I'm used to playing with crafters in the party so tend to look at the craft price more then purchase price, my mistake! Was not intentional. The other items appear to be in line.
Let's see... so just drop it down to a Headband of Int + 4, and a Belt of Dex +4 for 32,000gp leaving another 6,000 gp open.
That will reduce the hit and damage by 1.
Of course, you could drop Grenadier and pick up Craft Wondrous Item instead to be able to craft all your items at half price and get that +1 hit and damage back. I don't know if that's a legit idea for this thread though.
I'm used to playing with crafters in the party so tend to look at the craft price more then purchase price, my mistake! Was not intentional. The other items appear to be in line.
Let's see... so just drop it down to a Headband of Int + 4, and a Belt of Dex +4 for 32,000gp leaving another 6,000 gp open.
That will reduce the hit and damage by 1.
Of course, you could drop Grenadier and pick up Craft Wondrous Item instead to be able to craft all your items at half price and get that +1 hit and damage back. I don't know if that's a legit idea for this thread though.
Generally the rules for character wealth are for the total value of items owned, regardless of how you got them.
Ability Scores: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
STR: 8 (-1)
DEX: 20 (+5) (+2 race, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (+4 belt)
INT: 24 (+6) (+1 level, +2 race, +6 headband)
WIS: 14 (+2) (+1 level)
CHA: 10 (0)
HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +14 Will: +7
AC: 24 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 18 (+7 +3 mithral shirt, +5 Dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: bomb +15, 5d6+7 dmg
Class Abilities:
Alchemy
bomb, 5d6, 16/day
Mutagen
Poison use
Poison immunity
Discovery; frost bomb
Discovery; explosive bomb
Other non-relevant stuff
BAB: +7 CMB: +6 CMD: 21
Feats:
1-Point Blank Shot
3-Craft Wondrous Item
5-Weapon Focus (bomb)
7-Far Shot
9-Toughness
Skills:
He's awesome at making Alchemical items.
Other stuff, doesn't matter
Gear:
bombs, lots of bombs
16,000 +4 Int helm
16,000 +4 belt dex
13,100 +3 mithral shirt
4,000 cloak of resistence
2000 +1 Amulet of Natural Armor
2000 +1 Ring of Protection
2000Handy Haversack
4000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Made some changes, based on the gear mistake. As well as Jason clarifying Vital Strike and bombs.
Direct Hit DPR - 24.5
Splash DPR - 12
Is there a door prize for least DPR ever in an optimized class?
whoops, forgot to update the new Int score, should be 22.
Ability Scores:
STR: 26 (+8) (15 base. +1 lvl, +4 beast shape II, +4 belt, +2 racial)
DEX: 12 (+1) (14 base, -2 beast shape II)
CON: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 mutagen)
INT: 12 (+1) (+2 headband)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 6-9 (-?) (-1d4 mutagen)
HP: 88 HP (10d8+40)
Saving Throws
Fort: +12 Ref: +11 Will: +7
AC: 29 - Touch 10, Flatfooted 28 (+1 Dex, + 10 (+1 fullplate), +4 Natural Armor, +4 Barkskin, +1 insight, -1 size)
Attacks
Dire Tiger Form (twice a day with extracts for 10 minutes)
Bite +15 (+7 BAB, -1 size, +8 Str, +1 Amulet,) 2d6 + 9
2 Claws +16 2d4+9 (+1 feat)
2Rakes ** +16 2d4+9
Special Attacks:
Rake, Pounce, Grab
Feral Mutagen Form
Bite +11 (+7 BAB, size, +4 Str, +1 Amulet,) 2d6 + 5
2 Claws +12 2d4+5 (+1 feat)
Class Abilities:
Alchemy
bomb, 5d6, 11/day
Mutagen
Poison use
Poison immunity
Discovery; feral mutagen
Discovery; infuse mutagen
Other non-relevant stuff
BAB: +7 CMB: +16 CMD: 27
Feats:
1-Medium Armor Proficiency
1-Power Attack
3-Weapon Focus (claws)
5-Heavy Armor Proficiency
7-Iron Will
9-Toughness
Gear:
bombs
19,300 +1 Wild Fullplate (Dragonhide)
16,000 +4 Str belt
5,500 Boots of striding and springing
5,000 Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
5,000 ioun stone (dusty rose, prism)
4,000 +2 Int headband
4,000 cloak of resistance +2
2,000 +1 Ring of Protection
2,000 Handy Haversack
2,500 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Buffs:
Barkskin
Mutagen
Beastshape II
So basically the same DPR as Druid Dan 28/45, but he can't shapeshift nearly as much or for as long. His defenses are a smidgen better. Sadly it does considerably more damage then throwing bombs. Bombs make a poor animal companion. He can still use his extracts if someone else helps him drink them or he uses a form with hands.
Chemical Brother the level 10 elven alchemist
Ability Scores
STR 14
DEX 24 (+ 1 level + 4 belt +4 mutagen)
CON 12
INT 22 (+ 1 level + 4 hat)
WIS 10
CHA 8
HP:
64
Saving Throws:
Fort +8 Ref +14 Will +4
AC:
21 (+5 dex, +4 Studded Leather +1)
Feats of importance:
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus (Bomb)
Discoveries:
Precise Bombs
Sticky Bombs
Fast Bombs
Potent Bombs x2
Bombs at 20 ft range with mutagen quaffed
Attack bonus: +16/+11
Damage: 7d6+7
Items:
+4 dex belt
+4 int hat
Whatever
There are a few feats left but those two are all we need for the purposes of bomb dpr.
My math/optimizing might be off. You could pump this a bit higher by replacing precise bombs with potent bombs, but the former is pretty much necessary if you want to do any bombing with teammates.
When facing an enemy with a touch AC of 14 at 20 ft range with mutagen quaffed (optimal situation, I know) you'll be looking at a DPR of about 55. However, each bomb has the potential to deal an extra 14 damage on the following round due to Sticky Bombs. So, on every round excluding the first this alchemist is looking at a DPR of 78. Not bad.
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Chemical Brother the level 10 elven alchemist
** spoiler omitted **
There are a few feats left but those two are all we need for the purposes of bomb dpr.
My math/optimizing might be off. You could pump this a bit higher by replacing precise bombs with potent bombs, but the former is pretty much necessary if you want to do any bombing with teammates.
