From the days of 2nd Edition, we GM’s have faced the same dilemma: As soon as the party finishes killing that wyvern, monstrous spider or giant scorpion some player is going to ask. “Can I cut out the poison gland and get some of the monster’s poison?”
If there were ever a class that was suited to that job, the Alchemist would be it! So how about some rules to help us poor GM’s satisfy those player’s desires. I think this would make an awesome sidebar to include with the Alchemist’s description.
What skill would one use to harvest poison from a fallen monster?
What would the DC be to successfully do it?
If you are successful, how much poison do you get?
If you fail, what are the consequences?
Is the poison usable directly from the monster or must it be refined before it can be applied to a weapon?
With all the poisoning abilities this character has, I was surprised to find it had no means of making its own poison.
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From the days of 2nd Edition, we GM’s have faced the same dilemma: As soon as the party finishes killing that wyvern, monstrous spider or giant scorpion some player is going to ask. “Can I cut out the poison gland and get some of the monster’s poison?”
If there were ever a class that was suited to that job, the Alchemist would be it! So how about some rules to help us poor GM’s satisfy those player’s desires. I think this would make an awesome sidebar to include with the Alchemist’s description.
What skill would one use to harvest poison from a fallen monster?
What would the DC be to successfully do it?
If you are successful, how much poison do you get?
If you fail, what are the consequences?
Is the poison usable directly from the monster or must it be refined before it can be applied to a weapon?
With all the poisoning abilities this character has, I was surprised to find it had no means of making its own poison.
Interesting questions. I came up with a mechanic of sorts some time ago, as my players have an habit of cutting and chopping choice bits from fallen creatures. ;-P
Survival is the skill used to harvest poison (or to skin an animal, clean the carcass, etc.); DC is related to the original poison DC and the type of creature: animals DC +1, vermin DC +2, magical beasts DC +3, dragons DC +4, aberrations DC +5.
The base line is the more difference there is between the creature and a reptilian/mammalian "normal" creature, the more it's difficult to harvest any useful part from its corpse.
If the check is succesful, a single dose is collected. If the check beats the DC by 5 or more points, two doses; if the check beats the DC by 10 or more points, three doses. No more than three doses.
If the check fails, nothing could be harvested. In case of a natural 1, the harvester accidentally exposed himself to the poison, usual saving thow, etc.
An harvested poison is immediately usuable on a weapon (or else) with its original DC, and holds for 10 minutes. An unused harvested poison degrades the original DC by 1 point per hour, until it's put into an alchemical holder - a kind of sterilized container. At this point, the poison degrades its original DC by 1 point per day. When a poison strenght reaches DC 0, it's irrimediably ruined.
The poison can be refined (Craft: Alchemy or Craft: Poisonmaking) with a DC equal to the harvesting one. The process restores the original DC, gives the poison an almost unlimited "useful life" till it's stored appropriately, and a 1 hour of efficiency when it's placed on a weapon (or used elsewhere).
The alchemist could use more skill checks to further refine poisons, improving DC, duration, changing the way it works (eg. from wound to gaseous), and more.
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Craft (Poison) is part of Craft (Alchemy) innit?
This is correct, it's a change from 3.5.
Page 558 of the Rulebook:
Poisons can be made using Craft (alchemy). The DC to make a poison is equal to its Fortitude save DC. Rolling a natural 1 on a Craft skill check while making a poison exposes the crafter to the poison. Crafters with the poison use class feature do not risk poisoning themselves when using Craft to make poison.
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I'd frankly just be happy with the alchemist getting the same bonuses to Craft (poison) as he gets to Craft (alchemy), in both bonus and speed. Right now a very good alchemist takes like 6 weeks to make a DC 12 poison, something like that.
Poisons, alchemical items, and I guess gems are the most inefficient things to make with the crafting system. I actually have a sneaky suspicion that the time it takes to make a, say, 25,000 gp diamond (for use with wish spells) actually costs the jeweler more in living expenses than 12,500 gp. I need to run the numbers on that, though.
