Even at 12th level (and after three rounds), a +6 sacred bonus on damage rolls isn't that impressive. Although the inquisitor can add that damage to all his attack rolls, it's still pretty weak--assuming the inquisitor is getting four attacks (BAB, haste, Rapid Shot), that's only an additional +24 damage (and that's assuming that they all hit).
Compare that to...
Fighters: +14 damage per swing each round (Power Attack + Weapon Training).
Rogues: +7d6 (average 24.5 average damage per swing).
Barbarians: +15 damage per swing each round (Power Attack + raging).
Paladins: +12 or +24 damage per attack (smiting).
Obviously, the inquisitor is a little weak in the damage department, especially since the judgments build up in strength over time. My recommendation?
Damage begins at +2/+4/+6. At 8th level, it becomes +4/+6/+8. At 16th level, it becomes +6/+8/+10.
Alternatively, the damage bonus could be boosted against evil foes (like the paladin's smite).
Again, let's compare the damage potential of other classes at 20th level with this proposed damage boost.
Inquisitors: +10 damage per attack (third round of combat).
Fighters: +22 damage per attack.
Rogues: +10d6 damage per attack (average 35).
Barbarians: +22 damage per attack.
Paladins: +20 or +40 damage per attack.
Even with that suggested boost, the inquisitor would do less damage per attack than the other classes. However, I purposely am suggesting that the inquisitor do less individual damage per attack because the inquisitor doesn't have to take an attack penalty to get bonus damage. (And paladins are just crazy when it comes to damage against demons.)
Now, some of you might think that it's unfair that I'm letting the fighter and barbarian use Power Attack while not allowing the inquisitor to do so. My reasoning is simple:
1. The inquisitor has a weaker attack bonus. He can't afford to sacrifice accuracy.
2. The inquisitor receives less benefit from the feat due to his lowered BAB.
3. The inquisitor has more multiple ability dependency, meaning he is less likely to have a high Strength than the other classes.
Thoughts?
|
Actually, I find the Inquisitor to be very balanced versus the other classes:
An inquisitor is generally/might going to have the following buffs at high level:
Judgement+Bane+Divine Power+Power Attack =
6+4+4d6 (14) +6+8=38
Now I know you might not want to count spells as a buff, but I think that portion fully equals the classes out. Remember this also doesn't count Righteous Might or other buff spells.
Are you aware that at 5th level inquisitors get to add bane to their weapons for inquisitor level/ day? That gives them an additional +2 to hit and 2d6 damage per attack. They can also take the good domain to get holy multiple times per day at 8th level. That gives them 2d6 bonus damage per attack against the creature type of their choice (determined as a swift action) and an additional 2d6 against evil enemies.
You say they can't afford to sacrifice accuracy but they can also use justice to give them a +1-+3 bonus on attacks which means they are definitely ahead of the rogue.
Likewise they can take outflank and precise strike to get +4 for flanking instead of +2 and an additional +1d6 precision damage per attack. And they can retrain these feats as a standard action.
As for the fighters/ barbarians/ paladins... aren't they supposed to be the hard hitters in the game? Shouldn't they hit harder than the 3/4 spellcasting Inquisitor?
I don't think it's as clear a case as you are suggesting.
The damage judgment is better than what Fighters get. Once they get the ability to use two Judgments at once, the combo of Destruction and Justice Judgments are superior to the Fighter's Weapon Training (+3 to hit +3 to damage vs +1 to hit +1 to damage at level 8; at level 20, it's +3/+6 vs +4/+4).
EDIT: And Dennis is right, they get to apply anything bane to their weapons pretty much at will, plus all the tactical feat stuff.
You guys raise a valid point. Overall, the inquisitor isn't going to be doing too low of damage. But ET wasn't talking about the overall damage, he was just talking about the damage of that ability.
And, if you compare the damage ability to what the other Judgement abilities can do, it's pretty underwhelming. No one's going to take 2-6 damage when they can have 2-6 to hit, 2-6 to ac and 1-3 to saves. Sure, they don't HAVE to use the damage ability, but it seems silly to waste book space on something that probably won't get used.
what if it went from 1d6 to 3d6, and got a 1d6 boost at ten (making it range from 2d6 to 4d6), or it got a third advancement at level 15, making the damage go from 3-9.
