A Quick Note: I'm posting this to gather other people's feedback on the matter and also to draw the attention of "the powers that be".
I love the Pathfinder products and am a new Pathfinder Society member. After looking over your subscriptions however, I think there is a lot to be desired. Even though it is wonderful that a free PDF copy is included, the limits of a subscription do not allow it to compete with prices that other online retailers such as Amazon.com offer on past releases.
In other words, if I wanted both the hard copy and the PDF of "Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond" it would be significantly less expensive for me to purchase the book online with Amazon.com and then order the PDF through Paizo's website. Further, if I only wanted one or the other, the price of the hard copy is less on Amazon than your PDF is.
While I think the subscriptions are a wonderful way to provide your loyal customers with something extra and reward them with the free PDF, in the long run I believe you're actually hurting your business by not offering the same deal on past releases.
The more Pathfinder Chronicles products that are released the less likely your customers are to buy those released in the past directly from Paizo. Here's an example of what I mean:
- It would cost me $39.25 to order both the book and PDF copy of the "Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond" book from your company.
- It would cost me $31.57 to order the book (from Amazon) and PDF copy (from you).
Those prices include shipping and handling for both Paizo and Amazon.com. If I decide to purchase multiple hard copies from Amazon the price difference is even larger because they offer free shipping on any order over $25.
Like I said, I'm really enjoying Pathfinder and think it's very cool that you're offering PDFs at discounted prices. It's even better that subscribers get free PDFs of current and future releases. However, when the prices for past products are not competitive even for the loyal fans who have subscribed, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot.
It's almost as if you're encouraging them to find better prices elsewhere for the hard copies of books released before they subscribed.
That's just my two cents,
Ben
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It's not a problem with Paizo, it's a problem with Amazon. Paizo, in order to profit, has to take ... say ... 40-50% of profit from a book.
On the other hand, Amazon can happily set a price with 10-15% profit margin. Why ? Because it's g!&$#+n Amazon, it's freaking huge, and it can afford to sell things at a near-loss prices because the sheer staggering volume of sales allows that.
If Paizo set prices on Amazon level, they would be out of the business by the end of fiscal year.
It's not a problem with Paizo, it's a problem with Amazon. Paizo, in order to profit, has to take ... say ... 40-50% of profit from a book.
On the other hand, Amazon can happily set a price with 10-15% profit margin. Why ? Because it's g!%$++n Amazon, it's freaking huge, and it can afford to sell things at a near-loss prices because the sheer staggering volume of sales allows that.
If Paizo set prices on Amazon level, they would be out of the business by the end of fiscal year.
My post was not so much about the price of the books, but rather the price of PDFs for past products for subscribers.
As far as I'm aware with my limited experience in designing and creating PDFs, there is very little cost in creating a PDF from an already existing electronic file. This is something Paizo would already have so they could provide it to the printing company.
Also, you need to look at it as they also can not undercut folks they are selling to. Paizo is not just a store but also a supplier. If they undercut folks they sell to who would buy from them? You can not compete when the guy you bought your goods from is selling them to the public at a discount you can't match, so why even buy them then?
Simply put, as I understand it. Paizo has to keep it's prices in rang of what other sellers do, or risk undercutting them and losing orders and thus off-line distribution of the product
Let me elaborate...
I realize Paizo cannot compete with Amazon regarding hard copies. However, I do not see how it would be cost prohibitive to provide free PDFs for past releases when the full price is paid to have a hard copy of the book.
As far as I'm aware with my limited experience in designing and creating PDFs, there is very little cost in creating a PDF from an already existing electronic file. This is something Paizo would already have so they could provide it to the printing company.
While getting a PDF product to market is cheaper because there isn't any print cost, you still need to consider the cost that went into the product, regardless of its final output. To whit:
- Editor(s)
- Writer(s)
- Artist(s)
- Layout
- Customer Service
I'm sure there's more points to be made, but I think the other folks in this thread did that already. :)
Director of Brand Strategy
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This package was carefully tailored to ensure that it was a very good deal—but not quite as good a deal as subscribers received at the time. This is to reinforce the notion that the answer to the question "when is the best time to subscribe?" is always "the sooner, the better." I want non-subscribers to say "I wish I had subscribed a year ago/a month ago/a week ago," and I *don't* want subscribers to say "I shouldn't have bothered subscribing then."Those who subscribed at the time got a better deal than anyone else can get now, and if you subscribe now, you should be able to get a better deal than those who subscribe down the road will be able to get.
