There is a spread sheet that does the math for you. spreadsheet
I originally assumed that using the spreadsheet wouldn't be easy because of the eidolon's mix of manufactured and natural attacks.
There are things it does not account for automatically, but I have never been able to find something I could not plug in one way or another. For haste as an example, I just add the single attack damage to the full attack damage while making sure the vital strike feats or many shot is not being used.
on the multiweapon fighting penalties, my understanding was this. The penalies only apply to the weapon attacks. I thought it worked this way because the two weapon fighting tables in the combat section only list the penalties for your attacks with your main hand and your off hand. Now the universal monster rules just says that when combining weapon attacks and natural attacks, you just treat all natural attacks as secondary.
So basically the weapon attacks would be at -2 and the natural weapons would be at -2 as well. And then that one iterative attack would be at -7 below the total bonus.
SRD wrote:
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
I have always taken the penalty to regular attacks as meaning that all other attacks take the penalty, but the wording isn't as clear as it could be, so you could be right.
This is not possible. To take Pounce you must be a quadruped, so the Summoner cannot take it. Unless he is a centaur or something.
I have read the build with interest though, and have tried to optimize my Summoner a bit differently.
I let him keep the +4 STR belt that you gave to your Eidolon and instead give him an extra set of arms.
I use his Half Elf Adaptive alternative to get Proficiency: Short Swords
Then get 4 +1 Short Swords. EDIT: Weapon Focus!
He takes the monstrous multi weapon fighting feat, as it has lower dex requirement. It does require that you can rationalize that he has had daily access to multiple arms prior to level 9 though.
The Monk's robe trick is dead on. It saves a ton of points otherwise spent on Claws. Going Half Elf for the extra evolution points is also a no brainer.
If relevant, the Eidolon can carry a Darkwood Heavy Shield +1 for a mere sum of 1.257, gaining +3 AC but losing 1 attack. (I suppose some trickery can be done with feats, but not sure it is worth it.)
This is not possible. To take Pounce you must be a quadruped, so the Summoner cannot take it. Unless he is a centaur or something.
I have read the build with interest though, and have tried to optimize my Summoner a bit differently.
I let him keep the +4 STR belt that you gave to your Eidolon and instead give him an extra set of arms.
I use his Half Elf Adaptive alternative to get Proficiency: Short Swords
Then get 4 +1 Short Swords. EDIT: Weapon Focus!
He takes the monstrous multi weapon fighting feat, as it has lower dex requirement. It does require that you can rationalize that he has had daily access to multiple arms prior to level 9 though.
The Monk's robe trick is dead on. It saves a ton of points otherwise spent on Claws. Going Half Elf for the extra evolution points is also a no brainer.
If relevant, the Eidolon can carry a Darkwood Heavy Shield +1 for a mere sum of 1.257, gaining +3 AC but losing 1 attack. (I suppose some trickery can be done with feats, but not sure it is worth it.)
I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that since the eidolon was a quadruped that he could take the pounce evolution.
aspect:
At 10th level, a summoner can divert up to 2 points from his eidolon's evolution pool to add evolutions to himself. He cannot select any evolution that the eidolon could not possess, and he must be able to meet the requirements as well.
I guess though that being a quadruped is a requirement so that will need to be rebuilt. Though the eidolon itself was a much better source of dpr then the summoner. The summoner could be turned into a pure buffer or a multiweapon fighter. If you want your summoner to be a multiweapon fighter then I suggest having a slightly higher dex and picking up two weapon fighting earlier on. Then when you get 4 arms at lvl 10, your two weapon fighting gets replaced with multiweapon fighting.
Lvl 10 pokey the half-elf multiweapon fighting summoner
Str 15+1lvls +2 half elf stat boost=18+2 enhancement=20
Dex 13+1lvls+2enhancement=16
Con 12+2 enhancement=14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14
HP=8 +4.5*9+10=78.5
AC=10+4 mage armor+2 shield ally+3 dex +4 NA from barkskin+1 deflection=24
Fortitude save=3 base+2 con+2circumstance=+7(+9 w/heroism)
Reflex=3 base+3 dex+2 circumstance=+8(+10 w/heroism)
Will save= 7 base+-1+2 circumstance=+8(+10 w/heroism)
Skills: use magic device(+15), spellcraft(+13)
Bab=7 to hit=14, +1 when hasted,+2 heroism,+4 flanking w/ eidolon.
Main hand damage= d8+1 enhancement+5
Off hand damage=d8+1+2
Situational damage increases:+1 when flanking,+3 when using arcane strike
Feats: free ewp(sawtooth sabre), arcane strike(swift action for +3 damage), craft wondrous item, two weapon fighting(becomes multi),outflank, weapon focus(sawtooth sabre).
Traits: dirty fighter(+1 damage when flanking), hedge magician(crafted items cost 5% less)
Aspect:
Spells known
1st(6 uses) lvl: mage armor, shield, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, rejuvenate eidolon.
2nd(5 uses) lvl: barkskin, haste, invisibility, protection from arrows, resist energy
3rd(3 uses) lvl: enlarge person(mass), heroism, stoneskin, greater magic fang.
