RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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How can it be fooled exactly? Tremorsense is a "tactile" sense and MI a visual illusion. They don't even interact.
Tremorsense is only accurate enough to tell you the square the caster is in. It never tells you "exactly" where someone is like blindsight does.
Again, Tremorsense is tactile (or touch-based). It works in all forms of darkness, in magical silence, and in a stench cloud. The only way it can be foiled is for the target to stop moving. Mirror Image doesn't affect it in any way.
TREMORSENSE
A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range.
If no straight path exists through the ground from the creature to those that it’s sensing, then the range defines the maximum distance of the shortest indirect path. It must itself be in contact with the ground, and the creatures must be moving.
As long as the other creatures are taking physical actions, including casting spells with somatic components, they’re considered moving; they don’t have to move from place to place for a creature with tremorsense to detect them.
I don't know where you see pinpoint in that description.
Conversely, as I stated in my previous post, it is entirely reasonable for scent to work to find hidden or invisible enemies... if they are NOT moving.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.
So if the caster of MI is completely still for one round, I would allow a creature with Scent to make a single attack (standard action) each round against him. No miss chance, no confusion in hitting the images, caster loses Dex mod to AC.
TREMORSENSE
A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range.
If no straight path exists through the ground from the creature to those that it’s sensing, then the range defines the maximum distance of the shortest indirect path. It must itself be in contact with the ground, and the creatures must be moving.
As long as the other creatures are taking physical actions, including casting spells with somatic components, they’re considered moving; they don’t have to move from place to place for a creature with tremorsense to detect them.I don't know where you see pinpoint in that description.
PRD(Pathfinder)
Tremorsense (Ex) A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text.
Mirror image states only " that you can't use vision or hearing to to tell which one is you and which the image"
But now because pinpoint is being defined as only pinning down a 5x5 square...mirror image still trumps tremorsense/scent.
They should just remove the quoted portion above from the mirror image spell description,since this 2nd spell is clearly meant to be all powerful,and we don't want to hint to anyone that it can be creatively outwitted by other non-magical senses.
I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.
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If your DM DID rule in favor of closing your eyes to defeat MI being a full round thing (doesn't end till the start of your next turn) then wouldn't Blind Fight come in handy here as every one attacking you would technically be considered an invisible creature? ALSO your 50% miss chance turns into a chance to reroll if you do miss :D
MI is one of the main reasons I try and pick up Blind Fight for all my characters. Annoying spell defeated with one feat usually that has other useful awesome benefits. Wheeeee.
Sure, closed eyes + blindfight vs MI = 25% miss chance, only one MI is equivalent to 50% and it adds up quickly with more.
Of course than you have all the problems of fighting blind, oh and by the way thanks for opening yourself up to the rogue that's right next to you, as you're effectively denied yourself your dex to everyone. :)I just don't like how the "all-in-same-square" approach makes it so pretty much anybody but un-intelligent animals would realise it's an illusion type of effect and that their best chances are to close their eyes and swing, which drastically changes the effect of the spell.
Sure, if you run into a roving well-balanced evil adventuring party...
..or just a wizard and his rogue sidekick he enspelled with greater invisibility.
..or just a wizard and his rogue sidekick he enspelled with greater invisibility.
This totally happens all the time.
I think the point Cartigan was making is that you 90% of the time in most games fight monsters, not folks with class levels. The reason for this? Most DMs are kinda lazy and don't want to do the work of creating in depth sheets for NPCs the party is just going to wipe out.
I think the point Cartigan was making is that you 90% of the time in most games fight monsters, not folks with class levels. The reason for this? Most DMs are kinda lazy and don't want to do the work of creating in depth sheets for NPCs the party is just going to wipe out.
Speak for your own campaigns. 90% of the things I fight in my games have class levels.
I think the point Cartigan was making is that you 90% of the time in most games fight monsters, not folks with class levels. The reason for this? Most DMs are kinda lazy and don't want to do the work of creating in depth sheets for NPCs the party is just going to wipe out.
Actually, my point was that you are rarely going to meet a mixed party, or an organized one.
If you walk into a den of thieves, the chances of a Wizard being part of the same encounter is around 0. Same with walking into a Wizard's tower. Exactly who there is going to sneak attack you?
I think the point Cartigan was making is that you 90% of the time in most games fight monsters, not folks with class levels. The reason for this? Most DMs are kinda lazy and don't want to do the work of creating in depth sheets for NPCs the party is just going to wipe out.Speak for your own campaigns. 90% of the things I fight in my games have class levels.
