It's a small question .. but I hope it can be answered easily.
I took the skill Craft (Armor) to be able make my own armors.
In the end I would like to end up with a Mithral Full Plate for my ranger ;)
(level and price is unimportant at this moment)
Can I actually craft my OWN fullplate armor ?
Since it's the only armor that says it has to be fitted personally.
Cheers in advance.
-TDL
It's a small question .. but I hope it can be answered easily.
I took the skill Craft (Armor) to be able make my own armors.
In the end I would like to end up with a Mithral Full Plate for my ranger ;)
(level and price is unimportant at this moment)
Can I actually craft my OWN fullplate armor ?
Since it's the only armor that says it has to be fitted personally.
Cheers in advance.
-TDL
Yes.
Yes.It's a small question .. but I hope it can be answered easily.
I took the skill Craft (Armor) to be able make my own armors.
In the end I would like to end up with a Mithral Full Plate for my ranger ;)
(level and price is unimportant at this moment)
Can I actually craft my OWN fullplate armor ?
Since it's the only armor that says it has to be fitted personally.
Cheers in advance.
-TDL
Awesome :)
Alright ... It may be awesome to be able to craft it yourself ... I did some math ...
Normal Full Plate
DC = 10 + 9
Bonus:
Int = -1
Master work tool = +2
Classskill = +3
Level 10 = +10
Total bonus = +14
15000 SP
Cost = 500gp
Duration = DC x Checkresult
Duration = 19 x 19(minimal result I would need) = 361
15000 / 361 = ~41 weeks
Masterwork Mithral Item
DC = 20
Bonus:
Int = -1
Master work tool = +2
Classskill = +3
Level 10 = +10
Total bonus = +14
90000 sp
cost = 300gp
Duration = DC x Checkresult
Duration = 20 x 20(minimal result I would need) = 400
90000 / 400 = 225 weeks = ~4 years !!
I'm thinking it's easier to just save up the 9000gp + 1500gp since (according to the core rule book GM chapter on gold at a certain level) I will have about 62000gp at the same level ...
Or is my math WAY of the scale ?
Cheers.
-TDL
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Yeah... though crafting has always been a bit messed up in D&D/Pathfinder. I don't mean a bit actually. I mean a lot. It's really bad.
Here's an amazing crafter, for example. Level 20 guy.
20 Ranks
3 Class
4 Int
2 MW Tools
6 Skill Focus
+35 modifier.
Pretty awesome. Now Mithral is already masterwork so we don't need to add in that component, just the total cost of the Mithral Full Plate Armor, which would be 10,500 GP. In Silver Pieces, this is 105,000 SP.
We'll use the Craft DC for a Masterwork item, DC 20. It's arguable whether or not this should be increased because it's mithral, but we'll leave it alone for now.
Next, you pay 1/3rd the price for the raw cost. 105,000 / 3 = 35,000 SP or 3,500 GP. So you will pay that much for the raw materials.
Now this thing would technically require a roll every week. This guy can succeed even on a 1, so we'll just assume he averages out in the end and approximate the time as if he rolled 10.5 each week (average on a d20, I know you can't roll it but for math's sake it will work).
To make this QUICKER we can voluntarily increase the DC by 10. Our master blacksmith can still make that on a 1, so he'll go ahead and do that, upping the DC to 30.
10.5 + 35 modifier = 45.5 average check each week. Multiply that by the DC of 30 and we get 1,365.
Our target number is 105,000. At this rate, our craftsman would take 76.9 weeks to complete, or rounded to 77. About a year and a half.
Considering that this guy is level 20 with a pretty high intelligence, good tools, skill focus, the works... taking 77 weeks to craft mithral full plate seems pretty long. Heck, even if he rolled a 20 every week for a total of 55x30 (1,650), it would still take him about 64 weeks to complete it.
Makes you wonder how these things ever get made in the first place.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Makes you wonder how these things ever get made in the first place.
The issue with craft is that mundane skills suck to make money or things.
Performing for the same time, with the same skill modifier would net 77 weeks* 7 days in a week* 3d6 gp per day = less than 5500gp.
Profession would net 77 weeks* 7 days in a week* 1/2 the check or 22.5 gp per day = 12,127gp.
Alternatively, you could just use the Fabricate spell and do it in less than a minute. Assuming 4 int + 3 class skill + 9 ranks + 2 tools, for a +18 modifier, you would have to roll a 2 to beat the DC 20 check.