In terms of the bane ability, it feels too rangery, and I'd much rather sacrifice a magic item enhancement to boost the core bread-and-butter ability of the class. Wouldn't you?
From the class description: "Greater Bane (Su): At 12th level, whenever the inquisitor uses her bane ability, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the selected type increases to 4d6."
Same: "Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 14th level, the inquisitor learns
to take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself.
Whenever the inquisitor scores a critical hit, she ignores
any damage reduction the target might have. In addition, if
the target has regeneration, the creature loses regeneration
on the round following the critical hit and can die normally
during that round (if the creature’s regeneration can be
bypassed). Finally, if the inquisitor deals energy damage to
a creature with vulnerability to that energy type, she deals
+1 point of damage per die rolled."
Fighters, even with higher level feats cannot do this. Add in spells of rightous might and divine power and this creates one serious self-contained damage class. At 14th level, this class is a clear winner. The bane weapon class ability trumps the paladin's divine bond. Plus the flexability to be back-up healer and team support.
This class will beat out paladins in the WTF!?!? damage output.
The damage judgment is better than what Fighters get. Once they get the ability to use two Judgments at once, the combo of Destruction and Justice Judgments are superior to the Fighter's Weapon Training (+3 to hit +3 to damage vs +1 to hit +1 to damage at level 8; at level 20, it's +3/+6 vs +4/+4).
Actually, Zurai, the +4/+4 is better because the additional 5% chance to hit is good at any level whereas the additional +2 damage that the destruction judgment grants is piddly. So, no, the inquisitor's destruction judgment isn't as good as the fighter's weapon training.
Are you aware that at 5th level inquisitors get to add bane to their weapons for inquisitor level/ day?
Are you aware that two minutes of a bane effect--at level 20--is less good than a permanent +22 damage per attack?
As for the fighters/ barbarians/ paladins... aren't they supposed to be the hard hitters in the game? Shouldn't they hit harder than the 3/4 spellcasting Inquisitor?
Yes, they should hit harder. Which is why I advised changes to the destruction judgment that do less damage than the fighter, paladin, and barbarian.
(Besides, rogues have 3/4 BAB, and they hit pretty darn hard.)
Judgement+Bane+Divine Power+Power Attack =
6+4+4d6 (14) +6+8=38
Compare the amount of resources that the inquisitor is using to those of the other classes. And this is on the third round of combat which I can't stress enough. Three rounds into combat is huge. Most combat lasts for fewer than 10 rounds.
No one's going to take 2-6 damage when they can have 2-6 to hit, 2-6 to ac and 1-3 to saves.
They can't get 2-6 to hit. The to hit bonus caps at +3. Critical confirmation is what doubles for the Justice Judgment.
In terms of the bane ability, it feels too rangery, and I'd much rather sacrifice a magic item enhancement to boost the core bread-and-butter ability of the class. Wouldn't you?
The Bane ability is a core ability of the class. They even get an upgrade to it later on.
Actually, Zurai, the +4/+4 is better because the additional 5% chance to hit is good at any level whereas the additional +2 damage that the destruction judgment grants is piddly.
If you'd bothered to read before you responded... or compare the two classes...
Fighters don't get +4 damage from Weapon Training until level 17. Inquisitors get +6 damage from Judgment of Destruction at level 10 (and +3 damage at level 1). At level 8, when Inquisitors get the ability to apply two Judgments at once, they get +3 to hit and +3 to damage, while Fighters only get +1 to hit and +1 to damage.
This class will beat out paladins in the WTF!?!? damage output.
Uh...I'm not sure that's true.
Paladin: I get +40 damage against evil outsiders, undead, and evil dragons. I get +20 damage against evil creatures. On a full attack, I can do up to 10d6 + 290 damage, and that's assuming no critical hits or any other abilities that increase damage (such as Spirited Charge).
Inquisitor: I can do +6 damage on the third round of combat! On a full attack, I can do up to 8d6 + 30 damage.
Inquisitors get +6 damage from Judgment of Destruction at level 10 (and +3 damage at level 1).
Which just means that they get a damage boost at 10th level and then their damage stays the same as enemies get more and more hit points. That's my entire point.