When facing an enemy with a touch AC of 14 at 20 ft range with mutagen quaffed (optimal situation, I know) you'll be looking at a DPR of about 55. However, each bomb has the potential to deal an extra 14 damage on the following round due to Sticky Bombs. So, on every round excluding the first this alchemist is looking at a DPR of 78. Not bad.
I would think you'd need at least one discovery that would allow you to deal an alternate type of energy...otherwise you're screwed if it has fire resist or immunity.
I would think you'd need at least one discovery that would allow you to deal an alternate type of energy...otherwise you're screwed if it has fire resist or immunity.Chemical Brother the level 10 elven alchemist
** spoiler omitted **
There are a few feats left but those two are all we need for the purposes of bomb dpr.
My math/optimizing might be off. You could pump this a bit higher by replacing precise bombs with potent bombs, but the former is pretty much necessary if you want to do any bombing with teammates.
When facing an enemy with a touch AC of 14 at 20 ft range with mutagen quaffed (optimal situation, I know) you'll be looking at a DPR of about 55. However, each bomb has the potential to deal an extra 14 damage on the following round due to Sticky Bombs. So, on every round excluding the first this alchemist is looking at a DPR of 78. Not bad.
Well, you can take Acid Bomb instead of Potent Bomb once, it'll deal the 1d6 one round later. The initial damage will be lower, but the DPR the next round oughta be the same, save for a 1 or 2 point dpr drop from sticky bombs.
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|
Well, you can take Acid Bomb instead of Potent Bomb once, it'll deal the 1d6 one round later. The initial damage will be lower, but the DPR the next round oughta be the same, save for a 1 or 2 point dpr drop from sticky bombs.I would think you'd need at least one discovery that would allow you to deal an alternate type of energy...otherwise you're screwed if it has fire resist or immunity.Chemical Brother the level 10 elven alchemist
** spoiler omitted **
There are a few feats left but those two are all we need for the purposes of bomb dpr.
My math/optimizing might be off. You could pump this a bit higher by replacing precise bombs with potent bombs, but the former is pretty much necessary if you want to do any bombing with teammates.
When facing an enemy with a touch AC of 14 at 20 ft range with mutagen quaffed (optimal situation, I know) you'll be looking at a DPR of about 55. However, each bomb has the potential to deal an extra 14 damage on the following round due to Sticky Bombs. So, on every round excluding the first this alchemist is looking at a DPR of 78. Not bad.
Do sticky bombs only apply to the fire bombs? Could you apply it to frost bombs? I don't have the PDF handy and can't recall off the top of my head.
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I am really not good at this, but I'm going to take a shot anyway.
Issac the Inquisitor
Ability Scores:
STR: 23 (+6) (15 base, +2 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 13 (+1)
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 16 (+3) (14 base, +2 hat)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 78 HP (10d8+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +13
AC: 22 (24 against evil) - Touch 11, Flatfooted 21 (+11 +2 full plate, +1 dex)
Attacks: falchion +14/+9, 2d4+9 (18-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Domain: Destruction
Judgement: 4x/day (2 Judgements when used (Destruction/Justice for the DPR build))
Bane: As swift action apply bane property to any one creature type to weapon held.
Solo Tactics + 3 Teamwork Feats
Cunning Initiative: Add wisdom to initiative
Monster Lore, Detect Alignment, Stern Gaze, Track
Spells: - (6 known) / 6 (5 known) / 5 (5 known) / 4 (4 known) / 2 (2 known)
0: Stuff
1: Stuff, True Strike
2: Stuff, Align Weapon
3: Stuff, Keen Edge (used), Magic Vestment (used), Magic Circle vs. Evil (used)
4: Divine Power, Freedom of Movement (used)
BAB: +7 CMB: +13 CMD: 24 (cannot be grappled)
Feats:
falchion (half orc bonus)
toughness
weapon focus (falchion)
power attack
heavy armor prof
improved initiative (Provides final initiative bonus of +9)
Teamwork: Outflank (+4 to-hit when flanking)
Teamwork: Precise Strike (+1d6 damage when flanking)
Teamwork: Swap Places
Skills:
Bunches of skills (high perception)
Gear:
+3 falchion 18000gp
Belt of +4 str 16000gp
full plate (with Magic Vestment making it +2) 1500gp
Hat of +2 wis 4000gp
Handy Haversack 2000gp
Cloak of Resistance +3 9000gp
11500gp left
For a basic attack after using bane as a swift action on the critter in question:
Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 43.94 26.83
Per +1 to hit: 3.15 1.94
Per +1 damage: 1.47 0.90
Extra attack: 26.83
If somehow I were to get a second swift (or use movevement to get a swift, then judgement can be passed and the numbers start rising for three rounds)
Round 1
Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 49.42 29.73
Per +1 to hit: 3.25 2.01
Per +1 damage: 1.60 0.96
Extra attack: 29.73
Round 2
Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 55.16 32.76
Per +1 to hit: 3.35 2.07
Per +1 damage: 1.73 1.03
Extra attack: 32.76
Round 3
Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 61.16 35.93
Per +1 to hit: 3.45 2.14
Per +1 damage: 1.86 1.09
Extra attack: 35.93
And it gets better if there are three rounds of combat with a judgement, and bane, while flanking:
Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 64.91 37.75
Per +1 to hit: 3.50 2.12
Per +1 damage: 1.99 1.16
Extra attack: 37.75
Not bad for a second-string fighter.
Here is the first two pages of the thread. It's unlocked, feel free to add any or make corrections to what I have. The actual excel files I am using have links to the posts the builds are in but it seems converting to the google docs format lost that functionality.
I had been looking for something to use excel 2010 on. I might make it more complicated later but without having a standard format for things and with the constant changes to builds it can get hard to keep track of.
Here's a monk build that produces exceptional damage output and is still fairly well rounded and has plenty of skills to boot. The key tech used is prestige classing into duelist levels; unfortunately that can only be done from level 9 onwards - so the effect isn't great. To show the progression I've included DPR at level 13 assuming a target AC of 26 as well as no other modifications except 3 duelist levels (no extra items or feats), the increase in DPR is substantial.
A notable feature for long-term defense: the character can add Dex, Int and Wis to AC - allowing broad-range increase to AC at high levels.
