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My group has been testing a low level summoner in our mix, and I've got a few observations or ideas.
I feel the summoner should be 1/2 BAB; their focus seems to be to use their eidolon or summoned critters to fight. Having mid grade BAB doesn't really seem appropriate at all. In fact, it's just weird that they were given a mid grade BAB since their focus is to keep themselves out of combat and use minions at all costs. I mean, that seems to be the very definition of a summoner.
Their SLA to summon critters should stay somewhat buffed. At the least it should keep the 1 minute per level duration, although I do have an alternative below.
The tweaks to the Eidolon seem pretty good, so I don't really have any suggestions there. But again, the summoner should be somewhat weak. They should keep their minions close to protect themselves. This balances out the strength and versatility of the Eidolon by making a vulnerable point and forcing the summoner to sort of think tactically and keep themselves safe.
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A possible improvement I had considered was that the summoner could burn extra uses of their SLA to improve the summon ability. The available improvements could be boosted at certain level intervals.
For example:
1 use = normal spell
Possibly at Level 5+
+1 uses = normal spell, with enhanced 1 minute duration
+1 uses = faster cast time; standard from full round
Possibly at Level 10+
+2 uses = normal spell, with enhanced 10 minute duration
+2 uses = faster cast time; swift action
Alternately (or in addition to) this could cap the level of summon spell the summoner could pull off. For example, if I boost my SLA summon to a standard action by burning an extra use per day, it also reduces the level of summon spell I can use by 1. If I enhance it with both duration and cast speed knock the spell level down by 2.
So a level 9 summoner, who can cast level 5 summon monster, could cast level 4 as a standard action, or level 4 with an enhanced duration, or level 3 with both standard and enhanced.
At high levels it may be possible to get the summon down to a move or swift action with large adjustments; a move action might be +3 or +4 (costing 4 extra uses and dropping the spell level by 4), and swift might be even higher (if available at all; swift could be a deal breaker, it's just a thought).
I'm not sure how I feel about how many SLA summons can be active at any one time or not. One active at a time may be fine, or again, you could force a summoner to burn extra uses per day to have multiples active. FOr example, if you've got one active, a second requires more energies, so adds +1 use and, again, diminishes the highest level summon spell the summoner can pull off.
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This is just an off the top of my head idea. The Eidolon seems to have taken too much of the focus for the class, in my mind. They should be good at summoning monsters as well.
There could be plenty of tweaks to it, this just seems like it might keep the summoner flavor going rather than just the "Eidolon pet owner" class.
I was thinking it might be better if what they did is make a list of summon-able creatures... and you choose one and then summon that one creature... and is could still level up and all that, but the idea that the summoner makes it look howe he/she wants makes me think you are going to see a lot of absurd Eidolons.
if there was a fixed list and then a selection of evolutions to add to it ... that would be better and would overshadow the summoner less.
My group has been testing a low level summoner in our mix, and I've got a few observations or ideas.
I feel the summoner should be 1/2 BAB; their focus seems to be to use their eidolon or summoned critters to fight. Having mid grade BAB doesn't really seem appropriate at all. In fact, it's just weird that they were given a mid grade BAB since their focus is to keep themselves out of combat and use minions at all costs. I mean, that seems to be the very definition of a summoner.
I have to disagree about the BaB. The summoner has lots of great buffs, and with the right selection of feats and stats can hold his own just fine in combat. In fact its an important part of the class for people who want the focus to be on the summoner more then the eidolon, which there are aparently many of. There is no reason why you HAVE to hide behind your summons. You can just as easily plant a summon down, buff it yourself and your eidolon (haste comes to mind here) and go in and fight right next to them.
I suppose, although I'd rather see their summoning class feature buffed than retain a mid level BAB.
Mid BAB Still doesn't seem to fit to me. It seems like a summoner ought to multiclass if they want to be better in combat themselves.
I personally dont like the idea of multiclassing to acheive something but that is a whole other can of worms (see half a dozen threads on 'fighter mage' types). But is clear that this was put there intentionally, along with the light armor, to mirror the bard.
