First of all, why are the sorcerer level 1 abilities limited to 4+cha times per day? I thought that in the beta they were there as an "always available" backup weapon! The damage sucks, especially at higher levels and it's now it's not even something you can rely on. This is compounded with the claw abilities, since sorcerer's almost never want to get into melee to begin with!
So, I'm seriously asking "why"? What is the internal rationale for the daily limits? Does anybody know the answer? Can anybody even speculate? I consider myself to be pretty fair when it comes to "balance", but I can find very little reason here.
Furthermore, I can't even focus on this feature. The character I'm making wants to focus on his "latent draconic heritage" (whether or not it's "optimal"). I figured I'd play nice with the rules, and take Improved Unarmed Attack so that I can actually focus on melee for the entire day (again, I'm NOT here to discuss optimization). So now, in order to raise my to-hit throughout the day, I need both Weapon Focus (Natural) AND Weapon Focus (Unarmed)?!
Great, even if I try to USE a crappy ability, I continue to get screwed on feats as well! Seriously, what's the deal, here?! I'm going for a flavor character which seems like it's supported by the mechanics (You get a claw attack, and Dragon Disciple adds strength bonuses and a bite attack), but when I get down to the nitty-gritty, it's not only sub-optimal, but it's barely even playable.
So far my solution is to take "Weapon Focus (myself)" and just apply my +1 to any attack that I make with my body ... and just not tell the DM that I'm doing it.
Anyway, what are your opinions on this? Again ... please don't discuss optimizations. This is about concepts, flavor and game balance.
|
Natural weapons have never been classified as Unarmed strikes. They have been different throughout 3rd edition. It's what keeps vampire monks from flurrying for even more negative levels against a party.
I'm more curious why every sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claw attacks wants to use them so much. You shouldn't need to make more then like 7 claw attacks in any given day. x.x;
I find the claw attacks useful for making attacks of opportunity.
Natural weapons have never been classified as Unarmed strikes. They have been different throughout 3rd edition. It's what keeps vampire monks from flurrying for even more negative levels against a party.
Okay, what part of my post lead you to believe that I DIDN'T already know this?
I'm more curious why every sorcerer with a bloodline that grants claw attacks wants to use them so much. You shouldn't need to make more then like 7 claw attacks in any given day. x.x;
Are you speaking in terms of optimization here? The thing I mentioned three times that I didn't want to talk about? Maybe I WANT to focus on a melee build wherein I would need more than 7 per day. Did you even read my post?
I find the claw attacks useful for making attacks of opportunity.
My DM and I aren't certain that's possible unless you prepare ahead of time. The argument comes down to whether you can take a "free" action (to summon your claws) before your attack is even provoked (thus allowing you to take the attack). Whether or not it's allowable doesn't really apply to my character, at least, since I took Improved Unarmed Strike, so I threaten anyway.
|
The part where you said you have Weapon Focus (natural weapon) and Weapon Focus (Unarmed). Why would you do this when you can grow your claws out?
A sorcerer just isn't going to be very good at melee until he can start taking polymorph spells. There's no way around this (that I can think of). Sorcerers just aren't built for melee.
As for the reason, it's probably mostly for flavor. Claws for a sorcerer is relatively trivial, so I doubt anybody, including the designers, bothered to really look at it. In the end, the way the bloodline and the class are setup is not meant for a character to be full melee, he still needs to use his magic as his primary talents, even if it is to buff himself for melee.
There was some debates on arcane warrior gish classes, and until Paizo really focuses on that, not sure if you can build what you want into something playable.
The part where you said you have Weapon Focus (natural weapon) and Weapon Focus (Unarmed). Why would you do this when you can grow your claws out?
Because I want to focus on the melee aspect of the character. I want to be able to brawl all day long and still be have a high enough to-hit to actually hit. I don't like having to take the same feat twice for what is basically the same attack (I hit you with my body).
A sorcerer just isn't going to be very good at melee until he can start taking polymorph spells. There's no way around this (that I can think of). Sorcerers just aren't built for melee.