4th(1 use) lvl:, overland flight, greater evolution surge
Equipment(55850 out of 62k spent): ring of protection(2k),ioun stone of con+2, ioun stone of dex+2(3.8k), ioun stone of str+2(3.8k), 4 +1 sawtooth sabres(2.3*4=9.2k)
punchy:
Punchy the Quadraped Eidolon:
Str 24+4enhancement=28
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11
Hp=10+7*5.5+64=112.5 avg
AC= 10+3 dex+12 NA+ 4 mage armor-1 size+1monk=29
Natural Armor(2 base+8 from lvls+ 2 large evolution+2 ina evolution)
Fortitude=6 base+4 con+2 resistence=+12
Reflex= 6 bsae+3 dex+2 res=+11
Will= 2 base+2 res+2 iron will=+6(8/w heroism, 12 /w devotion)
Bab=8
Evolutions: large, claw(on legs),Imp natural armor(1x), pounce, limbs: armsx3, simple weapon prof
Feats: multiweapon fighting, improved unarmed strike, outflank, iron will.
Equipment: shocking Amulet of mighty fists +2(21,375), monk’s robe(6,175),cloak of resistence+2(1.9k), belt of giant strength+4(7.6k)
pokey dpr:
Summoner’s attack
Bab=7 to hit=14, +2 heroism, +1 when hasted,+4 when flanking,-2 multiweaponfighting.
unbuffed Full attack: 12/12/12/12/7
+12 main hand=.45*10.5*1.1=5.2
+12 off hand=.45*7.5*1.1=3.71
+7 main hand=.2*10.5*1.1=2.31
DPR=18.64( low…)
Full attack w/heroism included: 14/14/14/14/9
+14 main hand=.55*10.5*1.1=6.35
+14 off hand=.55*7.5*1.1=4.54
+9 main hand=.3*10.5*1.1=3.47
DPR= 23.44
Heroism+ Flanking w/ E: 18/18/18/18/13
+18 main hand= .75*11.5*1.1=9.49
+18 off hand=.75*8.5*1.1=7.01
+13 main hand=.5*11.5*1.1=6.33
DPR= 36.85
Heroism+flanking+arcane strike: 18/18/18/18/13
+18 main hand= .75*14.5*1.1=11.96
+18 off hand=.75*11.5*1.1=9.49
+13 main hand=.5*14.5*1.1=7.98
DPR= 48.41
Heroism+ flanking+arcane strike+ hasted: 19/19/19/19/19/14
+19 Main hand=.8*14.5*1.1=12.76
+19 off hand=.8*11.5*1.1=10.12
+14 main hand=.55*14.5*1.1=8.77
DPR=64.65
Main hand damage= d8+1 enhancement+5=10.5
Off hand damage=d8+1+2=7.5
(+1 when flanking,+3 when using arcane strike)
punchy dpr:
Eidolon’s attack
Bab=8
To hit= 8 bab+9str+2 enhancement+2 heroism+2charge=+23
Gauntlets 21/21/21/21/21/21/16
Main hand gauntlet damage=2d6+d6 shock+11=21.5
Off hand Gauntlet damage= 2d6+d6 shock+6=16.5
2 claws 21/21
Claw damage= d6+d6shock+6=13
1 bite 21
D8+d6shock+6=14
+21 Main hand gauntlet=1.05*.9*21.5=20.318
+16 main hand gauntlet=1.05*.65*21.5= 14.674
+21 off hand gauntlet=1.05*.9*16.5=15.592
+21 claw attack=1.05*.9*13=12.285
+21 bite attack=1.05*.9*14=13.23
Total dpr=150.752
Hasted charge
7 gauntlet attacks at 22/22/22/22/22/22/22/17
2 claw attacks
1 bite
+22 Main hand gauntlet=1.05*.95*21.5=21.45
+17 main hand gauntlet=1.05*.7*21.5= 15.80
+22 off hand gauntlet=1.05*.95*16.5=16.46
+22 claw attack=1.05*.95*13=12.97
+22 bite attack=1.05*.95*14=13.96
DPR=180.9
ok so I would try to run pokey and punchy like this.
Pre-combat: pokey puts barkskin on himself. Mage armor on both of them and heroism on both of them.
Round 1: Initiative is rolled and pokey goes somewhere in there. Pokey casts haste on himself, punchy and whichever allies are within 30ft.
Punchy charges a 24 AC target and unloads an average of 180.9 dpr. Punchy takes his 60ft movement and follows to the target.
Round 2:If a 5ft step from pokey can put them in flanking position, he full attacks. If so, he pops a swift action for arcane strike and deals an average of 64.65 dpr. Otherwise he takes a move action and gets into flanking position with punchy and makes a single attack. He could also cast mass enlarge person on himself and punchy(but I forgot to do numbers for that...). Anyway, Punchy unloads another full attack of at least 180 dpr.
