This is just an airing of some things that have been dancing around in my brain as I look at the two new classes.
There have been a lot of comments to the effect that the Eidolon kind of overshadows the Summoner, and I can't help but ask myself...Isn't that kind of the idea ?
As a summoner, your shtick is to summon others to fight for you.
You don't need a 3/4 BA, and light armor training....that's the role your summoned warriors serve, they are your meat shield's, and your weapons.
There have also been a lot of comments in regards to the Witch and her hexes...specifically the "touch attack" and AoO problems caused by the Witches poor BA, and lack of armor.
Why not switch the two around ?
Give the Summoner poor BA, and no armor proficiencies, and let his strongest characteristic....his summoned allies...do the work for him.
By the same token, given that most gamers are not going to be writing up 60 year old hags for their characters, give the Witch 3/4 BA, and light armor proficiency, and give her the means to get in there and do what she is designed to do....put hexes on people during combat.
OK....you may start throwing the rotten fruit at me now ;)
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I agree that the summoner should be made much weaker. This, of course, wouldn't work with many people's inevitable dragon rider concepts, but, oh well.
However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.
That and touch attacks don't have to hit AC just touch AC which is often 10, even in your beefiest of monsters.
All witches need to to lose the AoO or make it "cast the touch" then move and touch, or allow a concentration check. (but leave them SU!!!)
I agree that the summoner should be made much weaker. This, of course, wouldn't work with many people's inevitable dragon rider concepts, but, oh well.
However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.
I agree. The Eidolon's should be really powerful, because his weakness should be the summoner. It's kind of like Tomax and Xamot, except one of them is an ideal target.
I think pushing the summoner down to 1/2 BAB would fit well. He should not be fighting anyway, unless something has gone wrong.
I agree that the summoner should be made much weaker. This, of course, wouldn't work with many people's inevitable dragon rider concepts, but, oh well.
However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.
That and touch attacks don't have to hit AC just touch AC which is often 10, even in your beefiest of monsters.
All witches need to to lose the AoO or make it "cast the touch" then move and touch, or allow a concentration check. (but leave them SU!!!)
I agree, wizards have not had a major problem with their touch spells despite poor BaB, the to hit is not the issue here. Its the AoO with no chance to avoid them in addition to being a fairly squishy caster. I have played casters who often used touch spells, a 12-14 strength usually is enough even with a low bab.
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I agree, wizards have not had a major problem with their touch spells despite poor BaB, the to hit is not the issue here. Its the AoO with no chance to avoid them in addition to being a fairly squishy caster. I have played casters who often used touch spells, a 12-14 strength usually is enough even with a low bab.I agree that the summoner should be made much weaker. This, of course, wouldn't work with many people's inevitable dragon rider concepts, but, oh well.
However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.
That and touch attacks don't have to hit AC just touch AC which is often 10, even in your beefiest of monsters.
All witches need to to lose the AoO or make it "cast the touch" then move and touch, or allow a concentration check. (but leave them SU!!!)
Or high dex and weapon finesse, then you get both AC, attack bonus and ref save on one stat, instead of worrying about two.
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With the change to the Summoner's SLA ( specifically the minutes to rounds ) he can no longer guarantee that his summons will stay around long enough to help him out. The summoner isn't so much a summoner as a bard who gets some extra summoning spells( as they work exactly like summon monster y now ). He will undoubtedly be in situations where he can't summon a creature to help protect him do to the 1 round casting time. Pretty easy to interrupt someone when everyone has a chance to do it.
obviously the above was in reference to his summoning abilities and does not include the eidolon.
I agree that the summoner should be made much weaker. This, of course, wouldn't work with many people's inevitable dragon rider concepts, but, oh well.
However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.
I agree. The Eidolon's should be really powerful, because his weakness should be the summoner. It's kind of like Tomax and Xamot, except one of them is an ideal target.
I think pushing the summoner down to 1/2 BAB would fit well. He should not be fighting anyway, unless something has gone wrong.
Depends on the character concept Wraithstrike, I've seen several people on the boards (and likely intend to build one myself at some point soon) who's summoners fought in combat alongside the Eidolon. Martial Weapon proficiency isn't a terrible feat (or exotic weapon proficiency if there's an exotic you've got your eye on) and mix it up that way.
I agree the witch should be more survivable, and have better accuracy for her hexes (My vote would be to give more of them close range opposed to range touch, but eh, that's probably just me lol, I'd be inclined to give their familiar toughness for free ontop of everything.)
I would like the Summoner's BAB to remain the same. When my player rolled one up, he was often making good use of a composite longbow to aid his Eidolon (which did overshadow the Summoner in combat, but otherwise the Summoner remained the commander and party face). My player really enjoyed it, and even though he still missed a fair amount of times, he felt that he was making good contributions to the party (between casting the occasional buff).
