Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So, I sent them after first a goblin witch, then had a half-orc summoner come down and attack. The battle was a near-TPK, averted by action points. In the end, both the goblin witch and the half-orc summoner ended up getting away, but their followers were wiped out.
Summoner/W Playtest
The PCs:
Irena – female Halfling barbarian 2/fighter 1/cavalier 1 (wolf mount)
Gersemmi – female dwarf fighter 1/cleric 3
Coel – male human ranger 2/fighter 2
Fijitor – female gnome druid 4 (big cat animal companion)
The campaign does use action points, so PCs can occasionally take extra actions, boost die rolls, etc.
The PCs began the gaming session with a weeklong voyage across Lake Encarthan from Tamran in Nirmathas, stopping in ports in Druma, Kyonin, and finally Razmiran, heading into the River Kingdoms on the trail of a priestess of Razmir with a tripartite key that would grant access to a lost city filled with hidden treasure.
The PCs had several seaborne encounters (a sea hag on a drifting wreck, several lacedons almost carried off a paralyzed druid and left him with goul fever, a Druman tax cutter shook them down, and a swarm of tiny crabs accosted them near the Kyonin shore) before bypassing Xer in Razmiran and heading upriver into Tymon. The cavalier usually ended up picking oaths that did not help and never really used his challenge ability in these fights.
They landed at the Keep on the Borderlands, a free fort at the river fork where Kyonin, Razmiran, and the River Kingdoms meet, and discovered their wayward Razmiran priest had hired a guide and guards to take her to the Caves of Chaos not far away. Conflicting rumors said many different rival humanoid tribes lived there, while others said most had been killed and only goblins (or orcs, depending on the report) remained. More importantly, a ruined shrine to some dark power (every story naming a different malign deity) was said to lie within, guarding a sealed gateway of some kind. Of note, they learned they were not the only ones interested in the Razmiran priest; a mysterious half-orc of several aliases (but known to keep a winged blue serpent as his pet) was also looking for her. Some said he had been an orcling in the Caves of Chaos as a child but had left to study arcane magics.
But, enough backstory! The party got to the caves and entered one of the cave mouths, which turned out to be a trap-riddled goblin lair. The party was soon beset by goblin archers from ahead and behind, while a cry of “Bree-Yark” brought reinforcements from deeper in the caves. We had lots of bog-standard goblins, plus an ogre that came out of an adjoining cave later on, and a goblin witch!
ST 8, IN 16, WS 13, DX 18, CN 14, CH 8
AC 20 (T 16, FF 16)
HP 35
Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +6
Feats Craft Wand, Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Skills Craft (alchemy) +11, Heal +9, Knowledge (nature) +11, Spellcraft +11, Stealth +15
Hexes cackle, evil eye, misfortune
Atk +7 dagger (1d3-1)
Gear dagger, wand of cure light wounds, wand of enlarge person, wand of grease, wand of mage armor (all wands CL 1, 25 chgs), +1 cloak of resistance
Spells
0 – detect magic, message, stabilize, touch of fatigue
1 – burning hands, charm person, ray of enfeeblement, reduce person (spellbook: cure light wounds, enlarge person, grease, jump, mage armor)
2 – cat’s grace, false life, web (spellbook: glitterdust, levitate)
3 – bestow curse, heroism
Before arriving at the battle site, she buffed up with cat’s grace, false life, heroism, mage armor.
Once she arrived, she cast web, which she did to great effect, getting all but one of the party in it. The druid already had a flaming sphere going, though, which allowed them to ‘tunnel’ a hole through the web. The party was also split by the web, with about 8 goblins on each side of it.
My original idea was to have the ogre come out and have her cast enlarge person on it, both to bash for huge damage and also to bull-rush people into the web or into pit traps in the lair. As it happened, the party got two quick big damage hits on the ogre (one with flaming sphere, one a weapon) and it dropped fairly quickly, though it hit for big damage a couple of times before it went down.
The second part of the witch’s strategy was going to be to use misfortune on a target, cackle to extend it, and then move up and use bestow curse and other save-based spells. She first used misfortune on Irena, and while it worked another PC came and blocked the way so she could never close on her. Even when she dropped other spells on Irena afterwards, luck turned out that she rolled just about the same every time she had to make a pair of rolls – by luck, the misfortune ended up not mattering.