I was thinking it might be better if what they did is make a list of summon-able creatures... and you choose one and then summon that one creature... and is could still level up and all that, but the idea that the summoner makes it look howe he/she wants makes me think you are going to see a lot of absurd Eidolons.
if there was a fixed list and then a selection of evolutions to add to it ... that would be better and would overshadow the summoner less.
this is the worst idea, i love the eidolon being what ever floats out of the players head, it makes it unique. if it's just a list, you better do a lot to make it worth not getting 9th level spells, cuz i could build a pretty damn good druid summoner.
My group has been testing a low level summoner in our mix, and I've got a few observations or ideas.
I feel the summoner should be 1/2 BAB; their focus seems to be to use their eidolon or summoned critters to fight. Having mid grade BAB doesn't really seem appropriate at all. In fact, it's just weird that they were given a mid grade BAB since their focus is to keep themselves out of combat and use minions at all costs. I mean, that seems to be the very definition of a summoner.
Their SLA to summon critters should stay somewhat buffed. At the least it should keep the 1 minute per level duration, although I do have an alternative below.
The tweaks to the Eidolon seem pretty good, so I don't really have any suggestions there. But again, the summoner should be somewhat weak. They should keep their minions close to protect themselves. This balances out the strength and versatility of the Eidolon by making a vulnerable point and forcing the summoner to sort of think tactically and keep themselves safe.
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A possible improvement I had considered was that the summoner could burn extra uses of their SLA to improve the summon ability. The available improvements could be boosted at certain level intervals.
the only way to justify giving them the lower bab, ect would be to give them full spellcasting.
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Understood. I just don't think that a summoner should be built along the lines of a bard, but rather more of a mage type.
A class like the alchemist fits the mid BAB simply because they have to get up close and personal and fling their potions and bombs and such, so it makes sense for them.
There's nothing in the summoner class abilities that are even remotely linked to BAB or being able to hit better or use armor; it's all about getting other critters to do it for you. I could accept light armor for a summoner, since their style of magic is more innate and less strict (but also less versatile) than a sorcerer or wizard.
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this is the worst idea, i love the eidolon being what ever floats out of the players head, it makes it unique. if it's just a list, you better do a lot to make it worth not getting 9th level spells, cuz i could build a pretty damn good druid summoner.I was thinking it might be better if what they did is make a list of summon-able creatures... and you choose one and then summon that one creature... and is could still level up and all that, but the idea that the summoner makes it look howe he/she wants makes me think you are going to see a lot of absurd Eidolons.
if there was a fixed list and then a selection of evolutions to add to it ... that would be better and would overshadow the summoner less.
Yeah, I'm not keen on that list idea at all either.
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the only way to justify giving them the lower bab, ect would be to give them full spellcasting.My group has been testing a low level summoner in our mix, and I've got a few observations or ideas.
I feel the summoner should be 1/2 BAB; their focus seems to be to use their eidolon or summoned critters to fight. Having mid grade BAB doesn't really seem appropriate at all. In fact, it's just weird that they were given a mid grade BAB since their focus is to keep themselves out of combat and use minions at all costs. I mean, that seems to be the very definition of a summoner.
Their SLA to summon critters should stay somewhat buffed. At the least it should keep the 1 minute per level duration, although I do have an alternative below.
The tweaks to the Eidolon seem pretty good, so I don't really have any suggestions there. But again, the summoner should be somewhat weak. They should keep their minions close to protect themselves. This balances out the strength and versatility of the Eidolon by making a vulnerable point and forcing the summoner to sort of think tactically and keep themselves safe.
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A possible improvement I had considered was that the summoner could burn extra uses of their SLA to improve the summon ability. The available improvements could be boosted at certain level intervals.
Perhaps, although I think keeping their summon SLA stronger would justify it and fit the concept of the class better (well, my concept anyway, other people certainly seem to have different takes on it, which is cool).
I'd like to see the SLA increase in uses per day by level, and give them the extra options to enhance the duration or speed of the summon as I outlined in my first post.
Understood. I just don't think that a summoner should be built along the lines of a bard, but rather more of a mage type.
A class like the alchemist fits the mid BAB simply because they have to get up close and personal and fling their potions and bombs and such, so it makes sense for them.
