How would you rule this?
Transmute Rock to Mud underneath a couple monsters you're fighting, followed up with a Quickened Transmute Mud to Rock. Would it effectively trap the monsters in solid rock? How would you guys rule the system for that would work?
I can't see why that wouldn't work.
As long as it is natural, unmagical and unworked stone and the creatures fail their reflex saves, I'd rule that they get stuck. Maybe not sucked completely down, but probably ankle- or knee-deep, depending on the weight and size of the creature.
After that, it is a simple matter of breaking the stone to escape again, under the rules given for damaging objects.
There is nothing in the description of Transmute Rock to Mud that would indicate the creatures would not have time to sink. In fact a portion of the description makes it clear that this is one of several specific intents for use of this spell. TRtM specifically states that creatures sink to their waist or hips in the mud.
If you did cast the spell on the ceiling of the cave above the enemies it would cause mud and rock to fall onto the enemies causing 8d6 of bludgeoning damage (half damage for successful reflex save) and covering the enemies in 5' of mud.
Either way the enemies would experience the effects of the first spell immediately either sinking up to their waists in mud or being covered in 5' of mud from the ceiling.
Transmute Mud to Rock specifically grants creatures trapped in the targeted mud a reflex save to escape the mud before it hardens. If they fail that save then they would be either stuck up to their waists in solid rock or they would be trapped in the 5' layer of mud that fell on them and then was turned to rock. Either way if they fail the save it would end the fight.
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Your assumption here is that the spells go off seperately, but really it is pretty close to instantaneous if you have a quickened TMtR. There is no time to sink sufficiently, hence my ruling is that they would be allowed a chance to save in such quick succession.
This is clearly a case of GM fiat, unless there is a section of the rules that have rules on sinking in mud. Hehe, I'd love to see a mud-mancer character concept now!
And likewise your assumption is that the spells go of in the exact same instant in time. Even if the caster used the Quickened Spell right after his Standard Action spell it would not be instant. And your whole stance that it is 'too soon' can be faulted by the fact that the caster could just as easily cast his Standard Action spell, then take his Move Action, then at the end of his turn cast his Quickened Spell. That would put about 3 seconds between spells but have ultimately the same effect. So if your assumption can be countered by simply placing a Move Action between spells to add enough time to sink sufficiently than I think it isn't much of an argument. Perhaps you are correct in saying that they would not have time to sink up to their hips, but let me ask you this: When you step into deep, soupy mud how long does it take to sink into it at least up to your shins or knees? It happens pretty much the instant you put weight on that foot, it certainly doesn't take more than 3 seconds. Likewise the instant you turn rock into mud the enemy's weight will force him to sink into the mud. If the mud is soupy enough to allow someone to sink up to their waist or chest in a single round then it is certainly soupy enough to allow them to sink up to their shins or knees in the space of 2 or 3 seconds.
So, you are saying that I base my decision on assumptions and lack of sinking rules. Not at all, I am basing my decision on the descriptions of the spells and not adding my own opinions. You are in fact the one assuming that the spells would not interact in exactly the manner it seems they were meant to interact in and you are inserting opinion that it would happen too soon when there is no rule you can point to that says the enemy didn’t have time to sink sufficiently. Furthermore your opinion and assumption is punishing Player ingenuity which, IMO is always a bad thing unless you can point to a rule in the book to say: According to this I can’t let you do that.
Well, the spell description says "A creature unable to levitate, fly, or otherwise free itself from the mud sinks until hip- or chest-deep...", and makes no specification about how quick this happens (we assume it happens somewhere during a round).
We could argue that the rock turns into mud progressively through the spellcast (thus, it takes a standard action -the casting time-, for them to actually sink chest-deep). Henceforth, I would say that there is time between the casting of a normal Rock to Mud and the casting of a Quickened Mud to Rock for the creatures to sink chest-deep or hip-deep, depending on things like size and shape.
There is no real way for us to know the exact consistency of the mud, but given that they sink pretty fast (less than 6 seconds), we can assume it is very liquid.