The closer PC, the Gersemmi the dwarf, was targeted with evil eye and misfortune but saved every time. The witch did move up and use burning hands for good damage on one character, but the other two hit avoided it (evasion for the cat, ring of fire resistance for Irena). More effective was a grease spell from her wand that messed up movement through a tunnel and made it harder for PCs to approach. In the end, the witch (with 1 hp) and two of her goblins were able to retreat and use Stealth to hide, but the party did not have time to find them because all of a sudden phase 2 of the battle began, with that half-orc they heard about.
ST 11, IN 10, WS 12, DX 14, CN 14, CH 18
AC 17 (T 12, FF 15)
HP 46
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +5
Atk +3 dagger (1d4)
Skills Handle Animal +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Spellcraft +8, Use Magic Device +12
Feats Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conj), Toughness
Gear dagger, +1 chain shirt
Class Features life link, bind senses, shield ally, summon monster III 7/day
Spells
0 (at will) – detect magic, guidance, mage hand, mending, read magic, resistance
1st (5/day) – enlarge person, magic fang, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, shield
2nd (3/day) – haste, invisibility, protection from arrows
with 5 orcs in tow, plus his eidolon
ST 14, IN 7, WS 10, DX 18, CN 14, CH 11
AC 20 (T 14, FF 16)
HP 37
Fort +3, Ref +9, Will +6
Atk +9 bite (1d6+2 plus 1d6 electricity), +7 tail (1d6+2 plus 1d6 elec), +7 two wings (1d4+1 plus 1d6 elec)
Speed 20 feet/climb 20/fly 20 (good)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Escape Artist +12, Fly +12, Perception +8, Stealth +12
Feats Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse
Evolutions (not including the freebies for being serpentine) – energy attacks (electricity), spell-like ability (shocking grasp 3/day), resistance (electricity 10), flight, wing buffet
He can pre-spelled only with invisibility and shield on himself and on his eidolon.
The summoner started burning his way through the webs with a trio of small fire elementals (using his SMIII ability) followed by his orcs, and he ended up parleying with the party for about 2 rounds, telling them of his rivalry with the goblins and that he and his orcs would be happy to finish things up and that the party should be on their way so there weren’t any unfortunate “accidents.” The party was not keen on giving up its loot and of course ended up fighting. Bear in mind that the web and grease effects were still there and gumming up a fair amount of the caves, as well as a couple of pit traps.
Inevitably, things turned to violence.
Round 1: The fire elementals went forth as did the orcs, some running afoul of the grease. The summoner maneuvered invisibly, ordering his minions to attack and casting magic fang on the eidolon’s bite. The eidolon cast shocking grasp and held the charge.
The druid was stuck on the side of the grease with the monsters. Low on spells, she wildshaped into a deinonychus for speed and attacks (still had a flame blade going) and ran away, with one of the elementals in pursuit. Turns out fire elementals are really fast; hard to get away from one. Still, the dino-druid now runs a circuit out of the ogre cave and back towards the goblin cave entrance, hoping to use scent in wild shape to find the invisibles.
Round 2: Last round for the fire elementals, but two are killed so there’s only one left anyway. Summoner began a new SMIII. Eidolon stays near to give shield ally. One orc makes it across the grease, two fall down trying to navigate it. The cavalier’s wolf moves across the grease and finds the invisible summoner and eidolon (though doesn’t know which is which), but misses attack because of concealment. The cavalier/ftr/barb moves across the grease to try and close.
Round 3: 3 fiendish riding dogs are summoned and attack, two against Coel and Gersemmi on the far side of the grease, one against the wolf companion on the near side. With Augment Summoning, they hit pretty hard (1d6+5 damage), but nobody in the party who is good-aligned gets smite gooded. Summoner immediately follows with haste on himself, the eidolon, and the 3 riding dogs. Orcs continue fighting, but two get cleaved by Gersemmi the ftr/clr.
The eidolon flies out and attacks the cavalier with a bite plus electricity plus shocking grasp for almost 30 hp.
Round 4: Last orcs are killed, but riding dogs are getting 2 attacks/round and eidolon 5 attacks per round. Eidolon attacks and almost kills Irena (would be negative except for rage hp, and only has about 2 rounds of rage left). Irena challenges it and misses its high AC but has his wolf move into flanking position. Fijitor the dino-druid runs back into the cave and locates the invisible summoner. His cat attacks one of the riding dogs. Summoner cast’s protection from good on his eidolon.
Round 5: Coel, at low hp, has been using his bow but switches back to earthbreaker for melee. He and Gersemmi eventually kill the two on their side of the grease and start making their way across. Fijitor the dino-druid tries full attacking (5 attacks) the invisible summoner and misses all. The eidolon attacks Irena and misses all 5 attacks. Irena crits the eidolon (using an action point to improve the confirm roll). Wolf still flanks.
