OK, apologies in advance if this ends up a mess...I'm not sure how to post a table in here, and I'm fairly certain I'll miss some formatting that's needed since word formatting doesn't carry over in a C/P to this.
Note this this is an attempt for a non-magical alchemist, though it retains the extracts per day mechanic (no changes on those numbers). Constructive criticism is more than welcome, but I will simply ignore any flames, even if they may contain a decent point.
Apologies for the title, but it seemed appropriate with the other thread running around.
NOTE: If anyone would care to enlighten me as to how to create a decent table on these boards, I'd be more than happy to add one.
The Alchemist
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The alchemist’s class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (any) (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the planes), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Survival (Wis).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the alchemist.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Alchemists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Alchemy (Ex): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning potion-like extracts, drinks which mimic the effects of various spells. Alchemists keep a limited number of extracts at one time. The chemicals involved have the potential to be exceedingly volatile, and any alchemist is intelligent enough to not carry more than what may be useful, as to avoid accidents. More skilled alchemists will carry more, as they learn to create somewhat less volatile mixtures and find better ways to store them. When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level to the Craft (alchemy) check.
An alchemist can create three special types of items—extracts, bombs, and mutagens. Bombs are explosive splash weapons, and mutagens are transformative elixirs that the alchemist drinks to enhance his physical abilities—both of these are detailed in their own sections below.
Extracts are the most varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, but they are extraordinary in nature, and are not subject to dispel effects. Unlike potions, extracts can have powerful effects and may duplicate spells that a potion normally could not.
An alchemist can create only a certain number of extracts of each level per day. His base daily allotment of extracts is given on Table 5–1. In addition, he receives bonus extracts per day if he has a high Intelligence score, in the same way a wizard receives bonus spells per day. When an alchemist mixes an extract, he infuses the chemicals and reagents in the extract with a drop or two of his own blood (this does not damage the alchemist in any way, though many alchemists fingers show obvious markings from the habit of pricking their fingers for the blood). An extract does not function for anyone but the alchemist himself (but see the “infusion” discovery below). All extracts become inert after 24 hours, as the chemical reactions begin to dwindle, leaving the alchemist with nothing but a foul-tasting mouthful of a strange liquid, so the alchemist must prepare new extracts every day. Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but it’s not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.
Although alchemists don’t actually cast spells, they do have a formulae list that determines what extracts they can create (see end of document). An extract’s effects are activated by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist.
The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level. Creating extracts consumes raw materials, but the cost of these materials is insignificant—comparable to the valueless material components of most spells. If a duplicated spell normally has a costly material component, that component is consumed during the creation of that particular extract. Extracts cannot be made from spells that have focus requirements (alchemist extracts that duplicate divine spells never have a divine focus requirement).
An alchemist may know any number of formulae. All his formulae are kept in a research journal (similar to a wizard’s spellbook), which he must have available when preparing his extracts.
Research Journal: All alchemists keep a research journal containing notes of the formulae used for their extracts. An alchemist must study his research journal each day to prepare his extracts. He cannot prepare any formulae not recorded in his research journal.
An alchemist begins play with a research journal containing two 1st-level formulae of his choice. The alchemist also selects a number of additional 1st-level formulae equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the research journal. At each new alchemist level, he gains one new formulae of any formulae level or levels that he can cast (based on his new alchemist level). At any level that the alchemist gains access to a new level of formulae, he adds one additional formulae of his new highest level to research journal. At any time, an alchemist can also add formulae found in other alchemists’ research journals to his own (following the same rules for a wizard adding spells to his spellbook).
Bomb (Ex): In addition to extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.
Creating a bomb requires a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity as the alchemist adds the catalyst to the components that make up the bomb. Detonating a bomb (typically by throwing the vial of volatile liquid) is a standard action that utilizes the “Throw Splash Weapon” special attack (see page 202 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook). On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The base damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level. Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see below) as they level up. Due to the exceedingly volatile nature of a bomb, especially once the catalyst has been added, the alchemist cannot hand a bomb off to anyone else in combat, and must be the one to throw any bombs he creates. Trying to hand off such a creation in combat would likely have catastrophic results for the attempted users, and it is a feat best not attempted.
At 7th level, the alchemist learns how to create bombs that deal acid damage instead of fire damage (he also retains the ability to create fire bombs).