In any case, I would allow it. I usually try to be flexible when faced with the creative use of game mechanics (unless I notice that something is broken).
By the rules it works. They say nothing about time. You fail the save and suffer the affects. I am sure you could not cast fireball, and protection from energy to avoid a fireball you dropped on yourself as an example.
I think its a smart combo, and it uses a higher level spell slot. If it becomes an issue give them flying enemies or use the tactic against them.
It's a feasible (and useful) tactic. I was using this back in second edition, though without quickened spell it took teamwork with a second spellcaster.
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Dork lord, I imagine it depends on your play style.
For my games, the world's physics work like the normal world, excepting the cases where magic effects are applied. In this case, transmute rock to mud creates normal, goopy mud. People will sink into it, but it will probably take about six seconds.
See, that's what I mean about play style. There's nothing in the spell description that says sinking takes a round, but that's the way I envision the spell working, and that's the way it works in my games. But you may decide, as Shadowlord, that a clever use of game mechanics might trump physics. (After all, blue dragons can fly.)
So, I would skip the quickened meta-magic, and just transmute the mud back to stone the next round.
For my games, the world's physics work like the normal world, excepting the cases where magic effects are applied.
You mean like how magic is affecting the rock and turning it instantly into soupy mud? It seems like the magic is having a pretty direct effect on physics in this spell.
People will sink into it, but it will probably take about six seconds.
Based on what? You say you are basing your opinion on physics but show me a 10' deep pit of mud that is soupy enough that a full grown man would sink up to his chest. Step into that mud pit and tell me how long it takes to sink at least up to your knees because that is all it would take for the Transmute Mud to Rock spell to work and trap the enemies. I seriously doubt it would take 6 seconds, I bet you would be up to your waist in goop before you count to 2.
But you may decide, as Shadowlord, that a clever use of game mechanics might trump physics.
Thank you for that summary of my argument, now if you would kindly show me what formula in physics prevents a man from sinking into soupy mud before the 6 second mark I would be most interested.
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In fact by that approximation of the rules this spell would never affect anyone until the caster's next initiative count rolled around. TRtM happens immediately, what I mean is that there is no delay time listed in the spell, so you cast it and people sink and instantly they are under the effects of the spell.
You are saying it takes a full 6 seconds to sink into the mud. That is a full round measured from one initiative count all the way back to that same initiative count in the next round.
So, in essence if the caster goes first and casts TRtM on the stone beneath his enemies it would not affect them until his initiative count on the next round. That means that when it was the enemy's turn he could simply walk out and avoid the mud spot for the rest of combat because he hasn't had time to sink yet. Why, because his turn represents his actions during the same 6 seconds as the caster's turn, all within the same round.
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For my games, the world's physics work like the normal world, excepting the cases where magic effects are applied.
You mean like how magic is affecting the rock and turning it instantly into soupy mud? It seems like the magic is having a pretty direct effect on physics in this spell.
Hi, Shadowlord. I answered that in my next sentence. The magic turns the stone into goopy mud. But once that happens, it acts like plain old mud.
People will sink into it, but it will probably take about six seconds.
Based on what? You say you are basing your opinion on physics but show me a 10' deep pit of mud that is soupy enough that a full grown man would sink up to his chest.
See, I'm thinking goopy mud, about the consistency of thick oatmeal or quicksand, or a riverbank during a heavy rainstorm. You're thinking "soupy", like a very muddy lake. You see someone stepping into the mud and immediately sinking up to his waist, where he stabilizes. I see someone sinking more slowly than that.
Part of it is aesthetics. When a caster throws transmute rock to mud in my campaign, I want the resulting mud to be thick enough to still resemble the rock formations, just suddenly oozier. Stalactites should still look like muddy stalactites, at least for a short time. Rocks, outcroppings, and depressions should still be visible, but much softer. If the mud were watery enough to drop a gnome up to her chest instantly, I would expect to see the features of the landscape flow to a uniform pool.
In fact by that [interpretation] of the rules this spell would never affect anyone until the caster's next initiative count rolled around. TRtM happens immediately, what I mean is that there is no delay time listed in the spell, so you cast it and people sink and instantly they are under the effects of the spell.