At level 8, when Inquisitors get the ability to apply two Judgments at once, they get +3 to hit and +3 to damage, while Fighters only get +1 to hit and +1 to damage.
Assuming that they choose the judgment that grants a bonus on attack rolls. Fighters get that bonus automatically.
Inquisitors get +6 damage from Judgment of Destruction at level 10 (and +3 damage at level 1).Which just means that they get a damage boost at 10th level and then their damage stays the same as enemies get more and more hit points. That's my entire point.
At level 8, when Inquisitors get the ability to apply two Judgments at once, they get +3 to hit and +3 to damage, while Fighters only get +1 to hit and +1 to damage.Assuming that they choose the judgment that grants a bonus on attack rolls. Fighters get that bonus automatically.
So, in other words, you're in favor of weakening an ability so that it scales more smoothly, and in favor of not being able to choose which judgments you take. Cool. I'll pass.
/snark
Look at what you're saying. I'm saying, "Inquisitors are OK because their direct combat Judgments start out better than fighters and end up similar", and you're responding to that with "Fighters abilities start out lower and they don't get to choose different ones if they want!". The strong implication is that you're disagreeing with me because of the reasons you state, but the reasons you state are disadvantages of the Fighter compared to the Inquisitor.
Again, using your own interpretation that +1 to hit > +2 to damage, Inquisitors get better damage-increasing class abilities from level 1 to level 17, which is about 150% of the normal life span of a character.
While smite evil has some great uses against iconic enemies, all inquisitor crit attacks ignore DR/- AND get +4d6 from bane and +2d6 from holy; their non-judgement abilities. So, judgement dealing less damage is offset by their other, better, damaging abilites. Judgement offers flexability at the cost of focus. Improved Bane and Exploit Weakness do one thing: kill things.
Constructs and oozes destroy paladins as they do not (almost always) get to smite 'em. Inquisitor will deal massive damage to any type of creature. As anyone who played RPGA Living Greyhawk can recount, non-evil foes abound. Plus, they have better divination spells than paladins so the class has a better chance of being prepaired through pre-combat spell casting to know which enemies it will face. Additionally, the +wis to knowledge skills encourages Inquisitors to be walking encyclopedias of every monster, which takes no action. Paladins are stuck wasting standard or move actions to determine if the abberation is neutral or evil before smiting.
So, while paladin versus dragon, undead, or outsider (evil) may be tough to beat, inquisitor versus anything is really tough to beat. I hate math but the class adds a lot. While the paladin has some clear advantages against certain foes, the halmark of power (as the changes made for 4th ed DnD reveals) is flexability. The inquisitor has this in spades. So the judgement by itself is weak, the judgement does not stand alone.
Edit: spelling and clearity
|
|
Compare the amount of resources that the inquisitor is using to those of the other classes. And this is on the third round of combat which I can't stress enough. Three rounds into combat is huge. Most combat lasts for fewer than 10 rounds.Judgement+Bane+Divine Power+Power Attack =
6+4+4d6 (14) +6+8=38
Well, actually the above example is only one feat, one spell, and class abilities. Bane is for enough levels per day at 20th level (which is the level that you mentioned, although I really don't like comparing damage at 20th level and counting things as even). Also if what you are concerned about, at level 20 the Inquisitor can have the damage judge be maximum in the first round.
If we really wanted to go higher we could stack on the Precise Striking feat (+1d6 damage), Destruction domain ability (+10 morale damage and/or auto crit), and Righteous Might (+2 damage). Total: 53. Notes that this isn't taking into account any enhancement bonuses or strength bonuses (other than Righteous Might). Yes, this takes some more resources, but at top level (20), the resources taken really isn't that extensive.
So, in other words, you're in favor of weakening an ability so that it scales more smoothly, and in favor of not being able to choose which judgments you take. Cool. I'll pass.
I know that you generally have difficulty doing math, Zurai, but allow me to explain to you a very basic concept: bigger numbers are more than smaller numbers. +10 damage > +6 damage. Making an ability stronger is not weakening it.
Your acceptance of the weak destruction judgment is because the inquisitor has to use his second judgment to gain a bonus on attack rolls. By shoehorning him into that role, you are working against the interests of the class. Please stop.