Throw Anything (Ex): All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.
Mutagen (Ex): At 2nd level, an alchemist discovers how to create a mutagen that he can imbibe in order to heighten his physical prowess at the cost of his personality. It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert. As with an extract or bomb, a mutagen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again.
When the alchemist brews a mutagen, he selects one physical ability score—Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. It’s a standard action to drink a mutagen. Upon being imbibed, the mutagen causes the alchemist to grow bulkier and more bestial, granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +2 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per alchemist level. He also suffers from a -2 alchemical bonus to both his Charisma and Wisdom scores for the duration of the mutagen’s effects. The alchemist is fatigued for 10 minutes after the mutagen wears off as his body recovers from the effects.
At 8th level, the mutagen grants a +4 natural armor bonus and a +2 alchemical bonus to two ability scores. The Charisma and Wisdom penalties remain the same.
At 14th level, these bonuses increase to a +6 natural armor bonus, and a +2 alchemical bonus to all physical ability scores, though the penalties remain the same.
Anyone who drinks a mutagen and isn’t the alchemist that created it must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour— the process for creating a mutagen personalizes the drink to the creator in such a way that it reacts adversely to any other body. Anyone who fails this save also suffers the Charisma and Wisdom penalties for the duration of the nauseated condition. The effects of a mutagen do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end.
Poison Resistance (Ex): At 2nd level, an alchemist gains a +2 bonus on all saving throws against poison. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level and then again to +6 at 8th level. At 10th level, an alchemist becomes completely immune to poison.
Poison Use (Ex): Alchemists are trained in the use of poison and starting at 2nd level, cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a weapon.
Swift Alchemy (Ex): At 3rd level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with astounding speed. It takes an alchemist half the normal amount of time to create alchemical items, and he can apply poison to a weapon as a move-equivalent action.
Brew Potion (Ex): At 3rd level, the alchemist gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat. In addition, the alchemist only adds 3 to the DC of the required skill checks for not meeting the spell prerequisites for creating an item. If he has a formulae that mimics a required spell, he qualifies as having the prerequisite spell. This only applies for creating potions, even if the alchemist gains the ability to create other magic items (such as through the benefits of the Master Craftsman feat). He may also use this ability to create elixirs that would normally require Craft Wondrous Item.
Discovery (Ex): At 3th level, and then again every 3 levels thereafter, an alchemist makes an incredible alchemical discovery. An alchemist cannot select an individual discovery more than once. Some discoveries can only be made if the alchemist has met certain prerequisites first, such as uncovering other discoveries. The DC of any saving throw called for by a discovery is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
Concussive bomb (requires one previous discovery): When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict sonic damage. Concussive bombs deal 1d4 points of sonic damage, plus 1d4 points of sonic damage for every odd-numbered level, instead of 1d6.
Delayed bomb (requires two previous discoveries): The alchemist can place a bomb so that it explodes a number of rounds after the alchemist activates the bomb. This delay can be any number of rounds as chosen by the alchemist, up to a number of rounds equal to his level. If at any point the alchemist reclaims possession of the delayed bomb, he can end the timer and prevent the bomb’s detonation. A delayed bomb detonates immediately if any other creature attempts to touch or move it, or if the bomb’s contents are removed from the vial (such as if the vial breaks). The bomb deals damage as if it scored a direct hit to any creature in the square with the bomb when it detonates, and splash damage to all adjacent creatures as normal. Dispel magic can neutralize a delayed bomb, as can a successful Disable Device check (DC equals 10 + the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier).
Dilution (requires two previous discoveries): Once per day, the alchemist can dilute any one potion or elixir, creating two doses of the same potion from one. Diluting a potion costs a number of gp equal to one-quarter of the potion’s market value. A potion that has been diluted cannot be diluted again. This discovery cannot be used to dilute extracts or mutagens.
Elixir of life (requires four previous discoveries): Once per day, the alchemist can brew an elixir of life. This special concoction costs 25,000 gp to create and takes 1 hour of work. An elixir of life, when administered by the alchemist who brewed it, restores life to a dead creature as per the spell true resurrection. Alternatively, the alchemist himself may drink the elixir of life, after which point he is immediately targeted with a resurrection spell the next time he is killed. Used in this manner, the effects of an elixir of life persist only for a number of days equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier; if he does not die before that time expires, the effects of the elixir of life end.