True enough. However, until I reach that point, I want to work on my feat repertoire so that when I DO get those features, I can really focus on them. I also want to be able to handle myself unpolymorphed. None of the spells I have planned out deal damage directly, so I'm going to rely on physical attacks.
As for the reason, it's probably mostly for flavor. Claws for a sorcerer is relatively trivial, so I doubt anybody, including the designers, bothered to really look at it. In the end, the way the bloodline and the class are setup is not meant for a character to be full melee, he still needs to use his magic as his primary talents, even if it is to buff himself for melee.
So, what's the point of "buffing yourself for melee" if you only CAN melee for 7 (or so) rounds per day? Of course you could just use a weapon, but that kind of defeats the point of being able to grow claws to begin with!
There was some debates on arcane warrior gish classes, and until Paizo really focuses on that, not sure if you can build what you want into something playable.
Under the current rules, that does seem to be the case. I guess I'm just curious if there's anybody who uses Sorcerer claws for anything other than a low level super-emergency back-up weapon, which seems like a waste of a "base" feature.
I do. One of the first Pathfinder houserules I made that benefited a full caster was to rule that the claws are at-will.
(Infact, I happen to have a sorcerer npc who uses the claws and the white dragon bloodline, combined with Chill Touch and energy substitution(admittedly kind of iffy in this case, but it's logical) for some pretty sweet meelee damage.)
Unfortunately, my GM is being an ultra stickler for Teh Rulez (with the exception of using low-item rules), so I doubt he'd allow a houserule like that. It DOES seem to be a popular one, though. The only "problem" I see is that it does allow two attacks per round at full BAB starting at level one. Then again, any other character could take TWF and get the same thing, so I don't even see that as a problem. Okay, TWF gives you -2 to your attacks, but my claws start at BAB 0 and don't do as much damage. Grrr. Damn GMs sometimes.
Is there anybody out there that would have a problem with this houerule? For balance reasons? Flavor reasons? ANY reasons (besides being a stickler for the rules)?!
.... Okay, nevermind. I decided to actually ask my GM. Even Mr. Stickler doesn't have a problem with this. Heck, he was going to give it to me anyway.
So, I ask again. .... WHY Paizo!? WHY? Even MY GM is cool with it. That's just ... weird.
Because I want to focus on the melee aspect of the character. I want to be able to brawl all day long and still be have a high enough to-hit to actually hit. I don't like having to take the same feat twice for what is basically the same attack (I hit you with my body).
It's really a case of having your cake and eating it too. Sorcerers are not made to be a Brawly McHitstuff melee class. If you want that you should probably pick a different class. I can understand what you want to do with the character, but why would you honestly expect a low BAB casting class to fare well in melee?
Also, if you really just like the dragon-sorcerer flavor, flip through the book a bit more. I swear I saw a prestige class for that somewhere...
Maybe you just wanted a decent BAB on a caster. Hm...maybe there's a prestige class in the book for that as well...
I find the claw attacks useful for making attacks of opportunity.My DM and I aren't certain that's possible unless you prepare ahead of time. The argument comes down to whether you can take a "free" action (to summon your claws) before your attack is even provoked (thus allowing you to take the attack). Whether or not it's allowable doesn't really apply to my character, at least, since I took Improved Unarmed Strike, so I threaten anyway.
Here are the rules that I believe apply:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
(Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.)
Attack of Opportunity: ... An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)....
-----------------------
My conclusion: Free Actions can be taken during another action. An Attack of Opportunity specifically states it is a Single Melee Attack that is resolved IMMEDIATELY hence an Immediate Action as they also typically take place on someone else's turn.
Attack of Opportunity Triggers Immediately, Free Action Claws during the Immediate Action, Single Melee Attack Resolves
After which the claws would remain out for 3+ CHA modifier in rounds.
For some reason, they found natural weapons too powerful. They wanted to stop people from 1 level dipping for the natural attacks and moving on. I too wish this wasn't the way things were, but this is probably why they are that way.