Also, keep in mind that while current subscribers can't get past volumes with free PDFs, they *can* use the Pathfinder Advantage to get those volumes (and those PDFs) for 15% off MSRP.
Also, if you buy a pdf on RPGNOW or other pdf storefronts, they don't offer discounted prices for owning a full-price dead tree version of the book either. If Paizo's "shooting themselves in the foot" by pricing their pdfs as they are, so is the rest of the industry. But since the only place to get Paizo pdfs is Paizo.com, they can price them however they want and there's not much people can do.
If Paizo set prices on Amazon level, they would be out of the business by the end of fiscal year.
Uh...Paizo sells books to a distributor that sells books to Amazon, so they are selling books at sub-Amazon prices.
Seeker is right; it's a matter of not undercutting bricks 'n' mortar game stores with lower prices on books or cheap PDFs (except in the case of Adventure Path subscriptions).
Oh well... guess I'm buying the hard copies from Amazon and not worrying about the PDFs then. I'll just scan whatever I need or get the PDFs another way.
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It would be nice BenL, but I think part of the fear if they did that is. People would not subscribe and then at certain times would subscribe for a couple of months buy up all the old stuff and then cancel again.
That makes it much harder for them to judge print runs and adds in the risk of printing to big a run. Leave them with a huge backstock that just takes up space or to small of a print run(which cost more per book to print) and then having to do several smaller print runs to restock.
Both of which runs the risk of eating into paizo's profits.
While it would be nice if they offered something to long term subscribers, like maybe if you have subscribed for a year straight then you could get PDF's on old products. I think that would be a lot more fesible.
While it would be nice if they offered something to long term subscribers, like maybe if you have subscribed for a year straight then you could get PDF's on old products. I think that would be a lot more fesible.
I like this idea. I'd be interested to hear what Lisa or Vic would say to that...?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I like this idea. I'd be interested to hear what Lisa or Vic would say to that...?
See what I quoted above. The point of subscriptions is to make subscribers either glad they subscribed when they did or wish they'd subscribed earlier.
Also, insinuating that you'll pirate pdfs as an alternative to buying them because Paizo isn't operating under the business model you would prefer is pretty bad form and a violation of the terms of service for these boards. Scanning is one thing, but "getting them another way" is entirely different.
I agree with you, but some of us are woefully aware of the reality that it's going to happen out there and can be difficult to deter from anyone doing it as a whole.
But it wouldn't be so harmful of an opportunity to allow subscribers to obtain older editions in both the hardcopy and the PDF form at a cost which meets in the middle. Perhaps a set amount can be purchased based on the span of time spent as a subscriber. Some people may bite. I know I sure would as there are older Chronicles that I'd love to pick up at a reasonable cost from the past in both formats prior to when I first heard about Pathfinder (which was at the beginning of the year).
I'm sure the staff has probably ran some price point figures to determine whether or not such options are even feasible. Ah well, just my $0.02 in this economy. :)
Also, insinuating that you'll pirate pdfs as an alternative to buying them because Paizo isn't operating under the business model you would prefer is pretty bad form and a violation of the terms of service for these boards. Scanning is one thing, but "getting them another way" is entirely different.
I in no way insinuated I would "pirate" PDFs. Seeing as you have NO idea what I was referring to I'm a little offended. That is unless Paizo considers me scanning a PDF for my own personal use pirating...
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[i]A Quick Note: I'm posting this to gather other people's feedback on the matter and also to draw the attention of "the powers that be".....
I'm not convinced it's so clear-cut. A lot of folks (myself included) prefer to buy either from their FLGS or directly from Paizo, to ensure that the people who make the industry are able to make their profit and stay in business.
While the numbers are clearly in favor of the giants (Amazon, I'm looking at you) in the cast of the larger books, let's take a look at the subscriptions that (I imagine) are the most common: the Companion, Chronics, and Adventure Paths.