So, in other words, you're in favor of weakening an ability so that it scales more smoothly, and in favor of not being able to choose which judgments you take. Cool. I'll pass.I know that you generally have difficulty doing math, Zurai, but allow me to explain to you a very basic concept: bigger numbers are more than smaller numbers. +10 damage > +6 damage. Making an ability stronger is not weakening it.
Your acceptance of the weak destruction judgment is because the inquisitor has to use his second judgment to gain a bonus on attack rolls. By shoehorning him into that role, you are working against the interests of the class. Please stop.
Care to respond to the actual, explicitly pointed out, reasoned text of my post, rather than making personal attacks based on the small portion of my post that I again explicitly pointed out wasn't meant to be taken seriously?
I'm arguing mathematics. I don't know what you're arguing.
+10 damage > +6 damage. It's that simple.
I'm arguing mathematics. I don't know what you're arguing.
+10 damage > +6 damage. It's that simple.
Well, let me respond with some basic math, then. Since I've already said all this, however, I'll just quote myself:
Look at what you're saying. I'm saying, "Inquisitors are OK because their direct combat Judgments start out better than fighters and end up similar", and you're responding to that with "Fighters abilities start out lower and they don't get to choose different ones if they want!". The strong implication is that you're disagreeing with me because of the reasons you state, but the reasons you state are disadvantages of the Fighter compared to the Inquisitor.
Again, using your own interpretation that +1 to hit > +2 to damage, Inquisitors get better damage-increasing class abilities from level 1 to level 17, which is about 150% of the normal life span of a character.
I guess I can resummarize again. My argument is that Judgments are more powerful than Weapon Training, and yet no one complains that Fighters don't get enough damage. Your counter-argument to my "Judgments are stronger than Weapon Training" has so far been "Weapon Training is weaker than Judgment until level 17, but it scales so it's better! Oh, and Fighters don't get a choice of class abilities, so they're obviously superior to Inquisitors who can choose all kinds of different things for their Judgments!". That's just nonsensical.
More directly on-subject, you're ignoring the Inquisitor's buffs. They get divine power (+6 luck bonus to hit and to damage and a haste attack) and righteous might (+4 size to strength, weapons increase by a size category), both of which are self-only buffs. Divine power in particular is an extremely potent buff.
Actually, judgments aren't more powerful than weapon training. Again, the fighter automatically gains the +4/+4, and it's on all the time. The inquisitor has to burn a judgment to do that, and even then he is shoehorned into using two specific judgments to approach the fighter's abilities.
Furthermore, the fighter does more damage overall with Power Attack because of his heightened attack bonus. Even at level 8, the fighter is doing +10 damage per hit, assuming he's using Power Attack. The inquisitor is getting a +1/+1 bonus on his rolls. Compare their damage potential based on rounds (we'll ignore miscellaneous bonuses here):
Round 1
Fighter: 4d6 + 20.
Inquisitor: 4d6 + 2.
Round 2
Fighter: 4d6 + 20.
Inquisitor: 4d6 + 4.
Round 3
Fighter: 4d6 + 20.
Inquisitor: 4d6 + 6.
Round 4
Fighter: 4d6 + 20.
Inquisitor: 4d6 + 6.
Now, let's run this with actual numbers. At level 8, we'll assume that the fighter has an attack bonus of +16 (8 BAB + 4 Strength + 2 Weapon Training + 2 magic item). Using Power Attack, he has a +13 bonus on attack rolls, and his weapon damage is going to be 2d6 + 19, or 26 average.
The inquisitor, on the other hand, has a generous attack bonus of +11 (6 BAB + 3 Strength + 2 magic item). With his judgment active, his damage is going to be 2d6 + 7, or 14.5 average. We'll factor in his judgments in a second.
Let's pit both of these fellows against a generic CR 6 monster. According to the PRPG rules, average AC for a CR 6 monster is 19.
Thus, the fighter hits on a roll of 6 for his first attack and a roll of 11 for his second attack (75%/50% chance to hit). Average damage per round: 33.75.
The inquisitor activates his judgment and attacks. With his attack bonus increased, the inquisitor hits on a 7 with his first attack and a 12 with his second attack (70%/45% chance to hit). Average damage in the first round: 16.5.
The second round, the inquisitor does an average of 19.4 damage. In the third round, the inquisitor does an average of 22.3 damage.