Round 6: As riding dogs start falling, summoner begins another SMIII. The eidolon is hit twice more and killed! Riding dog trips dino-druid and knocks him negative, but he uses action points to stay conscious.
Rounds 7-8: Party calls for summoner to surrender, he finish summoning a fiendish aurochs and tells THEM to surrender, or offers a truce – they can keep the goblin loot and he’ll take the ogre loot. His aurochs readies an action to trample. The party reconfigures, does some healing to save the druid from death, and makes a path for the summoner, who moves invisibly into the adjacent ogre cave (connected to the goblin cave by a secret door) and starts looting. The PCs argue that it’s their loot too and eventually someone goes in and attacks the summoner carrying the visible bags (though for like a round or so we had forgotten that rule and treated them as becoming invisible, but it never really mattered as there were 2 animals and a druid with scent that were always close enough to figure out where the summoner was).
As soon as the party attacked, the aurochs trampled, killing the wolf and knocking Coel negative (he used action points to stay conscious). The druid cast an entangle outside of the ogre cave to prevent the summoner from fleeing that way with the loot.
Round 9: Aurochs trampled again and killed Coel but got entangled. Summoner started another SMIII. PCs located him but couldn’t hit his AC/miss chance. I believe because there had been the couple-round pause for conversation above, I let the cavalier challenge the summoner (treating it as a separate battle from the earlier fight when the eidolon had been killed). We did remember to add in his Order of the Cockatrice power (+1 to hit for allies vs. challenged target if she threatened).
Round 10: First aurochs disappeared, but ANOTHER fiendish aurochs appeared and trampled big cat (evasion = no dmg) but stomped Coel again (he ended up at like -43 hp, but kept functioning another round because of action points) one or two other characters, ended up next to Gersemmi. Summoner tried to flee past Gersemmi, but she blocked the only clear square between the grease and web.
Round 11: Cole died finally. The aurochs tried to bull rush Gersemmi out of the way into a pit, but her max-damage AoO killed it. The half-orc moved through the grease and went around Gersemmi. The rest of the party followed and eventually decided to attack his visible bags of loot. He fled invisibly without his gold.
SUMMARY:
Witch: The witch’s planned strategy didn’t exactly work out, as the organic battlefield didn’t let her do what she had planned to do. She was reasonably effective in combat, and two of her spells really complicated the battlefield (both for her own fight and the next one). Her good AC let her get away with some AoOs, but she avoided taking touch powers and went ranged instead.
Cackle is nice for getting good hex effects to ‘stick’ to a character. Item creation led to a fistful of wands which were handy, but it was hard for her to worry about buffing just one creature when she had one tough ally (but who died quickly) and a bunch of homogeneous minions. Witches might need a bit more in the way of group buff effects.
Summoner: My players thought the summoner, even played with the Jason B revision (full-round to activate, last 5 rounds), might be overpowered. Being able to cast their max-level summon spell so many times is pretty significant. He whistled up 3 small fire elementals, 3 fiendish riding dogs, and two fiendish aurochs, as well as a half-dozen throwaway orcish redshirts as a personal guard. With the de rigeur Augment Summoning feat, all of those summons were coming through pretty beefy – usually it would take 2-3 hits to drop one , plus they could do good damage (and the STR bonus made the fiendish aurochs’ trample attack (2d8+12, Ref 21 half).
Towards the end of the battle, the summoner really had very little to do on his own. He ended up casting a cantrip (resistancce) near the end. He had good UMD; I really shoulda given him a wand of some sort to supplement, but I forgot . Being invisible was far too useful in avoiding AoOs from PCs and their pets.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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my apologies if someone already asked these, but:
a. Can a witch take Ability Focus (hexes)
b. If a is "yes," does he have to take a different one each level
c. Also, to clarify, "share spells" in PF means you can cast spells ON your eidolon as if it was you. So, it's not that you share them as in both have them together, it's share as in let them do it like you do it.
d. How far away can you cast a spell on your eidolon through link.
Anyway, sleepz is calling!
Being able to cast their max-level summon spell so many times is pretty significant. He whistled up 3 small fire elementals, 3 fiendish riding dogs, and two fiendish aurochs, as well as a half-dozen throwaway orcish redshirts as a personal guard. With the de rigeur Augment Summoning feat, all of those summons were coming through pretty beefy – usually it would take 2-3 hits to drop one , plus they could do good damage (and the STR bonus made the fiendish aurochs’ trample attack (2d8+12, Ref 21 half).