Agreed. I just see a difference between "under the effects" and "having reached the equilibrium point". If you cast transmute rock to mud at my table, people know it immediately. If your ally cast transmute mud to rock right afterwards, any people caught in the area of effect would be caught, up to their ankles or knees, depending on the weight they were carrying. They might be able to move five feet before they were sunk to their waists or chests.
You are saying it takes a full 6 seconds to sink into the mud. That is a full round measured from one initiative count all the way back to that same initiative count in the next round.
So, in essence if the caster goes first and casts TRtM on the stone beneath his enemies it would not affect them until his initiative count on the next round. That means that when it was the enemy's turn he could simply walk out and avoid the mud spot for the rest of combat because he hasn't had time to sink...
That's not my interpretation at all. I'm not advocating that the people caught in the mud experience a six-second delay, and then a sudden plunge.
See, I'm thinking goopy mud, about the consistency of thick oatmeal or quicksand, or a riverbank during a heavy rainstorm.
It sounds to me like you are envisioning a pit of thick cement mix.
The three things you used are not alike. I am not sure what kind of oatmeal you eat but if I were to find myself in a pit of the oatmeal I am used to eating I believe I would vanish pretty quickly, or at least be up to my knees in no time at all.
As far as quicksand that is up to interpretation as well. There is the quicksand like in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull which is quite slow like you are saying and sped up by struggling, but that is also dry sand with a sort of air pocket underneath. I envision something a bit more along the lines of the muddy quicksand pit that the soldier falls into in the Disney movie 'The Jungle Book' released in 1994. This seems more in line with the spell description IMO.
I have never seen a riverbank during heavy rain that a man could possibly sink up to their chest in, maybe up to your knees. I am not assuming such a thing might not exist, I am saying I have no way of comparing it to anything.
You're thinking "soupy", like a very muddy lake. You see someone stepping into the mud and immediately sinking up to his waist, where he stabilizes. I see someone sinking more slowly than that.
Part of it is aesthetics.
What this tells me is that it is ultimately less about physics and more about what consistency of mud you chose to envision.
When a caster throws transmute rock to mud in my campaign, I want the resulting mud to be thick enough to still resemble the rock formations, just suddenly oozier. Stalactites should still look like muddy stalactites, at least for a short time. Rocks, outcroppings, and depressions should still be visible, but much softer.
Yet that is not what the spell describes. If the mud is watery enough for a man to sink up to his chest than it is not going to hold its original shape. There is nothing in the spell that even hints at how long it takes a creature to sink all the way. When you cast the spell they are instantly under the effects (meaning: sinks until hip- or chest-deep, reducing its speed to 5 feet and causing a –2 penalty on attack rolls and AC) so, whether they are up to their chest or only up to their ankles the TMtR is still going to potentially end the fight.
I just see a difference between "under the effects" and "having reached the equilibrium point". If you cast transmute rock to mud at my table, people know it immediately.
Again, this seems less about physics and more about how you envision the consistency of the mud. At any rate, any mud I can think of that is watery enough to accommodate a man sinking up to his chest is watery enough that you would sink up to your mid-shins or knees almost instantly. From that point maybe it would be slower. The point being a TMtR spell is still going to trap you up to, at least, the mid-shin in stone.
If your ally cast transmute mud to rock right afterwards, any people caught in the area of effect would be caught, up to their ankles or knees, depending on the weight they were carrying.
It really doesn't make sense to me that you would allow this but not allow the same caster to use both spells in the same turn and let it work the same. You do realize that in 'game reality' it is basically the same. A round represents 6 seconds. The turn represents what each individual could do in that total 6 seconds. So if one caster uses TRtM in his turn and the next uses TMtR in his turn but they are both in the same round then in 'game reality' they are casting at the same time, during the same 6 second period, perhaps even in the same instant. The point is all those actions are happening at roughly the same time within a single span of 6 seconds of combat. So ultimately it amounts to almost the exact same amount of 'in game reality' time as it would if the same caster used both spells in his turn.
