If I were to share a conversion or two that I wrote up for my home games - say, for example, a certain psychically-active, squid-headed humanoid dweller of the underworld... but I renamed the creature and it's signature abilities for the purposes of sharing it here, would I legally be allowed to share my conversions?
Maybe, if the description of said creature isn't particularly close to the description found in said intellectual property.
I suggest you ask WotC customer service before doing this, though.
I'm not a lawyer and my advice doesn't count BUT I'm pretty sure Wizards only owns the name and likeness of said creature (and maybe the specific game mechanics), not the fundamental idea of a tentacled, brain-eating, psionic creature. You can create a TV show where U.S. military forces travel through rings to explore other planets and call it Spacegate and I think you're fine. Hollywood does it all of the time.
M
[edit]Of course, that might not stop them from filing a suit against you...and I imagine Hasbro has more money than you do. Still, I doubt they'd bother and I've seen personal conversions of floating eyes that shoot magical rays and such.[/edit]
Creative Director
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It's FINE!
Post the Mind Flayer here and don't change the name; an illithid is an illithid. Just, maybe with only one "l" -- I can never remember.
You can't publish it, or charge money for it. But you can surely put it on a messageboard!
Although putting things like this on Paizo's messageboards makes me nervous.
Putting it on our messageboard could be construed as us supporting a violation of Wizard's IP, something we're absolutely not interested in doing. A post like that would likely be deleted.
Best to avoid doing that.
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Ouch.
There's nothing wrong with it, though -- Paizo isn't endorsing or sponsoring it and certainly not making profit off of it.
How could the WoTC legal team consider a Thread titled "My Homebrew conversion of the 3.5 Warlock, Scout, and Animal Lord to the Real D&D System -- Pathfinder" or one titled "My Homebrew conversion of the 3.5 Mind Flayer, Beholder and Githyanki" be an infringement of their intellectual "property" by Paizo.
I'm a customer not an employee, professional designer or stockholder.
And afterall, "the opinions expressed in these Threads do not necessarily represent the opinions of Paizo."
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Creative Director
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There's nothing wrong with it, though -- Paizo isn't endorsing or sponsoring it and certainly not making profit off of it.
How could the WoTC legal team consider a Thread titled "My Homebrew conversion of the 3.5 Warlock, Scout, and Animal Lord to the Real D&D System -- Pathfinder" or one titled "My Homebrew conversion of the 3.5 Mind Flayer, Beholder and Githyanki" be an attack against them by Paizo.
Because that would look the same from the outside if we contacted someone secretly and said, "Here's our version of the mind flayer we build in house for use in our home games, go ahead and post this on our boards for everyone else to use but don't reveal we did it."
Basically... these boards are public, but they're owned and moderated by Paizo. Whatever goes onto them is, for better or worse, associated with us—even if we maintain that "Threads don't necessarily represent our wishes." Which is why it pains me whenever folks start badmouthing each other or other game systems; it reflects poorly on Paizo. In some areas, these boards have a reputation for being childish or hostile and that's not accurate... but it is if someone comes to only one thread and all he sees is a bunch of flaming edition war garbage.
So yeah, in short: Don't post mind flayers here, please. Because we'll delete the post and have to apologize for deleting the post.
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I agree and all. Whether you're right or wrong, getting lawyers sending certified stuff to you is no damn fun.
What I find ironic is that a mindflayer is basically a shrunken purple C'thulhu without any damn wings, and H.P. Lovecraft LOVED for and ENCOURAGED people to borrow his mytho's and add to them.
It ought to be SRD by proxy. I know it ain't but it ought to be.
How about if you made these home brew conversions and just posted a link to your own website where the info is posted. The actual conversion is not anywhere on Paizo's property that way. I have not looked into some parts of the message boards here until this thread, so is this how all the posters in the home brew and conversions threads here on Paizo's boards do it?
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Didn't Hugo "Butterfrog" Solis have a link to one of his DeviantArt pages here somewhere? He advertised it as an OGL alternative to the mind flayer, designed by someone else and illustrated by himself.