What gets me is the dragon disciple still has limited use of their claws, melee class my )$$
|
For some reason, they found natural weapons too powerful. They wanted to stop people from 1 level dipping for the natural attacks and moving on. I too wish this wasn't the way things were, but this is probably why they are that way.
What gets me is the dragon disciple still has limited use of their claws, melee class my )$$
Hmm, I really think then that it should be 3 + Charisma modifier + 1/2 sorcerer level rounds per day. That way it won't really be of much use to those that dip.
Sounds like you should be playing a druid to me. :P
That would just be a DIFFERENT set of hinderances...
my group has houseruled the claws back to being unlimited. Mostly because if as a 1/2 bab caster you want them to be worth anything at all you have to invest feats and stats into them where you normally wouldnt. It ends up being the focus of the character. The other 1st level abilities are either touch attacks or ranged touch, these are things casters already do and require no additional investment.
And honestly 2 claw attacks at level 1 for 1d4 at +0 bab is not even close to an issue. A two weapon fighter is much better, this just means the claws are worth something. It is practically the whole point of the dragon disciple prestige class, so having it a 3+cha times per day is just stupid in my opinion.
Curently I am playing a sorc 5/dragon disciple 5 melee guy, and it actually works pretty good. When i am buffed i keep up with the two weapon fighter and the barb, if im not buffed not so much. Its still a fun character to play.
|
|
Whilst this isn't rules as written, this is how I adjudicate these in my Campaign:
Firstly the times a day is how many times you can grow or shrink them.
Secondly any spell that requires a somatic component cannot be cast while the claws are out. (remember that you are doing dual dagger damage and better with them so I cant see them as being just long fingernails)
My conclusion: Free Actions can be taken during another action. An Attack of Opportunity specifically states it is a Single Melee Attack that is resolved IMMEDIATELY hence an Immediate Action as they also typically take place on someone else's turn.
Attack of Opportunity Triggers Immediately, Free Action Claws during the Immediate Action, Single Melee Attack Resolves
After which the claws would remain out for 3+ CHA modifier in rounds.
To make an attack of opportunity, you need to threaten the creature provoking it. If you don't threaten, you don't get the immediate opportunity attack to begin with, iirc.
Unless you have improved unarmed strike, you don't threaten anybody with your bare hands, can't make opportunity attacks, don't get the immediate action to do so, and thus have no action for the free action pop claws to piggy back on.
Now, most DMs are not going to be such sticklers for the rules as written that they wouldn't allow you to do this anyway, even in organized settings. And even if they are, there are several ways to get around it, including taking improved unarmed strike, or carrying a melee weapon that you could attack with in one hand just to earn the opportunity action needed to pop the claws and attack with your other hand instead.
Of course, all this is pretty moot, since the claws themselves are hardly worth bothering with in the first place, and you really should be avoiding melee anyway.
If you really want to melee with a sorcerer, you should probably mix in some fighter and look at the dragon disciple and eldritch knight PrCs, as previously mentioned. Or ask your DM about converting the duskblade or psionic warrior.
|
|
Under the current rules, that does seem to be the case. I guess I'm just curious if there's anybody who uses Sorcerer claws for anything other than a low level super-emergency back-up weapon, which seems like a waste of a "base" feature.
There was some debates on arcane warrior gish classes, and until Paizo really focuses on that, not sure if you can build what you want into something playable.I do. One of the first Pathfinder houserules I made that benefited a full caster was to rule that the claws are at-will.
(Infact, I happen to have a sorcerer npc who uses the claws and the white dragon bloodline, combined with Chill Touch and energy substitution(admittedly kind of iffy in this case, but it's logical) for some pretty sweet meelee damage.)
Yeah this is perfectly reasonable unless he had a DM that thought the book was right no matter what. Thankfully, the DM reasoned this would not be unbalancing at all (and I can't imagine it would be).
My conclusion: Free Actions can be taken during another action. An Attack of Opportunity specifically states it is a Single Melee Attack that is resolved IMMEDIATELY hence an Immediate Action as they also typically take place on someone else's turn.
