Director of Games
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Hey there all,
I have been going through a great deal of playtest feedback and speculation over the past few days. It has become obvious to me that there needs to be a few adjustments made to the summoner for balance reasons. Although I would not say that these changes are final, from this point onward, they are part of the class for playtesting purposes (this includes the Pathfinder Society Organized Play). I need to implement these changes to get a bit more productive feedback, since the issue seems to be skewing results a bit too heavily.
Feel free to post comments and feedback concerning this rules change in this thread, but leave other issued out of this discussion please.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Eidolons are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolons with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.
Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
In addition to the above language, the following changes are made to the summoner.
- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).
- Add the following sentence to the Summon Monster I class feature: The summoner can have no more than 1 summon monster or gate spell in play at one time using this ability. If an additional ssummon monster or gate spell is cast using this ability, the first one immediately ends.
- Delete the Armor Training evolution.
- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).
- Add the following sentence to the Summon Monster I class feature: The summoner can have no more than 1 summon monster or gate spell in play at one time using this ability. If an additional ssummon monster or gate spell is cast using this ability, the first one immediately ends.
The Eidolon change is good, IMO.
This one seems to be swinging too far to the other side. I think one or the other would be appropriate; both is too much.
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- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).
- Add the following sentence to the Summon Monster I class feature: The summoner can have no more than 1 summon monster or gate spell in play at one time using this ability. If an additional ssummon monster or gate spell is cast using this ability, the first one immediately ends.
- Delete the Armor Training evolution.
I agree with the armour but I think removing the shorter casting time, the longer duration and removing the ability to have more than 1 at a time is a bit much
Changing one or the other sure but both is way to much
Edit
Or just what Zurai said above
Reasonable changes, I think, Jason, in order to bring this class back in line power-wise. I don't think you need both of the rules changes regarding the summon monster/gate ability; the fact that you can only have one at a time is a sufficient limitation, and the 1 standard action cast time and 1 minute/level duration could probably stay.
But I'll hold off on more comments until I playtest under these new rules. Thanks for all your work.
- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).
- Add the following sentence to the Summon Monster I class feature: The summoner can have no more than 1 summon monster or gate spell in play at one time using this ability. If an additional ssummon monster or gate spell is cast using this ability, the first one immediately ends.
The Eidolon change is good, IMO.
This one seems to be swinging too far to the other side. I think one or the other would be appropriate; both is too much.
Both sound good to me since athigher levles you can produce multiple creatures (it says no more than one spell), and at higher levels you get more rounds. Minutes was redonkulous.
I agree with most of the above posters. While one (either one works) of the changes to SLA was needed, doing both doesn't strike me as being necessary.
*applauds the eidolon change and winces at the change to the summons*
Honestly, the summons changes would just make me not use the ability at all, which kind of sucks. I wouldn't mind the action change or the limit of one in play at a time, but...all of it together makes it far worse to me.
I would keep the casting time and duration the same as it was, but the one at a time is fine. Does this apply to the regular spell as well? Maybe that should still stack with the SLA...
My one and only issue with the change to duration and one summons at a time is the fact that it makes the power almost useless at 1st-3rd level.
Other than that, the summoner is getting 6-8 uses per day of a spell which is the highest level spell available at that level. It's not horrible. It would be nice to see an option for longer duration summonings but this is ultimately a good fix.
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I understand and agree with the changes to the Eidolon(except for one thing, the rings), but the Summon Monster didn't need more then one reduction.
It only made them Conjurer's who can use the spell as a spell-like ability, and conjurers will be able to do it more often at higher levels when they get more spells.
EDIT: It also seems these changes were made because people were overreacting to Eidolons being able to wear armor. Too many people were worried about Eidolons wearing armor when it is hard to get armor that will fit the Eidolon.
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My one and only issue with the change to duration and one summons at a time is the fact that it makes the power almost useless at 1st-3rd level.
Other than that, the summoner is getting 6-8 uses per day of a spell which is the highest level spell available at that level. It's not horrible. It would be nice to see an option for longer duration summonings but this is ultimately a good fix.
Perhaps simply saying that any SLA castings of summon monster have the equivilant of the extend spell feat on them at no extra cost?
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Eidolon's cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield.
My only nitpick with the update is the quoted one - it makes it sound like the form of the Eidolon is continually shifting. If that was the intention, then I'll get used to it. However, if the Eidolon is supposed to look like a normal (fantastical) creature, could we instead have some fluff that says (for example) that the Eidolon isn't normally in the same shape for long enough to learn how to use armor effectively, rather than the above? This is mostly going to be of importance in roleplaying situations where the Summoner is trying to pass the Eidolon off as something else.
With the obligatory knitted hat to cover the rune, of course.
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Plus they have increased duration, eventually permanency, for summons.I understand and agree with the changes to the Eidolon(except for one thing, the rings), but the Summon Monster didn't need more then one reduction.
