportunity. They do full damage to their primary target, and minimum damage to any creature in the splash radius (typically 1 per die plus the alchemist's Int modifier).
Since they are maintained by the alchemist's aura, bombs lose their potency almost immediately upon leaving his person. For this reason, although anyone can be taught to prime a bomb, only bombs thrown by the alchemist explode (but see the Sustain Bomb discovery).
I think this is better. More like the old version, but allows the alchemist to do with bombs what they can do with extracts, have them prepped, and ready t go.
It's essentially 'throw anything', but reworked to be specific to the alchemist's actual abilities. It bothered me in the base rules that in order to make the alchemists skilled at throwing bombs, they get a feat that makes them equally accurate with, you know, bricks and chairs.
Yes. This is a more focused proficiency. Alchemists, as you say, wouldn’t know how to toss bricks and chairs, but bombs and extracts, definitely.
I'm still awfully leery of letting them freely swap around spells like that. Remember, at high levels these guys actually get more 'spells' per day than wizards or clerics for levels 1-6, and they already 'know' more than sorcerers get to for those levels. Our little rebuilds here are already tromping pretty hard on the power curve, so I'd prefer not to dabble in expanded versatility as well.
I still think the research journal is an important aspect of the alchemist, though it might be more flavor than anything. Te thing is, the alchemist is restricted more than a sorcerer, since the sorcerer can readily buff himself or others, depending on the spells he chooses. The alchemist has to choose a discovery to do that, so I figured more options initially, with daily restricted use is a way to balance it out. I’m not sure if people understand my concept or not so I’m going to explain it in more detail. I think we can use the mechanics already in place to do it.
The alchemist would have a Research Journal, into which he is required to record all his known formulae, much like a wizard has a spellbook. I don’t see him remembering every formula in his mind, since they’re too complex, with specific instructions, ingredients, etc. I also don’t see them as innately known like a sorcerer, who simply draws upon his innate magic to cast spells spontaneously. However, I could see them retaining a certain number of formula in his mind for the day.
The alchemist would gain formulae much like a wizard gains spells. He would begin with all the 0-level formulae and three 1st-level formulae of his choice in his research journal, plus additional 1st-level formulae equal to his Intelligence modifier. Then, every level thereafter, due to his continued research and experimenting, he adds 2 new formulae of any formulae level he knows to his journal. The alchemist can gain obtain additional formulae by getting them from other alchemists, or purchasing formulae scrolls to copy into his journal. In any case, he can only use those formulae written in his research journal. Formula scrolls wouldn’t function like a spell scroll, since the magic isn’t in the scroll, but the extract the scroll instructs the alchemist to create.
Next, the alchemist can only retain or “retrieve” a certain number of formulae from his research journal each day. Once retrieved, they are burned into his memory for the day, and cannot be changed until the next time he studies. The alchemist can only retain or “retrieve” a certain number of formulae of each formula level. For this we use the playtest version of the alchemist’s Extract Formulae Known table.
Then, using the alchemist’s Extracts per Day table, the alchemist can mix (ahead of time or spontaneously) a number of extracts of a given level as shown on the table.
So, a 4th level alchemist with an Intelligence of 16 would have in his journal all the 0-level formulae, ten 1st-level formulae and two 2nd level formulae (much like a wizard and his spellbook). He could then only retrieve six of his 0-level formulae, four 1st-level formulae, and two 2nd level formulae for the entire day. Then, throughout the day, he could spontaneously mix any of those formulae in this reduced list, and couldn’t access any other formulae in his journal until he rested and studied again.
Now that I think about it, I suppose its all semantics and description flavor, and isn’t really different from what the alchemist does now. They have him know only a certain number of formulae (like a sorcerer) which he can mix spontaneously. I guess it’s the idea of having more options for the alchemist, allowing him to record what he wants, and then restrict him to the number of formulae he can actually use from his research journal on a day-to-day basis. Then allow him to mix those restricted formulae spontaneously. Anyways, I hope that explains my thought.
I guess we could just go with what they have in the playtest, and just add that he records his formulae in a journal and must study each day to access them. I don’t know, what does everyone else think? This is how the research journal entry might read.
An alchemist may know any number of formulae, as long as they are recorded in his research journal. However, he must study his formulae ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his research journal. He can then retrieve a certain number of formulae that he knows for the day, as shown on the Extract Formulae Known table. Once these formulae are selected, they remain in his mind for the rest of the day and are not wiped out like a wizard’s spells. The alchemist can then mix extracts from his daily known formulae spontaneously, much like a sorcerer spontaneously casts his spells. The alchemist cannot change the formulae he has retrieved for that day, until the following day. The number of daily extracts an alchemist can mix of a particular formulae level are given on the Extracts per Day table.