Attack of Opportunity Triggers Immediately, Free Action Claws during the Immediate Action, Single Melee Attack Resolves
After which the claws would remain out for 3+ CHA modifier in rounds.
To make an attack of opportunity, you need to threaten the creature provoking it. If you don't threaten, you don't get the immediate opportunity attack to begin with, iirc.
Unless you have improved unarmed strike, you don't threaten anybody with your bare hands, can't make opportunity attacks, don't get the immediate action to do so, and thus have no action for the free action pop claws to piggy back on.
However you could turn on your claws as a free action when they do something that would provoke, and since you are now threatening them you could take the AoO.
My conclusion: Free Actions can be taken during another action. An Attack of Opportunity specifically states it is a Single Melee Attack that is resolved IMMEDIATELY hence an Immediate Action as they also typically take place on someone else's turn.
Attack of Opportunity Triggers Immediately, Free Action Claws during the Immediate Action, Single Melee Attack Resolves
After which the claws would remain out for 3+ CHA modifier in rounds.
No. Free Actions cannot be taken outside of your own turn unless they specifically state otherwise (and yes, speaking does specifically state otherwise). Also, AoOs are not Immediate Actions; you'd never be able to make more than one of them in a round if they were. AoOs are not one of the five action types (free, immediate, swift, move, standard).
Also, if you really just like the dragon-sorcerer flavor, flip through the book a bit more. I swear I saw a prestige class for that somewhere...
Maybe you just wanted a decent BAB on a caster. Hm...maybe there's a prestige class in the book for that as well...
Well, thank you for being snarky and insulting. I assure you that I have every intention of going into Dragon Disciple. The +4 strength and various transformations and buffs will make up for the lack of BAB while piling on damage and allowing me to be a near-full caster. However, and here's where I return the snark ... DRAGON DISCIPLES HAVE THE SAME "LIMITED PER DAY" PROBLEM THAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. So you see. You sound like a jerk AND didn't help.
As to the guy that suggested that I "should" be playing a Druid. Not only "should" I be playing the character that fits my interests and the campaign, BUT I think you also missed the point. My focus is on a "base" (level 1) ability that seems almost entirely useless. I'm curious as to why they did this. I'm curious as to game balance and if allowing "unlimited use" will break anything. I am NOT interested in "what I should be playing". That reeks of optimization, which I've already mentioned four times that I'm not interested in.
|
Also, if you really just like the dragon-sorcerer flavor, flip through the book a bit more. I swear I saw a prestige class for that somewhere...
Maybe you just wanted a decent BAB on a caster. Hm...maybe there's a prestige class in the book for that as well...
Well, thank you for being snarky and insulting. I assure you that I have every intention of going into Dragon Disciple. The +4 strength and various transformations and buffs will make up for the lack of BAB while piling on damage and allowing me to be a near-full caster. However, and here's where I return the snark ... DRAGON DISCIPLES HAVE THE SAME "LIMITED PER DAY" PROBLEM THAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. So you see. You sound like a jerk AND didn't help.
As to the guy that suggested that I "should" be playing a Druid. Not only "should" I be playing the character that fits my interests and the campaign, BUT I think you also missed the point. My focus is on a "base" (level 1) ability that seems almost entirely useless. I'm curious as to why they did this. I'm curious as to game balance and if allowing "unlimited use" will break anything. I am NOT interested in "what I should be playing". That reeks of optimization, which I've already mentioned four times that I'm not interested in.
I think most of the folks I've talked to agree with the claw limitations being a little silly. I like your concept, it sounds like something we would get at our gaming table, and I was glad to see you say that your DM houseruled that for you. I mean the point of the game is to play the kind of PC that you want to play. Good luck with him, he sounds like alot of fun.
Beginners melee sorcere's build. presuming no dipping.
Str 14 Dx 12 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 8 Char 16 (this is not a point build this is reccomendations)
Consider adding you favoured class bonus into HP
Feats: (assumed human) scribe scroll. light armour training. (notably this is more efficient if you class dip into almost anything)
Wear armour. Use the shield spell (they will stack). bulk up on your use magic device score and make everything a scroll party rather than hard casting anything (or stock up only on spells that can wait until armour is off)
after first level consider power attack.