Enhance potion: A number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier, the alchemist can cause any potion he drinks to function at a caster level equal to his class level.
Eternal potion (requires three previous discoveries, one of which must be extend potion): If an alchemist drinks a potion that he extends, the effects of that potion become permanent until he chooses to make another potion effect permanent.
Explosive bomb: The alchemist’s bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet. Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is a full round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically extinguishes the flames. All other bomb types gain the extended radius from this ability, but no additional benefits.
Extend potion: A number of times per day equal to his Intelligence modifier, the alchemist can cause any potion he drinks that does not have an instantaneous duration to function at twice its normal duration.
Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Force bomb (requires one previous discovery): When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict force damage. Force bombs deal 1d4 points of force damage, plus 1d4 points of force damage for every odd numbered level, instead of 1d6. Creatures that take a direct hit from a force bomb are knocked prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save.
Frost bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict cold damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a frost bomb are staggered on their next turn unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.
Greater mutagen (requires three previous discoveries, one of which must be improved mutagen): The natural armor bonus granted by the alchemist’s mutagen increases by 4. In addition, it grants an additional +2 bonus to two of his physical ability scores (one of these can be added to a score already chosen for the mutagen, increasing that bonus by +2). These bonuses replace those granted by the improved mutagen discovery.
Improved mutagen (requires two previously learned discoveries): The natural armor bonus granted by the alchemist’s mutagen increases by 2. In addition, it grants an additional +2 bonus to one of his physical ability scores (this can be added to a score already chosen for the mutagen, increasing that bonus by +2).
Infuse mutagen: When the alchemist creates a mutagen, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power.
This inflicts 2 points of Intelligence damage to the alchemist and costs 1,000 gp in rare reagents, but the mutagen created persists on its own and is not rendered inert if the alchemist creates another mutagen. This allows an alchemist to create different types of mutagens and keep them handy for emergencies. This does not allow an alchemist to gain the effects of multiple mutagens—only the most recently imbibed mutagen has any effect.
Inferno bomb (requires three previous discoveries, one of which must be smoke bomb): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb duplicate the effects of incendiary cloud instead of fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the
bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level.
Infusion: When the alchemist creates an extract, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. The extract created now persists even after the alchemist sets it down. As long as the extract exists, it continues to occupy one of the alchemist’s daily extract slots. An infused extract can be imbibed by a non-alchemist to gain its effects.
Madness bomb (requires two previous discoveries): The alchemist’s bombs do more than sear flesh—they sear the mind. A creature that takes a direct hit from a madness bomb takes damage from the bomb plus 1d4 points of Wisdom damage. Reduce the amount of normal damage dealt by the bomb by 2d6 (so a bomb that would normally deal 6d6+4 points of damage deals 4d6+4 points of damage instead). The amount of Wisdom damage dealt by a madness bomb is reduced by 1 for each madness bomb that hit the target in the past 24 hours, to a minimum of 1 point of Wisdom damage.
Multi extract (requires two previous discoveries): The alchemist can create extracts that grants multiple effects at once. To determine what effects he can create, he must add the formulae levels of the effects he is trying to combine. A multi extract is treated as an extract equal to the combined level of the formulae it is made up of for the purposes of determining extracts per day.
Mutagenic Breath (requires one previous discovery): Any mutagen created by the alchemist can be created to grant him a breath weapon. He gains a breath weapon of any element his bombs can be made in (but never sonic). The breath weapon deals damage equal to his bombs, but is a 30 ft cone and may only be used once every 1d4 rounds. A mutagen cannot benefit from more than one discovery that adds an additional effect (improved mutagen and greater mutagen do not fall under this category, and apply to all mutagens).
Mutagenic Flight (requires one previous discovery): Any mutagen created by the alchemist can be created to grant him wings for the duration of the mutagen. He has a fly speed equal to his land speed with average maneuverability. A mutagen cannot benefit from more than one discovery that adds an additional effect (improved mutagen and greater mutagen do not fall under this category, and apply to all mutagens).
