How is this an appropriate challenge for a first-level group?
It really depends upon the makeout of the party and the purpose of the swarm.
Even low-level area spells are effective against the swarm, but in general all swarms are a big threat to 1st level characters.
If I where you I would first pose the questions: Why is the swarm here? and what does it "want"?
Most swarms would probably not pursue the party in the first place but would react to what it "perceives" as a threat.
Basically 1st level characters should flee or opt for area spells and alchemists fire, flasks of burning oil and the like. Terray can also be useful. A large body of water can cut off a swarm from pursuite or features like silos, full cauldrons etc. can be helpfull too.
I actually like using summon swarm to fight off swarms.
Even my party of 6 2nd level characters are having a hard time hurting the spider swarm.
I now let them use acid splash (see this other thread) against the swarm.
A lot of harmless scutteling spiders and a few bigger ones that are actually dangerous (but easier to fight) could set the same mood. For instance, you could mix in 4-8 scarlet spiders (Giant spider variants) in with the swarm of harmless smaller spiders. Let the PC's pass a perception-check to spot the big spiders that are actually hurting them among all their swarming cousins.
Otherwise, there are always the classic low-CR virmin foes:
- Rats/Dire Rats
- Centipides
- snakes ("why did it have to be snakes?")
- lizards
- stirges
- poison frogs
The trouble is that there aren't any low-level area spells with meaningful effects on a swarm besides Burning Hands, and it can't one-shot the swarm. If a creature is a "big threat" to a first-level party in that there is a very good chance that a first-level party could be completely incapable of fighting it without investing between a third and two thirds of their starting money on being able to beat it, then that creature has no business being rated CR 1.It really depends upon the makeout of the party and the purpose of the swarm.
Even low-level area spells are effective against the swarm, but in general all swarms are a big threat to 1st level characters.
I do not think it is quite that simple. with only 9 hp the spider swarm might be hard to fight with a CL1 burning hands spell, but it is still susceptible to mundane means of attack. Ordinary oil prepped as grenade weapons, barrels of pitch, even mundane bug repelant and fire (to scare them) might work.
Spider swarms are not rated above CR1 because they are relatively easy to destroy for a 3rd level and above party, or even a 1st level party that is well prepared. But at low levels preparation is a supremely important factor when fighting swarms.If I where you I would first pose the questions: Why is the swarm here? and what does it "want"?It's here to eat whoever comes by. It wants to eat whoever comes by, and follows them until they are eaten. Seriously, they're spiders. I just wanted them for a creepy mood-setter critter for the party to drop into, but they're just too crazy for that level.
Regardless of stats spider swarms and many other swarms are mundane creatures from our world. Keep that in mind.
They will react to extreme heat and try to avoid it and will be vulnerable to many ordinary attacks and effects. Even rain will in many situations disuade a swarm from pursuing the party. A swarm will very rarely attack mindlesly (regardless of actual Int score) They will either protect their nests or attack prey. Humans are not natural prey to most insects/animals.A spider swarm will only form in an area where there is plenty of food available and will rarely leave their home to pursue their prey. Before you drag the last Indiana Jones into this discussion, be aware that 1) those are army ants in that movy (which have a VERY exceptional ecology) and 2) its a movie.
A pursuit like the one you describe is very unlikely and you should let players with good ideas to escape or evade the swarm have a reasonable chance at success.
If you only need the spiders to set the mood, then let them do EXACTLY that, do not use them as an excuse to defeat the party. Swarms are a surpassable challenge to characters who are prepared or who can think on their feat, and you should treat it as such.
IMO
For kicks, I used a spider swarm as the very first encounter my current group fought. They were on their way somewhere and bedded down on a conveniently clear patch of ground; it was an underground nest. Setting the campfire drew out the spiders. They even got a surprise round on everyone but the Divination wizard.
With good rolls, one burning hands (from the cleric!) and one flask of alchemist's fire finished the fight before the swarm got its second action. So while this can definitely be a swingy encounter, it can swing pretty far toward "cakewalk." If it had been in tall (flammable) grass instead of on nearly bare dirt, burning hands would have finished it alone. The halfling was also prepared to shovel the campfire onto the swarm (granted, this was a convenient but generally unlikely side-effect of his favorite weapon being a shovel).