That said, I reccommend Highly moving into barbarian (for the limited duration rage to go along with your limited duration claws) or fighter (for the tasty tasty extra feat plus the free armour training) at least for a single level dip (you will hardly notice it, and it will remain usefull if you move into dragon disciple)
Most of all, remember you are the least capable melee class. making yourself into a semi-capable melee class requires sacrificing some potent sorcerer abilities. make sure it's worth it.
batts
The reason probably is the one lvl dip for a set of fancy claws, I think any GM worth anything should be able to adjust the rules in minor ways to make the game more enjoyable, no set of rules I ever read are perfect I never expected the Pathfinder RPG to be either.
It would be ok to start the claws like described, though I think it is reasonable to make them appear at will at lvl 5 or 6.
I'd just make the same suggestion someone else did, take a few levels of fighter, both to pad out your BAB, and for some extra feats (to get that Improved Unarmed Strike feat).
As long as you have IUS, you can just use a free action to make the punch that you threaten with into claws, meaning you don't really need the Weapon Focus (unarmed) feat. I'd say two feats to make a non-melee class into a decent melee threat is a fair feat tax.
It seems you have the times per day thing figured out, as your GM is gonna allow at will.
As for why Paizo did it, I suspect it's to discourage using it as a "dip" level.
First of all, why are the sorcerer level 1 abilities limited to 4+cha times per day? I thought that in the beta they were there as an "always available" backup weapon! The damage sucks, especially at higher levels and it's now it's not even something you can rely on. This is compounded with the claw abilities, since sorcerer's almost never want to get into melee to begin with!
So, I'm seriously asking "why"? What is the internal rationale for the daily limits? Does anybody know the answer? Can anybody even speculate? I consider myself to be pretty fair when it comes to "balance", but I can find very little reason here.
Why? Because it's powerful for the level you get it at.
Look at it this way. For 3+Cha rounds per day, you're effectively getting Improved Unarmed Strike (doing 1d4, not 1d3), AND Two Weapon Fighting (without attack penalties, or a Flurry of Blows without penalty).
And it gets better. At 5th level, your claws are magic - you have a magic weapon that can't be disarmed. Further on it gets more damage and then gets extra magical damage.
Now, as you go up in level it becomes less attractive, but that's pretty much true of all 1st level bonus abilities - check out 'Heavenly Fire' for the Celestial Bloodline. Great at 1st level. Not so much at 10th level.
So the design philosophy for 1st level powers (Sorcerer and Wizard) seems to be: "Give them something nifty and strong at 1st level, but doesn't scale up (as well) as they gain levels*." I can see the logic behind this, as low level wizards and sorcerers are WEAK and needed the boost. At mid level these characters are no longer weak and no longer need boosting, so the power tails off.
So again, to answer "Why?": because it's very good for a 1st level power, that's why. And in my opinion, it's a defensive power more than an offensive one - best used when someone steps up to you to force you to cast defensively. You pop the claws and rip them up. At very low levels, it should be fairly effective, if you have a halfway decent STR (never understood why people neglect STR on arcane spellcasters - I like being able to carry gear without being medium load or worse). You're right, you don't want to get into melee as a sorcerer - but if you can't avoid it, those with Claws have an ace in the hole. Like when you get swallowed whole.
And since you asked for opinions, yes, I think it's both fair and reasonably balanced. I agree that focusing on this ability isn't really a viable option. Any more than focusing on any other 1st level Sorcerer power would be, I guess. If you want flavor for your Draconic bloodline, choose the feats listed as bonus feats for your bloodline (as regular feats). That would be flavorful.
Me, I'm still miffed that humans lost their free Martial Weapon Proficiency. Shoot.
* There are exceptions, of course. The Diviner Wizard power keeps getting better at a steady rate, for example.
