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I have some wording problems with a few of the Alchemist's discoveries. It is that they use the word 'potion'.
Alchemists can't make potions, so what are Extracts, Bombs and Mutagens called?
And what are elixirs? There are a few mentions of them, but what and where are they?
Here are the discoveries I don't like the word potion on:
-Dilution. When you say potion (and elixir) do you mean potions like from the brew potion feat? Or do you mean Extracts, or Mutagens? Or all three? Or none of those?
-Enhance Potion, Eternal Potion, Extend Potion. Did you mean 'brew potion feat' potions?
I'm pretty sure every time they say "potion" what they mean is "potion". I don't see anything that would indicate otherwise.
Extracts, bombs, and mutagens are called extracts, bombs, and mutagens, respectively.
Elixirs are wondrous items that can be drank (e.g. elixir of fire breath).
With Dilution, I assume when they say "potion" they mean "potion".
Likewise with Enhance Potion, Eternal Potion, and Extend Potion.
Potion is a type of item, just like if they had said Wand, Staff or Rod.. They are talking about potions.
Potion is a type of item, just like if they had said Wand, Staff or Rod.. They are talking about potions.But why say potion when they can't MAKE potions!
It is a potion, just not one someone can use. Does not change it from being a potion however
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Potion is a type of item, just like if they had said Wand, Staff or Rod.. They are talking about potions.But why say potion when they can't MAKE potions!
A fighter can't make a potion either, but he can use one.
As the class stands right now, they can modify a specific type of magic item (Potions) that he is dependant on others to create for him. Not unlike an assassin with no ranks in Craft/Poison.
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The word potion in the alchemist class refers to the magic item, which they cannot (currently) create.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you for the clarification Jason (and everyone else). I'm a big terminology guy. I wonder if you might include a sidebar in the actual book clearing this up...?
Thank you for the clarification Jason (and everyone else). I'm a big terminology guy. I wonder if you might include a sidebar in the actual book clearing this up...?
A sidebar that says "References to Potions below are, you know, ...Potions?"
It seems your confusion was over them modifying potions when they don't necessarily make them. That's a great point. So take out the mysterious "Throw Anything" bonus feat, replace it with "Brew Potions" and I think this problem is solved.
Throw anything is there for the bombs and the splash weapons, as without that feat you would get a -4 to throw them. With the feat you not only do not get the -4 but gain a +1 with splash weapons
Throw anything is there for the bombs and the splash weapons, as without that feat you would get a -4 to throw them. With the feat you not only do not get the -4 but gain a +1 with splash weapons
I don't know where you're getting -4 from:
"Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the -4 nonproficiency penalty."
Sigh, ignore me, I should have recalled that I used it on yall not to long back :). Am not sure why I was thinking it took the -4, anyhow carry on
Technically it's not really the "Throw Anything Feat" but a modified version of it that they get for free. That particular bonus feat also grants the Alchemist their INT bonus on damage when using splash weapons. As well the +1 circumstance bonus to hit is nice too.
I don't think losing this feat would be good for the class unless you make the damage bonus it's own class feature.
As well if they get the brew potion feat it would also have to be modified version of it since they can't cast spells. So even if you could take it would be of no use unless the feat is modified as class feature to allow infusions and maybe bombs and mutagens might be nice.
As well if they get the brew potion feat it would also have to be modified version of it since they can't cast spells. So even if you could take it would be of no use unless the feat is modified as class feature to allow infusions and maybe bombs and mutagens might be nice.
Spellcasting is one requirement for creating a magic item, but you can waive that requirement by increasing the DC by +5 (exception: you can't waive it for spell-trigger or spell-completion items).
Even with the increased DC, it's trivially easy to succeed. For instance, the DC for a CL 3 potion is 18 for a non-spellcaster -- easy for a level 3 alchemist with a maxed-out Craft (alchemy) skill, taking 10.
The word potion in the alchemist class refers to the magic item, which they cannot (currently) create.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Currently, eh? Is this an allusion to something...?
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The word potion in the alchemist class refers to the magic item, which they cannot (currently) create.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I really do hope you'll be changing the class so that they can brew potions, as it stands it is a bit ridiculous that they can't. Especially seeing as Fighters can forge their own magic arms and armour now.
I'd like to see Alchemists capable of brewing arcane/divine potions of higher than 3rd level as well. Alchemists shouldn't just be able to brew potions, they should have a serious edge in doing so.
At least that's what I think.
As well if they get the brew potion feat it would also have to be modified version of it since they can't cast spells. So even if you could take it would be of no use unless the feat is modified as class feature to allow infusions and maybe bombs and mutagens might be nice.Spellcasting is one requirement for creating a magic item, but you can waive that requirement by increasing the DC by +5 (exception: you can't waive it for spell-trigger or spell-completion items).