Even by the third round, you can see that the fighter is leading the inquisitor in terms of damage dealt. And the fighter is universally looked down upon as being a weak class, even in Pathfinder. So, right now, the inquisitor does less damage in a round than one of the weaker classes.
More directly on-subject, you're ignoring the Inquisitor's buffs. They get divine power (+6 luck bonus to hit and to damage and a haste attack) and righteous might (+4 size to strength, weapons increase by a size category), both of which are self-only buffs. Divine power in particular is an extremely potent buff.
So how many rounds does the inquisitor plan on spending to buff himself? And how many of his resources are being taken up by casting those buffs?
Bane's damage increase per attack is +2 +2d6. Average is +9. After 14th, it's +16 on all attacks. Plus there's the +2 extra attack bonus. Now, by level 15 to 18, if someone wanted, they could have a +5 enhancement bonus out of the +10 total. Alternatively, the inquisitor could have a +10 weapon with +3 enhancement and have vorpal, vicious, and spell storing. Add in the domain holy and the weapon's total enhancement is effectively +14 plus the extra 2d6 from improved bane. The bane would make the weapon function as a +5 enhacement weapon at all times.
To answer the original post: the ability would be too low if the inquisitor did not have the other damage increases. Overall it is just fine. A cautious monster hunter uses its divinations to anticipate and buff before combat as much as possible.
Edit: spelling
Enchanter Tom, you forgot Bane damage in the above post. This ability can be considered auto use on any slightly dangerious foe.
As far as fighter versus spell caster prep time, the fighter is always ready to fight by putting on gear. This is the d20 trade off for being a spell caster. If the inquisitor was not a spell caster, than the comparison would be apt. But your hypothetical misses the importance of the structural dialectic the melee combat caster must endure: use limited class abilities now or wait for tougher foes. Also, fighters have no limited abilities. Inquisitors have diminishing returns on damage and general usefulness. A more apt comparison might be paladin but again, the paladin is less spell caster and more melee than the inquisitor. The cleric is more caster but can be a powerful melee combantant with proper prep work.
Fighters have high constant damage potential. That is their single benefit over every other class. Every other one has to use increasingly limited resources to keep up with the fighter. Except two things: fighters can never fly and cannot heal themselves instantly.
Edit: spelling
Enchanter Tom, you forgot Bane damage in the above post. This ability can be considered auto use on any slightly dangerious foe.
As far as fighter versus spell caster prep time, the fighter is always ready to fight by putting on gear. This is the d20 trade off for being a spell caster. If the inquisitor was not a spell caster, than the comparison would be apt. But your hypothetical misses the importance of the structural dialectic the melee combat caster must endure: use limited class abilities now or wait for tougher foes. Also, fighters have no limited abilities. Inquisitors have diminishing returns on damage and general usefulness. A more apt comparison might be paladin but again, the paladin is less spell caster and more melee than the inquisitor. The cleric is more caster but can be a powerful melee combantant with proper prep work.
Fighters have high constant damage potential. That is their single benefit over every other class. Every other one has to use increasingly limited resources to keep up with the fighter. Except two things: fighters can never fly and cannot heal themselves instantly.
Fighters do not have high constant damage potential. They have high damage potential until they run out of their limited resource, hit points, then they have zero damage potential. Ultimately fighters are just as dependent on limited resources in the form of healing as any other class. I suppose a fighter could buy magic to replace that need but even that is expensive and the only 'infinite' healing devices out there (namely ring of regen) have slow healing rates.
Tom pointed out that Bane only lasts 20 rounds then runs out... how many rounds of combat can a typical fighter last against a CR appropriate enemy without some other class backing him up with healing?
This whole concept that fighters don't have to deal with limited resources is a myth because they outsource the burden to other classes.
They have high damage potential until they run out of their limited resource, hit points, then they have zero damage potential.
So does every other class ever.
They have high damage potential until they run out of their limited resource, hit points, then they have zero damage potential.So does every other class ever.
Really... I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing that out.
I'm not sure what your point is.