Makes use of 1 feat from Campaign Setting (Hamatulatsu) - ignores the crit-modification of the feat, only used to gain piercing unarmed strikes.
I've produced two variants, the fully offense one with almost no money spent on increasing defenses (still has okay AC and saves), and a more balanced, playable version with better AC and saves.
- combat expertise for -3 to attack +3 to AC
- ki-point for +4 dodge bonus to AC
- wand of mage armor for an additional +2 armor bonus
- ability to parry enemy attacks
BAB: +8 CMB: +16 CMD: 32
Attacks: +3 unarmed strikes +18/+18/+13/+13 2d6+18 dmg (19-20/x2)
- Spring Attack
- Expected Damage: 7 dice + 6 strength + 3 fang + 7 amulet + 2 duelist = 25
Class Abilities:
- Evasion
- Ki-points for bonus attack on full-round attacks, +4 dodge bonus, +20 movement speed
- Still Ming, +2 vs enchantment
- Immunity to Disease
- Parry, ability to sacrifice attacks to gain chance to block attack against self or adjacent ally
- Improved Reaction, +2 initiative
- Fast Movement, +20ft movement speed
- Stunning Fist, 8x a day DC 16
- Slowfall 40ft
- Wholeness of Body
- High Jump
Feats:
- Toughness (1)
- Weapon Finesse (1)
- Dodge (monk1)
- Hamatulatsu (monk2)
- Weapon Focus (unarmed) (3)
- Combat Expertise (5)
- Mobility (6)
- Spring Attack (7)
- Improved Critical (9)
Skills:
7 skill points per level (not including favored class bonus)Gear and permanent effects:
- Ring of Protection +1
- Bracers of Armor +2
- Belt of Giant Strength +4
- Amulet of Mighty Fists (Shocking and Frost)
- Monk's Robe
- Permanent Greater Magic Fang +3
Damage Output
- Full Round DPR: 68.75
- - +1 attack: +5.5
- - +1 damage: +2.75
- - extra attack: +20.625
- Full Round DPR with ki-point: 89.375
- - +1 attack: +5.5
- - +1 damage: +2.75
- - extra attack: +20.625
- Spring Attack: 17.875
- - +1 attack: +2.75
- - +1 damage: +2.145
At level 13 (assuming 26 AC and 3 extra duelist levels, no other item/feat considerations)
- Full Round DPR: 92.4
- - +1 attack: +7.7
- - +1 damage: +3.3
- - extra attack: +24.64
- Full Round DPR with ki-point: 117.04
- - +1 attack: +9.24
- - +1 damage: +4.18
- - extra attack: +24.64
- Spring Attack: 21.56
- - +1 attack: +1.54
- - +1 damage: +0.77
Ability Scores
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 10 (0)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 13 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 73
Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +8 Will: +9 (+2 vs enchantment)
AC: 22 - Touch: 20 - Flatfooted: 20 (10 + 1 dex + 2 wis + 2 int + 3 monk + 1 deflect + 1 dodge + 2 armor)
- combat expertise for -3 to attack +3 to AC
- ki-point for +4 dodge bonus to AC
- optionally wand of mage armor for an additional +1 armor bonus
- ability to parry enemy attacks
BAB: +8 CMB: +16 CMD: 32
Attacks: +3 unarmed strikes +18/+18/+13/+13 2d6+18 dmg (19-20/x2)
- Spring Attack
- Expected Damage: 7 dice + 6 strength + 3 fang + 3.5 amulet + 2 duelist = 21.5
Class Abilities:
- Evasion
- Ki-points for bonus attack on full-round attacks, +4 dodge bonus, +20 movement speed
- Still Ming, +2 vs enchantment
- Immunity to Disease
- Parry, ability to sacrifice attacks to gain chance to block attack against self or adjacent ally
- Improved Reaction, +2 initiative
- Fast Movement, +20ft movement speed
- Stunning Fist, 8x a day DC 16
- Slowfall 40ft
- Wholeness of Body
- High Jump
Feats:
- Toughness (1)
- Weapon Finesse (1)
- Dodge (monk1)
- Hamatulatsu (monk2)
- Weapon Focus (unarmed) (3)
- Combat Expertise (5)
- Mobility (6)
- Spring Attack (7)
- Improved Critical (9)
Skills:
7 skill points per level (not including favored class bonus)Gear and permanent effects:
- Ring of Protection +1
- Belt of Giant Strength +4
- Amulet of Mighty Fists (Shocking)
- Monk's Robe
- Permanent Greater Magic Fang +3
- Cloak of Resistance +1
- Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (50% surcharge, set on amulet of mighty fist)
- Headband of Wisdom +2
- Bracers of Armor +3
- 2000gp to spare
Damage Output
- Full Round DPR: 59.125
- - +1 attack: +4.73
- - +1 damage: +2.75
- - extra attack: +17.7375
- Full Round DPR with ki-point: 76.8625
- - +1 attack: +5.9125
- - +1 damage: +3.575
- - extra attack: +17.7375
- Spring Attack: 15.375
- - +1 attack: +2.3625
- - +1 damage: +0.7125
At level 13 (assuming 26 AC and 3 extra duelist levels, no other item/feat considerations)
- Full Round DPR: 80.85
- - +1 attack: +6.7375
- - +1 damage: +3.3
- - extra attack: +21.56
- Full Round DPR with ki-point: 102.41
- - +1 attack: +8.085
- - +1 damage: +4.18
- - extra attack: +21.56
- Spring Attack: 18.865
- - +1 attack: +1.3475
- - +1 damage: +0.77
Ability Scores
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 10 (0)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 16 (+2) (13 base, +1 level, +2 headband)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 73
Saving Throws
Fort: +8 Ref: +9 Will: +10 (+2 vs enchantment)
AC: 25 - Touch: 21 - Flatfooted: 23 (10 + 1 dex + 3 wis + 2 int + 3 monk + 1 deflect + 1 dodge + 3 armor + 1 natural)
Using Permanent Greater Magic Fang is pretty much cheating (Nobody in the thread is using permanent greater magic weapon instead of buying a weapon).
As James pointed out, it's perfectly legal. I did only use a CL 12 version of the spell on purpose though - if your DM allows a CL 20 druid to cast the spell on you, so much more the better.