Wow. That's incredible. All I usually get are monsters right outta the monster manuals/bestiary.
Most DMs in my experience don't want to make the effort.
There are exceptions, like my current DM... but most that I've seen just want to use the stuff right out of the book instead of statting out their own NPCs.
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I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.
Because all the images are in the same square. This isn't the 3.5 mirror image where you spread out and play the shell game. Now it is literally random chance that you will hit an image instead of the intended target. Tremor Sense and Scent only tell you the square the guy is in, and will report what your eyes already say, the guy is in that square.
This doesn't narrow down which one he is.
BlindSIGHT however, gives you no miss chance due to concealment, you know.
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I think the point Cartigan was making is that you 90% of the time in most games fight monsters, not folks with class levels. The reason for this? Most DMs are kinda lazy and don't want to do the work of creating in depth sheets for NPCs the party is just going to wipe out.Speak for your own campaigns. 90% of the things I fight in my games have class levels.Wow. That's incredible. All I usually get are monsters right outta the monster manuals/bestiary.
Most DMs in my experience don't want to make the effort.
There are exceptions, like my current DM... but most that I've seen just want to use the stuff right out of the book instead of statting out their own NPCs.
I use characters as well. It just creates rather flavorful villains or npcs when I can look at their stats. If I plan on a barkeep being integral to the story for a little bit, I'll stat them out, just so I know what they are capable of.
Incase the players do something stupid like attack him ;)
I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.Because all the images are in the same square. This isn't the 3.5 mirror image where you spread out and play the shell game. Now it is literally random chance that you will hit an image instead of the intended target. Tremor Sense and Scent only tell you the square the guy is in, and will report what your eyes already say, the guy is in that square.
This doesn't narrow down which one he is.
BlindSIGHT however, gives you no miss chance due to concealment, you know.
I think you got me wrong, my post was a reply to:
But now because pinpoint is being defined as only pinning down a 5x5 square...mirror image still trumps tremorsense/scent.
If you reread my post again you'd see that what I'm actually saying is that Mirror Image CANNOT trump tremorsense/scent.
As a side comment, you're right, as per the PF rules TS/Scent cannot trump MI either. But that has no direct relation to what I was saying.
I think the point Cartigan was making is that you 90% of the time in most games fight monsters, not folks with class levels. The reason for this? Most DMs are kinda lazy and don't want to do the work of creating in depth sheets for NPCs the party is just going to wipe out.Speak for your own campaigns. 90% of the things I fight in my games have class levels.Wow. That's incredible. All I usually get are monsters right outta the monster manuals/bestiary.
Most DMs in my experience don't want to make the effort.
There are exceptions, like my current DM... but most that I've seen just want to use the stuff right out of the book instead of statting out their own NPCs.
I do groups of classed NPC's as well. I don't bother with a full sheet, I do an abreviated version, roll a couple of sets of stats, use the same ones for them all. Then fill in the bits I need (equip, ac, skills). If I have, for example, 4 centaur archers (level 4 fighters) and 2 minotaurs (level 8 fighters) then I use the same stats for the centaurs and the same stats for the minotaurs, just changing the equipment, if necessary (bow of shock vs bow of frost).
I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.
You already know the creatures square so all tremorsense does is tell you what you already know.
You already know the creatures square so all tremorsense does is tell you what you already know.I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.
Tremorsense doesn't say anything about squares. It says it pinpoints the location. You know down to the inch where the real person is as the images wouldn't register.
Tremorsense doesn't say anything about squares. It says it pinpoints the location. You know down to the inch where the real person is as the images wouldn't register.
This has been clarified by Paizo in a previous post in this thread. Tremorsense only indicates the square the character is in, just like Scent.
Edit:
Pinpoint in the game means "determine a creature's square." It's one of those times where the game rule's definition of the word isn't the same as the common definition.
You already know the creatures square so all tremorsense does is tell you what you already know.I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.
Wow, thank you for explaining me my own post again(see a few posts above).
Seriously, english is not my first language and maybe I'm missing something in my own phrases. Is there any other meaning there than:
"Mirror image does not trump/beat tremorsense/scent because these two abilities work exactly the same way vs someone using mirror image than someone not using it?"
You already know the creatures square so all tremorsense does is tell you what you already know.I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.Wow, thank you for explaining me my own post again(see a few posts above).
Seriously, english is not my first language and maybe I'm missing something in my own phrases. Is there any other meaning there than:
"Mirror image does not trump/beat tremorsense/scent because these two abilities work exactly the same way vs someone using mirror image than someone not using it?"