A great playtest Jason, one thing though. The summoner can only have onesuch summon monster spell active per the Bulmahn Update.
Hopefully that alleviates some of the pressure.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Being able to cast their max-level summon spell so many times is pretty significant. He whistled up 3 small fire elementals, 3 fiendish riding dogs, and two fiendish aurochs, as well as a half-dozen throwaway orcish redshirts as a personal guard. With the de rigeur Augment Summoning feat, all of those summons were coming through pretty beefy – usually it would take 2-3 hits to drop one , plus they could do good damage (and the STR bonus made the fiendish aurochs’ trample attack (2d8+12, Ref 21 half).A great playtest Jason, one thing though. The summoner can only have onesuch summon monster spell active per the Bulmahn Update.
Hopefully that alleviates some of the pressure.
That rule WAS being used.
He started out with 3 small fire elementals. When 2 out of 3 had been killed, he started another summon.
Last SFE disappeared as he summoned 3 fiendish riding dogs. When 2 out of 3 had been killed, he started another summon.
Last FRD was killed during the intervening round, and then the first fiendish aurochs appeared. Several rounds passed, FA trampled and then got stuck in an entangle, he started another summon.
The entangled FA disappeared and he replaced it with another one. When that one was killed, he was in full "get me outta here!" mode and didn't want to do any more full-round summons.
So yeah, sorry if I gave the impression he was spamming the battlefield. Actually, he was just continually recycling his minions as they would get killed or as his duration would be winding down. Usually around round 4 or so his summons were close to killed anyway, so the timing worked out as a 5th level summoner that he'd need to replace them about every 4 rounds anyway, whether they were going to disappear from duration or just getting killed or otherwise incapacitated by the PCs.
That's the hidden nicety of the summoner's SLA - he doesn't need to worry if his mooks get blasted or damage or taken out by mind-affecting & similar spells (yknow, fear, color spray, sleep, confusion, entangle, black tentacles, resilient sphere, the usual suspects) cuz he can just make new, fresh, healthy ones almost any time he wants.
That was what made the summoner tough in this playtest - he could hide quite well by just staying invisible, keeping moving, and avoiding the PCs as best he could, while just summoning reasonably buff monsters over and over again. In a battle of attrition, a summoner has a substantial edge. It's not foolproof, of course, especially if, say, the party's druid had had faerie fire available and the party could've cornered him, but if that had been the case he'd have tried to flee sooner.
One problem with the summoner is not just that he knows relatively few spells, but he doesn't get a ton per day. It seems like he can do a lot to buff his summons, which he can, but really he burns through those spells really fast.
I realized afterwards that I had forgotten to give the summoner a wand or something - I gave him a pretty good UMD skill but forgot to gear him up for it. Since his strategy was going to be "hide, summon, and buff," I might not have given him an offensive wand anyway, but even a wand of CLW might have been handy to keep his hp up when he did get hit, since most attacks were missing anyway because of his combo of good AC and 50% miss chance. Also could have gone with something like wand of shield of faith to give his summons AC bonuses.
Anyway, everybody had a good time. I wasn't trying to design THE ultimate super-awesome-ultimate min-max playtest scenario for these guys. Just a regular adventuring party running up against two regular 5th level humanoid spellcasters with pretty basic equipment, each leading a small tribe or group of ordinary 1st-level humanoid warriors of their race.
Ironically, in the end both the witch and the summoner got away, perhaps to return and plague the PCs for a return engagement, though they'll be 5th level next time and may be ready to kick some booty and chew some bubble gum. And they're fresh outta bubble gum.
Glad you enjoyed!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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my apologies if someone already asked these, but:
a. Can a witch take Ability Focus (hexes)
b. If a is "yes," does he have to take a different one each level
Sorry, I was REALLY sleepy when I typed this.
I meant: Does a witch have to take a separate Ability Focus feat for each individual hex (one for evil eye, one for sleeping touch, etc.), or would it be just one Ability Focus (hex) feat? I would tend to think the former, cuz the latter would be too good.
Interesting, it seems that is a very good strategy for a summoner (summoning a new beasty as the previous one is weakened). Sure the old one is replaced, but that was ready to die anyway. It makes the Villian Summoner more dangerous compared to his PC counterpart because its an effective way to use up his ample resources (generally villians dont have to worry about more then one fight, players do). I dont think however that is different from what happens with most spell casters.
