So I was originally planning on playtesting the Summoner on Sunday but I got impatient and wanted to see it in action. That and who knows how many other people are running 1st level play tests and the like? So I canceled our standard Saturday game of a rather colorful take on the Red Hand of Doom and opted, instead, to have a playtest night. I tried to give my players as much of an advanced notice as possible but alas we were only able to get in a few hours of gaming.
The test run would be for a higher level campaign than that of the game we're running later today. I decided to start our Rise of the Runelords game from where we left off. The conclusion of Fortress of the Stone Giants would offer the recap of the campaign up to that point (quite convenient with the library there) and run the beginning portion of Sins of the Saviors which is a nice mini dungeon with only a few encounters. Perfect for a quick play test.
So, they rolled up a trio of 12th level characters. Two of the players played APG characters while a third, deciding that the witch and the cavalier held no interest to him, decided to play a paladin seeing as he had rolled up some good stats. The characters were:
Imub: A 12th level human Stone Foci Oracle. Anyone familiar with a certain Earthbender from a certain animated TV show would know who this guy was based off of if they examined his name a little.
Arthas: A 2nd level human Fighter, 10th level Paladin. A reluctant Paladin who answered the calling for reasons that went beyond his wants or his family.
Ka'Im: a 12th level halfling Summoner. A halfling from the distant South East with an Eidolon of disturbing qualities.
Gorthrek: a NPC meant to fill the rogue slot if we got far enough that it became necessary. Suffice to say it did not.
Sources:
I restricted the PC's to Pathfinder sources only. They made their characters rather well given they weren't allowed other D20 material. While I permitted magical items from the various Pathfinder Companions and other Pathfinder books (like Seekers of Secrets) the PC's pretty much stuck to the PRPG. They were allowed 2 traits as well though those hardly factored in.
Magic Item Problems: Suffice to say it's been awhile since I've started a game at higher levels and one of the first things the PC's thought about was getting item creation feats to halve the cost of magical items. Suffice to say I wasn't too keen on it but couldn't find advice on how to handle it and maintain balance without otherwise demolishing a valid idea. In the end I permitted two items made per PC at half value but instituted a market value cap.
Actual Play (Warning SPOILERS ahead.)
The PC's teleported in to the town of Sandpoint and were almost immediately summoned to see Father Zantus considering they chose to appear near the church. They had a feeling something had happened, Sandpoint couldn't seem to go three days without some crises or danger cropping up. Apparently one of their old haunts, the Catacombs of Madness, had decided to open up a 30ft diameter sky light. After a squad of 10 of the town guard went down to investigate they disappeared. Given the disturbing noises that had been issuing from there since the town leaders were certain that death would flow forth from that pit and into the streets of the town above.
With a wearied sigh they chose to investigate rather than kick back in the rusty dragon. The Oracle proved the most proficient to this task. Putting his Earth Glide and Crystal Sight as well as his blind sight to use when he needed, he explored the former catacombs of wrath eventually coming across the cleared stairwell. Finding a patch of earth to glide into was easy enough considering the cave-in that had occurred so he followed the shaft to it's base and easily found the secret door with his Crystal Sight. A quick cast of Detect Magic also revealed a faint abjuration aura further down the corridor. He poked his head into the main chamber inadvertantly setting off the Alarm spell he had seen before heading back to report his findings to the party.
*Note: While their exists a strong mechanical argument for why the Stone Speaker Oracle cannot glide through worked stone. The flavor reasoning is kind of weak. The same went for the Eidolon and the reasoning behind why it couldn't wear armor. They understood why it shouldn't be able to but the reasoning felt weak and cheap, they sort of damaged the flavor of the classes in both cases.
The PC's eventually made their way into the main chamber of this temple to Lamashtu where they were confronted by a hidden scribbler. Refusing to answer any of his questions unless he showed himself, something even he was not mad enough to do, he grew angry and set one of the guardians on the PC's, one guardian who promptly became two as it summoned a second Glabrezu to the fight.
Battle: Playtest classes and a paladin vs. 2 upper echelon demons!
When they spied the demons through the fog they wasted little time. The Paladin charged forward into melee declaring a smite evil and promptly made the first Glabrezu feel his blade. Meanwhile the summoner sent his Eidolon forth and the large sized creature couldn't move in to attack the other one without getting an Attack of Opportunity from the first. With a +20 to hit it EASILY cut through the Eidolons defenses. The Oracle cast Divine Power on himself. As both Eidolon and Glabrezu had a fifteen foot reach they didn't need to close much further.
The Eidolon went and full attacked with claws, bite and a tentacle strike and after damage reduction came into play did a total of 5 points of damage. The Glabrezu's went. The one on Arthas the Paladin didn't even scratch him what with the Paladins bonuses from Smite Evil in place it boosted his normally considerably AC to over 40 meaning the Glabrezu had to roll a nat 20. The other one full attacked the Eidolon and with it's 27 AC they hit with both pincers, a rend, both claws, and it's bite. The Eidolon was dust by the end of the first round. When it's handler Ka'Im went he promptly cast haste.