That's not my interpretation at all. I'm not advocating that the people caught in the mud experience a six-second delay, and then a sudden plunge.
What type of delay are you advocating? Because if they sink at all in the first 2 seconds than they have had plenty of time to potentially be trapped by a TMtR spell. Even if they only sink to their ankles they could end up trapped with their feet anchored in stone. The only way this spell combo wouldn’t work is if when the TMtR spell went off and the enemies were still somehow standing on the surface of the mud. Otherwise they get their normal Reflex Save to avoid being caught and if they fail they are trapped.
Question, and thank you all for the serious discussion about this combo... what's the basis for allowing a Reflex Save at all? I realize that for game balance there must be a save, but say Monster X (who can't fly) sinks 2-5 feet into the 10 foot deep mud when TRtM is cast, and cast over an area (radius) that exceeds the monster's base movement. When the Quickened TMtR goes off and they get their Reflex Save let's say they succeed. How do you describe this in game? They couldn't have moved out of the area of the spell and since there's still 5 feet+ of mud beneath them, there's nothing to push off of to jump up and out of the mud. Realistically, anything would be trapped... the laws of physics prevent anything that can't fly from escaping. So how does a character or monster that saved get clear?
Question, and thank you all for the serious discussion about this combo... what's the basis for allowing a Reflex Save at all? I realize that for game balance there must be a save, but say Monster X (who can't fly) sinks 2-5 feet into the 10 foot deep mud when TRtM is cast, and cast over an area (radius) that exceeds the monster's base movement. When the Quickened TMtR goes off and they get their Reflex Save let's say they succeed. How do you describe this in game? They couldn't have moved out of the area of the spell and since there's still 5 feet+ of mud beneath them, there's nothing to push off of to jump up and out of the mud. Realistically, anything would be trapped... the laws of physics prevent anything that can't fly from escaping. So how does a character or monster that saved get clear?
When the rock changes to mud maybe the weight of the character on the area forces them to sink quickly. If they happen to redistribute their weight at the moment of casting they dont sink. Once you have made that save you are able to avoid sinking.
Of course you may need some suspension of belief to accept that, but it sounds plausible enough, considering all the other things that happen in D&D.
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Question, and thank you all for the serious discussion about this combo... what's the basis for allowing a Reflex Save at all? I realize that for game balance there must be a save, but say Monster X (who can't fly) sinks 2-5 feet into the 10 foot deep mud when TRtM is cast, and cast over an area (radius) that exceeds the monster's base movement. When the Quickened TMtR goes off and they get their Reflex Save let's say they succeed. How do you describe this in game? They couldn't have moved out of the area of the spell and since there's still 5 feet+ of mud beneath them, there's nothing to push off of to jump up and out of the mud. Realistically, anything would be trapped... the laws of physics prevent anything that can't fly from escaping. So how does a character or monster that saved get clear?When the rock changes to mud maybe the weight of the character on the area forces them to sink quickly. If they happen to redistribute their weight at the moment of casting they dont sink. Once you have made that save you are able to avoid sinking.
Of course you may need some suspension of belief to accept that, but it sounds plausible enough, considering all the other things that happen in D&D.
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Suspension of Disbelief for the win!
"How did you dodge that flaming ball of magma that filled the entire castle?"
"Well when you are a rogue as skilled as I, you merely move out of the way..."
Don't forget the next spell you should cast on the following round...
Transmute Rock to Lava!
Or, if you want to get really nasty, Stone to Flesh!
"Good Heavens, I'm trapped in a massive cube of underground baloney!"
I'd allow this as written in the RAW as a DM.
Creatures sink, second spell goes off, creatures get trapped in stone.
The effect really isn't game breaking for a 9th level (quickened rock to mud) and a 5th level spell slot. It's also pretty situational in that it won't work in a lot of outdoor settings and that transmute rock to mud doesn't affect worked stone. Finally it doesn't do much more then transmute rock to mud to begin with, they're already trapped by the first spell, the second spell just makes it much harder to get out of and would prevent the 'creatures large enough to walk on the bottom' exemption for obvious reasons.