As for the witch having group buffs, I would rather see the witch have more de-buffs. I dont see a witch as someone who get their minions powered up, but instead weakens her enemies for her minions. This however is a strictly less effective method in dnd (since de-buffs include saves and buffs do not), but it fits so much better, I would rather see that improved for the witch.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Interesting, it seems that is a very good strategy for a summoner (summoning a new beasty as the previous one is weakened). Sure the old one is replaced, but that was ready to die anyway. It makes the Villian Summoner more dangerous compared to his PC counterpart because its an effective way to use up his ample resources (generally villians dont have to worry about more then one fight, players do). I dont think however that is different from what happens with most spell casters.
As for the witch having group buffs, I would rather see the witch have more de-buffs. I dont see a witch as someone who get their minions powered up, but instead weakens her enemies for her minions. This however is a strictly less effective method in dnd (since de-buffs include saves and buffs do not), but it fits so much better, I would rather see that improved for the witch.
It's a fair point. Perhaps more group debuffs?
Then again, as some have suggested, just make their individual debuffs better by removing ONE of the knocks against them:
a. touch attack
b. saving throw
c. provoke AoO
Having all three of those come into play on their hexes is a little harsh.
I actually ran into a little problem with the witch, in that I had forgotten to bring the printout of the witch's hexes, so I had to do a bit from memory. The relevant points were I forgot that:
a. Evil eye still affects the target for a round even if they save
b. Misfortune is a touch effect, not a ranged effect like evil eye
The latter was odd to forget, since I had built up the witch to have a good AC so she could duck in and use her touch hex, but whatever. Can't remember everything, and I thought I had the pdf with me but I had accidentally brought the cavalier/oracle one instead. Oops.
Interesting, it seems that is a very good strategy for a summoner (summoning a new beasty as the previous one is weakened). Sure the old one is replaced, but that was ready to die anyway. It makes the Villian Summoner more dangerous compared to his PC counterpart because its an effective way to use up his ample resources (generally villians dont have to worry about more then one fight, players do). I dont think however that is different from what happens with most spell casters.
As for the witch having group buffs, I would rather see the witch have more de-buffs. I dont see a witch as someone who get their minions powered up, but instead weakens her enemies for her minions. This however is a strictly less effective method in dnd (since de-buffs include saves and buffs do not), but it fits so much better, I would rather see that improved for the witch.
It's a fair point. Perhaps more group debuffs?
Then again, as some have suggested, just make their individual debuffs better by removing ONE of the knocks against them:
a. touch attack
b. saving throw
c. provoke AoOHaving all three of those come into play on their hexes is a little harsh.
I actually ran into a little problem with the witch, in that I had forgotten to bring the printout of the witch's hexes, so I had to do a bit from memory. The relevant points were I forgot that:
a. Evil eye still affects the target for a round even if they save
b. Misfortune is a touch effect, not a ranged effect like evil eyeThe latter was odd to forget, since I had built up the witch to have a good AC so she could duck in and use her touch hex, but whatever. Can't remember everything, and I thought I had the pdf with me but I had accidentally brought the cavalier/oracle one instead. Oops.
I definately think either the AoO or the touch attack need to go. I havent seen it in playtest, but I have played enough touch based casters to know a poor idea when I see one.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I just remembered something else about the summoner that I forgot about during the playtest - the life link ability. When the eidolon was dropped by damage by the party's cavalier, the summoner could've just donated hp to it in order to keep it up and fighting - that was why I gave the summoner the toughness feat in the first place! He had 46 hp and was doing nothing but running around invisible; in that case, a cure wounds wand would have made even more sense - he could just keep hiding and keep donating hp to the eidolon and keep curing himself.
Perhaps that'll be his strategy for the rematch! :)
(All of this just goes to show, it's hard to remember all the new bits and pieces when you're playtesting something new!)
I just remembered something else about the summoner that I forgot about during the playtest - the life link ability. When the eidolon was dropped by damage by the party's cavalier, the summoner could've just donated hp to it in order to keep it up and fighting - that was why I gave the summoner the toughness feat in the first place! He had 46 hp and was doing nothing but running around invisible; in that case, a cure wounds wand would have made even more sense - he could just keep hiding and keep donating hp to the eidolon and keep curing himself.
Perhaps that'll be his strategy for the rematch! :)
(All of this just goes to show, it's hard to remember all the new bits and pieces when you're playtesting something new!)
I think its hard to remember all the bits and pieces regardless. Probably the most challenging thing about a dm, is keeping all the abilities of their npc's and monsters in mind long enough to effectively run an encounter.