Mutagenic Growth (requires one previous discovery): Any mutagen created by the alchemist can be created to increase his size for the duration of the mutagen. The alchemist gains a +4 size bonus to Strength and a -2 size penalty to Dexterity. He has a reach of 10 ft, and gains the appropriate size modifiers to AC, CMB, CMD, and BAB. A mutagen cannot benefit from more than one discovery that adds an additional effect (improved mutagen and greater mutagen do not fall under this category, and apply to all mutagens).
Poison bomb (requires two previous discoveries, one of which must be smoke bomb): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb duplicates the effects of cloudkill instead of fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level.
Shock bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict electricity damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a shock bomb are dazzled for 1d4 rounds.
Smoke bomb: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it create a cloud of thick smoke when it detonates. The cloud functions as fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round per level.
Sticky bomb (requires two previous discoveries): The effects of the alchemist’s bombs are persistent and continue to damage creatures for 1 round after the initial damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a sticky bomb take the damage again 1 round later. Bombs that have effects that occur 1 round later instead have those effects occur 2 rounds later.
Sticky poison (requires one previous discovery): Any poison the alchemist creates is sticky—when the alchemist applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.
Stink bomb (requires smoke bomb discovery): The effects of the smoke created by an alchemist’s bomb can duplicate the effects of stinking cloud instead of fog cloud, filling an area equal to twice the bomb’s splash radius for 1 round.
Swift Poisoning: At 6th level, an alchemist can apply a dose of poison to a weapon as a swift action.
Persistent Mutagen (Ex): At 14th level, the effects of a mutagen last for 1 hour per level.
Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
Grand Discovery (Ex): At 20th level, the alchemist makes a grand discovery. He immediately learns two normal discoveries, but also learns a third discovery chosen from the list below.
Awakened Intellect: The alchemist’s Intelligence score permanently increases by 2 points.
Fast Healing: The alchemist gains fast healing 5.
Philosopher’s Stone: The alchemist learns how to create a philosopher’s stone, and can do so once per month at no cost. Creating a philosopher’s stone takes 1 day of work. The secrets of the philosopher’s stone also allow alchemist to conquer aging, and from this point forward he suffers no penalty to his physical ability scores from advanced age. If the alchemist is already suffering such penalties, they are removed at this time.
Poison Touch: The alchemist gains a poisonous touch, as if under the effects of a poison spell. He can suppress or activate this ability as a free action.
True Mutagen: The natural armor bonus granted by the alchemist’s mutagen doubles. In addition, his mutagens grant a +6 alchemical bonus to one score, and a +4 alchemical bonus to his other scores. He may also apply multiple affects to his mutagen if he has the appropriate discoveries.
Holy walls of text, MaverickWolf! I think you could have outlined your ideas without a full rewrite of the class, since many of the class features went unchanged.
As for the ones you have altered: They look good to me. Clearly we're on the same page with respect to adding more discoveries, both to the core progression, and to the list of choices.
The choices you've added also seem largely acceptable. Mutagenic breath, wings, the double extract, they all seem like they belong in a developed list of discoveries. Mutagenic Growth in particular is probably a bit overpowered, given that the other mutagen upgrades only increase the ability bonuses by 2.
On the other hand, I guess since this stuff is 'nonmagical', items wouldn't increase in size along with the alchemist, so popping a growth mutagen would burst him out of his clothes and outsize him for his equipment. Hehe... *very* Jekyll/Hyde.
I also like the flavor of your research journal idea, but in the wrong campaign it could get out of hand. Giving a player access to semi-spontaneous casting (I know, a minute to prepare an extract is hardly 'spontaneous') and then allowing them to potentially know a dozen potions of each level seems like it could get out of hand. They'd be multi-talented whiz kids to put the best bards and rogues to shame. Then they'd suck down a mutagen and take the party fighter to task as well.
For that reason, I think I'd just say "At each level, the alchemist develops 2 new formulae" and then leave additional recipes to gm fiat. Of course, then the player is stuck with less-than-optimal decisions, but that'll happen with your system too. Unless there are alchemists everywhere, in which case we'll have that whole formulae explosion issue to deal with.
I don't know how that balance would end up, but it's something to keep in mind. When a wizard jacks the lich's spellbook, he learns a ton of magic, but at least it's limited to the one loadout for any particular day...
