d8 Hit Die for Summoner?


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


Why is the Summoner a d8 hit die?
Their whole schtick is getting their minion(s) to fight for them. Where does that lead to them having combat know-how on par with a Rogue or Cleric, as opposed to a Sorceror? And likewise for the Light Armor proficiency. Why should Summoners get it but not Sorcerors? I don't get a Bard-like feel with Summoners at all to justify this.

The class just doesn't seem about fighting on it's own AT ALL, so in any case these are mostly wasted beyond a better CMD score than Sorcerors. Ultimately this is a minor bit, but it seems like even a secondary focus on personal combat is the EXACT OPPOSITE to the class theme...


Summoners have a d8 hit die to match their BAB, which is medium. If you've noticed, pathfinder equalized the BAB & HD ratio- low BAB is a d6, medium BAB is a d8, and full BAB is a d10. Only a few iconic classes (Dragon Disciple & Barbarian) exceed this with a d12.


Sure, I sortof abbreviated HD and BAB, since they generally match up now in PRPG.
But I don't see the rationale for giving them the HD/BAB they have, they don't have any reason to fight themselves, that's what their Eidolon and Summons are for.


If you want a non-metagaming reason, I don't have much.

But metagaming? Summoners are much more likely to be in combat (not necessarily by their choice) because of the range limitation of the Eidolon. I don't foresee any Summoner letting their Eidolon get further than about 80ish feet from them without major thought. (I say 80, because you never know about bull rushes and stuff - and not only on the Eidolon.)


Quandary wrote:
Their whole schtick is getting their minion(s) to fight for them.

It is? I must have missed the memo.

Silver Crusade

You realize that when the eidolon gets low, the summoner will have to start spending his own HP to stop it from dying (Life Link class feature), right?


Scottbert wrote:
You realize that when the eidolon gets low, the summoner will have to start spending his own HP to stop it from dying (Life Link class feature), right?

The eidolon starts out with more HPs than anybody, and keeps up for the most part with it's d10 HD, only falling behind at the highest levels. It doesn't seem any more fragile than the Fighter or Ranger.


No but you can feed it Hp at a 1 per 1 rate to keep it up. So if it really needs 3 more hp ya can feed it and keep it from going poof long enough to get it healed

Also much like a druid, cleric or bard this class is expected to be in the thick of the fighting. More so then a wizard. I myself Like the ideal of him being able to hold his own near his pet


Quandary wrote:
The eidolon starts out with more HPs than anybody, and keeps up for the most part with it's d10 HD, only falling behind at the highest levels. It doesn't seem any more fragile than the Fighter or Ranger.

The Eidolon doesn't get the maximized first hit die that characters do and only has a +1 con bonus, so it actually doesn't get more hit points than anybody. In fact, most full BAB characters will have more hit points than it does.


Zurai wrote:


Eidolon doesn't get the maximized first hit die that characters do and only has a +1 con bonus, so it actually doesn't get more hit points than anybody. In fact, most full BAB characters will have more hit points than it does.

I was thinking this as well, like the druid animal companion average HD right?

Edit: Be 12 hp correct? 5.5 per HD round down, so 5x2 +1 from con per level


It depends on table rules, but assuming people do either average hp or rolls, the "expected" hit points for a level 1 Summoner's Eidolon is 13. Barbarians will always exceed that (maximized d12 and who only takes a +1 con as a barbarian?) and most fighters, paladins, and melee rangers will at least equal it.

EDIT: And, hell, for that matter my Summoner for the PbP game I'm playing had 12 hit points at first level (8 hit die, 3 con, 1 favored class).


OK, if the d10 Eidolon is pitifully weak and needs to be propped up by the Summoner's own HP, that might be some argument for d8 HD. But why the BAB? Wouldn't this situation call out for mismatched Poor BAB/d8 HD then? Why the Armor Proficiency/ ASF immunity?


No BAB/HD match in pathfinder. He is meant to be in the fight much like a druid,cleric and bard. Why do they get a 3/4th BAB? The ASF immunity is the same as the bard.

He has a small list, he trains with it, he is not immune past light, even if he takes a feat


As seeker mentioned, the class is intended to be mixing it up more than wizards and sorcerers do. That's why they get light armor, 3/4 BAB, and a d8 hit die. It's also why the Eidolon has abilities that protect the summoner, but only when the summoner is within its reach. You're supposed to be right up there with your Eidolon. Or, at least, that's supposed to be a supported playstyle (I imagine sitting back and cheerleading is as well, with all the buffs they get).