I'm using the prices that I pay, with shipping being closer to $5.50 if I order these things individually, but I'm rounding up to $6 for simplicity's sake. I'm also assuming that, since we're talking about getting the best deals possible, you're going to have an Adventure Path subscription for the Pathfinder Advantage.
Chronicles:
paizo.com $19.99
pdf $13.99
amazon $13.59
Paizo subscription: $19.99 x .7 (30% off) + $6 (shipping) = $19.99
Amazon (with Prime): $13.59 + $13.99 = $27.58
Companion:
paizo.com $10.99
pdf $7.99
amazon $8.79
Paizo Subscription: $10.99 x .85 (15% off) + $6 (shipping) = $15.34
Amazon (with Prime): $7.99 + $8.79 = $16.78
Adventure Path:
paizo.com $19.99
pdf $13.99
amazon $13.59
Paizo subscription: $19.99 x .85 (15% off) + $6 (shipping) = $22.99
Amazon (with Prime): $13.59 + $13.99 = $27.58
In every case, the Pathfinder Advantage gives Paizo a clearly lower price. On top of that, combined shipping rates can save you more money if you're patient.
Also, in my experience, Amazon gets products at a significant delay compared to ordering straight from Paizo. With my Amazon Prime account, I get free 2 day shipping, but even with that the Paizo products tend to show up very slightly sooner if I'm trying to get them as soon as possible after release date.
Your original comparison failed to include the Pathfinder Advantage; I'm not sure if you're only concerned with the larger hard-bound rulebooks, but the larger picture deserved a good looking-at.
Man you said "'ll just scan whatever I need or get the PDFs another way."
As you can only buy them here, and covered scanning them yourself you did imply that. You may not have meant to do so, but that is how it reads
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Man you said "'ll just scan whatever I need or get the PDFs another way."
As you can only buy them here, and covered scanning them yourself you did imply that. You may not have meant to do so, but that is how it reads
He's got a pretty good point, your wording did imply pirating. If you can provide me with another method of acquiring the PDFs aside from A) purchasing them from Paizo, B) scanning your hard-copies for personal use, or C) pirating, I'd love to hear it.
He's got a pretty good point, your wording did imply pirating. If you can provide me with another method of acquiring the PDFs aside from A) purchasing them from Paizo, B) scanning your hard-copies for personal use, or C) pirating, I'd love to hear it.
It's probably better to give him the benefit of a doubt and move on. The same thing came to mind when I read it, but it really doesn't get any of us anywhere raking the coals over it. Chalk it up as a faux paus.
"Move along, there's nothing to see here..." :)
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I hear you on the price of Amazon stuff, and I buy older books from them myself. However, my personal experience with them is this:
-for older products sitting on their shelf, the turnaround time isn't too bad, especially if you get the free shipping. The price is definitely right.
-if its new, the turnaround time for them to receive the product, and getting it to the customer absolutely sucks. I could buy the book from Paizo, receive it, strap it to a wild animal and send it on a migration pattern around the US, and STILL get it back before Amazon got me my copy. I have three times ordered new items from them, and after waiting three weeks longer than originally estimated, ordered if from Paizo, received my book, and cancelled my Amazon order, which still had not shipped. The price may be good, but if you consider the fact that for a few dollars more you could have it a LOT sooner, the cost savings starts to become a moot point for many people.
If money is the only object, due to limited income(which was my situation up until recently), then Amazon is a good way to go. If you actually want your product in a timeframe it is relevant to current discussions and events, not so much.
On a side note, the free PDF for subscribers is the main incentive to stay a subscriber. Since the business model Paizo currently operates on is strongly supported by regular subscriptions to its product lines, keeping those people happily ordering every month I would think is a big priority. I get the strong feeling that their PDF pricing model is exactly where they want it to be to support their business model, which I think we could argue is working beautifully, given their success to date.
If our current pricing model and PDF pricing = shooting ourselves in the foot, I should shoot myself in the foot more often.
You should! All the cool kids in school are shooting themselves in the foot to be all hip and funky fresh. They wear the Skechers with the blinking lights on their remaining foot.