Hellic, thank you. That was a pretty well thought out answering of my questions. You are, of course, correct; the 1st level abilities don't stay usable even as fall-back options for very long. Why should I expect the claws to be any different?
To everybody that gave me "build" ideas, I would like to point out that this board is called "general discussion" and not "how to build your PC" Or even "optimization board". I already have my build. Now, if you want to discuss various builds as they relate game balance with the claws, then great, I'd love to hear it! Otherwise, I am not interested (for a myriad of reasons) in taking levels of fighter, barbarian, monk or anything else that's not on my agenda.
As far as my personal build goes, my main goal is an RP one. My secondary purpose is to make the most out of the Dragon Disciple class. It seems that the whole shtick of the DD is to empower a sorcerer to be able to handle melee. +4 str, +2 con, +3 Natural Armor, an added bite attack and a focus on transforming into things that are really big and strong. I want to make the most of this "draconic heritage" of mine so that when I'm level 10 or so, I can really start tearing things apart!
Again, to those that suggest level dips. I would like to point out that DD has an almost full caster progression. You lose 3 caster levels total. You only lose 8 caster levels if you get out when the getting is good. Yes, my charisma suffers because of my focus on strength, but provided I avoid spells that have saving throws (summon monster, party buffs, terrain manipulation) then I really can have my cake and eat it too. (MY GM is using some low-item rules, so I can be assured that by level 20 I'll at least have a 30 strength and 19 charisma).
The only thing that was throwing a wrench into a plan that I was otherwise happy with was the per day thing. The truth is that I will have a poor to-hit and will need to do everything I can to make it up. That includes taking weapon focus. I would LIKE to focus on my core concept (that of BEING a dragon and tearing you apart), but it almost seems like a waste of a feat to add +1 to something only 5 times per day (I only have a 14 charisma right now). I could take Weapon Focus (dagger) or something, but then I'm better off using daggers, which defeats the point of focusing on being dragonblooded for me (Again there are RP concerns here, especially in regards to race).
My GM's "fix" by the way was not to make the ability completely at-will. He recognized the whole "perfect TWF" thing. The compromise is that I get that ability as listed. However, I gain an additional ability to grow a single hand of claws whenever I want. So now I get two-weapon fighting 5 times per day, but I can still use a single claw attack at-will so I don't have to spread my feat resources over several weapons.
well maybe you can convince him to make the ability at will all together as soon as you hit the prestige class.. claws will still only allow two attacks one each even when your BAB goes over + 6, so don't think it actually is unbalanced, though you keep full BAB and full strength modifier with both.
also you might want to consider feats usually usable by monsters :
improved natural attack
improved natural armor
flyby attack
multi attack (for when you get a bite attack)
well maybe you can convince him to make the ability at will all together as soon as you hit the prestige class.. claws will still only allow two attacks one each even when your BAB goes over + 6, so don't think it actually is unbalanced, though you keep full BAB and full strength modifier with both.
also you might want to consider feats usually usable by monsters :
improved natural attack
improved natural armor
flyby attack
multi attack (for when you get a bite attack)
Good point about the +6 BAB thing, since I'll have two attacks anyway.
As far as considerations, I already have considered them. I'm planning to have Improved Natural Attack by level 5. As far as Multi Attack goes ... I'd like to point out that it wouldn't do anything for the build. Both claws and the bite are already made at the full attack bonus, so there are no penalties to reduce!
I'm rather curious as to why Improved Natural Armor can be taken multiple times. Yeah, it's for monsters, but it still seems to go against how feats normally work. It doesn't really matter, though. My feat list is going to be pretty full anyway. Especially since I'm thinking about taking 5 levels of Lore Master from 15 through 20. Again ... this is a role playing consideration! I don't need anybody telling me how it won't work in various ways. (Actually, I can get an extra +1 to attack from Lore Master, which I'll probably need more than the blindsense capstone).
true, multiple natural attacks changed a bit in pathfinder, it would really only help you if you combine natural attacks with weapon attacks, or a touch attack with natural attacks.
probably not worth the feat.