Interesting playtest, that sounds like a really cool fight. I'd argue that your conclusion about summoner power though is probably slightly skewed, given the advantages NPC spellcasters have vs. PC spellcasters (namely they can and do blow and all spells they have in the fight).
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Interesting playtest, that sounds like a really cool fight. I'd argue that your conclusion about summoner power though is probably slightly skewed, given the advantages NPC spellcasters have vs. PC spellcasters (namely they can and do blow and all spells they have in the fight).
It's true - it's no different, really, than a PC having, say, a metamagic (empower) or (quicken) rod. It can be used 3/day, which is nice but not gamebreaking for a PC who may have to cast spells all day, but awesome for an NPC who can take all three shots in one battle.
So, if this were a PC Summoner, he'd have blown his eidolon and four of his 7 summons and almost all of his spells by the time the battle was over. He'd be pretty much tapped by the end of the fight and relying on crossbow and/or wands from there on out.
Though, really, that's okay; that's part of class resource management; you can blow your stash and then have to limp along afterwards. It only becomes icky when a campaign devolves into "spellcasters go nova for one fight, then they make the rest of the party stop for the day so they can get their stuff back." But that is another story... :)
Interesting. I hadn't noticed that the aurochs (& bison) now has such a dangerous Trample ability. Giving the eidolon Shocking Grasp was a nasty surprise, too.
Note that you can't ready an action to trample, since it's a full-round action (according to the Bestiary).
Question: The summoner was able to utilize invisibility to an extreme advantage. Typically the act of using a spell-like ability does not have verbal components. But in this case, the lack of verbal components effectively ups the power of the spell by one level. A spell-like ability provokes AoOs, but in combination with silent and invisible, the spell is effectively silent (as Silent Spell). Because the verbal components would have betrayed the location of the summoner (and made the fight much easier), do you think that giving the summon monster spell-like ability verbal components (like the Warlock's spell-like abilities) would have made the fight more fair?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Interesting. I hadn't noticed that the aurochs (& bison) now has such a dangerous Trample ability. Giving the eidolon Shocking Grasp was a nasty surprise, too.
Even worse, when the eidolon hits 7 HD he could take Empower Spell-Like Ability (shocking grasp), also pretty hardcore.
Note that you can't ready an action to trample, since it's a full-round action (according to the Bestiary).
Oops, you're right. My bad.
Then again, I also forgot the AoO vs. trample is at -4 to hit.
So one oops in my favor, one in the players' favor.
In re-reading it just now, I thought they also changed it to require a CMB check to overrun people, but they say a few sentences in that "no check is needed." That kind of makes me wonder why they brought up overrun at all, as it would seem to just confuse the issue. It doesn't "work just like the overrun combat maneuver," because it doesn't have a chance of knocking anyone prone - it just lets you move through and cause damage.
I had been thinking trample/standard = single move and trample/full-round = double move, but given the overrun language (that it is a standard action you take WHILE you move), it would seem that the true answer is trample/full-round = single move.
But yeah, esp. with Augment Summoning in play, trample is pretty hardcore for a monster you can get with SM3.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Question: The summoner was able to utilize invisibility to an extreme advantage. Typically the act of using a spell-like ability does not have verbal components. But in this case, the lack of verbal components effectively ups the power of the spell by one level. A spell-like ability provokes AoOs, but in combination with silent and invisible, the spell is effectively silent (as Silent Spell). Because the verbal components would have betrayed the location of the summoner (and made the fight much easier), do you think that giving the summon monster spell-like ability verbal components (like the Warlock's spell-like abilities) would have made the fight more fair?
It wouldn't have made a difference in this case, because invisibility grants total concealment, and per p. 197 in the PFRPG:
"You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."
They could find him using scent (2 animal comps + wild-shaped druid) and also once he picked up the bags of ogre loot, but they couldn't make AoOs because of the total concealment. Being able to find him by hearing his voice wouldn't have really helped.
It wouldn't have made a difference in this case, because invisibility grants total concealment, and per p. 197 in the PFRPG:
"You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies."
They could find him using scent (2 animal comps + wild-shaped druid) and also once he picked up the bags of ogre loot, but they couldn't make AoOs because of the total concealment. Being able to find him by hearing his voice wouldn't have really helped.
Right, the players wouldn't have had AoOs against him. However, he managed to get off 3 full round casts. That typically shouldn't happen.
