I’ve been looking at some of the threads and there are a few people that think the Cavaliers capstone ability is a little weak so i would like to suggest the following.
Deadly charge (ex): On horseback few can match the cavalier’s skill, putting the full weight of horse and rider behind his lance. Once per day when mounted and armed with a lance a cavalier may make a special charge attack. If the attack hits the foe takes the normal damage and must pass a save or die if the save is passed the opponent is staggered for 1d4 rounds.
I’m aware that a number of these abilities already exist I’m just throwing it out there, as for which save should be taken either fortitude or reflex. Personally i favour reflex as I don’t think it matters how tough you are when a lance is driven through anything vital such as brain, heart, spine, ect you either dodge out of the way of the full force of the impact or die.
As for the Cavaliers other abilities id like to see more that stem from the Cavaliers convictions in the fluff it says they dedicate themselves to ideals. While a Paladins powers come from his faith in his god a cavaliers should come from his faith in himself and he should always strive to push himself to be better perhaps abilities that reflect his self confidence would be a good idea.
james taylor 876 wrote: Deadly charge (ex): On horseback few can match the cavalier’s skill, putting the full weight of horse and rider behind his lance. Once per day when mounted and armed with a lance a cavalier may make a special charge attack. If the attack hits the foe takes the normal damage and must pass a save or die if the save is passed the opponent is staggered for 1d4 rounds. Save or die abilities aren't going over well in the Pathfinder world. Perhaps an ability that produces 1d10 points of damage per 10 feet of movement put into the charge (with a fort save for half damage)?
I’d be uneasy about giving out more additional damage dice to the cavalier as he already has the challenge ability aside from that it’s a good idea. A buff for this last ability is required though and if not the save or die ability either maximising the damage dealt or perhaps dealing an automatic critical?
I personally think this class is awesome except for three things. First the AC penalty to ride, which already looks like it’s going to be taken care of in some fashion. Second, the oaths need some work, good concept, just needs some hammering out. And lastly yeah, the cap stone is pretty weak. Stacking or no, a 20th level ability I can duplicate with a feat at 2nd level (with a human, but still, 3rd for everyone else) is pretty weak sauce. I would think some kind of upgrade to the challenge ability would be the best fit. Not a damage upgrade, but something else that improves it like being able to challenge two people per combat, or no longer being flanked during a challenge. Something like that.
I could see your point about a challenge related ability being the top feat as this would give the cavalier something he could always use even when on foot this would grant the class more flexibility as well as always being useful. As i have said above a Cavaliers abilities stem from his self confidence and the challenge reflects that well and is a really character full mechanic so perhaps a range of challenge specific feats are in order culminating in some heroic level 20 ability.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Prince That Howls wrote: I personally think this class is awesome except for three things. First the AC penalty to ride, which already looks like it’s going to be taken care of in some fashion. Second, the oaths need some work, good concept, just needs some hammering out. And lastly yeah, the cap stone is pretty weak. Stacking or no, a 20th level ability I can duplicate with a feat at 2nd level (with a human, but still, 3rd for everyone else) is pretty weak sauce. I would think some kind of upgrade to the challenge ability would be the best fit. Not a damage upgrade, but something else that improves it like being able to challenge two people per combat, or no longer being flanked during a challenge. Something like that. Well, what about the ability to do more than one attack on a charge at 20th?
That might be a little much yeah, but let's face it, cavaliers don't really need any more damage, they're already doing extremely well with challenge, spirited charge, and a lance.
I'd suggest some sort of non-damaging power, perhaps a maneuverability boost, like being able to charge in a path other than a straight line.
I think it would be an anti climax for the class if its last ability wasn’t something that helped it to hideously maul an opponent it just wouldn’t feel right.
As for your idea of a manoeuvrability boost I like it but why give it to the cavalier when his mount could take it instead? Why not has a specific list of feats for the cavaliers mount based on manoeuvrability, speed, check penalties for barding and special bonuses to the mount durability and endurance?
Also another good idea of yours why not let the cavalier pick from special feats that allow him to do all sorts of things in the saddle such as trick riding?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
james taylor 876 wrote: I think it would be an anti climax for the class if its last ability wasn’t something that helped it to hideously maul an opponent it just wouldn’t feel right.
As for your idea of a manoeuvrability boost I like it but why give it to the cavalier when his mount could take it instead? Why not has a specific list of feats for the cavaliers mount based on manoeuvrability, speed, check penalties for barding and special bonuses to the mount durability and endurance?
Also another good idea of yours why not let the cavalier pick from special feats that allow him to do all sorts of things in the saddle such as trick riding?
Mainly I just think that any more dmg at lvl 20 is overkill, since at lvl 12 I've got a halfling cavalier in one game that deals 3d6+48(+4d6 challenge) (+6d6 if we let vital strike work on charges) on a charge attack, oh and he's riding a velociraptor (they get pounce), which means the mount gets it's 5 attacks as well on top of that. I looked at the 20th level ability and felt that unless it just out and out killed something, how much better could it be?
This is a halfling, I'm sure being an Orc riding an elephant would be much worse. (though more situational due to size)
When I see the biggest problem cavaliers have it's pretty much maneuverability:
limited to ground areas large enough to accommodate the mount
limited to straight line movement against a single target at a time
An idea has occurred: let a 20th level cavalier do something like the bounding assault line from 3.5, that is to say let him charge multiple enemies in a single action?
How does that work exactly?
Also I would like to suggest Knightly Paragon as the name of his capstone ability should it fit.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I was thinking something like:
The cavalier may take a full round action to make a mounted charge attack against a single opponent. He may then make another mounted charge attack against a different opponent. Add on more targets if you feel like it.
If you wanted to limit the ability you could limit distances inbetween targets, limit total movement in the round (with a minimum distance inbetween targets), limit the number of times a single target could be attacked by the cavalier, have an increasing penalty to attack, only allow extra attacks until he misses, etc...
Look up the 9th level maneuver for setting sun style from the Book of Nine Swords for a high-level multi-target melee attack.
I don’t know about that the whole focus of the class seems to be mounted combat and 1on1 combat so I don’t think an ability to charge multiple people works for the Cavalier as a class it just doesn’t fit with the flavour.
I like the idea of adding the ability to charge with a large weapon other then a lance (bastard sword or larger). It would be both unique to the cavalier and allow a lot of flexibility depending on his weapon in hand.
True it moves away from the classic mechanic of putting a lot of force behind the small point of a lance, but it does add flair.
Michael Smith 140 wrote: I like the idea of adding the ability to charge with a large weapon other then a lance (bastard sword or larger). It would be both unique to the cavalier and allow a lot of flexibility depending on his weapon in hand.
True it moves away from the classic mechanic of putting a lot of force behind the small point of a lance, but it does add flair.
... I'm sorry, but why do you need an ability to do this? What exactly is stopping you from charging with any other weapon as is?
Well there isn't one really. You can charge with any other weapon you like and besides doesn't chargeing with a lance provide enough flair as it is?
james taylor 876 wrote: Well there isn't one really. You can charge with any other weapon you like and besides doesn't chargeing with a lance provide enough flair as it is? I was referring to the lance as being the only weapon which grants double damage in a charge, and the only polearm which can be used one handed in a charge. And being able to charge with a glaive seems pretty cool. But for a level 20 bonus I will admit would be pretty lame.
You can have double damage just take the spirited charge feat.
Recent threads in Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle
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