The halfling was also prepared to shovel the campfire onto the swarm (granted, this was a convenient but generally unlikely side-effect of his favorite weapon being a shovel).
:D
The halfling was also prepared to shovel the campfire onto the swarm (granted, this was a convenient but generally unlikely side-effect of his favorite weapon being a shovel).:D
I had a halfling in 2nd edition who had proficiency with the frying pan...
Halflings rule :)
Others have mentioned it, but I'll repeat it: oil flasks. They only have a 50% chance of igniting, but if they do, one flask covers a 5 foot square, does 1d3 damage, and lasts 2 rounds.
A narrow corridor, a couple flasks of oil and your toughest level 1 PCs beating at the swarm with torches for their 1 HP of fire damage will take down the swarm's 9 HP in a couple rounds. If even that's necessary--if you get the oil going, a spider swarm that starts crossing a burning square is likely to opt for retreating from the burning square than pursuing the party through it--or at least force them to reroute their pursuit in a way that gives the party enough time to retreat/make more fires/etc..
It is a tough fight--but in a way, a great way to force a young party to learn to be creative and behave tactically as a team, because they have to use resources they would not normally think of as "combat" resources.
Also, acid flasks are only 10 GP. It's not TOO unlikely that even a 1st level a party should have at least 1 on hand, and if not, leave one or two as treasure somewhere. If you're planning the swarm somewhere, I don't think you're coddling too much if you make sure the party is prepared in some way before it. Certainly they should "earn" it--but say, if they research the area they're going into and they learn swarms of vermin are likely, they should be able to figure out to bring flammable things and alchemical items if they can afford them. Put other flammables or alchemicals in hidden caches in the area--or perhaps possessed by an undead adventurer who preceded the party, etc.
The hard part about spider swarms--and any vermin swarm--is less the swarminess and more the mindlessness that vermin have as a trait. You can cast sleep or even daze on an animal-based swarm to great effect, but not to vermin.
PF accidently left out a passage from the SRD called Vulnerabilities of Swarms. See here for details.
Of course, it is probably common for PF parties to think they are really clever for saving a copper piece by just using at-will Light instead of a torch, like mine did. So even if you add these rules back, they have to light torches while being crawled/chewed on.
PF accidently left out a passage from the SRD called Vulnerabilities of Swarms. See here for details.
Of course, it is probably common for PF parties to think they are really clever for saving a copper piece by just using at-will Light instead of a torch, like mine did. So even if you add these rules back, they have to light torches while being crawled/chewed on.
Good point! The oldskool in me automatically thinks--1st level party=they must have torches and oil for lanterns (and 10' poles and iron rations and...)!
At-will light certainly does make that seem less necessary, although hopefully non-spellcasters will still have some of that on hand in case they end up being separated from their spellcaster friends.
2 words. Burning Hands.
If your only spellcaster is a first level wizard, he at most can probably only cast that twice a day, IF he prepared it. And that's at most 2d4 damage, which will not by itself kill a 9 hp creature.
Absolutely it will help if you happen to have that spell available. And you're well off if you have a sorcerer with that on their spell list. But other tactics are probably going to be needed on top of that.
Weapon-immune swarms are crazy. At least a quick-moving PC could beat a spider swarm on the straightaway, but no such luck versus a bat swarm. About all the average 1st or 2nd level adventurer can do is use a torch/lantern/oil flask, but that does such a piddly amount of damage.
After 3rd level, a Gust of Wind disperses ANY swarm that cannot be affected by weapons.
...assuming that it fails the Fort save (and possibly a Fly check if it's a bat swarm). And assuming that you have Gust of Wind memorized or on a scroll.
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Are these like the spiders from Arachnophobia or Kingdom of the Spiders or something? No natural spiders I'm aware of gather in swarms. In addition to hiding some swarm-breaking set pieces or terrain around the dungeon, you could just have the spiders act like normal spiders who all decided to live near one another. They attack anything that threatens their homes and that's it.