Rounds 3 and beyond look like repeats of previous rounds unless horrible things happen to pokey's buffs in which case pokey makes a sad face :(
Anyway, the numbers are laid out and let me know if I built anything incorrectly again. Summoner's are an information overload.
ok so I would try to run pokey and punchy like this.
Pre-combat: pokey puts barkskin on himself. Mage armor on both of them and heroism on both of them.
Round 1: Initiative is rolled and pokey goes somewhere in there. Pokey casts haste on himself, punchy and whichever allies are within 30ft.
Punchy charges a 24 AC target and unloads an average of 180.9 dpr. Punchy takes his 60ft movement and follows to the target.
Round 2:If a 5ft step from pokey can put them in flanking position, he full attacks. If so, he pops a swift action for arcane strike and deals an average of 64.65 dpr. Otherwise he takes a move action and gets into flanking position with punchy and makes a single attack. Punchy unloads another full attack of 180 dpr.
Rounds 3 and beyond look like repeats of previous rounds unless horrible things happen to pokey's buffs in which case pokey makes a sad face :(
Casting haste in round 1 == Bad Idea. I don't think you can command summoned creatures outside of your turn. So if you cast a spell, the eidolon has to charge and attack at the same time.
Normal DPR ~200
Hasted DPR ~240
By sitting around and casting haste on round 1 you actually lose average DPR.
I was just thinking that unless I start the first round next to my target, I wouldn't be getting a full attack since I removed pounce from the build( I might not be able to take it anyway). Thus I thought, I lose an attack and my eidolon gains an attack. and then the rest of my first round is spent approaching the target. Hopefully 60ft is enough to get me next to it or within 5ft atleast.
Also, I can buff 1 person within 30 ft of me per caster lvl so I can be buffing myself, my eidolon, and possibly the rest of the party.
I was just thinking that unless I start the first round next to my target, I wouldn't be getting a full attack since I removed pounce from the build( I might not be able to take it anyway). Thus I thought, I lose an attack and my eidolon gains an attack. and then the rest of my first round is spent approaching the target. Hopefully 60ft is enough to get me next to it or within 5ft atleast.
Also, I can buff 1 person within 30 ft of me per caster lvl so I can be buffing myself, my eidolon, and possibly the rest of the party.
Great in theory, I am just not sure how the rules for commanding summoned creatures interacts with you trying to cast spells while riding one of them. Trying to cast haste from the back of a charging eidolon would definately qualify for a concentration check, and the eidolon may or may not get the benefit since the actions happen at the same time.
I was going to do a cleric, but since Treantmonk keeps fiddling with my scratch numbers I'm going to do a monk now, nyah. I am really pulling out all the stops on making this monk a wrecking ball. Do take a look at his defensive numbers to see what kind of tradeoffs are being made; on average, he survives a full attack from a fire giant with .7 HP remaining.
While I stuck to the stated rules for this build, I think a better-balanced monk would drop to a +1 amulet of mighty fists and go with a monk's robe, leading to -1 to hit, +.5 damage, +1 AC, and an additional 2000 GP to spend, probably picking up some bracers of armor along the way.
I have also assumed that Power Attacking while using Flurry of Blows counts the FOB BAB and not the monk's normal BAB. Some GMs rule otherwise. (And seriously, please don't derail this thread with that argument.)
I was just thinking that unless I start the first round next to my target, I wouldn't be getting a full attack since I removed pounce from the build( I might not be able to take it anyway). Thus I thought, I lose an attack and my eidolon gains an attack. and then the rest of my first round is spent approaching the target. Hopefully 60ft is enough to get me next to it or within 5ft atleast.
Also, I can buff 1 person within 30 ft of me per caster lvl so I can be buffing myself, my eidolon, and possibly the rest of the party.
Great in theory, I am just not sure how the rules for commanding summoned creatures interacts with you trying to cast spells while riding one of them. Trying to cast haste from the back of a charging eidolon would definately qualify for a concentration check, and the eidolon may or may not get the benefit since the actions happen at the same time.
Ah, there is the confusion. Don't worry charender. I am no longer using the eidolon as a mount. I was trying to use him as a mount before when I thought I could give the summoner pounce but that is likely incorrect.
To James, I have seen that opinion before about AoMF.
But RAW, AoMF enhances natural attacks and unarmed attacks(not just unarmed strikes). Gauntlet attacks are unarmed attacks so they get the boost. Considering I need Improved unarmed strike to avoid AoO's while attacking with a gauntlet it seems in line with intent as well.
What may more likely change down the line is the way eidolon's can bypass their natural attack limit by making weapon attacks. Though at that point, why make a multiweapon eidolon.
To James, I have seen that opinion before about AoMF.
But RAW, AoMF enhances natural attacks and unarmed attacks(not just unarmed strikes). Gauntlet attacks are unarmed attacks so they get the boost. Considering I need Improved unarmed strike to avoid AoO's while attacking with a gauntlet it seems in line with intent as well.
Not sure that it should fly between that and multiweapon fighting using gauntlets.
What happens if we ditch the gauntlets? My eidolon has improved unarmed strike anyway. So they may not have been necessary except as a good way to be certain that I have multiple separate attacks.