If only I wasn't so damn tired I'd go find the post.
EDIT: Okay, I did find the DeviantArt page, but can't find his Paizo post. And now for some reason all my Firefox tabs refuse to close...I think I'm losing my mind...
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How about if you made these home brew conversions and just posted a link to your own website where the info is posted. The actual conversion is not anywhere on Paizo's property that way. I have not looked into some parts of the message boards here until this thread, so is this how all the posters in the home brew and conversions threads here on Paizo's boards do it?
That's the "Torrent Defense" used by some in-famous websites ("we don't have any illegal stuff on our servers, it's not our fault if the links people upload lead to any") and lately it's not exactly winning the legal fight ...
How about if you made these home brew conversions and just posted a link to your own website where the info is posted. The actual conversion is not anywhere on Paizo's property that way. I have not looked into some parts of the message boards here until this thread, so is this how all the posters in the home brew and conversions threads here on Paizo's boards do it?That's the "Torrent Defense" used by some in-famous websites ("we don't have any illegal stuff on our servers, it's not our fault if the links people upload lead to any") and lately it's not exactly winning the legal fight ...
Yeah, but they also actively used the fact that you could get free stuff from their website, for their benefit. I dont think they could really say they were just "standing by", with nothing to gain, even though they argued the case that way.
Watching a crime, and actively encouraging(telling people to do it) it are two different things.
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How about if you made these home brew conversions and just posted a link to your own website where the info is posted. The actual conversion is not anywhere on Paizo's property that way. I have not looked into some parts of the message boards here until this thread, so is this how all the posters in the home brew and conversions threads here on Paizo's boards do it?That's the "Torrent Defense" used by some in-famous websites ("we don't have any illegal stuff on our servers, it's not our fault if the links people upload lead to any") and lately it's not exactly winning the legal fight ...Yeah, but they also actively used the fact that you could get free stuff from their website, for their benefit. I dont think they could really say they were just "standing by", with nothing to gain, even though they argued the case that way.
Watching a crime, and actively encouraging(telling people to do it) it are two different things.
1. It's not a crime. It's not a theft. It's a violation of IP property rights. Unless your country's law says that downloading/viewing/copying an IP-infringing material is a criminal offense - not a case in my homeland, but YMMV.
I really, really dislike the "if you download stuff, you're an evil thief !" vibe. IP rights violation =/= theft.
2. Actually, "watching" is what we all do - we're aware of those sites, but (thankfully) there are no laws that oblige us to report them to nearest stormtrooper unit, erm, legal enforcement.
Between "watching" and "actively encouraging" there is "creating a possibility to violate IP law by means of your product/service", and that's where the problem sits.
How about if you made these home brew conversions and just posted a link to your own website where the info is posted. The actual conversion is not anywhere on Paizo's property that way. I have not looked into some parts of the message boards here until this thread, so is this how all the posters in the home brew and conversions threads here on Paizo's boards do it?That's the "Torrent Defense" used by some in-famous websites ("we don't have any illegal stuff on our servers, it's not our fault if the links people upload lead to any") and lately it's not exactly winning the legal fight ...Yeah, but they also actively used the fact that you could get free stuff from their website, for their benefit. I dont think they could really say they were just "standing by", with nothing to gain, even though they argued the case that way.
Watching a crime, and actively encouraging(telling people to do it) it are two different things.
2. Actually, "watching" is what we all do
Are you arguing semantics?
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No I'm not. All I'm saying is that in case of any legal trouble Paizo can't go with the "sorry, it's something not on our server, yeah it was linked on our forums but you know, we don't control that etc etc" defense line.
Hence the "post WotC conversions on my website and link to them on Paizo forums instead" idea isn't gonna work.
No I'm not. All I'm saying is that in case of any legal trouble Paizo can't go with the "sorry, it's something not on our server, yeah it was linked on our forums but you know, we don't control that etc etc" defense line.
Hence the "post WotC conversions on my website and link to them on Paizo forums instead" idea isn't gonna work.