The second round proved devastating. We roll init for every round though it didn't matter much as the only change in order was the Summoner went before the Glabrezu's. The Stone speaker used his Earth Glide to bypass the Glabs' Attack of Opportunity range and popped up behind him but the damage dealt was a mere 7 points after reduction. The Paladin used his hastened full attack to good effect as he promptly tripped the Glab, rolled a critical on the first attack and hit with the following attacks. By round two a Demon with 180 hp was dead.
The Summoner, well, the Summoner knew it's summons would effectively be useless so he just sort of stood there. The other Glabrezu moved in to assault the Paladin, it had a better chance to hit the man but still needed a pretty absurd number to get past his normal AC. This is where I groaned. Both the Claw attacks, and the Pincer attacks came up 3's. The bite was a little better but not enough to hit. So a full attack wasted that might have been put to better use using a spell like ability like Reverse Gravity or Powerword Stun. Though on a meta game level those wouldn't have done too well either.
The third round was where things ended. The Oracle tried to cast Dismissal but couldn't get through the Spell Resistance and the Paladin got another full round of attacks wherein he tripped and brought the Glab from near max to 31 hp. When it tried to use a spell like ability the two got attacks of opportunity and killed the thing.
Battle End
Conclusions?
The Eidolon isn't all it's cracked up to be even at mid level play. Now to be fair, it could be it probably wasn't as properly optimized as it could have been, but anyone looking at it would have thought it competent to go through a 12th level game.
Against such powerful things the Summons weren't even considered, the flanking bonuses they could have contributed might have been nice but the PC's had no trouble hitting the Glabrezu's they needed to damage them which only the Paladin was any good at.
The Oracle was pretty good. I had to think on my feet a bit more than usual with the Earth Glide in effect and I can see that causing considerable problems to unprepared GM's in dungeon crawls along with Crystal Sight. In combat, well, I can speculate that against non Demonic entities that mighty pebble ability would have come in handy as well as the rock throwing but alas we were only able to get in the one combat.
Given the starting gold and the stats rolled primary stats were easily placed above 25 and while the Oracle and the Summoner had their AC's in 20's the Paladin was at 37 prior to the smite.
I also had another thing of note. I limited the use of this for the purpose of the playtest but one of the PC's acquired the Craft Wondrous Item feat and wanted to know how much they could buy at 1/2 off. I permitted a few items and imposed a GP limit on them but wasn't used to how to handle it seeing as it's been years since we've tried to start a game at such a higher level as opposed to working from 1st level on. Unrelated I know but I will say I'm hoping the Game Mastery Guide will have advice for situations like this.
All in all it was a good session. The Glabrezu's weren't altogether pushovers but with the Paladin in the party they were mincemeat from the beginning. I might of made the encounter even more challenging but two CR 13 creatures should have been more than enough. Considering one full attack dropped the Eidolon (who was softened by one attack of opportunity) I'm hesitant to view the Eidolon as the all powerful monstrosity some people have been claiming it to be.
Anyway, not sure if that helps you folks over there at Paizo but it made me re-think a few things. I'll post again after our first session in the Legacy of Fire wherein we have a Summoner and a Witch.
Would you be willing to post the stats of the classes tested?
Summons at level 12? So SM 6 right?
Fighting Glabrezu + summoned one. They have 8 touch AC.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/demon.html#demon-glabrezu
Multiple Lantern Archons can blast it with Ranged touch...goes through DR and SR. Might have worked.
SM 6 calls forth 1d4 +1 of them (average 3.5 so usually 3 but sometimes 4).
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/archon.html#archon-lantern
The Lanterns need a 6 on a 1d20 to hit. They each deal 1d6 (and they have 2 rays each). They wouldn't kill it, but they'd weaken them enough to be killed by the Oracle or Pally.
I think that the Summoner didn't know enough about summoning so waste an action, "to stood there".
He could have cast a spell if not summon 3 to 4 Lantern Archons with 1 useage of his Summoning ability.
Heck, did the Summoner even cast a spell? He has Haste, etc...
Seems like some Huge air elementals would have been good SM VI's... Fly above the critters, hit them with 2 +19 slams (assuming Augment Summoning feat) for 2d6+8 each - still some effect against AC28 and DR 10. Or 1d3 bralanis, the demon's Reflex save blows so the whirlwinds would work OK on them...
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Seems like some Huge air elementals would have been good SM VI's... Fly above the critters, hit them with 2 +19 slams (assuming Augment Summoning feat) for 2d6+8 each - still some effect against AC28 and DR 10. Or 1d3 bralanis, the demon's Reflex save blows so the whirlwinds would work OK on them...
