Can you increase attributes via Tomes?
Same question WRT Wishes?
Can you put permanent effects on Eidolons?
I dont like the idea of them using tomes. There is a deliberate cap on them using magic items. The tomes or manuals are just an expensive way around that.
They are living creatures so if they are going to be denied there should be some type of fluff to say why some one-use items, such as potions can benefit them, while better ones like the tomes, can not. I don't think they should be barred from all magic items completely. The only things I see wrong with them are first, the ease of getting pounce, combined with all the natural attacks. At higher levels I would not mind, because high level characters should do awesome things, but they should be redone with the ability to gain an extra primary or secondary attack at certain levels.
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Too be fair, I can see both sides of this:
No there's no reason any of these things should be limited, but for the sake of balance yes some of them should. In the end, really, it should be up to both the PC and the DM to come to a concensus on what's reasonable and what's game breaking.
as a kind of extreem example: I could see taking 'Sacred Vow' make sense for an Eidolon depending on back story, why do you think he's serving the summoner? But to allow a creature who spends most of it's time on another plane, and can't really own equipment (it falls to the ground) Vow of Poverty just kind of breaks it.
Granted i'm using an example of a feat that's often case by case ruled, but that's also the point.
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Wish raises one stat at the cost of lowering another. If you wish to do this - and the monster ALLOWS you to do this as this ability is generally one the wisher uses upon himself (and remember this creature doesn't spend all it's time on the material plane!) - I don't see why you couldn't. Whether or not the eidolon agrees would be a GM matter, and it would be entirely possible the monster would not desire this.
Uh... What? Looking at the Wish spell on PRD, it says nothing about reducing an ability score when you grant an inherent bonus to one. Is this some rule for inherent bonuses that is not listed under the actual spell?
I dont like the idea of them using tomes. There is a deliberate cap on them using magic items. The tomes or manuals are just an expensive way around that.
And that very large expense is precisely the balance inherent in the method. Those tomes/wishes cost a very large sum of money. In return, you get a relatively modest improvement in your minion that tends to be dramatically weaker than most magic gear in comparison to the price.
hmm just had visions of Vow of Poverty eidolons dancing in my head.
please please tell me they can't take that feat. (while trying to find his own book to double check).
-S
I dont like the idea of them using tomes. There is a deliberate cap on them using magic items. The tomes or manuals are just an expensive way around that.And that very large expense is precisely the balance inherent in the method. Those tomes/wishes cost a very large sum of money. In return, you get a relatively modest improvement in your minion that tends to be dramatically weaker than most magic gear in comparison to the price.
It is but its an end run around an existing restriction on enhancing your eidolon. You cannot load up your eidolon with magic gear, and for good reason (Max out nat armor evolution, improved natural armor feat and +5 full plate and you have mr unhittable the eidolon).
If eidolons were allowed free use of magic gear i wouldnt have problem with tomes. But if the focus of the class is on the eidolon, the summoner does not have to spend much on himself (heck in the end he can completely protect himself in the eidolon), and cannot load the eidolon with normal magic items, so that means he has alot of gold left over making the price of the tomes less of a hit.
It is but its an end run around an existing restriction on enhancing your eidolon. You cannot load up your eidolon with magic gear, and for good reason (Max out nat armor evolution, improved natural armor feat and +5 full plate and you have mr unhittable the eidolon).
If eidolons were allowed free use of magic gear i wouldnt have problem with tomes. But if the focus of the class is on the eidolon, the summoner does not have to spend much on himself (heck in the end he can completely protect himself in the eidolon), and cannot load the eidolon with normal magic items, so that means he has alot of gold left over making the price of the tomes less of a hit.
It's no more an end run around restrictions than the war domain Cleric using that greatsword. "Cannot use A, B, or C," does not mean it's cheating to use D, E, or F. D, E, and F are still perfectly legal, after all, and looking at the actual effects, not remotely gamebreaking. Even +2 costs a tremendous amount of money, after all, and by level 20, that +2 really doesn't mean a whole lot.
Eidolons may have limited conventional equipment available to them, but it's still substantial and powerful, and it's still oftentimes capable of granting benefits at a far greater rate of return than the tomes.
A Summoner may not strictly need as much money to equip herself, and may be able to spend more on her eidolon, but she still has a hefty stack of items she can buy for her little extraplanar tentacle demon and if she skimps on her own magical swag too much, she's making massive sacrifices and opening up major weaknesses that deserve a significant return. That some portion of the money may grant +1-3 to a single stat is a petty distinction.
It's no more an end run around restrictions than the war domain Cleric using that greatsword. "Cannot use A, B, or C," does not mean it's cheating to use D, E, or F. D, E, and F are still perfectly legal, after all, and looking at the actual effects, not remotely gamebreaking. Even +2 costs a tremendous amount of money, after all, and by level 20, that +2 really doesn't mean a whole lot.Eidolons may have limited conventional equipment available to them, but it's still substantial and powerful, and it's still oftentimes capable of granting benefits at a far greater rate of return than the tomes.
A Summoner may not strictly need as much money to equip herself, and may be able to spend more on her eidolon, but she still has a hefty stack of items she can buy for her little extraplanar tentacle demon and if she skimps on her own magical swag too much, she's making massive sacrifices and opening up major weaknesses that deserve a significant return. That some portion of the money may grant +1-3 to a single stat is a petty distinction.
I never meant to say it was cheating. Obviously its within the rules as they are now. I am simply saying I dont think its a good idea. The eidolon already has the ability to increase its stats and can be given a stat item. Adding in tomes and wish is hazerdous to balance.
Anything outside core is going to be purely GM fiat. VoP is a whole different case and outside of the core rules. I am more interested in the tomes and wish aspect. Or actually, in general dumping wealth into the eidolon. It seems like it's balanced around the idea that it has no items/ equipment and adding equipment quickly throws it for a loop.
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Yes I require that VoP requires DM sayso which was the point of my example.
As i said 'an extreem example' but an example none the less. It illustrates quite well that some things should be juged by the DM in regards to balance for the campaign they're running.
Wishes / Tomes / permanant effects, I feel would fall into the same category.
one could also argue 'no' because the creature isn't actually here, but yes if you 'call' the creature rather than summon it.. apply the effects, then banish it back to it's home.
I guess a related question. If a eidolon gets hit with ability damage or negative levels does that persist after you dismiss it and resummon it?
In general I'm starting to think that no lasting effects should remain on the eidolon. The fact that all hit point damage is removed when you re-summon him makes me think the Eidolon's form on this plane is transient and that if you boost or damage the eidolon that goes away when the eidolon returns to his native plane (and presumably native form).
In general I'm starting to think that no lasting effects should remain on the eidolon. The fact that all hit point damage is removed when you re-summon him makes me think the Eidolon's form on this plane is transient and that if you boost or damage the eidolon that goes away when the eidolon returns to his native plane (and presumably native form).
This is the approach I'm taking, until Jason or the official rules clarify otherwise.