Not sure where you're getting the numbers from... a Level 1 expert with 14 int can make on average almost 2 DC 12 poisons worth 100gp a week (16*12=192 GP). Make those a little higher for a an alchemist of slightly higher level (At least high enough to use poisons); 2 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 Intelligence + 2 Class ability = +10, can make slightly more than 2 per week. Or if they felt risky they could increase the DC to 22 and do close to 5 per week.
Interesting questions. I came up with a mechanic of sorts some time ago, as my players have an habit of cutting and chopping choice bits from fallen creatures. ;-P
Survival is the skill used to harvest poison (or to skin an animal, clean the carcass, etc.); DC is related to the original poison DC and the type of creature: animals DC +1, vermin DC +2, magical beasts DC +3, dragons DC +4, aberrations DC +5.
The base line is the more difference there is between the creature and a reptilian/mammalian "normal" creature, the more it's difficult to harvest any useful part from its corpse.If the check is succesful, a single dose is collected. If the check beats the DC by 5 or more points, two doses; if the check beats the DC by 10 or more points, three doses. No more than three doses.
If the check fails, nothing could be harvested. In case of a natural 1, the harvester accidentally exposed himself to the poison, usual saving thow, etc.An harvested poison is immediately usuable on a weapon (or else) with its original DC, and holds for 10...
A very good home brew solution! It would make sense that Survival would be the skill used for this, as I could see no other reason it would be a class skill for an Alchemist.
I had a similar notion of setting the DC and relating it to the poison's DC. I hadn't thought of the bonus for creature type, but it was an excellent idea, so I hope you don't mind that I am going to shamelessly steal it.
I wouldnt mind some solidified poison harvesting rules. After all someone had to go in there and get it, no sense in not allowing a pc to do it if he has the skills.
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A very good home brew solution! It would make sense that Survival would be the skill used for this, as I could see no other reason it would be a class skill for an Alchemist.
I had a similar notion of setting the DC and relating it to the poison's DC. I hadn't thought of the bonus for creature type, but it was an excellent idea, so I hope you don't mind that I am going to shamelessly steal it.
Go for it! :D
I recently added some more details, inspired by (as in: "stolen straight from") Fantasycraft.
- Exotic: antitoxins are less efficient (-2 to -4 to the saving thow bonus provided), and Heal checks are at -2 for each extra 5 points in the Craft check DC.
- Fast-acting: this is useful for contact and ingested poisons; the onset time is decreased by 1/2 for each 5 points of extra DC in the Craft check.
- Persistent: the duration of the effect adds half its original value for each extra 5 points in the Craft check DC (essentially duplicating the multiple doses mechanic).
It's kind-of ridiculous how much time making things takes, just think about a set of full-plate armor (takes almost 41 weeks at the base DC of 19, and base success), or a masterwork weapon (masterwork component takes 7.5 weeks at base DC and results of 20).
That isn't remotely ridiculous. It's actually fairly accurate. Making full plate took forever.
This "poisonmaking" homebrew system is quite good in its simplicity. Those who desire a thorough but complex system might want to check out "Poisoncraft" by Blue Devil Games. Mighty good stuff in there! Though the system as written is a bit taxing, it is supercharged with options and a healthy dose (pardon the pun) of flavor.
Don't forget that the alchemist gets a reduction in crafting time for free.
I usually treat the poisonous monster as raw materials... somewhere, probably Song and Silence, expanded Craft (poison) a bit, and added that raw materials can cost more or less than 1/3 of cost depending on availability of raw materials. Have the monster provide free (or dramatically reduced) cost raw materials for a number of does = to the size, with a Craft (poison) or Knowledge or survival check to extract if you want.
I've always seen the cost to be for stabilizers to keep the poison from breaking down before you use it. Getting the poison to last longer than an hour is what takes the extra skill and materials (in my mind).