Now a monk cannot multi-weapon fight with unarmed strikes because it says there is no such thing as an off hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. But an eidolon using a monk's robe only gets the unarmed strike damage(not the free IUS or other stuff).
If he now multi-weapon fights with his unarmed strikes. He has 6 arms and he can throw 6 punches(punches are listed as unarmed strikes in the combat section describing unarmed attacks.)
I avoided this because in my mind it was less clear than gauntlet attacks. You have 6 gauntlets on your arms, you make 6 gauntlet attacks. Felt simple. Suddenly you are not wearing gauntlets is anything different? For a monk it would definitely be because they have a class ability saying that unarmed strikes cannot be off hand.
Thats why I feel the gauntlets are more legit than that. Because
1. they are unarmed attacks and the amulet says it applies to unarmed attacks.
2. They are easily identifiable as separate.
Anyway, the next question is, can one make multiple unarmed strikes if they have the extra limbs and have multiweapon fighting?
So I'm trying to get tejon's spreadsheet to work with my Zen Archer/Inquisitor. It just doesn't seem to like Flurrying with a ranged weapon. Any suggestions?
WOW over 200 impressive tho i think i have proven that a ninja or a rogue dont need to dual class to be effective in combat. yes?
Your ninja was doing 179 dpr right? That is pretty good. Could you break down the dpr for me though. How much of it is from poison? just because poison might be considered a consumable resource and the op wasn't a fan of consumables.
Also, what sources are the feats from and what source is the ninja from? I do not think it is an archetype from the apg.
What do you think of the rebuilt summoner/eidolon duo? I mostly kept eidolon the same but redid the summoner as a multi-weapon fighter and added the +1 damage when flanking trait and arcane strike to boost damage. And had both the eidolon and the summoner pick up outflank to really boost their + to hit.
I also have technically not accounted for all their possible dpr. Because anytime one of them successfully crits their target, the other gets an AoO. Switching to keen kukris could really boost dpr if the eidolon also picked up combat reflexes.
I felt pretty much the same way, but after digging I couldn't see anything specific that was against the rules.
By the letter of the RAW, if you have an amulet of mighty fists +3 and a pair of mundane gauntlets, your unarmed attacks will be at +3.
I wouldn't allow it at my table, because I feel it is against the RAI, but it is not against the RAW as far as I can tell.
Well the build is on the one hand using gauntlets as not armed for the amulet and at the same time claiming gauntlets as weapons for multiweapon fighting.
Doesn't seem right, and I don't see many allowing it even with a FAQ supporting it much less without one.
How does one handle +1 flaming gauntlets with a frost & flaming amulet of mighty fists for example? Do you get +1 flaming frost or +1 flaming flaming frost or either +1 flaming or flaming frost?
Now if the amulet of mighty fists were say +1 defending and one of the gauntlets was +5... how does this work?
I felt pretty much the same way, but after digging I couldn't see anything specific that was against the rules.
By the letter of the RAW, if you have an amulet of mighty fists +3 and a pair of mundane gauntlets, your unarmed attacks will be at +3.
I wouldn't allow it at my table, because I feel it is against the RAI, but it is not against the RAW as far as I can tell.
Well the build is on the one hand using gauntlets as not armed for the amulet and at the same time claiming gauntlets as weapons for multiweapon fighting.
Doesn't seem right, and I don't see many allowing it even with a FAQ supporting it much less without one.
How does one handle +1 flaming gauntlets with a frost & flaming amulet of mighty fists for example? Do you get +1 flaming frost or +1 flaming flaming frost or either +1 flaming or flaming frost?
Now if the amulet of mighty fists were say +1 defending and one of the gauntlets was +5... how does this work?
-James
Look closely at the rules for unarmed attacks
Spoiler:
Strike, Unarmed
Description: An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
Thus, unarmed attacks are weapons and thus use multi-attack. The gauntlets are necessary to make unarmed attack do lethal damage.
Like I said, the it is legal by RAW, but it still seems to go against the RAI.
Thus, unarmed attacks are weapons and thus use multi-attack.
just in case someone gets confused, I am sure you meant multi-weapon fight.
The main problem with this is that many people come into reading the unarmed attack rules with notions in the mind ahead of time. we have notions about fighting and martial arts that might color our reading. It does not help that the rules for these things are located in several places.
There are basically 4 attack groups(without going to list light, one handed, and two-handed weapons). melee weapon attacks, ranged weapon attacks, natural attacks, and unarmed attacks.
Unarmed attacks are melee weapon attacks with exceptions.
1. you don't normally count as armed.
2. You don't normally deal lethal damage.
3. These limitations can be removed by taking improved unarmed strike.
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks(listed as such in the equipment list) and they basically modify the issue of doing nonlethal damage.
I do not see the actual RAI issue. Gauntlets are included in this group. You are not armed with them. If we are applying the usual limitations of unarmed attacks to gauntlets, how can stop considering them unarmed attacks when it benefits them to be considered such?