However, assuming your GM doesn't allow it at all - or that it gets dispelled, this is the DPR at level 10 with ki-point: 60.5. Still good. And with increasing duelist levels you can quickly get a great deal of damage going.
In all stages of the build Power Attack can be used to increase the DPR very slightly, something like 1ish to 2ish.
Using Permanent Greater Magic Fang is pretty much cheating (Nobody in the thread is using permanent greater magic weapon instead of buying a weapon).As James pointed out, it's perfectly legal. I did only use a CL 12 version of the spell on purpose though - if your DM allows a CL 20 druid to cast the spell on you, so much more the better.
However, assuming your GM doesn't allow it at all - or that it gets dispelled, this is the DPR at level 10 with ki-point: 60.5. Still good. And with increasing duelist levels you can quickly get a great deal of damage going.
In all stages of the build Power Attack can be used to increase the DPR very slightly, something like 1ish to 2ish.
No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.
You may meet the duration requirements, but unless I am mistaken a monk cannot apply greater magic fang on themselves without using a limited use item like a scroll or wand, so it is out.
There was a lengthy discussion on this in the thread. MiB objected to my cleric builds using greater magic weapon on my own weapon. In the end he drew a line that only self buffs can be used. Since a fighter may be able to get the party wizard to cast GMW on his weapons. A monk could get GMF cast on him by the party druid. These things fall into the party synergy category and should be avoided for strict baseline comparisons. I don't agree, but there it is.
Permenant greater magic fang is pretty far over that line because...
A. It involves spells you cannot cast yourself.
B. No sane player would do it. One dispel magic and you just flushed a lot of gold down the toilet.
The whole point is to get a baseline on each build without using gimmicks. Using permenant spell to get around the spell buffing limits is definately a gimmick.
A. It involves spells you cannot cast yourself.
Doesn't matter, since its bought in town.
The whole point is to get a baseline on each build without using gimmicks. Using permenant spell to get around the spell buffing limits is definately a gimmick.
..
B. No sane player would do it. One dispel magic and you just flushed a lot of gold down the toilet.
Firstly this assumes that you're facing an enemy caster with Dispel Magic (or similar) prepared, secondly there is no in-character reason for a spellcaster to cast Dispel Magic targeting the monks unarmed attacks (no glowy hands or anything). Even if he uses Detect Magic, he'll only see lots of magic on the monk (items and permanent enchantment). Finally the dispel actually has to succeed for it to matter.
Then there are protective measures that can be taken to ensure that dispels against the monk are in turn dispelled.
However, the fact of the matter is that dispelling a monk's permanent magic fang should be rarer than a fighter's falchion getting sundered. Sundering is easier and more generally applicable than an unusual choice of dispel.
The whole point is to get a baseline on each build without using gimmicks. Using permenant spell to get around the spell buffing limits is definately a gimmick.Firstly this assumes that you're facing an enemy caster with Dispel Magic (or similar) prepared, secondly there is no in-character reason for a spellcaster to cast Dispel Magic targeting the monks unarmed attacks (no glowy hands or anything). Even if he uses Detect Magic, he'll only see lots of magic on the monk (items and permanent enchantment).
Then there are protective measures that can be taken to ensure that dispels against the monk are in turn dispelled.
However, the fact of the matter is that dispelling a monk's permanent magic fang should be rarer than a fighter's falchion getting sundered. Sundering is easier and more generally applicable than an unusual choice of dispel.
You are also assuming that GMF is the only buff that the monk will ever have on them. Bad guy sees the monk wizard friend cast haste, now the bad guy has a reason to dispel the monk. Maybe he has his henchmen do it several times just to be sure. Either way you slice it, I rarely if ever see players use permanent spells, because of the risk of dispelling. Do you think a greater dispel magic trap really cares what it targets?
So, Dispel magic....
or an AoE greater dispel magic
or a mage's disjunction
or a null magic area(They exist in several campaign worlds)
Take your pick.
AND
It is not in the rules. Monks cannot cast greater magic fang or permenancy. The rules state only buffs you can cast on yourself.
The whole point is to get a baseline on each build without using gimmicks. Using permenant spell to get around the spell buffing limits is definately a gimmick.Firstly this assumes that you're facing an enemy caster with Dispel Magic (or similar) prepared, secondly there is no in-character reason for a spellcaster to cast Dispel Magic targeting the monks unarmed attacks (no glowy hands or anything). Even if he uses Detect Magic, he'll only see lots of magic on the monk (items and permanent enchantment).
Then there are protective measures that can be taken to ensure that dispels against the monk are in turn dispelled.
However, the fact of the matter is that dispelling a monk's permanent magic fang should be rarer than a fighter's falchion getting sundered. Sundering is easier and more generally applicable than an unusual choice of dispel.
You are also assuming that GMF is the only buff that the monk will ever have on them. Bad guy sees the monk wizard friend cast haste, now the bad guy has a reason to dispel the monk. Maybe he has his henchmen do it several times just to be sure. Either way you slice it, I rarely if ever see players use permanent spells, because of the risk of dispelling. Do you think a greater dispel magic trap really cares what it targets?
So, Dispel magic....
or an AoE greater dispel magic
or a mage's disjunction
or a null magic area(They exist in several campaign worlds)
Take your pick.
AND
It is against the rules. From the rules in the first post.
No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.
Monks cannot cast greater magic fang or permenancy. The rules state only buffs you can cast on yourself are allowed.
Technically this whole thread is pointless because it assumes a 1 round fight which any halfway experienced role-player knows doesn't happen often. though I completely understand the "baseline damage" argument there exist so many multitude of options with equipment/armor special abilities that it would be impossible to pin down an average.
It probably would have been better served to simply show all the classes average DPR without the benefit of buffs or magic weapons. A lvl 10 fighter vs a lvl 10 dual wielding rogue assuming masterwork equipment for each.
Then variance can be determined in the purest sense.
Still achieves a DPR of 60.5 without the fang. Will see if I can improve on that.
However, as a last resort (from Pathfinder 29 - Council of Thieves 5 - Mother of Flies, page 68):
What would it cost to get a "Spellcasting Contract" from an Asmodean cleric? That would grant the monk 1 level 3 spell each day (in this case GMW).