That is pretty much the gist of it.
That is pretty much the gist of it.You already know the creatures square so all tremorsense does is tell you what you already know.I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.Wow, thank you for explaining me my own post again(see a few posts above).
Seriously, english is not my first language and maybe I'm missing something in my own phrases. Is there any other meaning there than:
"Mirror image does not trump/beat tremorsense/scent because these two abilities work exactly the same way vs someone using mirror image than someone not using it?"
Then I don't understand why the replies; yours and Dissinger's. Not that I find them offending, mind me. Just strange. *shrugs*
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Wow
What a long and heated debate. Just made 3rd level with my Wizard on the weekend. I surely will check out the spell description. So far MI wasn't in my top 10 list - but that might change.
In this regard (I don't have my books here with me) - is dealing damage from a non-targeted destroying the images.
I thought one of my fellow players got around the problem by just throwing a Alchemist Fire with intend on the floor of the square - going for a single point of splash damage to everyone (including images) in the square.
I can't tell if it actually was a MI (I thought there were only 2 images total and the caster would have been too high a level) - and of course the DM could have just been lenient.
As such the question is probably - will area attacks affect the MI or not. A fireball centered on the sqaure will hit the mage - will it do anything to the images?
Appology if this is written in bold in the spell description - I don't have my pdf here and my book is at home. And I just couldn't help to wonder after reading this heated discussion. The liklyhood is that it won't affect the MI as I can't assume all this heated discussion and an area spell would sidestep the problem.
Thod
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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In this regard (I don't have my books here with me) - is dealing damage from a non-targeted destroying the images.
I thought one of my fellow players got around the problem by just throwing a Alchemist Fire with intend on the floor of the square - going for a single point of splash damage to everyone (including images) in the square.
It is covered right in the spell description. :)
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
Then I don't understand why the replies; yours and Dissinger's. Not that I find them offending, mind me. Just strange. *shrugs*That is pretty much the gist of it.You already know the creatures square so all tremorsense does is tell you what you already know.I still fail to see where MI trumps tremorsense/scent.
They give you the very same information, the creature's square, with or without MI in the equation.Wow, thank you for explaining me my own post again(see a few posts above).
Seriously, english is not my first language and maybe I'm missing something in my own phrases. Is there any other meaning there than:
"Mirror image does not trump/beat tremorsense/scent because these two abilities work exactly the same way vs someone using mirror image than someone not using it?"
I have been off the site for a few days. I will try it this way.
Blindsight lets you know someone lives on 545 East Street(exactly where they are in a 5 ft square), and they are on the second floor in the second room on the right
Tremorsense/Blindsense/Scent let you know someone lives on 545 East Street(somewhere in that square), even if you never see them, but you won't know which room they occupy in the house. They just use different "technology" to accomplish the same goal.
Look at the square the person is standing on as a pressure plate. If something is there you know it, but you may not know if they are standing on the outside or middle of the pressure plate, as another example.
If you see someone at 545 East Street you know they live there, but not which room is theirs.
The advantage with the Tremorsense..... group is if you can't see the opponent you still have a general idea of where they are. If you can already see them you get no added benefits.
I have been off the site for a few days. I will try it this way.Blindsight lets you know someone lives on 545 East Street(exactly where they are in a 5 ft square), and they are on the second floor in the second room on the right
Tremorsense/Blindsense/Scent let you know someone lives on 545 East Street(somewhere in that square), even if you never see them, but you won't know which room they occupy in the house. They just use different "technology" to accomplish the same goal.Look at the square the person is standing on as a pressure plate. If something is there you know it, but you may not know if they are standing on the outside or middle of the pressure plate, as another example.
If you see someone at 545 East Street you know they live there, but not which room is theirs.
*sigh*
Just to make it clear, I know how scent & tremorsense work.(they have less resolution than sight or blindsight)I thank you for your effort to clarify this but you're misunderstanding me.
My sole point for the last 4 posts is that Mirror Image cannot trump(as in render useless or fool) scent or tremorsense because it's a visual effect, and those senses are not visual. They work the same regardless.
Would you cast MI if pitted against a blind dog? No. Why? Because it's useless. The dog is already screwed even if it can still know the square where you are. MI does not give you ANY advantage against scent and the like.
To follow your example, It doesn't matter if that man from East Street shares the house with his twin brother. You still can know where he lives, even if you cannot know the room for sure.