The part I am personally fuzzy on is the raw/rai nature of how AoMF works with an already magical or enhanced gauntlet(some of you might be better versed with this part of the rules than me). Which is what really bothers you I think. It is strange that one would be ok with AoMF enhancing 7 natural attacks and any unarmed strikes you make which could be 8+ enhanced attacks, but turn it into enhancing gauntlets and it feels fishy.
Well. I wrote it all down in my legal pad.
If you take Falchion Fred, and drop Improved Initiative for Elven Curve Blade Proficiency, and also use the Two Handed Fighter archetype, his DPS goes up to 63.215 when using Power Attack
has anyone done a nova telekinesis mage? I think something like alchemist 1/wizard 9 would be a funny 2x per day(+1 per lvl 5 pearl of power) encounter ender.
at 225 vials of alchemist fire or acid flask(that deal d6+int mod on a hit and 1+int mod on a miss) it would be pretty devastating. I am sure people have already done this with arrows though so not so interesting.
edit: I may have misunderstood the spell since I think it says one object per caster lvl up to 15. So just 15 things being thrown. My bad :(
Could someone do me gigantic favor and find the DPR for a dual wielding Hand Crossbow Fighter 10? My math is always wrong on this kind of stuff, so I'd rather leave it to the professionals lol. I'll be using the Crossbowman archetype from the APG, if you care to use that.
BTW, dual wielding them works with weapon cords, for those who don't know.
Regardless of the DPR, I'm still going to play him anyway cause it's a fun build, I'm just curious what it would be.
Prepare to have your minds asploded in the very near future.
I would like to welcome, lvl 10 reverse the ridden, the white kobold summoner and his eidolon, topper who prefers to be on top.
Things to note-
1. white kobolds are a kobold variant that comes from monsters revisited a 2008 paizo product.
2. reverse got himself permanently(both are animals,reptiles, and reverse has the same ammount of int) PaO'd into a huge adult blue dragon for 1200 gp.
3. Also spellcasting should still be possible because dragons can cast spells with verbal and somatic components.
4. also I had to pick up improved unarmed strike through an item. If this is not ok with people, then you can just imagine poor toppy getting AoO a bit.
reverse the ridden:
Lvl 10 reverse the white kobold summoner( PaO’d into Adult Blue Dragon)
Str 14-4racial+10size+2enhancement=22
Dex 10+2racial=12
Con 12-2racial+8 size+2 enhancement=20
Int 15+1lvls=16
Wis 8
Cha 12+1 inherent+1lvls=14
HP=8 +4.5*9+50=98.5
AC=10+4 mage armor+2 shield ally+1 dex +13NA(8 from being a dragon and 5 from barkskin) -2 size=28
Fortitude save=3 base+5 con+2circumstance=+10(+9 w/heroism)
Reflex=3 base+2 dex+2 circumstance=+7(+9 w/heroism)
Will save= 7 base+-1+2 circumstance=+8(+10 w/heroism)
Skills:fly(+11) use magic device(+15), spellcraft(+16),knowledge:arcane and planes(+16),
Bab=7 to hit=13, +1 gmf,+1 when hasted,+2 heroism,
+16 Bite=2d8+ 9, +16 claws= 2d6+6, +14 wings=d8+3, +14 tail slap=2d6+9
+3 when using arcane strike
Breath weapon= 12d8 electricity, dc 24 reflex save for half 100 ft line or 50ft cone
Feats: additional traits, arcane strike(swift action for +3 damage), craft wondrous item,ability focus(breath weapon), multiattack.
Traits: Lore Seeker(mage armor, barkskin, and heroism),gifted adept(barkskin), hedge magician(crafted items cost 5% less), reactionary.
Spells known
1st(6 uses) lvl: mage armor, shield, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, rejuvenate eidolon.
2nd(5 uses) lvl: barkskin, haste, invisibility, protection from arrows, resist energy
3rd(3 uses) lvl: enlarge person(mass), heroism, stoneskin, greater magic fang.
4th(1 use) lvl:, overland flight, greater evolution surge
Equipment(55850 out of 62k spent): ioun stone of con+2, ioun stone of str+2(3.8k),
topper:
Topper the Quadraped Eidolon:
Str 26+2lvls+4enhancement=32
Dex 16+2 enhancement=18
Con 17
Int 7
Wis 10+2 enhancement=12
Cha 11
Hp=10+7*5.5+24=72.5 avg
AC= 10+4 dex+12 NA+ 4 mage armor-1 size+1monk=30
Natural Armor(2 base+8 from lvls+ 2 large evolution)
Fortitude=6 base+3 con+3 resistence=+12
Reflex= 6 bsae+4 dex+3 res=+13
Will= 2 base+1 wis+3 res =+6(8/w heroism, 12 /w devotion)
Bab=8
To hit=8bab+11str+2morale+1for being mounted-2 mwf=+20
Main hand Gauntlet attack=2d6+d6 shock+13=23.5
Off hand Gauntlet attack= 2d6+d6 shock+7=17.5
Bite attack=d8+d6shock+7=15
Skills=Ride(+20), Stealth(+15), Sense Motive(+11), Craft:exotic saddes(+9)
Evolutions: large, skilled(ride), pounce, limbs: armsx3, simple weapon prof
Feats: multiweapon fighting, mounted combat,ride-by-attack, spirited charge, and improved unarmed strike(free from wayfinder).