Technically this whole thread is pointless because it assumes a 1 round fight which any halfway experienced role-player knows doesn't happen often. though I completely understand the "baseline damage" argument there exist so many multitude of options with equipment/armor special abilities that it would be impossible to pin down an average.
It probably would have been better served to simply show all the classes average DPR without the benefit of buffs or magic weapons. A lvl 10 fighter vs a lvl 10 dual wielding rogue assuming masterwork equipment for each.
Then variance can be determined in the purest sense.
The problem there is that a certain amount of magic equipment is assumed. If the rogue loses the +2 to hit for having a magic weapon, it hurts them a lot more than a fighter. A dual wield rogue is hitting less than 50% of the time. Losing a +2 to hit is more than a 20% loss in DPS for them. Meanwhile a two hand fighter is hitting over 70% of the time, and -2 to hit is less than 14% loss in damage.
It would have been better to just state what weapons are available.
I started a thread to try and make a more realistic assessment of average DPR over the course of a 4 round fight, but was very time consuming and thus that thread is currently in the dead pile.
Still achieves a DPR of 60.5 without the fang. Will see if I can improve on that.
However, as a last resort (from Pathfinder 29 - Council of Thieves 5 - Mother of Flies, page 68):
What would it cost to get a "Spellcasting Contract" from an Asmodean cleric? That would grant the monk 1 level 3 spell each day (in this case GMW).
I would say if it requires someone else to cast a spell for you then it is out by the letter of the rules. Just take an amulet of mighty fists +1 or +2 and move on.
Since there are some objections to permanent fangs, here's an alternative monk-duelist that makes due without these fangy-gimmicks. Instead this build uses stunning-fist and calculates the chance to land a stun and the ramifications to the DPR:
I think it is a pretty decent all-round package.
- combat expertise for -3 to attack +3 to AC
- ki-point for +4 dodge bonus to AC
- wand of mage armor for an additional +1 armor bonus
BAB: +8 CMB: +16 CMD: 36
Attacks: unarmed strikes +15/+15/+10/+10 2d6+15 dmg (19-20/x2)
- Spring Attack
- Expected Damage: 7 dice + 6 strength + 7 amulet + 2 duelist = 22
- Stun DC 19, versus average save of 11 at CR 10
- Average Dex bonus to enemy AC (not counting buffs) is 2
Class Abilities:
- Evasion
- Ki-points for bonus attack on full-round attacks, +4 dodge bonus, +20 movement speed
- Still Ming, +2 vs enchantment
- Immunity to Disease
- Parry, ability to sacrifice attacks to gain chance to block attack against self or adjacent ally
- Improved Reaction, +2 initiative
- Fast Movement, +20ft movement speed
- Stunning Fist, 8x a day DC 16
- Slowfall 40ft
- Wholeness of Body
- High Jump
Feats:
- Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (1)
- Weapon Finesse (1)
- Dodge (monk1)
- Hamatulatsu (monk2)
- Weapon Focus (unarmed) (3)
- Combat Expertise (5)
- Mobility (monk6)
- Spring Attack (7)
- Improved Critical (9)
Skills:
7 skill points per level (not including favored class bonus)Gear and permanent effects:
- Headband of Wisdom +2
- Belt of Giant Strength +4
- Amulet of Mighty Fists (Shocking and Frost)
- Monk's Robe
- Armor Bracers +3
- Cloak of Resistance +1
Damage Output
Note, Stunning Fist attempt on each first attack (35% chance of landing the stun on a successful hit, means 0.6 * 0.35 => 21% chance of stunning opponent on first attack). Average enemy AC bonus from Dex is 2, so when stunned they lose 4 AC
- Full Round DPR: 49.0292
- - +1 attack: +5.0941
- - +1 damage: +2.2286
- - extra attack: +15.5364
- Full Round DPR with ki-point: 64.5656
- - +1 attack: +6.3888
- - +1 damage: +2.9348
- - extra attack: +15.5364
Ability Scores
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 10 (0)
INT: 14 (+2)
WIS: 16 (+3) (13 base, +1 level, +2 headband)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 63
Saving Throws
Fort: +8 Ref: +9 Will: +11 (+2 vs enchantment)
AC: 23 - Touch: 20 - Flatfooted: 20 (10 + 1 dex + 3 wis + 2 int + 3 monk + 1 dodge + 3 bracers)
I would say if it requires someone else to cast a spell for you then it is out by the letter of the rules. Just take an amulet of mighty fists +1 or +2 and move on.Still achieves a DPR of 60.5 without the fang. Will see if I can improve on that.
However, as a last resort (from Pathfinder 29 - Council of Thieves 5 - Mother of Flies, page 68):
What would it cost to get a "Spellcasting Contract" from an Asmodean cleric? That would grant the monk 1 level 3 spell each day (in this case GMW).
I'll ignore the spell contract for the sake of keeping things simple and more core - but what it actually does, is grant *the monk* the ability to cast Greater Magic Weapon once a day. It's *not* someone else casting it on the monk each day. It's kind of similar to "Imbue With Spell-like Ability" (Core, page 299) but allows any spell of an Asmodean Cleric to be granted to a recipient each day.
There are (with good reason) no general buying rules for these contracts; but in principle if a character is not avert to making binding contracts of some sort with the Church of Asmodeus, then there is no problem in getting it.
I would say if it requires someone else to cast a spell for you then it is out by the letter of the rules. Just take an amulet of mighty fists +1 or +2 and move on.
But the monk can't MAKE an amulet of mighty fists so that should be out just as much.
The point of the thread was not a stupid, arbitrary competition, but rather what a class could do without reliance upon other Party members buffing them either in or out of combat.
Getting a permanent enlarge spell or the like is a perfectly valid form of spending one's cash towards this.
-James
Thanks :) - though it doesn't really matter; the stats for both types of builds are up, and people can chose which one is applicable to their campaign.
(Though the Fanged version of Synthia has not gotten Stunning Fist consideration, so you could add 5 or so to the DPR.)