I looked at evocation as well, thinking of effects like Daylight and Darkness, but that one's a slippery slope, 'cause soon you'll be wondering why they don't just get Fireball.
Expanding the list is further good reason to not go with the research journal idea. An alchemist reaching level 16 should be challenged by the choice between Heal and Wail of the Banshee, not just pick one and figure "Hey, I'll just buy or find the recipe for the other one."
I think, despite the expanded list, the above journal explanation would not be over powered with the alchemist’s daily restricted access. He has greater overall options having a research book, but he still has to select the ones he can use for the day. If he chooses wrong, he’s hooped, much like a wizard is. I think it gives the alchemist the best of both worlds without being overpowered, and it’s more in line with how the alchemist would function with his formulae.
I'm glad you like my take on most of the abilities. I've been trying to think of how to logically distill the big discovery lists down to a more workable size, since they are rather ponderous right now. I feel like each branch of alchemy should have about 5 basic discoveries, plus another 3-4 advanced ones, and then 1-2 bridge ones to reward split foci like poison-bombing or mutagen-extracts.
I'm also trying to come up with more generic alchemist discoveries that focus on extracts and potions, without being obtuse and underpowered. It's tricky, since extracts are already balanced with the embedded spellcasting stuff. The potion discoveries in the test document are really cool, they're just... less than useful. Rather like the original poison abilities, it hurts that core class function would require significant financial outlay (Potions are expensive!).
I'm conflicted on bombs, since the original class template had so many flavorful added bomb effects, but so few abilities to just generically increase bomb utility. I mean, smoke bombs make all kinds of sense, but I can barely imagine someone taking that even if they get discoveries every even level, much less at every fourth level like the test document suggests. There's just so much more utility to be had in discoveries like infusion, force bomb, and mutagen improvements.
I think, despite the expanded list, the above journal explanation would not be over powered with the alchemist’s daily restricted access. He has greater overall options having a research book, but he still has to select the ones he can use for the day. If he chooses wrong, he’s hooped, much like a wizard is. I think it gives the alchemist the best of both worlds without being overpowered, and it’s more in line with how the alchemist would function with his formulae.
I can tell you mean well, but the issue you really need to address is just how favorably your scheme makes alchemical spellcasting compare to wizards, sorcerers, and clerics. If an alchemist starts with three 1st level extracts, then gets two more at each level per the wizard's spellbook, he ends up with seven 1st level ones, six more for each level 2-5, and ten (!) level 6 spells available to choose from, without *any* extracurricular study. He'll have chosen every single spell on his list that is at all useful, since he lingers longer at each tier of spellcasting. For nearly all purposes, he'll be a wizard with regard to spell access, blowing his spontaneous caster brethren out of the water.
On the other side of the coin, each day he gets to memorize 5 spells at each level, which puts him soundly ahead of the study-casters, who top out at 4. Those classes are deliberately limited in this way so their daily spell decisions are difficult ones, but your alchemist goes "Hey, we'll just take everything good and use 'em as needed."
I get the appeal of a book of recipes, but for every gnome buried in a tome finding formulas, there's a dizzy dwarven apothecary that mixes his potions by eye and taste test. How about we compromise and make a discovery for it?
Research Journal (Ex): The alchemist keeps a journal of his alchemical experiments, allowing him access to a greater number of formulae, at the expense of being dependent on the journal to remember them. The alchemist has access to one additional extract of each level he can prepare from, and may spend an hour each morning studying his journal to select which extracts he knows for the day. However, each day his number of extracts effectively 'known' decreases by one, to a minimum of one.
Example: A typical 3rd level alchemist knows four extracts from level 1 and may create any of them at any time. When he acquires a research journal, he knows five level 1 extracts, but may only have three of them available to spontaneously 'cast' on any particular day, and must study his journal for an hour in order to change his choices.
I have little to say at the moment, as typing from a phone is tedious, but I have to throw out a vote against making the research journal a discovery. The flavor doesn't hold up for it. If you're the type to use written formulas, as I believe most alchemists would be, you don't suddenly start doing as you advance in skill. You'd be doing it from the start. I'd be more inclined to think you'd start written and eventually memorize some of your formula (such as through a discovery or feat that functions like Spell Mastery).
I think they should change Poison Resistance from a +2 bonus on their Fortitude Saves (which are already good saves), and make it so each time they get Poison Resistance, they reduce the amount of ability damage or drain caused by a poison affecting their systems by 1. So at low levels, they're effectively immune to weak poisons (such as ones that cause 1 Con damage), but still affected by stronger poisons (like those that cause 1d4 Str drain). Then, as they level up, their immunity and/or resistance to poisons scales with the toxicity of their opponents.