Spiders can't eat solid meat so hunting small and medium-sized humanoids doesn't make alot of sense for them. They need to be able to inject their digestive enzymes into the creature so they can liquefy the organs and suck them out. That's why they generally only prey on similar-sized creatures. In order for them to "eat" an average-sized human, a swarm would still probably have to work in shifts. Any humanoids they take down will likely just lay there and eventually become incorporated into the spiders' home once other scavengers and the passage of time have done their job.
Of course, this is throwing out all the various fantasy reasons a swarm might hunt down a group of humanoids. Maybe they're under the control of some undead creature or they're actually part of an ancient version of Summon Swarm with an indefinite duration?
Are these like the spiders from Arachnophobia or Kingdom of the Spiders or something? No natural spiders I'm aware of gather in swarms. In addition to hiding some swarm-breaking set pieces or terrain around the dungeon, you could just have the spiders act like normal spiders who all decided to live near one another. They attack anything that threatens their homes and that's it.
Spiders can't eat solid meat so hunting small and medium-sized humanoids doesn't make alot of sense for them. They need to be able to inject their digestive enzymes into the creature so they can liquefy the organs and suck them out. That's why they generally only prey on similar-sized creatures. In order for them to "eat" an average-sized human, a swarm would still probably have to work in shifts. Any humanoids they take down will likely just lay there and eventually become incorporated into the spiders' home once other scavengers and the passage of time have done their job.
Of course, this is throwing out all the various fantasy reasons a swarm might hunt down a group of humanoids. Maybe they're under the control of some undead creature or they're actually part of an ancient version of Summon Swarm with an indefinite duration?
They are the spiders from Fantasy Role Playing Game-land - the strange place where all creatures naturally inhabit places where they might be encountered by a group of adventurers who are somehow just strong enough to defeat them.
It's a game, dude - suspend some disbelief for a while. :-)
One of my favorite 1st level encounters was with some tiny rats (2 1/2 x 2 1/2 space, 0 reach). The DM represented 4 of them with a d6 showing 4, reducing it as we cut them down with crossbows, etc. They only had 1 or 2 hit points, but there were a lot of them! Because they have 0 reach, they provoke AoOs before they enter a PC's space to attack them.
It can be scary, being a 1st level PC and seeing the battle field covered with d6s EACH representing 4 nasties, but it's still a relatively easy fight.
They look like a swarm, but don't fight like a swarm!
The immune to weapon damage is pretty much a big ole 'dont put this in front of a party that doesnt come prepared' sign for me.
One of my favorite 1st level encounters was with some tiny rats (2 1/2 x 2 1/2 space, 0 reach). The DM represented 4 of them with a d6 showing 4, reducing it as we cut them down with crossbows, etc. They only had 1 or 2 hit points, but there were a lot of them! Because they have 0 reach, they provoke AoOs before they enter a PC's space to attack them.
It can be scary, being a 1st level PC and seeing the battle field covered with d6s EACH representing 4 nasties, but it's still a relatively easy fight.
They look like a swarm, but don't fight like a swarm!
Good idea; a number of Tiny monstrous spiders ("scarlet spiders" in Pathfinderese) would make a decent (and not particularly lethal) spider swarm.
Are these like the spiders from Arachnophobia or Kingdom of the Spiders or something? No natural spiders I'm aware of gather in swarms...
There were a number of stories like this and this a couple years ago which might be the original inspiration. They are now the first thing that now comes to my mind when I think "spider swarm."
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Are these like the spiders from Arachnophobia or Kingdom of the Spiders or something? No natural spiders I'm aware of gather in swarms...There were a number of stories like this and this a couple years ago which might be the original inspiration. They are now the first thing that now comes to my mind when I think "spider swarm."
0.o
Holy crap. I must use the picture in that first link as a prop in my game at some point.And that second link makes me itchy just reading it...*shudder*
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...does 3.75 damage to it on average. Even if a wizard has two casts of it prepped, it may not be enough to kill the swarm.2 words. Burning Hands.