Equipment: shocking Amulet of mighty fists +2(21,375), monk’s robe(6,175),cloak of resistence+3(4275gp), belt of giant strength+4(7.6k), wayfinder with deep red ioun stone inserted(4k), +2 wis ioun stone(3.8k)
dpr will have to wait until sunday... but since I am combining pounce and spirited charge, it should be good.
Prepare to have your minds asploded in the very near future.
I would like to welcome, lvl 10 reverse the ridden, the white kobold summoner and his eidolon, topper who prefers to be on top.
Things to note-
1. white kobolds are a kobold variant that comes from monsters revisited a 2008 paizo product.
2. reverse got himself permanently(both are animals,reptiles, and reverse has the same ammount of int) PaO'd into a huge adult blue dragon for 1200 gp.
3. Also spellcasting should still be possible because dragons can cast spells with verbal and somatic components.
4. also I had to pick up improved unarmed strike through an item. If this is not ok with people, then you can just imagine poor toppy getting AoO a bit.
** spoiler omitted **...
pretty sure you only get the polymorph a week. dragons are not reptiles. blue dragon has dragon and earth.
I also don't think the amulet of might fists has any affect on gauntlets. but someone with better rules -Fu than I probably knows that better.
My dot disappeared. Posting now to remember to post a comparison of the monk vs unarmed fighter later. Unless someone else wouldn't mind posting it before I do tomorrow..
pretty sure you only get the polymorph a week. dragons are not reptiles. blue dragon has dragon and earth.
I also don't think the amulet of might fists has any affect on gauntlets. but someone with better rules -Fu than I probably knows that better.
Well, the reptillian subtype is only given used with humanoid creatures. Other regular reptiles are not given the subtype either. Dragons are said to usually be reptile like creatures. They are like magical reptiles. Also kobolds share quite a bit in common with dragons.
1. They claim to have a common background.
2. Also in the paizo source classic monsters revisited they can have chromatic colored scales like the true dragons and can even get a breath weapon.
Also in dnd 3.5, they were of stated to be of common heritage with true dragons. So it should match up pretty well. Though being in form for 1 week is not so bad. One could make a half-elf into a dragon for 1 week as well which would likely be a better dpr build.
Toppy's to hit bonus=8bab+11str+2morale+1for being mounted-2 mwf+2when charging=+22
Main hand Gauntlet attack=2d6+d6 shock+13=23.5
Off hand Gauntlet attack= 2d6+d6 shock+7=17.5
Bite attack=d8+d6shock+7=15
All of the above are doubled on a mounted charge.
DPR of Toppy on mounted pounce w/heroism:
+22/17 main hand gauntlet attacks
.95*47+.05*.95*70.5= 47.998
.70*47+.05*.7*70.5=35.367
I will admit I am alittle off on the crit damage as the formula likely gets alittle more complicated in areas because with spirited charge, normal damage is doubled and on a crit it goes up to tripled instead. Then combine this issue with the small difference of multiplying energy damage on the crit. So dpr might be slightly less than 10 points lower in reality.
Anyway, I am only showing toppy because he is the most significant contributor. Since most pounces will kill the enemy, it is unlikely that poor reverse the kobold is going to get to make many full attacks. On the plus side, when there are tons of small minions around, reverse can throw around his 12d8 50ft cone breath weapon which is pretty nifty.
Note damage will go up more if reverse is a half elf because toppy will have 2 more evolution points to mess around with. A half elf can be PaO'd into a blue dragon for a week, 2 weeks if PaO is extended, so I went with the permanent option though.
Prepare to have your minds asploded in the very near future.
you are right -- my mind is blown by the amount of ignoring the rules you do.
1. Traits -- only 1 trait from each type ever -- hedge magician and gifted adept are both magic traits and I'm not even finding this lore seeker you claim to have.
2. Dragons have their own line of polymorph spells instead of using beast shape or alter self specifically because they are dragons not animals. So they obviously are not of the same species, or class. I might give you related and same intelligence -- if your Kobold's intelligence is the same as the defaults in the bestiary. So at best you have a duration factor of 4 -- or 3 hours.
3. Where is your circumstance bonuses coming from?
4. Ioun stones cost more than 3.8k -- and there were rules about crafting for this thread already in place (specifically -- don't).
5. You don't get the size bonuses to stats -- you only get the bonuses the spell that you use grants you.
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I'm not even going to bother with looking at topper -- if that's the best you can do (and follow rules) with the easy parts then he's probably just as bad off.
by raw, and if your going to use cheese it needs to be supported by raw at least. dragons are not reptiles and kobolds are not dragons.
but as I said someone with better rules Fu than I can always correct me.