If our current pricing model and PDF pricing = shooting ourselves in the foot, I should shoot myself in the foot more often.
Guess that addresses my issue. Thanks James.
If our current pricing model and PDF pricing = shooting ourselves in the foot, I should shoot myself in the foot more often.
DOOOO IITTTTTTT!!!!!!
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If our current pricing model and PDF pricing = shooting ourselves in the foot, I should shoot myself in the foot more often.Guess that addresses my issue. Thanks James.
I fail to see what the issue is.
The following statement applies to any company...
We don't care where you buy "product x" as long as you buy it. You get a better deal some where else, cool. You still bought it.
This means for "company a" selling "product x" they still made money.
1) The retailer sold it, it doesn't go back to the distributor/manufacturer.
2) The distributor sold it, it doesn't go back to the manufacturer.
3) Since it sold, the manufacturer doesn't take back any unsold product and/or refund retailer/distributor money.
4) They still made their fixed price on the product, if retailers sell below the MSRP it doesn't effect the manufacturer.
Now if you're arguing Paizo isn't being competitive enough, that's fine too. As a publisher Paizo has a responsibility NOT to put brick & morter roleplaying game stores out of business. If they undercut them, REAL roleplaying stores have less incentive to carry their product.
If our current pricing model and PDF pricing = shooting ourselves in the foot, I should shoot myself in the foot more often.
T-Rex feet are pretty big, so I don't think hitting them would be the issue; instead, I'd ask about aiming the weapon with those little arms and fore-claws.
Also, Ben, welcome to the forums, and allow me to suggest subscribing as a way to increase your happiness in life.
Up in The Great White North my grumble is shipping costs. Many products I'd love to buy (even at full retail - I have no problem there) but shipping kills me (about $25 an order).
Alas, I would've loved to make some Black Friday buys... but the shipping was double the price of the items. :P
I'd actually like to see free PDFs when I buy Pathfonder stuff from Paizo even without a subscription. That would definitely attract me away from Amazon + "other means."
I'd actually like to see free PDFs when I buy Pathfonder stuff from Paizo even without a subscription. That would definitely attract me away from Amazon + "other means."
... and would eradicate one of the primary incentives for subscribing....
Why do these threads always turn into War on Subscribers?
I am Subscriber, dammit, hear me RAWR!
Why do these threads always turn into War on Subscribers?
I am Subscriber, dammit, hear me RAWR!
Damn dirty subscribers!
<Shoots Mairkurion>
I went through a similar thought process when I decided to go back and buy older Chronicle / Companion products. I ordered many of them through Amazon but a good 25% were not in super condition. A cover bend here, that sort of thing. I also ordered my first copy of the RPG through them and in addition to the corners being slightly rounded the spine was kinda meh. Sure, I sent some of it back but it was just a hassle. I decided to forgo the PDFs.
I caved in and subscribed to the RPG / Chronicle / Companion lines in addition to my AP. With the AP discount and choosing to hold for a single monthly shipment it is fairly reasonable AND Paizo is super-good about delivering "unspoiled" product. They even had little cardboard corner protectors for my second copy of the RPG. =)
As for subscriber incentives the free PDF is a powerful lure. Maybe they could consider something like "every X months of continuous subscription earns you a free previously published PDF in that line". Something like a credit every 6 mos. to a year would mean that over a couple of years you could backfill the PDFs you missed. On the other hand, kind of a PITA for Paizo to have to track.
Why do these threads always turn into War on Subscribers?
I am Subscriber, dammit, hear me RAWR!
Damn dirty subscribers!
<Shoots Mairkurion>
Someday, I'll be able to afford a super gun so I can shoot you. Till then... well, at least I have a double barrel now.
Paizo's PDF policy is also highly enlightened, and so I find that makes up most of the value for me.
I wish there were more digital storefronts where I could unconditionally download my stuff an infinite number of times to any computer I happen to be working on. Then again, I consider sharing with my players to be fair use (since I would lend them a physical book). This has paid dividends for paizo, since it often leads my players to invest in a physical book they would never have bought otherwise.
*shrug* I can't afford any subscriptions at all, so my opinion is sort of moot. But if I could, I would buy a paizo subscription or three.