Oh! You mean a party may have to decide to retreat from a battle and come back better prepared?!?! In the last 8 years of 3.5 and beyond I have seen a party retreat from a battle a total of 2 times. If the party can't whip out some torches, a 1st level area spell, some oil, or some alchemist's fire then dammit they should have to run like hell away.
1st level parties should be leaning on alchemical and mundane equipment to solve issues or they really aren't ready for D&D.
I see your spider swarm and raise you a cannibal baby swarm.
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Most first-level parties can't.Emphasis mine.
Alchemist Fire - Cost 20gp. No save. Effect vs swarm: 1d6 dmg x 1.5. Average result: 5.25 dmg. Duration: 2 rds. Net resulting dmg: 10.5 dmg or 85% chance of defeating the encounter. Availability: Any (Thorp has a 50gp limit) Avg starting gold of poorest PC class: 35gp (Monk). Chance poorest PC will NOT have enough to buy: 16.66% or 1/6.
I'm repeating myself here. It's an investment of between 1/3 and 2/3 the wealth of a party member to be able to do that, and it doesn't even work a significant amount of the time.
It's not a glass cannon. It is a red door which can only be overcome if you thought to bring the red key beforehand. That's terrible monster design.
Flask of oil. Does the same thing as alchemist's fire cept it only lights 50% of the time and it takes a full round to set up. Costs a silver piece. It's a red door everybody who has ever played has been through a thousand times. If they haven't they either
1) learn this particular red door or2) kick themselves for not bringing flasks of oil.
Now, I'm almost certain that this answer isn't good enough for some reason, but if it's all the same to you, I'll keep on throwing oil flasks at s~+!. Fire's cool.
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Post got eated. Possibly by a spider swarm.
Anywho, my local DM has generally been generous at 1st level and allowed a character that starts with craft (alchemy) to start with cheap-rate acid / alchemist's fire. After 'graduating' from whomever taught the character craft (alchemy) before 1st level, the character is no longer welcome to drop in and borrow the equipment, so the character no longer qualifies for crafted item rates until he/she forks out for their own alchemy workspace (or otherwise acquires one).
[3.5 spider swarm tangent] A Cleric with Improved Turning feat and the Spider Domain can have a single 2 HD Spider Swarm as a commanded 'pet' at 1st level. A Drow Cleric with the Alternate Class Feature from Complete Champion, and Improved Turning, can have *three* 2 HD Spider Swarms rebuked/commanded at 1st level! (*Four* if she also has the Spider Domain!) I do love my Pathfinder, but I miss my Command Critter Clerics... [/3.5 spider swarm tangent]
It's not a glass cannon. It is a red door which can only be overcome if you thought to bring the red key beforehand. That's terrible monster design.
I disagree. It is a fantastic monster in so far as the GM uses it with planing and thought to its actual role. It can quickly lead to terrible adventure design but that is another matter in my oppinion.
I think players have to think outside the box and be presented with actual challenges, and a spider swarm is (sometimes) a good way to do that.
Does anyone ever bother to read the entirety of the burning hands spell, and then also read the "catching on fire" section?
At first level, it's 1d4 + 1d6 in many situations. 2.5 + 3.5 = 6 average... which is 9 after swarm vulnerability. A one-hit kill.
Does anyone ever bother to read the entirety of the burning hands spell, and then also read the "catching on fire" section?
At first level, it's 1d4 + 1d6 in many situations. 2.5 + 3.5 = 6 average... which is 9 after swarm vulnerability. A one-hit kill.
It has actually been a very long time since anyone bothered to learn the burning hands spell in my group. Aside from situations like this I think it is often a weak and clumsy spell.
But it is well suited against swarms.
Aside from situations like this I think it is often a weak and clumsy spell.
If you hit something flammable (like most characters and many creatures, according to the rules for catching on fire) it's the best damage spell available at 1st and 2nd levels, falling to Scorching Ray at 3rd... unless you get something to burn for multiple rounds, in which case it stays ahead a while longer. Good for disrupting spellcasters, too.
No, it's not sleep or even color spray. But there are a lot of situations where I'd pick it over magic missile[i] or [i]shocking grasp. It's the kind of thing you might as well keep a scroll of, just in case you need to start a fire in a hurry. Also, clerics of Sarenrae frequently have access to it and none of the above.