Also, alchemists could use some nifty meta-poison abilities, like:
Extend Poison (double the duration)
Empower Poison (1 1/2 the ability damage)
Maximize Poison (maximizes the amount of ability damage)
Virulent Poison (increase the number of consecutive saves to eliminate the need to save by 1)
Potent Poison (bypass poison immunity)
Mask Poison (require a CL check of 10 + alchemist level to detect poison)
Greater Mask Poison (require a CL of 15 or 20 + alchemist level to detect poison)
Poison Focus (increase the DC of poison)
Transmute Poison (turn ability damage into ability drain)
Etc. etc.
I have little to say at the moment, as typing from a phone is tedious, but I have to throw out a vote against making the research journal a discovery. The flavor doesn't hold up for it. If you're the type to use written formulas, as I believe most alchemists would be, you don't suddenly start doing as you advance in skill. You'd be doing it from the start. I'd be more inclined to think you'd start written and eventually memorize some of your formula (such as through a discovery or feat that functions like Spell Mastery).
What I gather, then, is that your dispute is with flavor, rather than power level. I would be more than happy to hear ideas for a balanced formulation of the research journal - it's just that so far, everything that's been mentioned to this effect has been fairly out of line with existing spellcasting precedent. The base alchemist's spell counts are modeled for spontaneous casting, and can't just be switched out of hand to prepared casting.
Me, I'm perfectly happy with the alchemist working from a limited list of memorized formulae, and doing it that way lets them slot nicely into the bard spellcasting progression.
I think they should change Poison Resistance from a +2 bonus on their Fortitude Saves (which are already good saves), and make it so each time they get Poison Resistance, they reduce the amount of ability damage or drain caused by a poison affecting their systems by 1. So at low levels, they're effectively immune to weak poisons (such as ones that cause 1 Con damage), but still affected by stronger poisons (like those that cause 1d4 Str drain). Then, as they level up, their immunity and/or resistance to poisons scales with the toxicity of their opponents.
That idea does have some charm to it, but I've always taken the save DC as the final measure of how strong a poison is, rather than the amount of ability damage it dealt. How obnoxious would it be as an alchemist to get hit with poison, fail the save, and then have a 50/50 chance of it mattering at all, depending on the poison's die roll? It amounts to a whole lot more bookkeeping that I don't think we really need to add, never mind making no sense when the poison's effects aren't ability damage - drow sleep poison comes to mind.
Also, alchemists could use some nifty meta-poison abilities, like:
Extend Poison (double the duration)
Empower Poison (1 1/2 the ability damage)
Maximize Poison (maximizes the amount of ability damage)
Virulent Poison (increase the number of consecutive saves to eliminate the need to save by 1)
Potent Poison (bypass poison immunity)
Mask Poison (require a CL check of 10 + alchemist level to detect poison)
Greater Mask Poison (require a CL of 15 or 20 + alchemist level to detect poison)
Poison Focus (increase the DC of poison)
Transmute Poison (turn ability damage into ability drain)
In the interest of brevity, I rolled several of these abilities into one advanced discovery:
I'd like to include something like potent poison, but I'm not sure late game creature statistics would support it. If they could, it would look something like:
Masking poison could be rolled into Master Poisoner (it's a really narrow ability). Transmute poison is powerful, but it's such a corner-case effect for high-level play, that I'd rather not clutter up the list adding it. Could be a feat, though.
To be honest the only spells that should be converted into extracs should be target: self or beneficial creature touched spells. You drink the extracts and you throw the bomb, keep it simple but enjoyable.
To be honest the only spells that should be converted into extracs should be target: self or beneficial creature touched spells. You drink the extracts and you throw the bomb, keep it simple but enjoyable.
Where's your imagination, man? The absolute first thing I thought of when I saw they'd made an alchemist was whipping vials of whatever-the-hell-I-wanted all around the battlefield. Corrosives on par with disintegrate. Clouds of hallucinogenic fumes that also rot off platemail. Contact poison with final stage: black pudding.
"Simple but enjoyable" doesn't cut it, because base alchemist is *not* enjoyable. He's a boring support character that can't even be a support character until he takes an optional ability at level 4. And once he's on support duty, you realize a cleric does everything the alchemist wants to do only better, with simpler mechanics, and doesn't hit allies with splash damage in the process.
New classes are not supposed to be simultaneously this irrelevant and this low-powered. I'll take some complexity any day if it'll yield a more interesting and/or powerful alchemist.
The main point of the alchemist is to make him unique and effective at what he does. Right now I agree that he is not the most effective class in the game. But it would be terrible just to make him into an alternative casting class, then you might as well just play a sorcerer or something similar.
When it comes to the point he should be on the same power level as a bard. He should be relatively versatile but also focused. You should have the choice to make him an AOE damager (bombs), melee damager (mutagens), support (extracts) or status effects (poisons). Right now you can only focus on two things: Mutagens and bombs. There is no backup for poisons or extracts, it's just there.