The comment about resources was a direct comment on class abilities not abilities shared by all characters: hp, fighting until exhausted, dehydration, other limits of the flesh. Discussing fighters as limited in resources because of HPs is to claim that a shared problem all classes have somehow effects fighter more so. I was holding shared limiting returns constant in that line of arguement. Fighters can use every class ability they get all the time. Rogues main dps bump is unlimited but in limited situations, acting as limiter fighters lack. Rangers and paladins have spell casting that runs out. Paladins eventually run out of smites. Barbarians run out of rage points. Fighter bonus feats and armor/weapon training always stays usable, even if the fighter is near death.
After 2-5 combats lasting 4 to 5 rounds apeiece, the fighter class has complete use of all of its options, limited only by gear.
Tom pointed out that Bane only lasts 20 rounds then runs out... how many rounds of combat can a typical fighter last against a CR appropriate enemy without some other class backing him up with healing?
Someone just proved that a level 20 fighter can two round a balor more tahn 50% of the time, without gearing against evil outsiders.
For the record, I love fighters, played 'em to level 20 in 3.0 without the broken book Sword and Fist. I played an RPGA fighter to 10th level. I thought 3.x fighters were a great class.
I also find inquisitors attractive. I like their flexablilty. Its bane ability is obviously a flexible favored enemy. Rangers might be in danger of being over shadowed with the new class.
Edit: spelling
Sorry for the double post.
here is the link about the fighter's damage output and surviving a CR appropriate creature without backup.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/anArcherFighterSGTToIllustrateAPoint
To answer the original post: the ability would be too low if the inquisitor did not have the other damage increases. Overall it is just fine. A cautious monster hunter uses its divinations to anticipate and buff before combat as much as possible.
The thing is, this just doesn't address the point. 2-6 damage is pointless. The ability may as well just be gotten rid of. Nobody capable of mathematics will use it.
No one's going to take 2-6 damage when they can have 2-6 to hit, 2-6 to ac and 1-3 to saves.They can't get 2-6 to hit. The to hit bonus caps at +3. Critical confirmation is what doubles for the Justice Judgment.
Ooops. Misread that. Point still stands though. 1-3 to hit is still far superior to 2-6 damage at level 10.
The Bane ability is a core ability of the class. They even get an upgrade to it later on.
In terms of the bane ability, it feels too rangery, and I'd much rather sacrifice a magic item enhancement to boost the core bread-and-butter ability of the class. Wouldn't you?
I don't know if that's true. In no way is the class built around bane the way it's built around judgment. Judgement is its cool unique mechanic (that and its solo tactics stuff). It actually feels a little sloppy to me to get so many unrelated abilities. And, if it's going to be cleaned up, I'd rather see its boosts get rolled into its big core ability.
|
To answer the original post: the ability would be too low if the inquisitor did not have the other damage increases. Overall it is just fine. A cautious monster hunter uses its divinations to anticipate and buff before combat as much as possible.The thing is, this just doesn't address the point. 2-6 damage is pointless. The ability may as well just be gotten rid of. Nobody capable of mathematics will use it.
2-6 extra points of damage is NOT pointless. The monster has DR/-? More of your base weapon damage gets thru. And if it is DR/-, it will never be that high. Usually 5 points at most. All other DR has some way of getting thru it. Which in that case you use the Smiting judgement and BAne
2-6 extra points of damage is NOT pointless. The monster has DR/-? More of your base weapon damage gets thru. And if it is DR/-, it will never be that high. Usually 5 points at most. All other DR has some way of getting thru it. Which in that case you use the Smiting judgement and BAneTo answer the original post: the ability would be too low if the inquisitor did not have the other damage increases. Overall it is just fine. A cautious monster hunter uses its divinations to anticipate and buff before combat as much as possible.The thing is, this just doesn't address the point. 2-6 damage is pointless. The ability may as well just be gotten rid of. Nobody capable of mathematics will use it.
Yes, it is pointless. Giving the creature DR doesn't make it any less pointless. More damage 'gets through' even on a creature without DR. You're still comparing your damage to their HP, and, at level 10, 2-6 damage/swing still comes up short.
Besides, most things are going to have DR of some type, which they can already overcome far better with another judgment. The point still remains, compared to the other judgements, this is a waste of space.
|
|
To answer the original post: the ability would be too low if the inquisitor did not have the other damage increases. Overall it is just fine. A cautious monster hunter uses its divinations to anticipate and buff before combat as much as possible.The thing is, this just doesn't address the point. 2-6 damage is pointless. The ability may as well just be gotten rid of. Nobody capable of mathematics will use it.