My point is that people have posted extensively to aid you in your desires, and it seems that people are just repeating the same thing now, and going on and on.
Have you not solved your problem yet?
And holy hell, long enough post for something so simple.
CUT YOUR POSTS DOWN.
Okay, it's spam whatever, want me to delete it?
. . . and remember to try and be civil to other people on the boards to foster a sense of community, even if they might have missed the point of the original thread.
Wait, that wasn't one of your points, was it?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Both of these Characters are the beginnings of Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple Builds that focus almost exclusively on using their claws in battle.
Charsis Wyrmscale is a 1st level Shoanti Barbarian who becomes a Red Draconic Sorcerer for 4 levels then goes into Dragon Disciple.
Ryethil Ka'vin is a Forgotten Realms Wood Elf whose build goes Ranger/Green Draconic Sorcerer/Ranger/Green Draconic Sorcerer/Ranger/Dragon Disciple-->
GMs in both games have house ruled that the Claws are permanent, mainly due to the fact that I made the builds during BETA and they just wouldn't have worked as well under PFRPG Rules, but also because they agreed with me that not having them full time was silly, especially since the damage got a Nerf.
Incidently, I have no problem with the damage getting said Nerf, just with the x/day uses. This is however one of the 2 things that changed from BETA that I hate and am very unhappy about.
My point is that people have posted extensively to aid you in your desires, and it seems that people are just repeating the same thing now, and going on and on.
Have you not solved your problem yet?
(for those just joining in, there are a couple of deleted posts that aren't important).
Anyway, I don't think that people are just rehashing the same old things. I feel that the single most profound post was Helic's, which is pretty low on the page! I also think you missed the discussion about Multi Attack, which is also pertinent in a thread about natural attacks.
As far as solving my problem. Somewhat, yes. Helic answered the question by (quite frankly) pointing out some obvious points that I had missed. That, coupled with a general impression I get that "they should be unlimited", and I definitely have something to work with. I thank everybody who understood this thread who provided thoughtful insights.
GMs in both games have house ruled that the Claws are permanent, mainly due to the fact that I made the builds during BETA and they just wouldn't have worked as well under PFRPG Rules, but also because they agreed with me that not having them full time was silly, especially since the damage got a Nerf.
Wait, these characters have actually been played!? THIS is exactly what I wanted to hear about! Dragonblooded sorcerers that focus on their claws! Can you tell me more about how it went? Were these characters effective enough? Were they too effective? Did having multiple attacks at your full bonus pose problems? Did the other players feel that you were stealing their spotlights? I'm very curious.
I also think Helic's post kicked ass. Actually, I've been reading a lot of the posts, and have been specifically looked at multi and natural attacks.
It's just that there is so much text walls that people are starting to annoy me.
Aside from that, I was responding specifically to the one persons post, and no one elses really.
But I do apologize.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
GMs in both games have house ruled that the Claws are permanent, mainly due to the fact that I made the builds during BETA and they just wouldn't have worked as well under PFRPG Rules, but also because they agreed with me that not having them full time was silly, especially since the damage got a Nerf.Wait, these characters have actually been played!?
Unfortunately not as yet. :(
Charsis has been played in a PbP but he is only just about to hit level 2 (yes it has taken that long... PbPs a re slooooow) and move into Red Dragon Sorcerer and so I have yet to see how well his Claws go (and the PbP is faltering so I may not even get that chance).
Ryethil was made for a game that has yet to start.
Sorry. :(
Unfortunately not as yet. :(
Dang. Oh well. I'm at least glad to hear that yet another GM has said okay to "unlimited uses", even if it is for legacy reasons. Thanks, though!
Response to flash_cxxi
I have the desire to let you play him in my Pathfinder PbP game >< So that you could continue to use the character and we could find out.
Unfortunately the game is breeching on 8 characters now >< So yeah... ><
I am not sure what websites you use, but may I suggest GaiaOnline also as one of the PbP places to find Dungeons and Dragons games.
Also, if things go well enough and school isn't much of a hassle. I may just end up opening up another game so that perhaps you could try the character there.