The magic ways saves you 77 weeks, one feat (skill focus), 11 levels, and a lot of grief.
So I guess the answer to your query is magic, things get made by magic.
seems a waste to make arrmour you aren't actually proficient in without a feat or dip into fighter though.
Batts
edit: and seems a waste to blow a year and change on making it.
Batts
Yeah... though crafting has always been a bit messed up in D&D/Pathfinder. I don't mean a bit actually. I mean a lot. It's really bad.
Here's an amazing crafter, for example. Level 20 guy.
20 Ranks
3 Class
4 Int
2 MW Tools
6 Skill Focus+35 modifier.
Pretty awesome. Now Mithral is already masterwork so we don't need to add in that component, just the total cost of the Mithral Full Plate Armor, which would be 10,500 GP. In Silver Pieces, this is 105,000 SP.
We'll use the Craft DC for a Masterwork item, DC 20. It's arguable whether or not this should be increased because it's mithral, but we'll leave it alone for now.
Next, you pay 1/3rd the price for the raw cost. 105,000 / 3 = 35,000 SP or 3,500 GP. So you will pay that much for the raw materials.
Now this thing would technically require a roll every week. This guy can succeed even on a 1, so we'll just assume he averages out in the end and approximate the time as if he rolled 10.5 each week (average on a d20, I know you can't roll it but for math's sake it will work).
To make this QUICKER we can voluntarily increase the DC by 10. Our master blacksmith can still make that on a 1, so he'll go ahead and do that, upping the DC to 30.
10.5 + 35 modifier = 45.5 average check each week. Multiply that by the DC of 30 and we get 1,365.
Our target number is 105,000. At this rate, our craftsman would take 76.9 weeks to complete, or rounded to 77. About a year and a half.
Considering that this guy is level 20 with a pretty high intelligence, good tools, skill focus, the works... taking 77 weeks to craft mithral full plate seems pretty long. Heck, even if he rolled a 20 every week for a total of 55x30 (1,650), it would still take him about 64 weeks to complete it.
Makes you wonder how these things ever get made in the first place.
lol .. well .. I've scrapped it from my list.
I'll just buy it when the time comes (and I get the heavy armor proficiency ;))
The whole time to craft armor thing has bugged me for a long time, but when I looked up more info about the real world making of plate, I understood more of why it is this way in D&D/PF. The Craft skill assumes you are making the armor by yourself from scratch. From the initial melting of the metal to the final polishing of the finished prduct, you are doing all the work by yourself. In medieval times there would be a master armorsmith and several apprentices/assistants working on various stages at the same time so that full suits could be finished in weeks rather than a year+. And unfortunately, the rules only allow a whopping +2 if you are assisted by someone with the same skill. So even with 5 apprentices you would only have a +10 to the check and that would still mean 54 weeks to complete using the example above where every check had a roll of 20. So maybe the problem isn't that the time is incredibly long, rather that the special materials are way over-priced when it comes to armorcrafting.
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The whole time to craft armor thing has bugged me for a long time, but when I looked up more info about the real world making of plate, I understood more of why it is this way in D&D/PF. The Craft skill assumes you are making the armor by yourself from scratch. From the initial melting of the metal to the final polishing of the finished prduct, you are doing all the work by yourself. In medieval times there would be a master armorsmith and several apprentices/assistants working on various stages at the same time so that full suits could be finished in weeks rather than a year+. And unfortunately, the rules only allow a whopping +2 if you are assisted by someone with the same skill. So even with 5 apprentices you would only have a +10 to the check and that would still mean 54 weeks to complete using the example above where every check had a roll of 20. So maybe the problem isn't that the time is incredibly long, rather that the special materials are way over-priced when it comes to armorcrafting.
Actually, I looked at it a much different way then aiding. The Craft rules assume you are doing it in an 8 hour shift, but it doesn't say when. Feasibly you and 2 others could work 3 8-hour shifts in a day, cutting the time into a third of what it originally was. So in my example, if that big tough crafter happened to have two buddies, they could crank out the armor in 25-26 weeks or so instead of 77.
Aid seems like it would work as well, but I never liked that much to be honest. Working on a piece of armor seems like a one person job at one time, MAYBE a single apprentice but too many would just get in the way.