I have been off the site for a few days. I will try it this way.Blindsight lets you know someone lives on 545 East Street(exactly where they are in a 5 ft square), and they are on the second floor in the second room on the right
Tremorsense/Blindsense/Scent let you know someone lives on 545 East Street(somewhere in that square), even if you never see them, but you won't know which room they occupy in the house. They just use different "technology" to accomplish the same goal.Look at the square the person is standing on as a pressure plate. If something is there you know it, but you may not know if they are standing on the outside or middle of the pressure plate, as another example.
If you see someone at 545 East Street you know they live there, but not which room is theirs.
*sigh*
Just to make it clear, I know how scent & tremorsense work.(they have less resolution than sight or blindsight)
I thank you for your effort to clarify this but you're misunderstanding me.My sole point for the last 4 posts is that Mirror Image cannot trump(as in render useless or fool) scent or tremorsense because it's a visual effect, and those senses are not visual. They work the same regardless.
Would you cast MI if pitted against a blind dog? No. Why? Because it's useless. The dog is already screwed even if it can still know the square where you are. MI does not give you ANY advantage against scent and the like.
To follow your example, It doesn't matter if that man from East Street shares the house with his twin brother. You still can know where he lives, even if you cannot know the room for sure.
You are using "real-life" logic. If we go that route I agree with you, but as written at best it give you a 50% miss chance. I have learned to ignore common sense, to an extent when making rulings.
PS: I don't think that really helped. If I can think of a better way to say that I will.
...snip...
You are using "real-life" logic. If we go that route I agree with you, but as written at best it give you a 50% miss chance. I have learned to ignore common sense, to an extent when making rulings.
PS: I don't think that really helped. If I can think of a better way to say that I will.
R-L logic? where? The East Street man analogy is yours, not mine.
But if you mean the blind dog case, it's game mechanics we're discussing; there the 50% miss chance comes from blindness, not MI; my point = MI cannot affect scent directly.If you want to take MI into account the dog must use normal sight to be affected and then, as you well say, scent does not give any added benefit.
A related case is when you close your eyes on purpose to not be affected by MI. Then the virtual miss chance provided by MI(1 img 50%, 2 img 66%, 3 img 75% and so forth) is subtituted by the 50% provided by total concealment(blindness).
Then scent helps you pinpoint the square if you're adjacent and Blindfighting further reduces the miss chance to 25%(reroll once if miss due to concealment) and negates the penalties for being blind.
Again, my point is that MI no longer affects you, it's out of the equation.
Indirectly, the use of scent(or any other non visual sense) can be used to reduce the effectiveness of MI, and the drawbacks of such tactic can be overcome by the blindfigthing feat. That, also, is a fact that supports my point; MI is useless against scent.
My real point is stated thrice in this post already.
If you want o continue discussing it, I'm ok with it, but the way scent and the like work, I believe we agree on.
There's no need to continue beating the horse, it's dead already.
The only thing keeping you guys from complete agreement here is language!
Btw, I really really dislike this version of mirror image. It's more like blur or displacement than mirror image...
...snip...
You are using "real-life" logic. If we go that route I agree with you, but as written at best it give you a 50% miss chance. I have learned to ignore common sense, to an extent when making rulings.
PS: I don't think that really helped. If I can think of a better way to say that I will.
R-L logic? where? The East Street man analogy is yours, not mine.
But if you mean the blind dog case, it's game mechanics we're discussing; there the 50% miss chance comes from blindness, not MI; my point = MI cannot affect scent directly.
If you want to take MI into account the dog must use normal sight to be affected and then, as you well say, scent does not give any added benefit.A related case is when you close your eyes on purpose to not be affected by MI. Then the virtual miss chance provided by MI(1 img 50%, 2 img 66%, 3 img 75% and so forth) is subtituted by the 50% provided by total concealment(blindness).
Then scent helps you pinpoint the square if you're adjacent and Blindfighting further reduces the miss chance to 25%(reroll once if miss due to concealment) and negates the penalties for being blind.
Again, my point is that MI no longer affects you, it's out of the equation.Indirectly, the use of scent(or any other non visual sense) can be used to reduce the effectiveness of MI, and the drawbacks of such tactic can be overcome by the blindfigthing feat. That, also, is a fact that supports my point; MI is useless against scent.
My real point is stated thrice in this post already.
If you want o continue discussing it, I'm ok with it, but the way scent and the like work, I believe we agree on.
There's no need to continue beating the horse, it's dead already.