Just because you say, "RAW" does not mean you are correct. The text does not say much on the topic. Dragons are "like reptiles". Kobolds have the reptilian subtype which is to say that they are humanoids that are "like reptiles"
Spoiler:
The reptilian subtype is only used to describe a set of humanoid races, not all animals and monsters that are true reptiles.
note that reptilian humanoids are not true reptiles. In fact all the true reptiles do not have the subtype. Also it is dumb to call it cheesing if I were really cheesing it, I would just make a half elf who could stay a blue dragon for 2 weeks at a time(and it would only cost me alittle over 1000gp).
So apparently I'm a glutton for punishment -- I looked at topper, fortunately his problems aren't quite as bad as reverse's problems.
1. Eidolon do not get maximum HP for their first hit dice (note you get maximum HP for your first level not your first hit dice).
2. Multi-weapon fighting is iffy at best -- completely up to GM discretion.
3. Where is the morale bonus to hit coming from?
4. With gauntlets either (1) you don't need improved unarmed strike or (2) you *might* not get the bonus from the amulet (it has been up in the air just how gauntlets and unarmed strikes interact)
5. Money Issues (again)
6. Being mounted only gives a bonus to hit under specific circumstances, probably best to not assume that you'll get it.
7. Skill bonuses are off -- I think you simply forgot the class skill bonus.
Prepare to have your minds asploded in the very near future.
you are right -- my mind is blown by the amount of ignoring the rules you do.
1. Traits -- only 1 trait from each type ever -- hedge magician and gifted adept are both magic traits and I'm not even finding this lore seeker you claim to have.
2. Dragons have their own line of polymorph spells instead of using beast shape or alter self specifically because they are dragons not animals. So they obviously are not of the same species, or class. I might give you related and same intelligence -- if your Kobold's intelligence is the same as the defaults in the bestiary. So at best you have a duration factor of 4 -- or 3 hours.
3. Where is your circumstance bonuses coming from?
4. Ioun stones cost more than 3.8k -- and there were rules about crafting for this thread already in place (specifically -- don't).
5. You don't get the size bonuses to stats -- you only get the bonuses the spell that you use grants you.
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I'm not even going to bother with looking at topper -- if that's the best you can do (and follow rules) with the easy parts then he's probably just as bad off.
woah scary amount of negativity. I was being silly because it was April 1st. That is why I quoted homestarrunner.com
1. My bad with the traits. I was just messing around as I had quite a few feats open to use with summoner. So I picked up 2 extra traits for fun. That mistake only boosted my AC by 1. Sorry again.
2. Yeah I used PaO to turn into a huge dragon because PaO lets you turn one object or creature into another. I used the bonuses from form of the dragon 4 because they are the bonuses for turning into a huge dragon. I apologize if that was a mistake. But then again, even on a re-reading, I am not sure what you are supposed to use as PaO seems to have 2 sets of conflicting rules(partly because they tried to incorporate the new polymorphing rules with the old 3.5 PaO text.
On the note of duration, well I heavily disagree with you. For one thing, the +5 category that matters most is, are they in the same kingdom(scientific term). So of the kingdoms, dragons most definitely fit into the one called Animalia. Thus any player race can have atleast a +7 lvl of closeness to dragons.
3. Well, if you want me to tell you I can, but it should be pretty obvious that the summoner's circumstance bonus to saves and his +2 shield bonus to armor class come from being near his eidolon. But if you have not read the summoner class, then it might be confusing.
4. There were also rules in this thread that said, that breaking 1 or 2 rules was ok. I followed most of the others, like the target ac and getting defenses high enough.
5. well actually, you do get size bonuses to stats when spells grant you size bonuses to stats. Now I may have applied the wrong bonuses because how one implements the changes of PaO can be questionable. PaO basically says, this spell is limited to working like greater polymorph... except it is not.
4. There were also rules in this thread that said, that breaking 1 or 2 rules was ok. I followed most of the others, like the target ac and getting defenses high enough.
I honestly am not in the mood at the moment to start looking over the build (long day), but I would like to say that when breaking rules was brought up it comes with a disclaimer. Post which rules you are breaking with the build.
So apparently I'm a glutton for punishment -- I looked at topper, fortunately his problems aren't quite as bad as reverse's problems.
1. Eidolon do not get maximum HP for their first hit dice (note you get maximum HP for your first level not your first hit dice).
2. Multi-weapon fighting is iffy at best -- completely up to GM discretion.
3. Where is the morale bonus to hit coming from?
4. With gauntlets either (1) you don't need improved unarmed strike or (2) you *might* not get the bonus from the amulet (it has been up in the air just how gauntlets and unarmed strikes interact)
5. Money Issues (again)
6. Being mounted only gives a bonus to hit under specific circumstances, probably best to not assume that you'll get it.
7. Skill bonuses are off -- I think you simply forgot the class skill bonus.
1. Small difference, easily changed.
2. Well that is an interesting situation that makes little or no sense. Though GM's have every right to change the rules I guess.
3. As stated it comes from heroism.
4. well I take the stance the you need IUS if you don't want to eat a ton of AoOs. The other part is already answered further up in this thread. It is not up in the air how gauntlets and amulets of might fists interact.