I'm not sure I see where you're coming from, considering that most damage modifiers in the game are small (1-6), it's only when you stack them that the total gets large. Yes, there are a few that are large: Smite (+20/+40) and Power Attack (+6/+12/+18) to name two. However most other's are quite small. Here are some examples:
Weapon Specialization/Greater +2/+4
Arcane Strike +5
Inspire Courage +4
Good Hope (3rd Level bard) +2
Divine Favor +3
Divine Power +6
War Domain +10
Destruction Domain +10
Enhancement Bonus +5
The Judgement seems very on par with many of the other abilities of other classes and feats. The biggest thing to remember is that the Inquisitor has the ability to gain access to more than the fighter; spells and domains. Once you account for this, the judgement needs to be low damage. And always remember, if your character ends up not needing the bonus damage at the time... then you can gain AC, to hit, saves, DR, Energy Resistance, fast healing, overcoming SR, or overcoming DR. The small bonus needs to take into account the versatility of the entire class feature, not just the one bonus.
The difference is that many of those abilities grant a bonus to hit, which has the benefit of increasing your average damage. A flat +6 damage just isn't that great.
If the destruction judgment gave a bonus on attack rolls in addition to damage rolls, it would be worth it.
The difference is that many of those abilities grant a bonus to hit, which has the benefit of increasing your average damage.
... as if bonuses to damage don't?
They increase both your chances to hit and your damage on a successful attack.
Director of Games
|
Hey look.. a thread about damage potential that devolved into a pointless argument.
Thats odd..
Keep it civil folks. The damage scales here are different and comparing them is mostly pointless. The fighter and the inquisitor do different things and have different abilities. Comparing their max damage on a given attack is sort of a waste of time.
This thread is locked.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm not sure I see where you're coming from, considering that most damage modifiers in the game are small (1-6), it's only when you stack them that the total gets large. Yes, there are a few that are large: Smite (+20/+40) and Power Attack (+6/+12/+18) to name two. However most other's are quite small. Here are some examples:
I see your point, Alizor, but I'm not sure that all of those are good analogues, as they add other benefits, and some are low level power. Also, some of them are poor choices. More specifically:
-Weapon Specialization/Greater +2/+4-Such a crappy pair of feats. If you can't find 21 feats better to take, you just aren't looking that hard.
-Arcane Strike +5-Also incredibad. this one even wastes a swift action
-Inspire Courage +4-much more vaunted for its bonus to hit than its bonus to damage. Also goes party-wide, and the bard isn't a slayer of demons.
-Good Hope (3rd Level bard) +2-also provides saving throws and bonuses to hit. The damage alone wouldn't be worth it. And it goes party wide.
-Divine Favor +3-provides a bonus to hit, and is a lowbie spell(I should hope a tenth level judgment is stronger than a 1st level spell.).
The OP did say it was a tad weak, not "inquistors are the gimpiest class in gimptown"
Divine Power +6-Divine favor upgrades for a reason. Also, adds a bonus to hit, and belongs to a class whose theme isn't killing.
War Domain +10-This one's strong enough. Notice that it's a great deal stronger than the Judgment damage power and, unlike Judgment, this isn't even a big part of the cleric's repertoire. This is a minor backup power.
Destruction Domain +10-Same as above
Enhancement Bonus +5-Adds to hit. Also, active all day.
The thing is, I view judgment as being schtick-making, not yet another minor boost to damage. If anything, I'd get rid of other damage abilities to make it stronger. Compare it to other self-only schtick-makers:
Power attack: 12-18 damage, usable at will, doesn't take 3 rounds to get that high.
Sneak attack: 35 damage, usable at will, doesn't take 3 rounds to get that high.
Smite: 20-40 damage, comes with bonuses to defense and to hit, doesn't take 3 rounds to get that high.
Now, I'm aware the inquisitor has more tricks up his sleeve than most of these classes, so I don't think the damage judgment needs a huge boost, it just needs to advance a third or even 4th time (3-9, 4-12) at 15th and 20th level to scale with the hp of monsters the PC will be facing.