The real life logic is that a tactile detection system would ignore the images, and allow you to focus on the real person. So if magic was real you could ignore the images.
The way it works mechanically is would be like if you had a building with pressure sensors on the floor. If the pressure sensors covered a 5ft area you would know they were in that 5 ft area, but nothing more. It does not tell you which portion of the 5 ft area is being taken up like blindsight does.
Btw, I really really dislike this version of mirror image. It's more like blur or displacement than mirror image...
I don't like the fact that a miss can automatically hit an image, but I hated having all those minis on the map. That fact that the images were supposed to be shifting(IIRC)conflicted with the fact that players know by the rules the caster can't really be moving once one of them hits him.
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In this regard (I don't have my books here with me) - is dealing damage from a non-targeted destroying the images.
I thought one of my fellow players got around the problem by just throwing a Alchemist Fire with intend on the floor of the square - going for a single point of splash damage to everyone (including images) in the square.
It is covered right in the spell description. :)
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
Fatespinner
Sorry - I never thanked for the reply. MI went up in the list of spells I'm interested in. Still have a few too many spells - but currently it is still in.
I'm not necessarily look for overpowered spells - but rather for useful spells that also fit to my character. So far he is pretty great in acrobatics and he has Dodge and Mobility. So my wizard isn't afraid to move close to the combat and deliver some spells pretty short distance. This spell would add quite nicely.
Tumble into position - deliver a colour spray or burning hands - and then retreat before the last MI is popped.
Also for some reason due to lack of a cleric I tend to be the back-up healer. MI would help to let me feel safer while propping fighters back up.
Thod
The real life logic is that a tactile detection system would ignore the images, and allow you to focus on the real person. So if magic was real you could ignore the images.
The way it works mechanically is would be like if you had a building with pressure sensors on the floor. If the pressure sensors covered a 5ft area you would know they were in that 5 ft area, but nothing more. It does not tell you which portion of the 5 ft area is being taken up like blindsight does.
Ah, now I think I get where you're going with this real-life thing...
Logic, real-life based or not, says that a non-visual(tactile or sonic for example) sense cannot perceive the images(they're visual).
This we agree on, do we?
And thus it cannot be fooled by them, I might add. My point again.
...and allows you to focus on the real subject. Still true but with a caveat: Some non-visual senses are better than others. Again, we're talking of resolution here.
1st case; blindsense analogy. A low budget/tech detection system, only one sensor per 5' square.
2nd case; blindsight analogy. Higher budget/tech detection system, many sensors in the 5' square, enough to map the exact position of a body in the square.
See, in both buildings MI is useless because the sensor system cannot perceive them.
But in the 1st one, the sensors cannot exactly target an intruder inside a determinate square, they have to shoot blindly.
Think Indiana Jones and the lost Ark. The temple in the beginning with the golden head idol. When Indy activates the pressure plates in his hasty escape the dart traps have chance to miss the target. And they do, good for Indy.
In the second building, the sensor is infallible, period.
Mission Impossible this time. If his sweat drop ever falls to the floor Ethan Hunt is screwed in the computer room. The alarm sets off, always. Bad for Ethan.
In resume; even using real-life, examples -- a sort of anyway -- there are different degrees of effectivity for a non visual sensor. Just like in PF; blindsense vs blindsight are clear examples.
Like Robert Young says we were on the same boat all the time.
Do you see it now?
My only point would be, if you have eyes, and you are using them, Mirror Image will affect you.
If you have eyes and decide not to use them, that's fine. You take any penalties associated with that. However I would rule that since you are intentionally closing your eyes for a turn, you wouldn't be able to open them until your next turn.
If you never had eyes in the first place and rely on other senses, Mirror Image and all other spells, effects, and abilities that affect vision will not affect you.
The real life logic is that a tactile detection system would ignore the images, and allow you to focus on the real person. So if magic was real you could ignore the images.
The way it works mechanically is would be like if you had a building with pressure sensors on the floor. If the pressure sensors covered a 5ft area you would know they were in that 5 ft area, but nothing more. It does not tell you which portion of the 5 ft area is being taken up like blindsight does.Ah, now I think I get where you're going with this real-life thing...
Logic, real-life based or not, says that a non-visual(tactile or sonic for example) sense cannot perceive the images(they're visual).
This we agree on, do we?And thus it cannot be fooled by them, I might add. My point again.
...and allows you to focus on the real subject. Still true but with a caveat: Some non-visual senses are better than others. Again, we're talking of resolution here.