Why do these threads always turn into War on Subscribers?
I am Subscriber, dammit, hear me RAWR!
Yea! Of course, this could turn into a war against us CHARTER Subscribers! That would not be fun. ~thinks it over for a minute and then heads to the bomb shelter~
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As for subscriber incentives the free PDF is a powerful lure. Maybe they could consider something like "every X months of continuous subscription earns you a free previously published PDF in that line". Something like a credit every 6 mos. to a year would mean that over a couple of years you could backfill the PDFs you missed. On the other hand, kind of a PITA for Paizo to have to track.
And completely useless to those of us that are charter subscribers for all their product lines. :)
As for subscriber incentives the free PDF is a powerful lure. Maybe they could consider something like "every X months of continuous subscription earns you a free previously published PDF in that line". Something like a credit every 6 mos. to a year would mean that over a couple of years you could backfill the PDFs you missed. On the other hand, kind of a PITA for Paizo to have to track.And completely useless to those of us that are charter subscribers for all their product lines. :)
Haha, true that. =)
I picked up a bunch of module PDFs I missed last April when Paizo had their Super PDF sale after Wizards of the Coast made them pull all their Wizards of the Coast PDFs.
That sale was awesome.
I had to stop my subscriptions for a little while so I missed the Chronicles book on Devils (because of delays, that is all I missed, yay!) so I'm hoping to pick it AND the PDF up eventually.
And completely useless to those of us that are charter subscribers for all their product lines. :)
You'll get cookies.
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Up in The Great White North my grumble is shipping costs. Many products I'd love to buy (even at full retail - I have no problem there) but shipping kills me (about $25 an order).
Alas, I would've loved to make some Black Friday buys... but the shipping was double the price of the items. :P
Yeah - I'd up the number of lines I subscribe to in half a heartbeat if Paizo had a European warehouse they could ship from, or if they gave the option of batching subscriptions up as 1 or 2 shipments per year and sent them via cheap surface mail.
I wonder if one of the RPG stores in the UK could make a sensible deal to handle all of Paizos subscriptions for Europe?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'll admit that subscribing has spoiled me when it comes to the PDF/dead tree issue.
Check out Catalyst games for pain in the PDF+Print bundle. I'd buy a lot more of their product if I could get a subscription + free PDF. I've bought their PDF only products (Chaos Campaign series, some of the record sheets) but don't want to pay $60 for a book and then $50 for a PDF of the same book.
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I think the Pathfinder subscription system is awesome. I would love to get PDFs for free. The only reason I do not participate is because I have a deal worked out with the owner of my FLGs for him to order all of the Pathfinder lines for me, and he puts the in my draw box with the comics and novels that I am on draw for, and I come in twice a month and pick them up. I usually wait a week to two weeks longer than release to get my product, but I get to support a gaming store I love.
And my interest Paizo products (along with some other Paizo fans in my area) has earned them a nice chunk of shelf space in the store. Instead of just ordering his draw amounts for us he orders our draw plus 4-6 more copies. And from his reports the line is doing pretty good there. Most of the chronicles and companions sell out quickly. The adventures don't always do so well (but he has since lowered his draw on those), but most of the other stuff flies off the shelf in less than a week.
love,
malkav
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CEO
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Yeah - I'd up the number of lines I subscribe to in half a heartbeat if Paizo had a European warehouse they could ship from, or if they gave the option of batching subscriptions up as 1 or 2 shipments per year and sent them via cheap surface mail.
Just to let you know, the cheap surface mail option got cancelled by the US Post Office about two years ago. As far as I know, there is not a single cheap surface mail option available to send anything overseas any longer. Which is why all the shipping rates went up for international customers. :/ I hope some other carrier steps into this niche because it would be a nice option for overseas customers. But as of right now, it is a thing of the past.
-Lisa
I subscribe off and on depending on my interest in the AP/available funds/etc. Reasons I do so instead of going through amazon.
-I get my books MUCH MUCH sooner than if I go through Amazon.
-I get a free pdf even sooner than I get my books. and
-I love the Paizians and would rather support them instead of some faceless corporation.