But, assuming your ranged characters could hear the casting, they could have fired arrows/spells into the square of the invisible opponent *if* they knew what square he was in (A DC 20 Perception check to pinpoint the square of someone speaking). Because there's no verbal components, they'd have to use perception versus stealth to figure this out, which is impossibly harder (DC = Stealth check + 40 to pinpoint).
Note that scent isn't the end-all-be-all of invisibility detection:
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
Yes, 50% miss chances would still apply, but being able to find the guy spending 1 full round to get off a spell-like ability would have greatly helped in disrupting him. If your party had focused on disrupting the summoner *AND* you could have actually found him, he would have been less effective. But with no verbal components, your party is out of luck without see invisibility. In fact, even the normally very good faerie fire is a crappy option -- you can't figure out what square needed to get hit. Glitterdust is better because it hits a bigger area, but again it's a guessing game for the area depending on the terrain.
I can tell this was a very difficult fight for the PCs just by the CR alone, but the number of options your party had in killing the caster (almost always the best idea) was greatly reduced by having no verbal components on the SM casts.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Right, the players wouldn't have had AoOs against him. However, he managed to get off 3 full round casts. That typically shouldn't happen.
But, assuming your ranged characters could hear the casting, they could have fired arrows/spells into the square of the invisible opponent *if* they knew what square he was in (A DC 20 Perception check to pinpoint the square of someone speaking). Because there's no verbal components, they'd have to use perception versus stealth to figure this out, which is impossibly harder (DC = Stealth check + 40 to pinpoint).
Sure, it made it a lot harder. And also, he did occasionally speak to the PCs, and cast some actual spells, but always moved after doing so, so while they could have pinpointed him at the moment of speech they were not able to keep a permanent fix on him.
As you say, that would be a lot harder of a trick to pull off with a full-round verbal casting - I agree with you, the seemingly subtle shift of spell to SLA makes a big difference in a situation like this, a situation I would submit is a pretty likely strategy for a summoner; stay hidden/out of the way and let your summons do the work for you.
Note that scent isn't the end-all-be-all of invisibility detection:
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
Oh, surely not. The advantage was a relatively constrained space (a series of caves, with a web, grease, and several open pits covering some of the area, plus other creatures) plus three creatures with scent AND good movement rates. A deinonychus (the druid) has a speed of 60, and the cat and wolf I think both had speed 50; since the creature to be pinpointed only has to be within 5 feet, you can do 15-foot wide sweeps just by moving around and still get your standard action.
Normally this is kind of a dangerous tactic, because it exposes you to an inviso-AoO from the hidden creature, but the PCs figured out pretty fast that this guy had no intention of attacking directly and spoiling his invis, so the AoO ceased to be a threat and they just had to avoid the summoned monsters while moving.
Yes, 50% miss chances would still apply, but being able to find the guy spending 1 full round to get off a spell-like ability would have greatly helped in disrupting him. If your party had focused on disrupting the summoner *AND* you could have actually found him, he would have been less effective. But with no verbal components, your party is out of luck without see invisibility. In fact, even the normally very good faerie fire is a crappy option -- you can't figure out what square needed to get hit. Glitterdust is better...
FF or GD would have worked well (though obviously GD was not an option in this party, as they don't have an arcane caster - one player had started a Wiz/Clr of Nethys but dropped out of the campaign), because with three fast creatures with scent, they could cover the area well enough to usually find the summoner, and you only need to find him once to FF him for the rest of the battle.
The summoner was pretty well hidden the first few rounds, and his screen of mooks prevented the PCs from closing the distance to sniff him out, but once they got the sniffers close they knew pretty well where he was the rest of the battle.
All told, though, you're right: Having the SLA be silent is a significant and perhaps non-obvious power boost to the summoner if they employ the "hide and summon" tactic. Maybe it's even a good illustration of the kind of data you get from PLAYtesting the class that you might not get from just "lookjudging" it. I'm just sayin... :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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BTW, I should also point out that the second fight was extra tough as it came more or less on the heels of the first one. True, they had about 2 rounds to reorganize and heal while they parleyed with the half-orc (plus another round or two mid-battle where they paused and healed), but they were down some resources from fight 1 when fight 2 began, and the two fights were both probably CR/EL 6 combats vs. a 4th-level party.
Goblin witch 5 + ogre + a total of around 16 goblins (though attacking in waves, not all at once) + some scattered CR 1 traps... probably around CR 6, maybe a high 6/low 7 by straight numbers.