Str 22 (15 +2 Racial +4 Item +1 lvl) (26 Raging)
Dex 17 (14 +1 lvl +2 Item)
Con 13 (17 Raging)
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
HP 73 (93 Raging)
AC 24 (22 Raging)
Saves: 8/11/7 (10/11/9 raging)
Movement 40
Other Abilities: Rage (14 rounds), Animal Fury, Evasion, Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2, Bleeding Attack, 4d6 sneak, 1 unassigned rogue tallent
Feats 1. Extra Rage, 3. Iron Will, Rogue Tallent Weapon Focus (short sword) 5. TWF 7. Double Slice 9 ITWF 10 Rogue Tallent Keen Weapon
Equipment:
1000 spare gp
2 +2 shortswords
Mithral Breastplate +3
Dex +2 Ion Stone
Str +4 belt
RoP +1
Cloak of Resistance +2
ANA +1
Attacks:
Short Sword X2: 17-20 crit: 17/12 (8+2 magic +1 WF +6 str +2 rage str -2 TWF) Damage: 13.5 +14 sneak (3.5 + 6 str +2 rage str +2 magic)
Bite 20 crit: 9 (8 +6 str +2 rage str -5 secondary) Damage: 6.5 + 14 sneak(2.5 +3 str +1 rage str)
Notes: Lvl 10 is an isolated boost, because it does not miss out on the lvl 9 loss of a BAB. This gives it enough to get Improved Critical a level early with a rogue tallent.
He cannot qualify for ITWF without the Ion Stone
Barbarian 1st lvl for HP.
Power Attack is a hinderence at this AC.
Raging, sneak attack, flanking: 91.95 +4 bleed
+ 1 hit = 7.08
+1 damage = 3.76
Raging, sneak attack: 77.79 +4 bleed
+1 hit = 11.08
+1 damage = 3.18
Sneak Attack 58.75 +4 bleed
Raging: 39.99
Base: 27.95
** spoiler omitted **
Notes: Lvl 10 is an isolated boost, because it does not miss out on the lvl 9 loss of a BAB. This gives it enough to get Improved Critical a level early with a rogue tallent.
He cannot qualify for ITWF without the Ion Stone
Barbarian 1st lvl for HP.
Power Attack is a hinderence at this AC.Raging, sneak attack, flanking: 91.95 +4 bleed
+ 1 hit = 7.08
+1 damage = 3.76
Raging, sneak attack: 77.79 +4 bleed
+1 hit = 11.08
+1 damage = 3.18
Sneak Attack 58.75 +4 bleed
Raging: 39.99
Base: 27.95
I just realized I could eak out more damage with an orc double ax. Or I could go human and take exotic weapon prof in the gnome hooked hammer and get even a little more, and get a trip weapon.
Orc double:
Raging, sneak attack, flanking: 95.19 +4 bleed
Raging, sneak attack: 80.55 +4 bleed
Sneak Attack 61.03 +4 bleed
Raging: 42.75
Base: 30.23
Gnome hook:
Raging, sneak attack, flanking: 95.40 +4 bleed
Raging, sneak attack: 80.72 +4 bleed
Sneak Attack 60.99 +4 bleed
Raging: 42.92
Base: 30.19
Edit: and I read earlier in the thread that someone should make a tengu for the extra bite attack. Trying it out, I lose DPR because of the str loss. The -1 to hit is huge, and the doubleweapon tengu doesn't quite match the shortsword wielding variant.
This is a high damage monk build. Features:
- okay armor and saves
- low skill points
- high damage
- simple concept
- very difficult math
The idea is simple: use Stunning Fist and Shatter Defenses to illicit additional attacks from Medusa's Wrath.
The computation of the impact of stunning fist is relatively benign. It assumes an average save of 11 for CR 10 creatures, and that the creatures on average have a Dexterity modifier of 2. The maths is quite tractable.
The computation of the Shatter Defenses is difficult. Firstly, it relies on Hamatulatsu (Campaign Setting) to get immediate-action demoralization attempts when confirming crits against foes. In conjunction with Shatter Defenses that means that the target now becomes flat-footed for the attacks of the monk; allowing Medusa's Wrath strikes to apply to it. The Medusa's Wrath strikes apply in "this" round already, rather than the next, as they always apply on full round attacks - but only flat/dazed/stunned/paralyzed/staggered/unconcious foes are legal targets.
As the build relies on Intimidate, the ranks for that skill are maxed out and the character additionally makes use of Skill Focus (intimidate) and Intimidating Prowess to get the total to +24; the math assumes this is enough to always demoralize a foe (target intimidate DC 10 + HitDie + Wisdom mod => approximately 22).
Now that the concept is described, I have to admit that I didn't create a really elaborate formula to approximate the result - instead I wrote a small program that simulates the attacks many millions of times and gives results afterwards. Unfortunately the simulation does not incorporate the effects of the shaken condition for the purposes of determining whether a stun lands, though in principle target saves are reduced by -2 thereby increasing the odds of landing a stunning fist noticeably. If you want you can mentally add +1 to the total DPR of the build :)
The results also show the progression of the build with increasing crit-range from Hamatulatsu, but the best range (of 16-20) only has a 5% chance of occuring (in the sense that all full-round attacks prior to this round did *not* score a critical hit).
