Witch and Warlock idea.


Round 2: Summoner and Witch


How about this. Witch, as is, but offer an option that at first level you choose to be either a witch or a warlock.

Witch is as is, but warlock is an alternative that changes the BAB and HD to medium and d8 light armor, and the spell progression to 0-6th level instead. Basically, you get a melee/spellcaster alternative class, and you can actually USE some of those touch hexes. Maybe even spontaneous instead of prepared caster.

i seriously doubt you guys will go this route built into the class, but it would make a good sidebar variant/alternative that would satisfy the hunger for a "gish" and fix some of the problems people have with the witch now.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

What you're suggesting would simply be an entirely new class. It wouldn't make any sense to make one class that is actually two classes that are completely different with two different names.

Also, witches and warlocks are the same thing. Warlock was just the name given to a male witch. In a game, sure, knock yourself out, make them two different classes if you want but, historically, one and the same.


Velcro Zipper wrote:

What you're suggesting would simply be an entirely new class. It wouldn't make any sense to make one class that is actually two classes that are completely different with two different names.

]

Agreed, it's a whole new class

Velcro Zipper wrote:


Also, witches and warlocks are the same thing. Warlock was just the name given to a male witch.

No a male witch is called a witch. A witch and warlock are not the same thing


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Velcro Zipper wrote:

What you're suggesting would simply be an entirely new class. It wouldn't make any sense to make one class that is actually two classes that are completely different with two different names.

]

Agreed, it's a whole new class

Velcro Zipper wrote:


Also, witches and warlocks are the same thing. Warlock was just the name given to a male witch.
No a male witch is called a witch. A witch and warlock are not the same thing

True, that. Look up Klarion the Witch Boy.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
A witch and warlock are not the same thing

Try explaining that to any number of occult authors, historians and folklorists who have written on the subject of witchcraft for the last few hundred years. According to both historic Christian and Scottish traditions, the term warlock is synonomous with male witch, wizard or sorcerer. The term has been kicked around in relation to witches from at least as far back as the 1400's but the original version of the word predates that going back to an old Scottish word for "oath-breaker." Nobody really knows where and when it came to be so closely associated with witches but one theory is that it relates to the story of a Scottish priest who betrayed his clan and was subsequently burned as a witch.


heh, historic Christian I see where ya got it from now. Just because historic Christians used it as such does not make it so among those who called themselves witches. historic Christian also said all witches worshiped the devil as well :)

The root word for witch had book male (wicca] and female[wicce] pronunciations, but are related. As warlock is a whole other word, that got tired in at a later date. At lest 200 years later anyhow

They are not the same thing.


Velcro Zipper wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
A witch and warlock are not the same thing
Try explaining that to any number of occult authors, historians and folklorists who have written on the subject of witchcraft for the last few hundred years. According to both historic Christian and Scottish traditions, the term warlock is synonomous with male witch, wizard or sorcerer.

A warlock is an oath breaker, which would have been synonymous with calling someone a son-of-a-b***h.

Also, occult authors often write about things they only loosely understand, and most of the time it's based on a common misconception. So really, saying "Stephanie Meyer wrote that witches are..." is a bad start.

Oh, and the "traditional" wizard/magician/sorcerer doesn't exist in DnD, so why even use that as an example?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Not that any of this furthers the playtest, but who said anything about traditional wizards, etc. in D&D? I'm talking about the origin of a word. I've already mentioned the term goes back at least 600 years to both Scottish and Christian cultures and has been ascribed to male witches ever since. I don't care what a Wiccan calls himself, and I don't immediately assume anything Christian is correct and true. I'm not even a Christian (though I'm not surprised the word "Christian" apparently invalidates anything associated with it.) These are just cultures that made use of the word. That's all I'm saying. I know it comes from the the word for "oath-breaker." I also pointed out one theory on why it came to be associated with witches. None of that changes the fact that the word has been used to describe a male witch for the last 600 years.

And we all know Stephanie Meyer isn't an occult author. Why even use her as an example? Why not Sir James George Frazer or Richard Cavendish?


I have to disagree, a warlock has never been a male witch, it was used for both oathbrakers and male practitioners of the black arts. Where as in christian culture a witch is often such a worker, but historically they have not always been

I did not bring wicca up, save wicca means male witch in the root word of witch wile wicce is female of the same root word. Warlock has no root word in common and existed outside of such a word.

None of that changes the fact a male witch is called a witch. If someone calls a male witch a warlock they are in wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Well if you get to disagree, I get to disagree too ^_^ I brought up Wiccans because I know there are practitioners who take offense to the word for whatever reasons. I'm fine with you and anyone else who disagrees with me, the dictionary and 600+ years of common usage believing I'm wrong. I'm going to keep using the word to refer to male witches.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Exacerbating the arguement:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warlock

seems both 'certified' linguistic definitions are accurrate!!!


Velcro Zipper wrote:
Well if you get to disagree, I get to disagree too ^_^ I brought up Wiccans because I know there are practitioners who take offense to the word for whatever reasons.

Mostly as it means oathbraker and implies you traffic in the dark arts. How would most Christians you know take it if you called them devil worshipers and a lier?

Your free to use that word and others are free to point out that is not what you call a male witch


archmagi1 wrote:

Exacerbating the arguement:

seems both 'certified' linguistic definitions are accurrate!!!

If you notice on your links there, it calls a warlock a "a man practicing the black art" not a male witch. Although 1 definition of a witch is a a female practicer of the black art

So while all warlock are users of the blackarts not all witches are as such. So a male witch is not a warlock.


Warlock comes from the Old English waerloga and means "traitor, enemy, liar" as well as oath-breaker from around AD 1000. Meaning "one in league with the devil" is recorded from about 1300. It did not get the ending changed to -ck and meaning "male equivalent of witch" til 1568. So if a male witch who knows the history of the word were called a warlock by someone he would be very insulted. To me, you calling me or another male witch a warlock would be as insulting as a non-black person calling a black person the "N" word.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

If you notice on your links there, it calls a warlock a "a man practicing the black art" not a male witch. Although 1 definition of a witch is a a female practicer of the black art

So while all warlock are users of the blackarts not all witches are as such. So a male witch is not a warlock.

Or, more precisely: not all male witches are warlocks, and not all warlocks are male witches. The overlap between the set of male witches and the set of warlocks consists only and entirely of those men who BOTH (1) practice dark arts, AND (2) are witches.

Which is another way of saying they're not the same thing, as you say.

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