Wow, clearly I differ from the opinions of most everyone out there. After reading the healing hex and doing the math I was shocked and appalled that the witch over the course of a single day could conceivably cast 14,400 cure light wound spells. Granted it is nigh impossible for them to cast one every round for a full day, but the capability is there. And this from the start as a level 1 witch.
Unless I am grossly misreading this at low levels the witch is so above par for the cleric it is not funny.
4 characters seems to be the standard now a days so lets start there.
A party of level 1 characters with a Cleric (12 Wis minimum for bonus) would have the capacity for 2 1st level spells plus a domain spell. That would grant a maximum of 3 castings of cure light wounds if the healing domain had been taken.
At Second level this would go up to 4 castings of cure light wounds.
At third level they would gain access to cure moderate and would have 4 cure light and up to 3 cure moderate (again assuming high enough stat for a bonus and the healing domain.)
All this assuming that the cleric didn't actually use any of his spells for anything else.Same process for a witch...
Healing Hex grants 1 casting per person per day, so that is 4 before getting to the spells.
Wow, look at that spell progression, it matches the clerics minus the domain spells so take 1 off at each level for the capacity. So 2 at 1st, 3 at 2nd, 3 and 2 at 3rd...Now granted the cleric could be converting his spells to cures and the witch would need to decide in advance to take them. But with the healing hex I think this is more than balanced.
Starting at 5th the cleric would pick up a new level of cures that the witch will not get till 7th where the cleric is advancing again. But by 5th + the party could begin laying it's hands on consumable items to help keep the witch as an able healer.
Lets not forget the benefit of being able to throw a cure light wounds on every Joe NPC the party encounters without needing to worry about...
You are completely ignoring the 2 main things that make a cleric a good healier, channel positive energy, and the ability to SPONTANEOUSLY cast heal spells. No witch will prepare all heal spells, a cleric doesnt have to.
In a number of published scenarios I see all kinds of events with Civilian casualties. Whether in a "war" situation, or the trouble makers at the...
I think this is a big part of your issue. The game is not balanced around the idea of a war situation. Outside of a war situation, the witch's healing abilities balance out just fine, and that's what matters.
The witch has a shtick they can use outside of their spellslots - the hex. So, if you give them healing spells at the same level as the cleric and, as a result, they were pressured into filling those slots with healing spells, that would be okay because they could still participate in an encounter using their hex ability. This is in sharp contrast to the old 2e style cleric heal bot who couldn't really do anything else when they were loaded down with memorized cure spells. I don't think either route makes the witch too powerful, it's just a question of whether you want them to be a primary healer or not and the consequences of that decision on how they play.
Your argument is akin to saying the following:
"The cleric shouldn't get heavy armor proficiency [in 3e] because there will be pressure on him to tank."
"The fighter shouldn't get ranged weapon proficiency because there will be pressure on him to fight with a bow."
"The monk shouldn't do decent unarmed damage because there will be pressure on him to fight unarmed."
"The ranger shouldn't get spells because there will be pressure on him to cast spells."
My hair is a bird; your argument is invalid.
Whether in a "war" situation, or the trouble makers at the fair, muscle for the local thieves guild taking protection money... I think the witches' ability to tend to these individuals without concern can have a massive impact from a role playing perspective that others do not seem to share.
Are you serious? You're complaining about the witch's healing ability because there might be a war and she can heal an army, person-by-person, once per day?
Seriously?
At level one, the cleric can heal thousands of damage. How?
The cleric heals in a 30' burst. If the cleric stands on a platform (allowing him to heal in a sphere), that allows him to hit over 100 squares with his positive energy burst. Given the grapple rules, we'll say that two people can fit in a single square. That's over 200d6 healing in a single round. And he can do that 3 + his Cha mod times per day, so you're probably looking at over 1000d6 healing in a single day.
That's one cleric. In just a few rounds. The witch can pump out 1000d8 + 1000 healing in a day, but it's going to takes hours to do so.
You are completely ignoring the 2 main things that make a cleric a good healier, channel positive energy, and the ability to SPONTANEOUSLY cast heal spells. No witch will prepare all heal spells, a cleric doesnt have to.I will grant you I forgot to include the channeling, and that makes a big difference in the healing capabilities of the cleric. More so I think than the ability to convert spells.
I listed in my description that Clerics could cast all cure spells if desired
Now granted the cleric could be converting his spells to cures and the witch would need to decide in advance to take them.I DM so I see things more from that perspective than a players, I will allow you. Last time I tried to play a game the campaigh fell apart in no time...
Regardless, the statement that a cleric can spontaneously convert their spells to healing still means they need to hold back on their casting to have them available to do so. In the three campaigns I have run in the past few years using 3.5 rules I have seen the clerics struggling to decide between casting the buff or utility spell and holding on to the ability in case healing was needed down the line.