Summoner 5 + 5 orcs... probably around CR/EL 5 (since the eidolon and summons don't count on CR, but realistically you're talking about around 3 CR 1 monsters constantly recycling through the battlefield just from the summons, not counting the eidolon)
So these were pretty tough fights for a party of this level, made more so by being linked together, but hey that's why we have those action points, so you can be heroic... TO THE EXTREME!!! :)
All told, though, you're right: Having the SLA be silent is a significant and perhaps non-obvious power boost to the summoner if they employ the "hide and summon" tactic. Maybe it's even a good illustration of the kind of data you get from PLAYtesting the class that you might not get from just "lookjudging" it. I'm just sayin... :)
Yeah, your playtest data is great.
The primary classes in PF have a few secondary spell-like abilities (SLA) that aren't primary abilities. They're mainly to fill in the gaps when spell slots start running low. Wizards have specialist abilities, clerics have domain abilities, sorcerers have bloodline abilities, etc.
The summoner changes things by making SLAs the center ability of the class. This can cause little fluke things, like summoners able to make themselves invisible and use most of their class abilities without making a sound and without being seen.
Sorcerers/wizards/clerics/druids/bards have to take several feats to equal the summoning capabilities of a summoner -- even a lowly Summon Monster I cast by a wizard in PF must be a Silent, Stilled Summon Monster I (a spell taking up a 3rd level spell slot) with the Eschew Materials feat to equal what summoners get. I'm sorry, but even with attacks of opportunity on SLAs, I don't see how this is balanced.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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All told, though, you're right: Having the SLA be silent is a significant and perhaps non-obvious power boost to the summoner if they employ the "hide and summon" tactic. Maybe it's even a good illustration of the kind of data you get from PLAYtesting the class that you might not get from just "lookjudging" it. I'm just sayin... :)Yeah, your playtest data is great.
The primary classes in PF have a few secondary spell-like abilities (SLA) that aren't primary abilities. They're mainly to fill in the gaps when spell slots start running low. Wizards have specialist abilities, clerics have domain abilities, sorcerers have bloodline abilities, etc.
The summoner changes things by making SLAs the center ability of the class. This can cause little fluke things, like summoners able to make themselves invisible and use most of their class abilities without making a sound and without being seen.
Sorcerers/wizards/clerics/druids/bards have to take several feats to equal the summoning capabilities of a summoner -- even a lowly Summon Monster I cast by a wizard in PF must be a Silent, Stilled Summon Monster I (a spell taking up a 3rd level spell slot) with the Eschew Materials feat to equal what summoners get. I'm sorry, but even with attacks of opportunity on SLAs, I don't see how this is balanced.
The balance comes from their radically reduced options - fewer spells, lower level.
My sample guy is a 5th level caster, and he only has 2nd level spells (though, true, one is a 3rd level spell for Sor/Wiz). He knows about the same number as a sorcerer, maybe one more of each level, but he casts like 2 fewer a day of each level. A Wiz has about the same number of 1st & 2nd level spells, but also gets most likely 2 3rd level spells per day, plus two bonus feats. Sorcs get their bloodlines (which they can tailor to their specialties - an enchantment-focused Sorc can go infernal, etc.), Wizards get their school powers.
He beats the crap out of the other guys at just summoning stuff, including his very buff eidolon, but he doesn't have a lot of outside options besides that. He has one schtick that he does very well and can use his other spells for trying to round out the general-purpose stuff and maybe being a second-line combatant if he wants to go that route.
Whether the total package is balanced or not... I think it's probably okay. It's a strong class, but I don't know if it's over the top.
Interestingly, here's another quirk of the SLA: A summoner can't really benefit from Quicken or Empower SLA on their summon monster ability; since it scales up in level along with them to the next highest level of summons, their caster level never exceeds the effective spell level by enough to qualify.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Interestingly, here's another quirk of the SLA: A summoner can't really benefit from Quicken or Empower SLA on their summon monster ability; since it scales up in level along with them to the next highest level of summons, their caster level never exceeds the effective spell level by enough to qualify.Sure they can. Don't have time to look right now, but per a post by Jason they retain access to the lower level SLA abilities. They all come from the same pool, but if you WANT to use an SLA on Summon Monster I when you could be doing gate you are allowed.
Ah, that's what I get for skimming. I thought it auto-leveled.
Then again, I'm not sure you'd really WANT to (for Empower; I could see quickening more easily), but good to know it's at least an option to downgrade summons if you had some reason to do it.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The 2d0 PFSRD has already been updated to reflect these changes.
I'm cool with that - it didn't make sense that riding dogs came one level before wolves did, when their stats are virtually identical (if not slightly in favor of the riding dog at SM1 over the wolf at SM2).