There's nothing in the summoner class abilities that are even remotely linked to BAB or being able to hit better or use armor; it's all about getting other critters to do it for you. I could accept light armor for a summoner, since their style of magic is more innate and less strict (but also less versatile) than a sorcerer or wizard.
I kinda like them being able to fight, right now i've got a character that fights with the eidolon very well, she can't keep up with a fighter alone, but her and the eidolon together, can.
personally the only thing i'd change is to give the summoner her own evolution points, still have it max out a 6 but spread it out a little and require that the eidolon have the evolution as a pre-req, also the evolutions would only be on when the eidolon was present. that way the summoner starts to look more and more like the eidolon.
Understood. I just don't think that a summoner should be built along the lines of a bard, but rather more of a mage type.
A class like the alchemist fits the mid BAB simply because they have to get up close and personal and fling their potions and bombs and such, so it makes sense for them.
There's nothing in the summoner class abilities that are even remotely linked to BAB or being able to hit better or use armor; it's all about getting other critters to do it for you. I could accept light armor for a summoner, since their style of magic is more innate and less strict (but also less versatile) than a sorcerer or wizard.
I besides his solid list of buff spells, shield ally, greater shield ally, aspect, and greater aspect all imply that there is reason for the summoner to be up near the front with his eidolon. Shield ally requires you to be in reach of your big stompy monster. Sure you can be behind him, but you can just as easily be next to him attacking also. And aspect and greater aspect can be used to enhance combat abilities as well. Not to mention all of your buffs work just fine on you in addition to on your summons and eidolon.
And certainly the capstone Twin Eidolon indicates that the final vision of the class also involves their BaB.
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Understood. I just don't think that a summoner should be built along the lines of a bard, but rather more of a mage type.
A class like the alchemist fits the mid BAB simply because they have to get up close and personal and fling their potions and bombs and such, so it makes sense for them.
There's nothing in the summoner class abilities that are even remotely linked to BAB or being able to hit better or use armor; it's all about getting other critters to do it for you. I could accept light armor for a summoner, since their style of magic is more innate and less strict (but also less versatile) than a sorcerer or wizard.
I besides his solid list of buff spells, shield ally, greater shield ally, aspect, and greater aspect all imply that there is reason for the summoner to be up near the front with his eidolon. Shield ally requires you to be in reach of your big stompy monster. Sure you can be behind him, but you can just as easily be next to him attacking also. And aspect and greater aspect can be used to enhance combat abilities as well. Not to mention all of your buffs work just fine on you in addition to on your summons and eidolon.
And certainly the capstone Twin Eidolon indicates that the final vision of the class also involves their BaB.
Hmm, yeah, the 20th level ability does indicate that. Good point. I see shield ally as more of the Eidolon protecting his owner/summoner than something that would prompt the summoner to wade into the front lines.
Ok, I'm less committed to the 1/2 BAB now that I've had a chance to discuss it a bit.
What about the SLA though? How do you feel about modifying the ability and giving it more options based on a mechanic similar to a ki pool or stunning fist use type feature?
That way it doesn't start off overpowered, but gives the summoner some greater versatility later on and significantly distinguishes them from conjurers as being, well, summoners.
Yeah, I'm not keen on that list idea at all either.this is the worst idea, i love the eidolon being what ever floats out of the players head, it makes it unique. if it's just a list, you better do a lot to make it worth not getting 9th level spells, cuz i could build a pretty damn good druid summoner.I was thinking it might be better if what they did is make a list of summon-able creatures... and you choose one and then summon that one creature... and is could still level up and all that, but the idea that the summoner makes it look howe he/she wants makes me think you are going to see a lot of absurd Eidolons.
if there was a fixed list and then a selection of evolutions to add to it ... that would be better and would overshadow the summoner less.
the list is not really a good solution ... as you point out it would detract from the imagination of the player. but I was trying to give some alternative to the curent system that everyone keeps say overshadows the caster.
to be honest i have not played the class... but think it is a good class as presented... but then I am not one of those player that needs to do 150 points of damage by third level.
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It looks like I have at least our DM (who's the only one who really matters, quite frankly) behind the idea of a summoning "pool" similar to the ki pool to summon critters, so we may wind up testing a version of that class out in our game to see if it works or not.
We probably won't have a chance to play till next year though :(