Aid seems like it would work as well, but I never liked that much to be honest. Working on a piece of armor seems like a one person job at one time, MAYBE a single apprentice but too many would just get in the way.
Actually, I've always liked the multiple assistant idea for making expensive items. Get a large forge with 15 or so apprentices assisting a master smith. Two or three over there making the clips and buckles, a few there tanning and stitching leather for the straps, a group rough-hammering the mithral into sheets for the master to get to tomorrow, and a couple assisting the master directly. Hell, if you're making regular masterwork armor, it distinctly says that the masterwork component is crafted separately. So you could have apprentices working on the regular portion of the armor while you use your improved skill on the masterwork component.
I would say it really depends on space more than the item being made. Hell, why couldn't you just describe it as a room full of apprentices working with the master overseeing. Theoretically, he would never need to pick up a hammer.
Even if it does take a year, so what? Unless you're in the middle of a time sensitive adventure path, there's nothing wrong with hand waving a year passing.
As a DM it gives me the opportunity to introduce changes in the campaign world and in the player's lives. The rogue spends a year consolidating his position in the guild, the Wizard builds a small tower out of Wall of Stone spells, the Ranger patrols the countryside, noticing the increased aggression of the Barbarian tribes to the North (which just happens to be the hook for the next adventure), and the Cleric notices a decided decrease in donations to the church (a side adventure hook).
It also gives me the opportunity to work in the changes to the campaign setting that the characters have caused. "Freed from the oppression of Baron Badgui, the village of Noiwear has once again become a prosperous farming community. They send word that a memorial to one of your slain party members is soon to be erected." Few players can resist stopping by for a look. And the fact that the village got it wrong can be a source of amusement or angst.
Conversely, if the players fell for a baddies misdirection, the passage of a year can give a clue. "A wandering minstrel sings of the death of the village of Cumberland, it's home's abandoned and orchards overgrown."
PC1: Hey, didn't we save that village?
PC2: Maybe we missed something. How about another look?
If you don't take time for extended breaks, the characters can age less time than the players do.
There are several solutions to the next to worthless Craft (armor) skill (barring Magical Craftsman).
* Do not factor in special materials cost (they are not thousands of times harder to forge, only more expensive to buy/get).
* Allow the Aid Another action to add more bonuses (+3, +4, +5) if the roll is better than 20, 30, 40. A master craftsman with skilled co-workers and lots of apprentices can forge armor quicker.
* Create feats that enhances normal crafting (i.e. Fast-Crafting) that cuts the time by half.
* Create magical tools (Wondrous Items) that reduces crafting times of normal items (Anvil of Hefaistos) by some amount, maybe half again, making it possible with the feat above, to craft in 1/4 the time
Fabricate still wins the day of course, but you won't have to wait a decade for a full plate.
As for Profession/Perform and making money. That really is a DM's call. Perform (actor) yields millions of dollars to celebrities in Hollywood, but next to nothing in other areas of the world. That same "logic" could apply to said skill in Pathfinder.
People will always pay more for things or services made by famous and legendary people, even if such things really aren't worth the cost.
In the end, the DM decides.
If you are going to use assistants, instead of letting them aid another on you, break them into 3 groups of three. two from each group aids the third, and each of the groups is handling 15% of the workload (leaving the final 55% to you)
so instead of making a (and I'm just using sample figures here) 1000GP set of plate you have.
* 3 groups of three each working on a 150GP project
* you working on a 550 GP project
Your working alone has at nearly halved the time required. and if the apprentices finish work early, they can come and aid another with you.
As a GM, I would probably require the PC to be doing at least 50% of the work. BUT if 4 PC's were building a house (1000 GP) I may be persuaded to let them each build a 250GP section. Obviosuly some projects cannot work like this, but you may be able to farm off effort and time to others.
Batts
An armorsmith who builds a suit of full plate and if it took him TWO years, I think he'd still be making more money than a standard laborer makes by a huge margin. An armrosmith makes a GOOD living, easily middle class by D&D standards.
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I would love to find out how long it took in the real world to craft the various stuff like metal armors, certain weapons, wood and leather stuff, etc.
I would also love to know how long the material refinement process took to get workable materials for armor whether it was leather, wood or metal.
I think in this type of case that going by a real-world guideline is probably better, maybe add a base modifier for each different special material like 'armor crafted from mithral takes 1d4 extra weeks to craft' or 'dragonhide is more difficult to work with than regular materials, so increase the crafting time by 25%'.