As to suspended disbelief I don't find it all to unbelievable. Sinking in mud is pretty much instantaneous and I can easily imagine 'falling up to my waist' in less then a second if the stone beneath my feet was suddenly mud.
But that's my opinion and obviously each DM will have to decide for themselves.
As to how 'killer' a combo it is. From a player perspective I think you can do something better with a quickened spell and a standard action 95% of the time once you have 9th level spells available.
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As to how 'killer' a combo it is. From a player perspective I think you can do something better with a quickened spell and a standard action 95% of the time once you have 9th level spells available.
You sure can, but the quickened aspect of the transmute mud to rock is what's elevating the level to 9th level. If you can get two characters to cast the two spells in concert, you're dealing with two 5th-level spells.
Most of the times I've seen very big dragons fight in caves, they don't use their wings to fly. (Some exceptions, I'll grant you.) So, picture an enormous, ancient dragon, awakening from her years-long slumber as a plucky band of 9th-level hooligans come bursting into her ante-lair. Filled with fury, she's about to charge and eat one of them. How inconvenienced should she be when the two wizards cast a pair of spells at her?
Most of the times I've seen very big dragons fight in caves, they don't use their wings to fly. (Some exceptions, I'll grant you.) So, picture an enormous, ancient dragon, awakening from her years-long slumber as a plucky band of 9th-level hooligans come bursting into her ante-lair. Filled with fury, she's about to charge and eat one of them. How inconvenienced should she be when the two wizards cast a pair of spells at her?
Using your specific example the dragon can avoid this effect if it's able to fly at all in the cave. The spell description for TRtM says any creature unable to fly immediately sinks. Otherwise the dragon is allowed a Reflex save to avoid being trapped by the TMtR. I'd also allow other more inventive ways of avoiding this fate outright, such as a feather fall to slow my sinking to the six seconds or whatever you suggested earlier (which honestly if I was a huge flying creature would be one of the first spells I'd learn regardless of what the Bestiary says are my spells known.)
Something I think we've all missed here though is that TRtM is a permanent effect, it's not instantaneous, meaning this combo works just as easily with TRtM and a quickened dispel magic, though I'd allow the same saving throw to avoid being trapped that TMtR allows in such a situation.
Most of the times I've seen very big dragons fight in caves, they don't use their wings to fly. (Some exceptions, I'll grant you.) So, picture an enormous, ancient dragon, awakening from her years-long slumber as a plucky band of 9th-level hooligans come bursting into her ante-lair. Filled with fury, she's about to charge and eat one of them. How inconvenienced should she be when the two wizards cast a pair of spells at her?
You mean like the type of ancient dragon who can cast Dimension Door and/or Polymorph as a sorcerer? I would say an ancient dragon of any species would not be slowed for long by this spell combo. The only species of evil dragons that does not have one or both of these spells available to it by the ancient age is the White Dragon and they would likely not be found in a stone cavern anyway since they tend to live in snow and ice.
Even if a dragon did get sucked down into the mud and have to brute force its way out it could use the rules for Breaking Objects and it would not be long before the dragon was free considering their tremendous strength.
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And your whole stance that it is 'too soon' can be faulted by the fact that the caster could just as easily cast his Standard Action spell, then take his Move Action, then at the end of his turn cast his Quickened Spell.
But that isn't the order that we were discussing was it? It was TRtM then QTMtR, with no move action in between. If you let them have time, then the spell functions normally without interference.
I'm not telling you that you have to play the game any way that I dictate, you can do whatever you want. I'm just saying I would allow a reflex save for use of such a combo. Its a house rule, and an example of GM discretion.
Look for the episode of mythbusters involving killer quicksand, and you'll see why I would allow a saving throw for sinking.
Edit: Here is a link to the results and why
episode 19
But that isn't the order that we were discussing was it?
I never said it was the order. What I said was that if your argument can be broken by mixing the order of actions taken in a turn then it is a poor argument. It would be like saying your player can Attack and then Move but he can’t Move and then Attack.