Even with the increased DC, it's trivially easy to succeed. For instance, the DC for a CL 3 potion is 18 for a non-spellcaster -- easy for a level 3 alchemist with a maxed-out Craft (alchemy) skill, taking 10.
You are correct but that still doesn't allow Alchemist to create potions as potions are spell trigger items.
"The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell"
So if I'm reading this right that means you can't do it with out the prerequisite of being able to cast spells.
You are correct but that still doesn't allow Alchemist to create potions as potions are spell trigger items.
"The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell"
So if I'm reading this right that means you can't do it with out the prerequisite of being able to cast spells.
The chart that talks about pricing equations in the item creation chapter says they are use-activated.
You are correct but that still doesn't allow Alchemist to create potions as potions are spell trigger items.
Potions are not spell-trigger items like wands are; you need to be a spellcaster to use a wand (without UMD), but anyone can use a potion. They're use-activated, as mentioned above.
Regardless, it still dosen't let alchemists create potions, only actual spellcasters can craft potions due to the way potion making requires a prepared spell to be expended.Potions are not spell-trigger items like wands are; you need to be a spellcaster to use a wand (without UMD), but anyone can use a potion. They're use-activated, as mentioned above.
You are correct but that still doesn't allow Alchemist to create potions as potions are spell trigger items.
That's not true. The item creation rules in PF are different from 3.5, and you can ignore a spell pre-req (meaning the spell doesn't need to be triggered) by increasing the DC to create it by 5.
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Thank you for the clarification Jason (and everyone else). I'm a big terminology guy. I wonder if you might include a sidebar in the actual book clearing this up...?The word potion in the alchemist class refers to the magic item, which they cannot (currently) create.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
it doesn't need to be cleared up.
the permanent potion and improved potion discoveries work on potions.just consider it:
you get a 1st level cure light wounds potion. with the improved potion discovery, a few times a day, you could chug said 1st level potion and increase its caster level to say 5th if you were 5th level. or the same for a potion of mage armor, making it last 5 hours instead of one.
just because the alchemists can't (yet) make potions, doesn't mean that this power applies to their extractions at all. it applies to the regular magic item Potions.
it applies to the regular magic item Potions.
Which is a big mistake. A limited resource class ability (discovery) that only effects things said class can't even create makes no sense whatsoever.
That's not true. The item creation rules in PF are different from 3.5, and you can ignore a spell pre-req (meaning the spell doesn't need to be triggered) by increasing the DC to create it by 5.Regardless, it still dosen't let alchemists create potions, only actual spellcasters can craft potions due to the way potion making requires a prepared spell to be expended.Potions are not spell-trigger items like wands are; you need to be a spellcaster to use a wand (without UMD), but anyone can use a potion. They're use-activated, as mentioned above.
You are correct but that still doesn't allow Alchemist to create potions as potions are spell trigger items.
When making potion though what do you make it of. Say Cleric makes a potion of cure light wounds they do so using the spell. Alchemist have no spells in which to make potion with so what would the potion do? You could bend the rules and allow formulas to be made into potions as they behave like spells for purpose of dispel magic but that's bending the rules. So it seems any one can make a potion that does nothing by applying that +5 DC but it seems like a waste to me.
So it seems any one can make a potion that does nothing by applying that +5 DC but it seems like a waste to me.
No, they can't. Because the Brew Potion feat is required no matter what, and at the moment only spellcasters can take it (Master Craftsman only allows Craft Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Item). However, if the alchemist were to be granted the Brew Potion feat as a bonus feat (as they should be), they would be capable of making potions, even though they are not technically spellcasters.
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it doesn't need to be cleared up.
You're making the assumption that I'm not an idiot. Which I thank you for. I think my confusion over the word potion proves that others will get all mixed up as well. I don't care either way about Alchemists and their ability to make potions, I just want a side bar clarifying when the class refers to potions, they mean the magical item, not the extracts. Because some of us are idiots.
Also, I actually noticed how idiot-proof the Pathfinder rules are compared to 3.5, just in the way they word things; sometimes, the rules didn't change but the way they were explained was, so I think this is an important suggestion, to help Paizo continue to make idiot-proof products.
You're making the assumption that I'm not an idiot. Which I thank you for. I think my confusion over the word potion proves that others will get all mixed up as well. I don't care either way about Alchemists and their ability to make potions, I just want a side bar clarifying when the class refers to potions, they mean the magical item, not the extracts. Because some of us are idiots.
it doesn't need to be cleared up.
Ah, I see what you mean. They could indeed make it a little clearer that extracts and mutagens aren't potions and don't benefit from feats/class features/etc. that improve potions.
The word potion in the alchemist class refers to the magic item, which they cannot (currently) create.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Perhaps Elixir or Tonic would be better? Sense Potion is such a common term for something else.