Knowing WotC they would probably try it just to make Paizo lose money in legal fees, even if they did not beleive they could win the case.
Knowing WotC they would probably try it just to make Paizo lose money in legal fees, even if they did not beleive they could win the case.
Posts like this are inflammatory and unnecessary.
Knowing WotC they would probably try it just to make Paizo lose money in legal fees, even if they did not beleive they could win the case.Posts like this are inflammatory and unnecessary.
You seem like a decent person so I will be nice and not express anymore opinions of WoTC.
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Knowing WotC they would probably try it just to make Paizo lose money in legal fees, even if they did not beleive they could win the case.Posts like this are inflammatory and unnecessary.
Um, not really. It's a common legal scare tactic when it comes to IP stuff. The big company can usually afford the cost of legal stuff, so it brings the hammer down hard on smaller competitors who appear to have violated IP. Even if the smaller guy wins legally, the legal cost is usually crippling. If the big company does this once or twice, it serves as pretty good deterrent for anyone else that might think about IP violations.
Of course, from what I've seen in the past (back in the 3.x era), the usual WotC tactic was a prompt and firm Cease & Desist letter. The relationship between the Paizo folks and the WotC folks seems cordial enough, but I don't know if that cordiality extends to the WotC/Hasbro legal department. If an IP issue came up, I'd bet on a C&D letter, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro/WotC did decide to bring the full legal force to bear. It's a proven tactic, and they have been more strict with IP stuff since 4e.
I agree and all. Whether you're right or wrong, getting lawyers sending certified stuff to you is no damn fun.
What I find ironic is that a mindflayer is basically a shrunken purple C'thulhu without any damn wings, and H.P. Lovecraft LOVED for and ENCOURAGED people to borrow his mytho's and add to them.
It ought to be SRD by proxy. I know it ain't but it ought to be.
+1
As for WotC IP monsters, I mean, the 3.5 stuff is perfectly usable, why 'update' it? It seems like a lot of trouble and possible legal concerns when you can pop your old MM open and play the beastie 'as is'. I mean, that was whole point of 'backwards compatibility' right? A few nips and tucks and any beast should be ready to go in a PF game in about five minutes.
Also, I always stick up for IP rights. The second word in IP is 'property'. Songs, shows and games take time and money to develop. When you take them for free, you make it harder for said artists to eat and develop even more stuff. Just because something exists solely in the digital realm doesn't mean taking it without paying isn't wrong. Someone spent a lot of time making it, and just because it isn't made of solid matter doesn't make its value any less.
Knowing WotC they would probably try it just to make Paizo lose money in legal fees, even if they did not beleive they could win the case.Posts like this are inflammatory and unnecessary.
I agree with Scott. Less of this please.
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As for WotC IP monsters, I mean, the 3.5 stuff is perfectly usable, why 'update' it? It seems like a lot of trouble and possible legal concerns when you can pop your old MM open and play the beastie 'as is'. I mean, that was whole point of 'backwards compatibility' right? A few nips and tucks and any beast should be ready to go in a PF game in about five minutes.
Stupid monkey, pointing out the obvious... :P
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Up to a point. It didn't stop TSR from being sued by Chaosium for putting in the Cthulu Mythos in the original printing of the Dieties and DemiGods, as it was Chaosium who owned the gaming rights to the Lovecraft material.H.P. Lovecraft LOVED for and ENCOURAGED people to borrow his mytho's and add to them.
It ought to be SRD by proxy. I know it ain't but it ought to be.
Point well taken.
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The original intent of IP law was to give the creator 4 years of a "monopoly" on their idea. Thanks to the big D with mouse ears it's been extended a LOT longer than that. Does PIAZO have an on-staff or even friendly lawyer that could let us know if something created by someone not even affiliated with WotC a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away is even covered considered their "property" at this point in time?
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Creative Director
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Up to a point. It didn't stop TSR from being sued by Chaosium for putting in the Cthulu Mythos in the original printing of the Dieties and DemiGods, as it was Chaosium who owned the gaming rights to the Lovecraft material.H.P. Lovecraft LOVED for and ENCOURAGED people to borrow his mytho's and add to them.