- ki-point for +4 dodge bonus to AC
BAB: +8 CMB: +17 CMD: 34
Attacks: unarmed strikes +16/+16/+11/+11 2d6+14 dmg (19-20/x2)
- Expected Damage: 7 dice + 7 strength + 7 amulet = 21
- Stun DC 21, versus average save of 11 at CR 10
- Average Dex bonus to enemy AC (not counting buffs) is 2
Class Abilities:
- Improved Evasion
- Ki-points for bonus attack on full-round attacks, +4 dodge bonus, +20 movement speed
- Still Ming, +2 vs enchantment
- Immunity to Disease
- Fast Movement, +30ft movement speed
- Stunning Fist, 10x a day DC 21
- Slowfall 50ft
- Wholeness of Body
- High Jump
- Ki allows bypass of lawful and magic DR
Feats:
- Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (human)
- Skill Focus (Intimidate) (1)
- Dodge (monk1)
- Hamatulatsu (monk2)
- Weapon Focus (unarmed) (3)
- Dazzling Display (5)
- Gorgon's Fist (monk6)
- Intimidating Prowess (7)
- Shatter Defenses (9)
- Medusa's Wrath
Skills:
3 skill points per level (not including favored class bonus)
- Intimidate: +24 (10 ranks, 7 strength, -2 charisma, 3 class skill, 6 skill focus)
Gear and permanent effects:
- Headband of Wisdom +2
- Belt of Giant Strength +4
- Amulet of Mighty Fists (Shocking and Frost)
- Monk's Robe
- Armor Bracers +2
- Cloak of Resistance +1
- Ring of Protection +1
Damage Output
Note, Stunning Fist attempt on each first attack (45% chance of landing the stun on a successful hit, means 0.65 * 0.45 => 29.25% chance of stunning opponent on first attack). Average enemy AC bonus from Dex is 2, so when stunned they lose 4 AC
- Full Round DPR with ki-point with flanking: 95.86
- - +1 attack: +7.85
- - +1 damage: +3.81
- - extra attack: +16.55
- Full Round DPR with ki-point: 80.07
- - +1 attack: +7.85
- - +1 damage: +3.81
- - extra attack: +16.55
- Full Round DPR: 63.58
- - +1 attack: +6.57
- - +1 damage: +3.02
- - extra attack: +16.49
- Hamatulatsu crit progression
- - chance of crit range: 19-20 - 75.2% - DPR: 86.20
- - chance of crit range: 18-20 - 42.0% - DPR: 91.55
- - chance of crit range: 17-20 - 17.1% - DPR: 96.23
- - chance of crit range: 16-20 - 5.0% - DPR: 100.35
Ability Scores
STR: 24 (+6) (16 base, +2 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 13 (+1)
CON: 10 (0)
INT: 7 (-2)
WIS: 18 (+4) (16 base, +2 headband)
CHA: 7 (-2)
HP: 63
Saving Throws
Fort: +8 Ref: +9 Will: +12 (+2 vs enchantment)
AC: 22 - Touch: 20 - Flatfooted: 20 (10 + 1 dex + 4 wis + 3 monk + 1 dodge + 2 bracers + 1 deflect)
Is there a 2-handed weapon + Armor Spikes combo here? (would be better at 11th level, but a 10th will do.
EDIT: Found it, sorry.
Anyhow, what is the "best" build? And wouldn't things DRASTICALY change with 1 more level?
Is there a 2-handed weapon + Armor Spikes combo here? (would be better at 11th level, but a 10th will do.
EDIT: Found it, sorry.
Anyhow, what is the "best" build? And wouldn't things DRASTICALY change with 1 more level?
Define "best"
Define "best"Is there a 2-handed weapon + Armor Spikes combo here? (would be better at 11th level, but a 10th will do.
EDIT: Found it, sorry.
Anyhow, what is the "best" build? And wouldn't things DRASTICALY change with 1 more level?
Well, since this is about DPR, I would say the one that deals more damage per round. Combat oriented builds of course.
Well, since this is about DPR, I would say the one that deals more damage per round. Combat oriented builds of course.Define "best"Is there a 2-handed weapon + Armor Spikes combo here? (would be better at 11th level, but a 10th will do.
EDIT: Found it, sorry.
Anyhow, what is the "best" build? And wouldn't things DRASTICALY change with 1 more level?
Does the most damage under the conditions specified in this thread? Does more damage when there is a Bard in the group? Does more damage from levels 1 - 20, or does more damage at level 10? Does charging count? Sneak attack? Rage? Boots of Speed?
Based on what I've seen so far on this thread, your best damage dealers at level 10 are Archery based warriors, Wildshaped Druids, or a nastily made Summoner's Eidolon. However, the number of factors that could completely change these numbers are beyond reckoning.
Well, since this is about DPR, I would say the one that deals more damage per round. Combat oriented builds of course.Define "best"Is there a 2-handed weapon + Armor Spikes combo here? (would be better at 11th level, but a 10th will do.
EDIT: Found it, sorry.
Anyhow, what is the "best" build? And wouldn't things DRASTICALY change with 1 more level?
Does the most damage under the conditions specified in this thread? Does more damage when there is a Bard in the group? Does more damage from levels 1 - 20, or does more damage at level 10? Does charging count? Sneak attack? Rage? Boots of Speed?
Based on what I've seen so far on this thread, your best damage dealers at level 10 are Archery based warriors, Wildshaped Druids, or a nastily made Summoner's Eidolon. However, the number of factors that could completely change these numbers are beyond reckoning.
That's completelly true. Well, I dare say that considering "build only" the one that deals more damage would be the armor spiked+two-handed, specially after 11th level, am I correct in this assumption? Is it WAY more damage than other "fighter" builds?
That's completelly true. Well, I dare say that considering "build only" the one that deals more damage would be the armor spiked+two-handed, specially after 11th level, am I correct in this assumption? Is it WAY more damage than other "fighter" builds?Well, since this is about DPR, I would say the one that deals more damage per round. Combat oriented builds of course.Define "best"Is there a 2-handed weapon + Armor Spikes combo here? (would be better at 11th level, but a 10th will do.
EDIT: Found it, sorry.
Anyhow, what is the "best" build? And wouldn't things DRASTICALY change with 1 more level?
Does the most damage under the conditions specified in this thread? Does more damage when there is a Bard in the group? Does more damage from levels 1 - 20, or does more damage at level 10? Does charging count? Sneak attack? Rage? Boots of Speed?
Based on what I've seen so far on this thread, your best damage dealers at level 10 are Archery based warriors, Wildshaped Druids, or a nastily made Summoner's Eidolon. However, the number of factors that could completely change these numbers are beyond reckoning.
I would not be convinced of that. The Armor spikes just don't deliver that much damage reliably, and the -2 you are taking to hit with your primary weapon as well as the feat expenditure - I don't think it's going to pay off in spades.
That's of course speaking about when making full attacks. The TWF doesn't help at all when full attacking isn't an option.
For pure damage, I'm of the opinion personally that Archer or Druid is going to give you the most damage reliably (because the archer is more likely to be able to deliver full attacks, and the Druid has pounce)
That's completelly true. Well, I dare say that considering "build only" the one that deals more damage would be the armor spiked+two-handed, specially after 11th level, am I correct in this assumption? Is it WAY more damage than other "fighter" builds?
James Jacobs has already weighed in that he thinks 2WF and 2-Handed are 'mutually exclusive modes' enough so that the main-hand of a double weapon cannot benefit from 2-handed damage bonus (even though it is wielded in 2-hands), so I don't think it's going to fly that you can get a 2-handed damage bonus while 2WF'ing just because you're using an abstract 'off-hand' to wield the armor spikes.