Why use an elemental? Summon a celestial Triceratops and smite the everloving bejessus out of them.
He cast Haste in the first round. While he could have summoned something in round 2 it wouldn't have been able to do anything until round 3 unless I'm missing something in the alteration made to the summoner rules. At which point it was all over but the crying. Both the Oracle and the Paladin went first in round three and when the Glabrezu tried a spell like ability it was AoO'd to death. If the combat had been longer then the Huge Air Elementals would have been a nice touch. To be honest I had been hoping the person who played the Paladin would play the Summoner, he's the most knowledgeable one in the group for that sort of thing and would have been the best at putting it through the ropes and showing off what it can really do. Should we manage to get another play test in I'll be sure to mention that to whoever runs the summoner.
He cast Haste in the first round. While he could have summoned something in round 2 it wouldn't have been able to do anything until round 3 unless I'm missing something in the alteration made to the summoner rules. At which point it was all over but the crying. Both the Oracle and the Paladin went first in round three and when the Glabrezu tried a spell like ability it was AoO'd to death. If the combat had been longer then the Huge Air Elementals would have been a nice touch. To be honest I had been hoping the person who played the Paladin would play the Summoner, he's the most knowledgeable one in the group for that sort of thing and would have been the best at putting it through the ropes and showing off what it can really do. Should we manage to get another play test in I'll be sure to mention that to whoever runs the summoner.
The Summoners Class feature Summon monster spell-like ablilty dosn't have the same stats as the regular spell. Its cast time is only 1 standard action, and it lasts 1 minute per CL. So your summoner could have summoned something on round 2, and had it act immediatly.
If it cast a summon monster using its regular spell slots however, then it works normaly (1 round cast time, 1 round per CL duration)
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He cast Haste in the first round. While he could have summoned something in round 2 it wouldn't have been able to do anything until round 3 unless I'm missing something in the alteration made to the summoner rules. At which point it was all over but the crying. Both the Oracle and the Paladin went first in round three and when the Glabrezu tried a spell like ability it was AoO'd to death. If the combat had been longer then the Huge Air Elementals would have been a nice touch. To be honest I had been hoping the person who played the Paladin would play the Summoner, he's the most knowledgeable one in the group for that sort of thing and would have been the best at putting it through the ropes and showing off what it can really do. Should we manage to get another play test in I'll be sure to mention that to whoever runs the summoner.The Summoners Class feature Summon monster spell-like ablilty dosn't have the same stats as the regular spell. Its cast time is only 1 standard action, and it lasts 1 minute per CL. So your summoner could have summoned something on round 2, and had it act immediatly.
If it cast a summon monster using its regular spell slots however, then it works normaly (1 round cast time, 1 round per CL duration)
Jason tweaked that ability last Friday...
Jason tweaked that ability last Friday...He cast Haste in the first round. While he could have summoned something in round 2 it wouldn't have been able to do anything until round 3 unless I'm missing something in the alteration made to the summoner rules. At which point it was all over but the crying. Both the Oracle and the Paladin went first in round three and when the Glabrezu tried a spell like ability it was AoO'd to death. If the combat had been longer then the Huge Air Elementals would have been a nice touch. To be honest I had been hoping the person who played the Paladin would play the Summoner, he's the most knowledgeable one in the group for that sort of thing and would have been the best at putting it through the ropes and showing off what it can really do. Should we manage to get another play test in I'll be sure to mention that to whoever runs the summoner.The Summoners Class feature Summon monster spell-like ablilty dosn't have the same stats as the regular spell. Its cast time is only 1 standard action, and it lasts 1 minute per CL. So your summoner could have summoned something on round 2, and had it act immediatly.
If it cast a summon monster using its regular spell slots however, then it works normaly (1 round cast time, 1 round per CL duration)
You mean the data in the PDF was changed? I better re-download that again then.
I just looked at the pdf, (downloaded a fresh copy). It still says the summoning ability is a standard action.
"Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner
can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this
ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components."
Quote from the playtest pdf
I must say, the summoner sounds like he was fairly badly underplayed. At level 12, neglecting to buff or equip your companion beyond the minimum AC of 25 (+2 base form natural, +10 level natural, minimum +3 dex) is kinda like making a monk run into a fight with no equipment. Sure, his AC is higher than anyone else in the party without gear, but it's still cruelly inadequate.
No offense to your player, but a summoner who doesn't take care of his eidolon with Mage Armor and Barkskin should be put away for cruelty to outsiders. There's a reason his entire spell list is buffs: to jack the eidolon's stats to the moon. Jason took away armor, and rings from all the creatures without arms, so you've gotta replace that with support magic.
That said, I suppose you've demonstrated that the summoner's spell selection and usage is critical for the class to function. I don't know if I really like the idea of having to burn and babysit 2-4 spells just so my creature can be meaningful in a fight.