I guess I just see in actual games ALL PCs are usually within 100' of each other the vast majority of the time, which makes the limitation (to not drop Eidolon HPs) nothing out of the ordinary... I just don't get the feeling Summoners REALLY should be qualifying for Vital Strike faster than Sorcerors or Conjurers. /shrug

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

There's always the fact that a summoner can make his eidolon a mount or a shield maiden. With d8 HD and 3/4 BAB, the class can be used to make a respectable dragon rider or a pair of skirmishers that fight in tandem. With a d6 HD and 1/2 BAB, not so much.


I actually really agree that the summoner's hit die should be knocked down and peg. The only reason I can see for its d8 is the life-link ability. As it stands, though, the summoner seems to have the greatest capacity of any character to stay out of combat. The Eidolon has more hit die than characters of the same level and the summoner can likely summon up to 8 monsters to do his bidding; why would he ever need to fight?

I feel that the higher hit die and BAB of the summoner is helpful for making the summoner a more diverse character class. However, it is really unbalanced. To test this, roll up a witch and then roll up a summoner; the difference in power potential is pretty staggering.


I agree that Summoner should only be a d6 HP. Let's think about this...

The level 1 Eidolon, as said, will have 13 HP. This is comparable to the front line characters. And then the Summoner has about 10. With Life Link, this means that a level 1 Eidolon/Summoner combo, assuming the Summoner is in a good defensive position, has 23 HP. Now, I know, you can just attack the summoner, but a smart summoner will make that difficult for you.

Let's say this again: Focusing just on the Eidolon, it takes 36 HP of damage to kill it. Now, granted, the Eidolon is still taken out of the combat at 14 points of damage, but why is it necessary to consider Life Link in the Summoner's HP calculation? The Eidolon has plenty of HP and a solid enough Con that it's not going to be just randomly dying too much... And even if it does, it comes back at the start of the next DAY. The Fighter and Barbarian don't get the benefit of being "expendable."

Now, as far as the HD and BAB making the Summoner competent in melee, such as a mounted warrior...

...No, it doesn't. As someone who has been playing Bards since 3.0 was new, I can safely tell you that 3/4 BAB and Light Armor does not make you competent in melee unless your other class features aid it. A level 10 Summoner can gain 2 evolutions, and more at higher levels, but other than that, the only way to not be hilariously bad in melee with this class is to dump all your feats into combat skills. This may feel viable, but after a certain point, my years of Bard experience have told me that unless you've turned yourself into some sort of crazy trip-monkey with massive dex and the ability to use dex on your CMB, casting Grease is almost always better than attacking a foe who actually poses a threat. (Against kobolds, go nuts with your pointed stick.)

If the Summoner is supposed to be melee competent, it needs a higher Aspect pool and it needs to happen earlier. If the Summoner is not supposed to be melee competent, drop its HD to d6 and BAB to 1/2 HD.

If you DO want Summoners to be melee competent, I propose this:
Give the Summoner bardic weapon proficiency. Longsword is a solid weapon, as is Rapier, and there's something perfect about someone with a giant wolf using a Whip.


Adam Teles wrote:

Now, as far as the HD and BAB making the Summoner competent in melee, such as a mounted warrior...

...No, it doesn't.

Of course it does.

It was the second biggest reason for the reduction in Cleric armor proficiency.

Don't you know that 3/4 BAB and d8 HD make you nearly a god on the battlefield?

Silver Crusade

Look at the full class and you will see why. 3/4BAB 1D8 and bard casting list. This is what thay used as there base for game balance. if thay where droped to 1/2BAB 1D6HP and Sorcerer casting. wold this be balanced? No this wold be way over powered. Just my two cence.


Quandary wrote:
I guess I just see in actual games ALL PCs are usually within 100' of each other the vast majority of the time, which makes the limitation (to not drop Eidolon HPs) nothing out of the ordinary... I just don't get the feeling Summoners REALLY should be qualifying for Vital Strike faster than Sorcerors or Conjurers. /shrug

because sorcerors and conjurers have a faster spell progression and higher level spells?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Adam Teles wrote:
Now, as far as the HD and BAB making the Summoner competent in melee, such as a mounted warrior...

He's not a mounted warrior. He's a guy who can ride a dragon without immediately being dropped by any area attack that a competent spellcaster would toss at an attacking dragon.