It's not the greatest thing since feather token: tree but it's better than people give credit for. :)
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Does anyone ever bother to read the entirety of the burning hands spell, and then also read the "catching on fire" section?
At first level, it's 1d4 + 1d6 in many situations. 2.5 + 3.5 = 6 average... which is 9 after swarm vulnerability. A one-hit kill.
It has actually been a very long time since anyone bothered to learn the burning hands spell in my group. Aside from situations like this I think it is often a weak and clumsy spell.
But it is well suited against swarms.
I always see it in my groups, mostly because it is the first area of effect spell that does damage. I've seen it used to good effect by a lot of players.
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But, to take your concerns to the extreme, are ALL creatures with regeneration "crabs", since a party unprepared to counter their regeneration cannot kill them? That is essentially the same argument you used above.
Exactly. Toss a level appropriate troll at an unprepared party and they are stuck and they start complaining that the DM tossed something too hard at them. It isn't the DM's fault that a bunch of players didn't decide to be prepared for encounters that they may encounter. This is like complaining that the DM placed a large chasm in the dungeon that must be crossed to continue when the party never bought a rope and grappling hook or that the dungeon is dark and no one bought torches, sunrods, or a lantern, and didn't memorize any light spells..... Tough, buy gear to tackle problems. That's what adventurers are supposed to do.
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I see your spider swarm and raise you a cannibal baby swarm.
Oh sh**. As a soon-to-be-parent, this is not the kind of article I need to be reading.
But, to take your concerns to the extreme, are ALL creatures with regeneration "crabs", since a party unprepared to counter their regeneration cannot kill them? That is essentially the same argument you used above.
No, as long as the substance that stops regeneration is level appropriate. For instance, a troll's regeneration is stopped by fire or acid, and it's certainly appropriate to expect that a 5th level party would have some method of creating fire in combat. If the regeneration was only stopped by +5 weapons (say), then that would be unfair because a 5th level party can't be reasonably expected to have a +5 weapon (notwithstanding the fact that they could probably pool their money and buy a single +5 arrow).
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But, to take your concerns to the extreme, are ALL creatures with regeneration "crabs", since a party unprepared to counter their regeneration cannot kill them? That is essentially the same argument you used above.No, as long as the substance that stops regeneration is level appropriate. For instance, a troll's regeneration is stopped by fire or acid, and it's certainly appropriate to expect that a 5th level party would have some method of creating fire in combat. If the regeneration was only stopped by +5 weapons (say), then that would be unfair because a 5th level party can't be reasonably expected to have a +5 weapon (notwithstanding the fact that they could probably pool their money and buy a single +5 arrow).
Agreed, so accordingly you can say that a 1st level party has access to torches, oil, 1st level scrolls and spells, and alchemist's fire.
Guess that makes a CR1 spider swarm a proper encounter for a 1st level party. If they choose not to be prepared then I guess the party is gonna learn a lesson about the consequences of not being prepared.|
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If you hit something flammable (like most characters and many creatures, according to the rules for catching on fire) it's the best damage spell available at 1st and 2nd levels, falling to Scorching Ray at 3rd...
Catching on Fire
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.
Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
Burning Hands
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range 15 ft.
Area cone-shaped burst
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
A cone of searing flame shoots from your fingertips. Any creature in the area of the flames takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action.
All emphasis mine.
Since instantaneous fire magic, by default, doesn't set characters on fire, and burning hands only makes an exception for flammable materials/items, I've always ruled that burning hands doesn't set creatures on fire.
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I see your spider swarm and raise you a cannibal baby swarm.Oh sh**. As a soon-to-be-parent, this is not the kind of article I need to be reading.
As a soon-to-be-parent you are gonna notice all kinds of articles that skimmed by you before. I remember when my wife and I were prepping for kid 1 it seemed like every story in the news was about daycare abuse, infant deaths, unsafe kid stuff, toxic levels of lead in everything....it was horrible and made us both pretty paranoid. Good luck and take it all with a grain of salt.