** spoiler omitted **...
I agree with you that it should logically, but I don't think that it does due to the fact that it(tremorsense)is no better than blindsense. It just overlaps, but does not stack with vision.
The vision combined with the tremorsense information should cross-reference and cancel out the mirror images, but I don't think that is RAW or RAI.
I don't think its gamebreaking though, as mirror image is only a 2nd level spell.
PS: Whether I would allow it in my games, and how I think it is intended to work are two different things. We agree on how it should work, but we don't agree on how it does work. To avoid going in circles I will stop here because I am pretty stuck on my interpretation on how this rule works.
Just cast see invisible or fairy fire, and get it over with,
Or if all else fails Nuke all the targets at once.
Neither see invisible or fairy fire would work
1) nobody is invisible, infact there is too many to be seen
2) fairy fire would affect all the images
Also nuking would generally not work, besides catching all the images in the area thus also the wizard, images will still be there.. likely a bit singed or battered.
My DM is not going to like the new, heavily buffed Mirror Image.
I agree with you that it should logically, but I don't think that it does due to the fact that it(tremorsense)is no better than blindsense. It just overlaps, but does not stack with vision.The vision combined with the tremorsense information should cross-reference and cancel out the mirror images, but I don't think that is RAW or RAI.
I don't think its gamebreaking though, as mirror image is only a 2nd level spell.
PS: Whether I would allow it in my games, and how I think it is intended to work are two different things. We agree on how it should work, but we don't agree on how it does work. To avoid going in circles I will stop here because I am pretty stuck on my interpretation on how this rule works.
I'm fine with that, my main concern was to be understood. Not to tell you or anyone how to play. :)
I'm fine with that, my main concern was to be understood. Not to tell you or anyone how to play. :)
The nidho-concerro peace accord. If only all debates could end so civilly.
I'm fine with that, my main concern was to be understood. Not to tell you or anyone how to play. :)
The nidho-concerro peace accord. If only all debates could end so civilly.
There never seemed to be a disagreement. I think that is why it only took 10 posts to clear things, between you;)
There never seemed to be a disagreement. I think that is why it only took 10 posts to clear things, between you;)I'm fine with that, my main concern was to be understood. Not to tell you or anyone how to play. :)
The nidho-concerro peace accord. If only all debates could end so civilly.
You're addressing people in a conversation that happened almost 4 years ago.
... unless you've got a Deloreon and 1.21 gigawatts, that probably isn't productive.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo--- arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/necromancy
This "Inhabits your square" stuff... do you all honestly play that every duplicate image appears within the same 5' square?Since that's exactly what the spell says it does, yes. And the 3.5 FAQ recommended that the spell be treated this way as well.
The same one the caster inhabits? If you can target a 5' square there's just a 50% miss chance, and that's not how Mirror Image is described.If the attacker decides to close her/her eyes, then it would work that way. Otherwise you have to pick an image and swing at that instead.
Since 2nd ed, whenever a Wizard cast Mirror Image, we had the images appear in random squares around the caster, not in the same square. If we were using miniatures, we got another miniature for each image.Which lead to endless debates about what happens when their isn't enough room, what if the squares can't be occupied without damage, etc., ad nauseum.
Having them in the same 5' square just seems... a bit crowded, especially when you have over 6 images plus the real caster.I think that you're over thinking it. What is important is the mechanical effect, not the visualization. The spell is balanced and functions the way it always did.
I'd love to get an official answer from a dev on this.Well, if you mean about the scent interaction, then sure, but given the wording for scent, i.e. identify the square occupied, then it seems pretty clear. If you mean clarification about the spell, well, they did specifically change the wording, so that, in and of itself, is clarification. Mechanically the spell works the same way it all ways did. It makes duplicates that might get struck instead of the caster. The only thing that has really changed is the fluff.
I think it is important to get a little reality here. First read the definition of Pinpoint from Webster: "ADJECTIVE
absolutely precise; to the finest degree:"this weapon fired shells with pinpoint accuracy"
synonyms: precise · strict · exact · meticulous · scrupulous · punctilious · accurate · [more]
VERB
find or locate exactly:
"one flare had pinpointed the target" · [more]
Secondly, let's look at real Earthly world examples. The wolf, grizzly bear and polar bear see the world from scent and not from sight. Their world is an olfactory world. I assure you if presented with illusionary images a bear can easily bite the one image that is presenting it with scent and ignore the images that offer NO scent. The language of the skill is clear. You pinpoint the location of the target! Refer to the definition of pinpoint!