It's just that there is so much text walls that people are starting to annoy me.
I actually agree. I don't much care for text walls and I feel bad when I make them! Actually, I'm not sure that very many people DID read one of my larger posts. I made a VERY obvious mistake that nobody pointed out. Oh well. That's what I get for being too verbose!
My mistake was saying that I would prefer to NOT take all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple, that way I only lose 8 caster levels. Obviously I meant to say TWO caster levels. (To do that, you only take 8 levels of DD).
But I Do apologize.
Accepted. :)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Response to flash_cxxi
I have the desire to let you play him in my Pathfinder PbP game >< So that you could continue to use the character and we could find out.
Also, if things go well enough and school isn't much of a hassle. I may just end up opening up another game so that perhaps you could try the character there.
Thanks for the offer. :)
If you ever find the time or space then I'd be happy to join up.
Response to flash_cxxi
I have the desire to let you play him in my Pathfinder PbP game >< So that you could continue to use the character and we could find out.
Also, if things go well enough and school isn't much of a hassle. I may just end up opening up another game so that perhaps you could try the character there.
Thanks for the offer. :)
If you ever find the time or space then I'd be happy to join up.
Then in that case, in the regards that IF there is a private message or friends system on here. I am completely unaware of how to access it.
Would you be kind enough to answer a question or two for me. These questions being as follows; the reason for them being so that I may contact you.
Do you have an account on GaiaOnline?
Do you use MSN?
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
No and no, but you can contact me via e-mail. flash_cxxi@hotmail.com or if you're really keen then here is me on Facebook.Would you be kind enough to answer a question or two for me. These questions being as follows; the reason for them being so that I may contact you.
Do you have an account on GaiaOnline?
Do you use MSN?
*casts the Wish spell (would preordering APG work as a material component in this case?)*
If only there was a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide, that would allow the Sorcerer to use his claws at will... and perhaps a feat chain that would increase the amount of rays and then allow the at-will laser show.
*casts the Wish spell (would preordering APG work as a material component in this case?)*
If only there was a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide, that would allow the Sorcerer to use his claws at will... and perhaps a feat chain that would increase the amount of rays and then allow the at-will laser show.
I was actually thinking that a feat along these lines wouldn't be a bad idea. I get why at wills got scaled back in the final game, because it made cantrips more useful, but putting in an option that would take up some resources, and thus wouldn't appeal to everyone, might not be a bad idea.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
I was actually thinking that a feat along these lines wouldn't be a bad idea. I get why at wills got scaled back in the final game, because it made cantrips more useful, but putting in an option that would take up some resources, and thus wouldn't appeal to everyone, might not be a bad idea.*casts the Wish spell (would preordering APG work as a material component in this case?)*
If only there was a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide, that would allow the Sorcerer to use his claws at will... and perhaps a feat chain that would increase the amount of rays and then allow the at-will laser show.
+1. I would be content with this solution.
If only there was a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide, that would allow the Sorcerer to use his claws at will
How many of you spent $2 to get Class Options Volume 1: Sorcerer Bloodlines?
I ask because I did. And guess what? They DO have a feat to extend your level 1 abilities! Behold, the amazing power of NOT being limited to 3+charisa mod times per day! In fact, with the cost of only a single feat, you can extend your uses by another charisma mod times per day!
.... That's right. the feat already exists and it gives you a few more uses per day. I love Pathfinder, but seriously ... screw that. Oh, and it specifically says "can only be taken once". I guess the power levels were threatening to go over 9,000 or something.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
If only there was a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide, that would allow the Sorcerer to use his claws at willHow many of you spent $2 to get Class Options Volume 1: Sorcerer Bloodlines?
I did and I saw that. It is a very nice Feat for the other 1st Level Abilities but for the Claws that still doesn't really cut it for me.
Another possibility is an Alternate Class feature for Dragon Disciples where instead of a Bite Attack you gain unlimited uses of your Claws? Although in saying that I don't think I've ever seen an ACF for a Prestige Class so that may not work after all...