I saw in a different post somewhere that attack spells should be incorporated into poisons, personally I don't think this is a bad idea. Then you get an unique twist on it. And I also agree partially with you that there are many spells that might fit as thrown bottle spells (like an acid flask that count as disintegrate, which was my first idea as well).
But there are so many spells that don't fit in. If you keep the extracts as I mentioned, but could make non magical alchemical items that duplicate a bit weaker effects of spells, that would be something. Because if you can make a bottle of fireball, why bother with the bombs?
Think about a non magical disintegrate that does 5d8 of acid damage with or without splash, your choice. And as long as you have made enough the party throws one each before the enemy come into melee range.
How about slippery goo that duplicates the effect of grease? But then again if you make his stuff non magical you must also make him an extended alchemy list.
And I don't think this will happen in the new version of the class.
The more realistic scenario is, an increased number of extracts, some new discoveries, more discoveries learned, and maybe a research journal. They might remove some of the abilities and make it discoveries instead. I don't think they will fix the mutagen much, sad to say (I hope they do). All in all it won't be much different from what we see now. Still I do like the class. And I say again I really hope they won't turn him into just another casting class. (Would still play him though).
Perhaps a feat (or discovery) -
Shaped charge
Your bombs no longer do splash damage but do an extra 1d6 points of damage. In addtion they may be used as non-proficent melee wpns.
Precise placement
This feat grats proficiency in melee shaped charges, and allows bombs to apply precision based damage (eg sneak attack)
When it comes to the point he should be on the same power level as a bard. He should be relatively versatile but also focused. You should have the choice to make him an AOE damager (bombs), melee damager (mutagens), support (extracts) or status effects (poisons). Right now you can only focus on two things: Mutagens and bombs. There is no backup for poisons or extracts, it's just there.
I saw in a different post somewhere that attack spells should be incorporated into poisons, personally I don't think this is a bad idea. Then you get an unique twist on it. And I also agree partially with you that there are many spells that might fit as thrown bottle spells (like an acid flask that count as disintegrate, which was my first idea as well).
Well, I've already observed that disintegrate is probably OP when put next to the alchemist's bombs, but that's neither here nor there.
To your other points: At least we agree that he's underpowered and that the specialties lack support. I'd agree that extract/support role is sufficiently supported (if uninterestingly so), but the bombs in the base document are still just about the worst AoE damage agents that have ever been rolled out as a class feature. The fact that they're a primary class feature makes them all the more embarrassing.
Poison and Mutagen are, of course, badly supported at best.
But there are so many spells that don't fit in. If you keep the extracts as I mentioned, but could make non magical alchemical items that duplicate a bit weaker effects of spells, that would be something. Because if you can make a bottle of fireball, why bother with the bombs?
Because you can't make a bottle of fireball, as it isn't on the extract list.
Think about a non magical disintegrate that does 5d8 of acid damage with or without splash, your choice. And as long as you have made enough the party throws one each before the enemy come into melee range.
How about slippery goo that duplicates the effect of grease? But then again if you make his stuff non magical you must also make him an extended alchemy list.
And I don't think this will happen in the new version of the class.
I know it's a long thread with a couple of really long class rewrites, so I don't mind that you missed it, but at least in my build, I addressed these issues. Extracts continue to be magical, and the infusion discovery is removed because it permits the sort of nova effect that you're alluding to. It's replaced with a much more controlled version. Adding a dozen interesting, appropriate spells to the alchemist's extract list is an inconsequential amount of effort.
I mean, once you establish that they can be thrown, you just page through the spell list, look at each spell, and ask:
1) Is it flavor appropriate? (Grease? Yes. Ray of Enfeeblement? Yes. Fireball? Yes. Disintegrate? Yes. Locate Object? No. Suggestion? No. Harm? Yes. Raise Dead? Yes)
2) Does it overshadow other class abilities? (Grease? No. Ray of Enfeeblement? No. Fireball? Yes. Disintegrate? Yes. Harm? Yes. Raise Dead? No.)
3) Does it fit within power level guidelines already established by the base spell list? (Grease? Yes. Ray of Enfeeblement? Yes. Raise Dead? No)
So: Grease and Ray of Enfeeblement look like good candidates to add.
When it comes to the point he should be on the same power level as a bard. He should be relatively versatile but also focused. You should have the choice to make him an AOE damager (bombs), melee damager (mutagens), support (extracts) or status effects (poisons). Right now you can only focus on two things: Mutagens and bombs. There is no backup for poisons or extracts, it's just there.
My elementalist alchemist version is designed to allow the alchemist to specialize in one of the four fields of study (bombs, elixirs (mutagens), formulas (extracts), and poisons), while still dabbling in the other three fields of study in varying degrees.