I don't like crafting being based on the final cost of an item. The difference between +1 plate and +2 slick plate of heavy fortification is really only the imbuing of the more expensive plate with more magical spells and such. That shouldn't take an extra couple years to do. Maybe something like 'for every +1 ability added to the item add 1d6 days to the crafting process'.
hmmm. I may pursue this idea further....
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I don't like crafting being based on the final cost of an item. The difference between +1 plate and +2 slick plate of heavy fortification is really only the imbuing of the more expensive plate with more magical spells and such. That shouldn't take an extra couple years to do. Maybe something like 'for every +1 ability added to the item add 1d6 days to the crafting process'.
Magic items follow different rules..."Crafting magic armor requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price."
I would love to find out how long it took in the real world to craft the various stuff like metal armors, certain weapons, wood and leather stuff, etc.
I would also love to know how long the material refinement process took to get workable materials for armor whether it was leather, wood or metal.
I think in this type of case that going by a real-world guideline is probably better, maybe add a base modifier for each different special material like 'armor crafted from mithral takes 1d4 extra weeks to craft' or 'dragonhide is more difficult to work with than regular materials, so increase the crafting time by 25%'.
I don't like crafting being based on the final cost of an item. The difference between +1 plate and +2 slick plate of heavy fortification is really only the imbuing of the more expensive plate with more magical spells and such. That shouldn't take an extra couple years to do. Maybe something like 'for every +1 ability added to the item add 1d6 days to the crafting process'.hmmm. I may pursue this idea further....
The craft skills are actually very realistic for a single person doing the work. The problem is that they break down for items that would be traditionally made by teams, like this. Armor crafters specialized. 1 guy would make gauntlets, and that would be all he made. Annother helmets. Reletively few were approved by guilds to make the entire part, and they would be the true masters, likely supervising much of the work while training multiple people. A standard suit of plate would have taken about a month, with decorated ceremonial plate taking multiple times that depending on the decoration.
On annother nore, I asked my GM for a hammer of fabrication (spell lvl5, 9th caster lvl, use activated: 90000gp) Its an absurdly high magic campaign though, I wouldn't be suprized if I have on by lvl 10.
On annother nore, I asked my GM for a hammer of fabrication (spell lvl5, 9th caster lvl, use activated: 90000gp) Its an absurdly high magic campaign though, I wouldn't be suprized if I have on by lvl 10.
You have to make it that far first. >:)
Just to add my 2cp worth.
As someone stated above, special materials shouldn't add their goldpiece value to the time to make it, they are material costs. For example, making a bookcase out of imported norwegian mahogany takes 3 weeks. Making a bookcase out of domestic old growth oak takes 3 weeks. Making it out of poplar takes 3 weeks. They don't cost the same though.
Imported Mahogany : $1,000
Old Growth Oak : $600
Poplar : $249.99
The old growth oak or mahogany is harder (physically) than the poplar (which is soft), but it doesn't appreciably add to the time, at least not linearly with the price, and some harder woods are actually cheaper.
If your GM wants to represent that, he can add some difficulty modifiers for the material (say, +2 for adamantine, due to it's hardness).
And, again as stated before, you can hire assistants to make portions of it. From our bookshelf example, you could hire a guy to make the shelves while you make the frame.
I would also say that multiple armors (or apprentices) should add success together. Instead of working in shifts (as suggested above), each one make a skill check and adds their success in SP to the total.
This effectively represents a workshop where multiple smiths and apprentices are working on different parts of the same suit.
As a historical note. I found this reference after a bit of a web search.
"It apparently took the court armorer Jörg Seusenhofer (and a small number of assistants) about one year to complete a horse armor and a large garniture commissioned in November 1546 by King (later Emperor) Ferdinand I (1503–1564) for himself and his son, and delivered in November 1547. We do not know whether Seusenhofer and his workshop were also working on other commissions during that time."
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On annother note, I asked my GM for a hammer of fabrication (spell lvl5, 9th caster lvl, use activated: 90000gp) Its an absurdly high magic campaign though, I wouldn't be suprized if I have on by lvl 10.
You can decrease that cost significantly by using the Charges per day adjustment p.550 Table 15-29 [divide by (5 divided by charges per day)].
By having that Hammer of Fabrication work only once per day, the final cost becomes 90,000gp/5 = 18,000gp.