AFAIK, the best melee "fighter type" (core/non-magical) build according to the rules of the thread was the Barb1/Fighter9 "Curvy Camilla" using an Elven Curveblade (I think the rules may have been relaxed slightly since that was written...?):
DPR: 84.68 (Rage)/ 73.87 (without) Standard Attack (Vital Strike): 50.3 (Rage)/ 46.6 (without) Extra Attack(rage): 45.08 dmg
MiB's Paladin Archer build resulted in:
Smiting Team Evil: ~106.50 DPR - +1 to hit is ~8.56 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 30.09 more
Smiting a jerk: ~70.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.66 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 19.89 more
Not smiting at all: ~41.70 DPR - +1 to hit is ~4.50 more, +1 damage is 2.57 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 12.09 more
MiB's Fighter Archer resulted in:
Her average damage per round is 68.25. A +1 to hit is worth ~4.49 DPR, a +1 to damage is worth 3.42 DPR, and an additional attack is worth 18.72 DPR. These numbers do not include Point Blank Shot.
The basic deal is that regardless of full attack vs. full attack comparisons, an archer is going to be able to full attack more often than melee (how much more often? who knows) On the other hand, melee-ists can get alot out of a standard attack with Cleave/ Great Cleave (as seen by Curvy Camilla's extra attack dmg) and melee is the only way to get AoO's.
James Jacobs has already weighed in that he thinks 2WF and 2-Handed are 'mutually exclusive modes' enough so that the main-hand of a double weapon cannot benefit from 2-handed damage bonus (even though it is wielded in 2-hands), so I don't think it's going to fly that you can get a 2-handed damage bonus while 2WF'ing just because you're using an abstract 'off-hand' to wield the armor spikes.
PLEASE, please, please, please tell me where he said that. Cause I've trying to convince A LOT of people that it doesn't work and it's OP.(and ridiculous, but that's a diferent matter)
PLEASE, please, please, please tell me where he said that. Cause I've trying to convince A LOT of people that it doesn't work and it's OP.(and ridiculous, but that's a diferent matter)
:-) I don't know where the exact thread is now, but it was a subject originally started re: people hypothesizing about 'switching grips' mid-full attack or something.
I brought up that per RAW the main-hand of a double weapon should get the 2-hand dmg bonus and it is debatable whether the off-hand should also get it (on top of off-hand penalty, net = 3/4 STR). Nobody ever really gave a RAW argument against it (basically double weapons say you suffer "the penalties" as if using a 1-handed and Light weapon in each hand: there are no STR bonus dmg "penalties" for using a weapon 1-handed, and you are definitely still wielding the double weapon in 2 hands: thus, you qualify for the STR bonus). But the (actually absent from RAW) concept of mutually exclusive 'combat modes' (2WF/1H/2H) seems to be a popularly accepted one, is why I mentioned that.Anyhow, though I think the RAW does allow that STR bonus for double weapons' main hand (at least), I agree with the 'dedication of abstract 'off-hand' to ATTACK with 2-Handed weapon' concept raised there, though the Armor Spikes do seem valid to also threaten adjacent squares for AoO's and the like (or vice-versa, to attack with Armor Spikes and threaten larger area with 2-Hand Reach weapon), though in that case it's not much different than Improved Unarmed except it's bonus damage with Grapples. A cool magic item popped up in a Slumbering Tsar Play-by-Post I'm in: Leather Armor with at-will POISON spikes called "Pufferfish Armor", which is cool without trying to cheese the rules. :-)
James Jacobs has already weighed in that he thinks 2WF and 2-Handed are 'mutually exclusive modes' enough so that the main-hand of a double weapon cannot benefit from 2-handed damage bonus (even though it is wielded in 2-hands), so I don't think it's going to fly that you can get a 2-handed damage bonus while 2WF'ing just because you're using an abstract 'off-hand' to wield the armor spikes.PLEASE, please, please, please tell me where he said that. Cause I've trying to convince A LOT of people that it doesn't work and it's OP.(and ridiculous, but that's a diferent matter)
Careful Xum.
James Jacobs didn't overrule the ability to wield a two handed weapon and use armor spikes. He said that he (and not necessarily the Pathfinder game) felt that the wielder couldn't get the two handed damage bonus while two weapon fighting.
Even if I could remember where that thread was, it won't help you in any way.
EDIT:: This was likely the post/thread.
You know something comes to mind on the subject. Were there rulings about bonuses for two handed weapons in one hand like lances and using the two handed double weapons in one hand. Depending on what was ruled the combination could allow two handed damage bonus in two weapon fighting while still using a weapon in both hands unlike greatsword and armor spikes.
How? The 2-Handed damage is dependent on wielding a weapon in two-hands (even if it just requires 1-Hand to wield), not being CLASSED as a 2-Handed weapon. Anyhow, let's not de-rail this thread completely people, even if it seems like it's run it's course. I believe Xum just mentioned 2WF Armor Spikes+2Handed Weapon in the course of wondering what "the best" build is. As Treantmonk pointed out, for Full Attack DPS purposes, *even if it was allowed* it would likely be worse damage because you have to split your stat focus (STR/DEX) to qualify for 2WF (if using point-buy, and even if not it's very Feat heavy).
Well so as to not derail the thread I shall not continue to argue about possibilities, as per your comment.You know something comes to mind on the subject. Were there rulings about bonuses for two handed weapons in one hand like lances and using the two handed double weapons in one hand. Depending on what was ruled the combination could allow two handed damage bonus in two weapon fighting while still using a weapon in both hands unlike greatsword and armor spikes.How? The 2-Handed damage is dependent on wielding a weapon in two-hands (even if it just requires 1-Hand to wield), not being CLASSED as a 2-Handed weapon. Anyhow, let's not de-rail this thread completely people, even if it seems like it's run it's course. I believe Xum just mentioned 2WF Armor Spikes+2Handed Weapon in the course of wondering what "the best" build is. As Treantmonk pointed out, for Full Attack DPS purposes, *even if it was allowed* it would likely be worse damage because you have to split your stat focus (STR/DEX) to qualify for 2WF (if using point-buy, and even if not it's very Feat heavy).
You can do so in the Armor Spikes + 2 Handed weapon thread.