It only made them Conjurer's who can use the spell as a spell-like ability, and conjurers will be able to do it more often at higher levels when they get more spells.
Which a Summoner does not get. At all. Ever.
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Not for summon monster. If that don't get decent SM spells as well might we well give them their spell lists back and call them an alt-conjurer, IMO.Which a Summoner does not get. At all. Ever.Plus they have increased duration, eventually permanency, for summons.I understand and agree with the changes to the Eidolon(except for one thing, the rings), but the Summon Monster didn't need more then one reduction.
It only made them Conjurer's who can use the spell as a spell-like ability, and conjurers will be able to do it more often at higher levels when they get more spells.
With a familiar on steroids and growth hormones.
Not for summon monster. If that don't get decent SM spells as well might we well give them their spell lists back and call them an alt-conjurer, IMO.Which a Summoner does not get. At all. Ever.Plus they have increased duration, eventually permanency, for summons.I understand and agree with the changes to the Eidolon(except for one thing, the rings), but the Summon Monster didn't need more then one reduction.
It only made them Conjurer's who can use the spell as a spell-like ability, and conjurers will be able to do it more often at higher levels when they get more spells.
Keep in mind for a minute that the summons are intended to be a secondary ability of the class. The Eidolon is the primary feature of the summoner.
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To be completely honest, long duration summons would likely end up being used as trap/ambush detectors ... not necessarily a good thing.If you think a trap/ambush is right around the corner.
Even 20 minutes is not really long enough to scout out an area unless you know the area is dangerous. A wilderness ambush is STILL an ambush, because the summoner has no idea which hour it will occur on.
But a 20th level Conjurer gets one permanent summon that can, and he doesn't have to worry about what hour it will occur because the spell is permanent.
There goes my leather barding for my dragon eidolon mount. *shrug*
Not too worried about that, but the hit to the SLA Summonings kind of hurts. I don't mind only using one at a time if it will last for a minute / level, but if it is only rounds, I would like to be able to use more than one in a fight if needed.
Either way, going to make the changes to my character for our game and see how it goes.
Perhaps simply saying that any SLA castings of summon monster have the equivilant of the extend spell feat on them at no extra cost?My one and only issue with the change to duration and one summons at a time is the fact that it makes the power almost useless at 1st-3rd level.
Other than that, the summoner is getting 6-8 uses per day of a spell which is the highest level spell available at that level. It's not horrible. It would be nice to see an option for longer duration summonings but this is ultimately a good fix.
That would do it.
The armor thing works from a mechanical standpoint but, I have to admit I have a hard time with the fluff of it. Particularly if someone wants to keep (mostly) the same form. Toning down the natural armor progression would have been my preferred route, but eh. I'm not too partial either way.
I'm a bit torn on the SLA; if he can't drop more than one summon spell at a time he's actually behind other summoners (excepting that he pulls from a non-spell resource). He should at least get something similar to the Conjurer specialists ability (or just a free Extend Spell effect). I think the ability of being able to call in monsters for utility is nice, so seeing the 1 minute / level (or perhaps 1 per 2 levels) come back would be nice.
The standard action casting time was neat, and might be something to put in as an advanced ability with a limited number of uses (or perhaps just being able to take the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat from the Bestiary would be sufficient).
Anyway, pardon my rambling speculation; My group should be playtesting tomorrow so hopefully I'll have something more concrete then.
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Keep in mind for a minute that the summons are intended to be a secondary ability of the class. The Eidolon is the primary feature of the summoner.
Okay, that I can understand.
But why reduce the duration when the class is based on summoning? It's like reducing the duration of wildshape because the Druids primary feature is spellcasting.
In addition to the above language, the following change's are made to the 'summoner.
...sorry, I had to. Maybe it'll brighten James's day? ;)
Armor: Yea!
But wait...no barding for an Eidolon mount? A horse can wear barding without any armor training so I'm a bit dubious about this.
Summons: Limit to one casting running at a time, yea! Shorter duration...boo...hiss!
Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
Just so im clear, does that mean that the items ONLY return to the eidolon when it is summoned again if it is a cursed item? Is it only the cursed item that returns immediately?
Do they return and are equiped? Or are just next to him like on the floor in his square?
Armor: Yea!
But wait...no barding for an Eidolon mount? A horse can wear barding without any armor training so I'm a bit dubious about this.Summons: Limit to one casting running at a time, yea! Shorter duration...boo...hiss!
Personally I plan to have my eidolons Natural Armor look like shining plate. You can still have barding, its just coming from a different source.
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Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.Just so im clear, does that mean that the items ONLY return to the eidolon when it is summoned again if it is a cursed item? Is it only the cursed item that returns immediately?
Do they return and are equiped? Or are just next to him like on the floor in his square?
And what if a gate spell is used to bring it to the Material Plane so the Eidolon can have items, and then it is sent back to where ever it came from?