Having a really cool mount that's supposed to fight on your behalf while you buff it and cancel attacks against it using Mounted Combat doesn't work if any area of effect spell that scratches your mount immediately drops you unconscious.


Thanks for bringing up something I forgot to Adam: their weapons proficiency list.

Giving them medium BAB is a joke if they only have simple weapons.
Bards at least have an array of weapons that give a viable route to combat SUPPORT (whips, as mentioned, rapiers, bows, etc).
I just see it as: is the Medium BAB actually enhancing the function/role of this character? IMHO, NO.
It's a red herring that would require allocating tons of Feats to do something completely extraneous to their schtick. I don't think they actually have a lack of spells or spell levels when their Summon SLAs are taken into account (esp. if they do end up with something like +CHA round duration, which I think is probable, the value of those Summons SLAs is larger than the same level Summon Monster).

I guess I'm fine with the Light Armor Proficiency/ASF immunity, given their reduced spell list would allow them to focus on ways to cast THOSE SPELLS in light armor easier than a Sorceror whose breadth of spells (and gestures) is much larger.

...I never saw the word "Mount" anywhere in the Summoner's description, though they end up supernaturally riding INSIDE the Eidolon if they want. But there doesn't seem to be any 'mounted warrior' flavor whatsoever - they're an occult pet class with buffing and summoning spells.


Quandary wrote:

Thanks for bringing up something I forgot to Adam: their weapons proficiency list.

Giving them medium BAB is a joke if they only have simple weapons.

Tell that to the cleric. There are some good options in simple weapons Heavy mace, spear and long spear come to mind as do crossbows for range and damage


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Tell that to the cleric. There are some good options in simple weapons Heavy mace, spear and long spear come to mind as do crossbows for range and damage

And Clerics don't really become useful in melee until they start casting buffs on themselves.


And Summoners just happen to have a whole bunch of nice self-buffs. Gee, amazing, that.


Logically, there's no reason the summoner needs 3/4 and a D8, but, in terms of game mechanics, they kind of do.

Mounted combat and crossbow support are both playstyles the summoner is meant to support. It's really hard to justify riding into combat with a lowly D8 HD. Also if/when the pet dies or can't come along, the summoner may end up really screwed on options once they're out of summons. The HD and BAB seem like they're meant to give a minor boost to the class, and I think they're doing what they're supposed to.


Quandary wrote:

Thanks for bringing up something I forgot to Adam: their weapons proficiency list.

Giving them medium BAB is a joke if they only have simple weapons.
Bards at least have an array of weapons that give a viable route to combat SUPPORT (whips, as mentioned, rapiers, bows, etc).
I just see it as: is the Medium BAB actually enhancing the function/role of this character? IMHO, NO.
It's a red herring that would require allocating tons of Feats to do something completely extraneous to their schtick. I don't think they actually have a lack of spells or spell levels when their Summon SLAs are taken into account (esp. if they do end up with something like +CHA round duration, which I think is probable, the value of those Summons SLAs is larger than the same level Summon Monster).

I guess I'm fine with the Light Armor Proficiency/ASF immunity, given their reduced spell list would allow them to focus on ways to cast THOSE SPELLS in light armor easier than a Sorceror whose breadth of spells (and gestures) is much larger.

...I never saw the word "Mount" anywhere in the Summoner's description, though they end up supernaturally riding INSIDE the Eidolon if they want. But there doesn't seem to be any 'mounted warrior' flavor whatsoever - they're an occult pet class with buffing and summoning spells.

Depends on what you think the roll/function of the character is. It can fill just about any roll. It has good buff spells, and eventually can use aspect, and greater aspect to enhance his abilities in combat. If he does focus on it with his feats and has a high strength he can be a pretty descent fighter, at least on par with the cleric when buffed.


Velderan wrote:

Logically, there's no reason the summoner needs 3/4 and a D8, but, in terms of game mechanics, they kind of do.

Mounted combat and crossbow support are both playstyles the summoner is meant to support. It's really hard to justify riding into combat with a lowly D8 HD. Also if/when the pet dies or can't come along, the summoner may end up really screwed on options once they're out of summons. The HD and BAB seem like they're meant to give a minor boost to the class, and I think they're doing what they're supposed to.

I suppose for some summoners. I can just as easily see the summoner playing the hide in a barrel and buff while the Eidolon kills things role.

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