The revised mutagen core mechanics seem alright to me as well, though I'm partial to dealing ability damage (or even drain) over temporary alchemical penalties to stats. This is caustic stuff that you really shouldn't be drinking too much of, but if the only lasting issue is 10 minutes of fatigue, the alchemist could be hulked out most of the day, every day, only taking brief breaks to whip up a new batch when the old one expires. Its weird for both roleplay and mechanics.
I would say just having mutagenic growth give a size increase without any other bonus would be fine.
I wonder if having a high cost to making tons and tons of alchemical items (time, money, hard-to-find materials, etc) would be a decent deterrent to the alchemist stocking up on hundreds of useful things that "break the DM's game."
Just thinking out loud here...
The choices you've added also seem largely acceptable. Mutagenic breath, wings, the double extract, they all seem like they belong in a developed list of discoveries. Mutagenic Growth in particular is probably a bit overpowered, given that the other mutagen upgrades only increase the ability bonuses by 2.
I'll admit I'm not 100% certain on the numbers for it, but I felt that the size penalties to Dex, AC, and BAB (note that the alchemist gets the list bonuses only, not the standard size increase bonuses) make the balance work. It's only an additional +1 to attack and +2 to damage (and you better have improved unarmed strike or a [i[sizing[/i] weapon).
On the other hand, I guess since this stuff is 'nonmagical', items wouldn't increase in size along with the alchemist, so popping a growth mutagen would burst him out of his clothes and outsize him for his equipment. Hehe... *very* Jekyll/Hyde.
Unless he has magical equipment that resizes, this would indeed be a problem.
I also like the flavor of your research journal idea, but in the wrong campaign it could get out of hand. Giving a player access to semi-spontaneous casting (I know, a minute to prepare an extract is hardly 'spontaneous') and then allowing them to potentially know a dozen potions of each level seems like it could get out of hand. They'd be multi-talented whiz kids to put the best bards and rogues to shame. Then they'd suck down a mutagen and take the party fighter to task as well.
For that reason, I think I'd just say "At each level, the alchemist develops 2 new formulae" and then leave additional recipes to gm fiat. Of course, then the player is stuck with less-than-optimal decisions, but that'll happen with your system too. Unless there are alchemists everywhere, in which case we'll have that whole formulae explosion issue to deal with.
I don't know how that balance would end up, but it's something to keep in mind. When a wizard jacks the lich's spellbook, he learns a ton of magic, but at least it's limited to the one loadout for any particular day...
I share your concerns to a point, but I can't figure out a proper limiter that makes any sort of flavor sense at all.
The revised mutagen core mechanics seem alright to...
Good to hear. That was my single biggest worry (especially with changing them to alchemical bonuses).
On a side note, I still need to think of additional mutagen effects to add in discoveries for.
I wonder if having a high cost to making tons and tons of alchemical items (time, money, hard-to-find materials, etc) would be a decent deterrent to the alchemist stocking up on hundreds of useful things that "break the DM's game."
Just thinking out loud here...
Unless we have a boatload of alchemical items coming in the AGP, I don't foresee this being a problem. Any alchemical items that aren't actual class features still require the alchemist to supply the proper supplies. He just makes them faster. If we end up having some powerful alchemical items that actually matter past 5th level, then they likely will be expensive and require hard-to-find components, so I don't think this will be a problem.
I would say just having mutagenic growth give a size increase without any other bonus would be fine.
I'm not sure. One, it feels weird. Two, Large only gives reach (unless you're carrying Large weapon or have Improved Unarmed Strike), but penalizes your AC and BAB. And a lot of your equipment is going to be useless when Large (here's hoping for a flat GP cost enchantment for weapons and armor to size).
I would say just having mutagenic growth give a size increase without any other bonus would be fine.I'm not sure. One, it feels weird. Two, Large only gives reach (unless you're carrying Large weapon or have Improved Unarmed Strike), but penalizes your AC and BAB. And a lot of your equipment is going to be useless when Large (here's hoping for a flat GP cost enchantment for weapons and armor to size).
My thought was the mutagen is already "bulking him up" which is why he gets the bonuses, once he gets the "large size" discovery then he simply gets that portion of it. However a +2 str, -2 dex on top of what the mutagen already doesn't wouldn't be horrible either -- basically an Enlarge Person thrown on top of the regular mutagen (which they can already do at level one anyways). So a bit of a bonus could work out fine too I guess (even if given at 4th level).