It was TRtM then QTMtR, with no move action in between. If you let them have time, then the spell functions normally without interference.
I see nothing in the spell description that talks about an onset time or a delay for the effects to take hold.
I'm not telling you that you have to play the game any way that I dictate, you can do whatever you want.
I am aware that your opinion won't affect my game.
I'm just saying I would allow a reflex save for use of such a combo. Its a house rule, and an example of GM discretion.
You mean like the reflex saves already written into the spell descriptions?
Look for the episode of mythbusters involving killer quicksand, and you'll see why I would allow a saving throw for sinking.
I am sure it is very interesting but the spell is not transmute rock into quicksand and if it was then the spell would actually be much worse since the game actually does have mechanics for quicksand and they are a lot nastier than those of this spell:
Quicksand: Patches of quicksand present a deceptively solid appearance (appearing as undergrowth or open land) that might trap careless characters. A character approaching a patch of quicksand at a normal pace is entitled to a DC 8 Survival check to spot the danger before stepping in, but charging or running characters don't have a chance to detect a hidden patch before blundering into it. A typical patch of quicksand is 20 feet in diameter; the momentum of a charging or running character carries him 1d2 × 5 feet into the quicksand.
Effects of Quicksand: Characters in quicksand must make a DC 10 Swim check every round to simply tread water in place, or a DC 15 Swim check to move 5 feet in whatever direction is desired. If a trapped character fails this check by 5 or more, he sinks below the surface and begins to drown whenever he can no longer hold his breath (see the Swim skill description in Using Skills).
Characters below the surface of quicksand may swim back to the surface with a successful Swim check (DC 15, +1 per consecutive round of being under the surface).
Rescue: Pulling out a character trapped in quicksand can be difficult. A rescuer needs a branch, spear haft, rope, or similar tool that enables him to reach the victim with one end of it. Then he must make a DC 15 Strength check to successfully pull the victim, and the victim must make a DC 10 Strength check to hold onto the branch, pole, or rope. If both checks succeed, the victim is pulled 5 feet closer to safety. If the victim fails to hold on, he must make a DC 15 Swim check immediately to stay above the surface.
Your assumption here is that the spells go off seperately, but really it is pretty close to instantaneous if you have a quickened TMtR. There is no time to sink sufficiently, hence my ruling is that they would be allowed a chance to save in such quick succession.
This is clearly a case of GM fiat, unless there is a section of the rules that have rules on sinking in mud. Hehe, I'd love to see a mud-mancer character concept now!
[Threadjack] This conversation is mighty disturbing considering last night I had a dream that we were having church in a cornfield (don't ask.. I have no idea) and I sank in mud over my head and woke up in an ambulence. [/threadjack] Anyways, you typically get a reflex save to avoid something like mud becoming stone around your feet. If you fail you would be trapped and have to break your way out.
[Threadjack] This conversation is mighty disturbing considering last night I had a dream that we were having church in a cornfield (don't ask.. I have no idea) and I sank in mud over my head and woke up in an ambulence. [/threadjack]
That’s messed up, good luck with that.
Anyways, you typically get a reflex save to avoid something like mud becoming stone around your feet. If you fail you would be trapped and have to break your way out.
Not sure if you were just being sarcastic and already know this or not but that very thing is written into the TMtR spell description. You do get a Reflex Save to avoid being trapped in the stone.
[Threadjack] This conversation is mighty disturbing considering last night I had a dream that we were having church in a cornfield (don't ask.. I have no idea) and I sank in mud over my head and woke up in an ambulence. [/threadjack]That’s messed up, good luck with that.
Anyways, you typically get a reflex save to avoid something like mud becoming stone around your feet. If you fail you would be trapped and have to break your way out.Not sure if you were just being sarcastic and already know this or not but that very thing is written into the TMtR spell description. You do get a Reflex Save to avoid being trapped in the stone.
Thanks :)
I wasn't being sarcastic, I thought I remembered that, but I didn't want to look it up :)