It ought to be SRD by proxy. I know it ain't but it ought to be.
This is actually an urban legend. TSR had permission to put the Cthulhu and Melnibonian mythos into the book; they gratefully thanked Chaosium in the front of the book in the legal text.
The material was removed because TSR management was uncomfortable with what they felt was free advertising for the competition; they didn't want something in a TSR book to lead folks to seek out game material from another company.
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"Mind flayers first appeared in the official newsletter of TSR Games, The Strategic Review #1, Spring 1975."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illithid
"Copyright protection for works published prior to January 1, 1978 was increased by 20 years to a total of 95 years from their publication date."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act
And I'm guessing the fee to license it from WotC is WAY more than it's worth, that's too bad...
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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And I'm guessing the fee to license it from WotC is WAY more than it's worth, that's too bad...
We could always ask if they mind. Has anyone asked? Maybe they'll be cool about it. They're just people, like us.
OT supplementary and qualifying information
Instead of Mind Flayers you could to Mime Fileters. That would surely work.
Of course they may have a different alignment, because of the mimes.
Here, let me convert mind flayers to PF for you. Their CMB is their grapple modifier. Their CMD is 10 + their grapple mod + their dex mod. They gain one feat. Do not convert their Improved Grab to PF grab for flavor reasons.
There, enjoy.
LOL ... Now that's what I am talking about :)
Do not convert their Improved Grab to PF grab for flavor reasons.
Why not? There are exactly two differences between PF Grab and 3.5 Improved Grab:
PF Grab provides +4 to Grapple checks, unlike 3.5 Improved Grab.
3.5 Improved Grab pulls the grabbed character into the monster's space, unlike PF Grab.
Everything else is word-for-word the same, and I think the +4 bonus is worth more :)
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This is actually an urban legend. TSR had permission to put the Cthulhu and Melnibonian mythos into the book; they gratefully thanked Chaosium in the front of the book in the legal text.
The material was removed because TSR management was uncomfortable with what they felt was free advertising for the competition; they didn't want something in a TSR book to lead folks to seek out game material from another company.
Wow! I've been believing that urban legend as truth for years. Thank you for the information, James!
I learned something new today. :)
-J
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I agree with Scott. Less of this please.Knowing WotC they would probably try it just to make Paizo lose money in legal fees, even if they did not beleive they could win the case.Posts like this are inflammatory and unnecessary.
I find this entirely unfair. I work in an industry where companies sue each other over IP rights day in and day out. They have essentially have a roving pool of money that moves from company to company as one suit in January creates a penalty against Company A which is paid out to Company B which then gets moved to Company C from Company B due to another suit, which goes back to Company A from C via another suit.
In today's corporate environs, I wouldn't put it past any company to sue somebody simply to reduce their coffers, and that's not a smack against WoTC, that's a smack against any company as large as Hasbro. Simply stating that fact is not inflammatory or unnecessary, it's a simple fact of today's corporate sue-happy atmosphere.
Here, let me convert mind flayers to PF for you. Their CMB is their grapple modifier. Their CMD is 10 + their grapple mod + their dex mod. They gain one feat. Do not convert their Improved Grab to PF grab for flavor reasons.
There, enjoy.
Whoa-whoa-whoa...slow down there. I dropped my pencil.
Yet another reason to move the Paizo HQ to Europe !
Claimant "Your tentacled monsters violate our IP, we demand 3 million USD !"
US Court: "Fine, defendant please pay up !"
any EU Court: "whiskey tango foxtrot ?"
Let's start my UK office out small and go from there.
Woah! I see my thread here got some traffic.
So it looks like the consensus is "makes devs nervous, please don't do it".
I shall abide Mr. Jacob's wishes. I'm probably going to post them somewhere eventually, but if I do, I won't advertise it here as a conversion of Wizard's IP or make mention of copyrighted characters.
Thanks for the replies.