Regarding the Witch, I could go either way. I like what Kyrt says here, but I wouldn't object to having more of them doable at a range. I haven't really seen them in action enough to truly judge.
With the change to the Summoner's SLA ( specifically the minutes to rounds ) he can no longer guarantee that his summons will stay around long enough to help him out.
And that's the part I'm not sure I'm fond of.
For me at least, what I liked about the summoner idea was his hightened focus on summoning. I'm not sure that I'm interested in the idea of him stepping in and helping his creatures fight "side by side".The summoner isn't so much a summoner as a bard who gets some extra summoning spells( as they work exactly like summon monster y now ). He will undoubtedly be in situations where he can't summon a creature to help protect him do to the 1 round casting time. Pretty easy to interrupt someone when everyone has a chance to do it.
obviously the above was in reference to his summoning abilities and does not include the eidolon.
The Summoner isn't so much a summoner ?
That I would say is a BIG problem.If I wanted to play a Bard, I'd take the Bard class :/
If I choose to play a Summoner, I expect to play someone who specalizes in summoning other beings to fight for him....not with him.
I would rather they put the duration back as it was, and drop the summoners BA, so that people stop going "Oohhh....I have a 3/4 BA, give me a sword" ;)
But that's just me, YMMV
However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.
I have mixed feelings regarding many of the comments I'm seeing regarding the Witch.
I'm a little diappointed in the feel of the familiar, and not entirely sure how I feel about the BA, and lack of light armor.....That and touch attacks don't have to hit AC just touch AC which is often 10, even in your beefiest of monsters.
All witches need to to lose the AoO or make it "cast the touch" then move and touch, or allow a concentration check. (but leave them SU!!!)
I agree they need to loose the AoO, but I also think a few more of the Hexes should have some kind of range.
If the Witch is going to use her witts to lay the hexes a lot, they should at least put bluff on her skill list.I also agree with leaving the Hexes (Su) ;)
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However, I do not agree that the witch should be changed around. I like it as it stands. It forces the player to be shrewd and wily in order to survive, much like a witch.I have mixed feelings regarding many of the comments I'm seeing regarding the Witch.
I'm a little diappointed in the feel of the familiar, and not entirely sure how I feel about the BA, and lack of light armor.....That and touch attacks don't have to hit AC just touch AC which is often 10, even in your beefiest of monsters.
All witches need to to lose the AoO or make it "cast the touch" then move and touch, or allow a concentration check. (but leave them SU!!!)
I agree they need to loose the AoO, but I also think a few more of the Hexes should have some kind of range.
If the Witch is going to use her witts to lay the hexes a lot, they should at least put bluff on her skill list.I also agree with leaving the Hexes (Su) ;)
All the playtest I've seen so far say Cackle really needs a better range too, like seriously if I can here you cackle it should probable work, and evil laugh at 31' is still creepy :)
The witch does have a solution for her reliance on touch effects. She gets the spectral hand spell. Ive used this spell to great effect with a necromancer.
I like them the way they are. Whether it makes sense to people or not, a lot of summoner concepts support the idea of a character with at least a semi-decent BAB. The name aside, the class is about the eidolon, and riding or supporting the eidolon is kind of implied. Aside from that, you can lose your summons or your eidolon can die/be stopped by a 5 foot tunnel, and then you're going to need something to do.
As for the witch, I think higher BAB would be pretty inappropriate. This class just doesn't seem combaty like a cleric or rugged like a druid. It has, however, been almost universally agreed on that touch hexes need to work at a range and not provoke AoOs, so I'm hoping we see this change implemented.
The witch does have a solution for her reliance on touch effects. She gets the spectral hand spell. Ive used this spell to great effect with a necromancer.Problem is, Spectral Hand only lets you deliver touch Spells, not Hexes.
True. However one of my favorite classes from 3.5, the dread necromancer, also had multiple touch powers. It had a special ability that let him channel them through the spectral hand spell. Maybe the witch can have something like that? I think it sounds appropriate, a ghostly hand tapping on your shoulder and cursing you.
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True. However one of my favorite classes from 3.5, the dread necromancer, also had multiple touch powers. It had a special ability that let him channel them through the spectral hand spell. Maybe the witch can have something like that? I think it sounds appropriate, a ghostly hand tapping on your shoulder and cursing you.The witch does have a solution for her reliance on touch effects. She gets the spectral hand spell. Ive used this spell to great effect with a necromancer.Problem is, Spectral Hand only lets you deliver touch Spells, not Hexes.
I think the witch really needs to 1) be able to deliver touch hexes through spectral hand 2) be able to deliver touch hexes through familiar
Both not explicitly stated in the rules yet, and would be reasonable and enhance the playability. Both have their limitations that would limit over use.
the problem with changing the BAB and armor wearing proficiency is then you'd have to make the summoner a full on caster rather than a partial caster, and that opens up a whole new can of worms.