5. Yeah I know. Crafting... it is something casters do. Especially now that I don't lose xp just to do it.
6. I know. Though since toppers mount is huge, he can keep that bonus against large or smaller opponents.
7. Not sure how the skill bonuses are off. I can only get 8 ranks(HD is the max I think) and I get a +3 class bonus on stealth and sense motive but not ride and then I add the relevant stat. Looks like sense motive is 1 point low.
Traits are more than just a +1 to AC -- they seem to be accounting for 3 spells known -- 3 big spells at that (mage armor, barkskin, and heroism) -- I'm still not sure where this lore keeper trait is coming from or what exactly it's doing for you -- please provide your reference on it.
In order to belong to the same kingdom dragons would have to be animals -- which they are not -- dragons are dragons -- not animals.
Never assume people know where your bonuses are coming from -- show your work -- otherwise it's simply another mistake. It also helps to show when something might not apply.
On the crafting -- no where in the crafting rules does it actual state you get extra wealth by level for taking the crafting feats -- you still only get the same amount of stuff even if you make it yourself. This is because wealth by level is based off of what you have, not how you get it.
5. I can (kind of) see your point on this one. Not that I agree -- but I can see where you would get this from.
as to topper:
You didn't state heroism was up -- you showed it with the save throws -- but that's hardly a statement of, "This buff is up."
Multi-weapon fighting is a monster feat -- which are completely up to the GM to allow (or not allow) people to take. In fact even though by core animal companions have specific language allowing them some monster feats pathfinder society cuts them entirely. The eidolon doesn't even have the animal companion's language to help him get access to those feats. While it might make sense to allow access, it is in no way guaranteed.
Skills: If topper has 8 ranks, and 3 class bonus and +1 for his wisdom that's a +12 bonus. Stealth doesn't have its size penalty in it (8 ranks 3 class 4 stat - 4 size (iirc)), craft is good, as is ride.
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Something I missed the first time around is the inherent bonus to charisma -- not 'illegal' in and of itself but again wealth by level is what you have, not how you get it.
Traits are more than just a +1 to AC -- they seem to be accounting for 3 spells known -- 3 big spells at that (mage armor, barkskin, and heroism) -- I'm still not sure where this lore keeper trait is coming from or what exactly it's doing for you -- please provide your reference on it.
lore keeper is in the prd listed as a trait. Am I supposed to explain sneak attack to you if it is in a build? Anyway, it just boosts caster lvl by 1 with 3 spells you list. It was just a way to spend a feat, at most I would have gotten 1 more armor class from barkskin by getting its caster lvl up to 12.
Quote:
In order to belong to the same kingdom dragons would have to be animals -- which they are not -- dragons are dragons -- not animals.
You are confusing creature type with kingdom. Unless you can point to a spot in the rules that defines kingdom as creature type, you are clearly wrong. The scientific kingdom dragons best fit into is Animalia. They are definitely not any of the other 5.
Quote:
Never assume people know where your bonuses are coming from -- show your work -- otherwise it's simply another mistake. It also helps to show when something might not apply.
seriously, heroism is mentioned more than enough times. It is mentioned in saves and again later when I calculate dpr, I mention it again.
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On the crafting -- no where in the crafting rules does it actual state you get extra wealth by level for taking the crafting feats -- you still only get the same amount of stuff even if you make it yourself. This is because wealth by level is based off of what you have, not how you get it.
ridiculous. With crafting, you can often make things for half of what it would cost you to buy them. Thus if a GM gives you so much gold to work with, you can always get more out of it through crafting than buying.
Quote:
Multi-weapon fighting is a monster feat -- which are completely up to the GM to allow (or not allow) people to take. In fact even though by core animal companions have specific language allowing them some monster feats pathfinder society cuts them entirely. The eidolon doesn't even have the animal companion's language to help him get access to those feats. While it might make sense to allow access, it is in no way guaranteed.
actually it is guaranteed as an eidolon does not even need to take the feat in order to get it. He can take two weapon fighting when he has 2 arms and then
Spoiler:
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
If a player has two weapon fighting and then their number of arms increases, by the rules, multi-weapon fighting replaces it. A DM can override that rule and so can pathfinder society, but the fact remains that raw, multi-weapon fighting automatically replaces two-weapon fighting when you have more than 2 arms.
Quote:
Skills: If topper has 8 ranks, and 3 class bonus and +1 for his wisdom that's a +12 bonus. Stealth doesn't have its size penalty in it (8 ranks 3 class 4 stat - 4 size (iirc)), craft is good, as is ride.
I will repost the build to fix small errors like this.
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Something I missed the first time around is the inherent bonus to charisma -- not 'illegal' in and of itself but again wealth by level is what you have, not how you get it.
I posted that my character was a white kobold, white kobolds get a +1 inherent bonus to their charisma. you can look at the variant here.
Since it was april fools, I picked a bunch of silly options that have little or no effect on dpr. White kobold variant is one of those. I just picked em because the option existed at the time.