It seems that the changes to the Eidolon are a little unbalanced in favor of humanoid forms due to the ability to use rings, weapons and shields. Is there any chance of getting some love for the quads and serpents to mitigate this ?
The way I see it with the one at a time is that it applies to the SLA only; if he wants more he can expend spell slots like everybody else. This to me is fine as it gives him a slight leg up on others who summon because he gets the summons/day in addition to his regular spell slots. I would restore the extended duration and perhaps even the standard action to the SLA to keep the feel of the class intact. Also, give him a few more skill points or the summon monster spells as bonus to reinforce the other areas of the class so that the 1 at a time limit (which others have correctly pointed out is not present for anyone else) isn't felt quite as much.
I really like the changes, from playtesting they take away my worries with the Eidolon armor exploitation.
Limiting the number of summons is probably a good idea too.
Pity about the longer duration going the way of the dodo, but otherwise good stuff.
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I just don't think its right that a summoner is worse with summoning than a conjurer speced wizard.
The Summoner isn't about the Summon Monster spell, it's about summoning the Eidolon.
That being said I think having the extend metamagic feat apply to the Summon Monster class ability for free wouldn't hurt it at all nor would casting it as a standard action. Limiting it to one at a time is completely fine and worked well for the psion (shaper)'s Astral Construct so there is a precedent.
--Jingle Bell Vrock
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Director of Games
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Hey there folks... couple of points...
For the armor bit, the stacking of armor with the eidolon's current natural progression was just too much. I could have gone the other way and reduced the natural armor progression, but that would have made the armor evolutions a sort of tax that everyone ended up taking. For the time being, pulling that evolution is just the best option to get some balanced feedback.
As for the summoning bit, that ability was a bit overwhelming as written and used in certain manners. This scales it back to the basics. I might move it back up, but for now, I need some base line feedback on the class without this sort of inflation.
Carry on...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey there all,
I have been going through a great deal of playtest feedback and speculation over the past few days. It has become obvious to me that there needs to be a few adjustments made to the summoner for balance reasons. Although I would not say that these changes are final, from this point onward, they are part of the class for playtesting purposes (this includes the Pathfinder Society Organized Play). I need to implement these changes to get a bit more productive feedback, since the issue seems to be skewing results a bit too heavily.
Feel free to post comments and feedback concerning this rules change in this thread, but leave other issued out of this discussion please.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Eidolon's are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolon's with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolon's cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolon's can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
In addition to the above language, the following changes are made to the summoner.- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as...
Change to the Eidolon is expected. Multiple builds had the AC potentially higher than normal for the level. Positive change.
Identifying what an Eidolon could use for magic is good. This was done for Living campaigns to great success. Positive change.
Change to the duration for the SLAs was to be expected. From rounds to minutes per level is quite a jump. It would be nice to have them extended in some way such as the Summoner domain (+2 rounds) does or the Extend meta-magic feat does. Nice but not necessary. Positive change.
Change to the number of creatures from active spells out on the table is an interesting side-rule. Is this just for SLA's? I don't see what purpose this serves other than to those people with ADD who can't sit and wait until you resolve a few more summons. Neutral change (until playtesting is done).
Change to the casting time to full-round. This is the biggest draw to the class as a whole. If this changes, I feel the entire reason to take the class would be removed. I could live with the durations and possibly even the number of active SLAs but this seriously hurts the class since their spell selection is so limited. Negative change.
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Director of Games
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It seems that the changes to the Eidolon are a little unbalanced in favor of humanoid forms due to the ability to use rings, weapons and shields. Is there any chance of getting some love for the quads and serpents to mitigate this ?
You might notice that the quads and serpents have some evolutions that the biped cannot access.
Its a tradeoff... but I am willing to see how it goes.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Eidolon changes I'm fine with.
The triple fix of summoning (shorter duration, longer casting time, limit to number active) seems like maybe three times as much of a fix as was needed -- total overkill, massive overreaction. Any one of those three probably would have done the trick.
But, Jason has said he may scale it back up, which is a good thing. Playtesting with the triple-fix shouldn't be any harder than playtesting with the triple-boost was.
Keep in mind for a minute that the summons are intended to be a secondary ability of the class. The Eidolon is the primary feature of the summoner.Okay, that I can understand.
But why reduce the duration when the class is based on summoning? It's like reducing the duration of wildshape because the Druids primary feature is spellcasting.
Just by giving 6-8 castings of Summon monster X/ day you are guaranteeing that the summoner is the strongest 'summoner' in the game. The conjurer cannot compete because the conjurer only has 1-2 spell of his highest level. If a sorcerer or wizard were to dedicate their casting to summoning they could equal it at higher levels but the summoner can put out additional summons via spells as well. On top of this the summoner has his Eidolon which is more powerful than any single summons the wizard or sorcerer can bring to the table.
I'm not against the idea of extended duration summons, but I think the class is quite appealing with just normal durations.