The Witch with the Healing hex can "Spontaneously" cast cure light wounds a number of times equal to the number of individuals present and still have all her spells for the day.
The Cleric can "Spontaneously" cast up to the number of his spells remaining. And hope they don't need any of the other spells they prepared the rest of the day.
I do not argue that clerics and they grow in levels are more powerful healers of their own ability. The only class that came close to rivaling the cleric as a Healer was the "Healer" from the Miniatures handbook, and with the introduction of channeling positive energy I do not know if they come close any more.
In a number of published scenarios I see all kinds of events with Civilian casualties. Whether in a "war" situation, or the trouble makers at the...
There are scenarios and specific situations where the cure hex is really good, but they are overwhelmingly less common then when channel energy is really good (which is always especially with selective channel).
And you are way understating the potential of spontaneously casting cure spells.
If a witch takes the cure hex at level one and prepares all cure spells, she is entirely a bandaid. She does nothing else.
A cleric however has the OPTION of making his spells cure, but can still crank out a bless, or divine power, or whatever other spell they prepared and actually be a caster.
No witch will ever, ever, EVER prepare all cure spells. It wont happen, not now not ever. At level 1, if they prepare 1 and have the cure hex they are being really really generous and quite gimpy. The witch WILL prepare none cure spells, the cleric doesnt have to worry about it. If healing is needed he can heal, but he still has actual spells to cast.
So lets examine this from the perspective of a 4 person party again.
Witch has 18 int, Cleric has 18 wisdom, and a 14 charisma.
Lets look at level 1.
The witch has prepared 1 cure light wounds because there is no pary healer, there are 3 other members of the party. She is able to do 1d8+1 points of healing 4 times per day. Thats an average of 22 points of healing.
The cleric can cast 2 Cure light wounds spells for 1d8+1 per day, and heal all 3 part members for 1d6 5 times per day. And he still has his domain spell and domain power lying around along with descent ability to hit something with a mace. That is 28.5 points of healing without gimping himself. If he wanted to go to the extent the witch does he would have gone healing domain, doing another cure light wounds AND if any of his buddies go below 0 hipoints thas an addition 7d4 hp healed.
Lets move on shall we?
Level 3.
Both casters can cast 3 first level spells and 2 second level spells
The witch again because she fears for her parties saftey has prepared both cure light wound and cure moderate wounds but only one of each. The Cleric, well he doesnt have to.
The witch can now cast 1 cure light wounds, one cure moderate wounds and 3 uses of the healing hex. That is (1d8+3)*4 + 2d8+3. Total:
42 HP
The cleric can cast 3 cure light wounds, 2 cure moderate wounds, and channel for 2d6 5 times a day. Total: 139.5 points of healing on average. If he has the healing domain thats another 7d4 to dying allies, and another cure light and cure moderate.
You wanna know how this turns out? Massive and i mean MASSIVE healing differences, and with one feat, selective channel the cleric can do it all in combat, 30ft radius is gonna cover mose rooms, and can easily grap all 3 party members in the midst of a fight. He can also take extra channel, increasing his healing even more.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Your argument is akin to saying the following:"The cleric shouldn't get heavy armor proficiency [in 3e] because there will be pressure on him to tank."
"The fighter shouldn't get ranged weapon proficiency because there will be pressure on him to fight with a bow."
"The monk shouldn't do decent unarmed damage because there will be pressure on him to fight unarmed."
"The ranger shouldn't get spells because there will be pressure on him to cast spells."My hair is a bird; your argument is invalid.
Once again, you've captured the absolute essence of my argument and done so with such a level of honest analytics and integrity that I could not even begin to beg your conclusion. You are correct, it is entirely invalid and without merit. I'm so glad you didn't go overboard and purposefully miss the point of what I was saying or try to restate a relatively clear argument into something that is wrong or crammed into an incorrect analogy. I particularly like how you assumed the answer to the question I was trying to provoke and bypassed all the hard thinking and tedious discussion about whether the witch should be a healer and what that entails. Your assertion that the argument I didn't even make was incorrect was a much better way of handling the issue. Thanks so much for your assistance.
I am sorry, I would never allow it as a DM.
From page 214 A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners)So it isn't even possible to have everyone laid out in layers to avoid putting weight on top of them.
You know, it isn't worth it. I knew there was a reason I did not post in these forums. I won't make the mistake again...
You can get upset if you want, but you started the whole swing of the rediculousness with the 14400 comment. How exactly is it any more reasonable to line up a 14 thousand injured people then to pile them up into a nice little ball for a channel energy? Both examples are rediculous, and they are not based on what actually happens in the overwhelming majority of dnd games. See my comments on the actual 4 person party comparison for details on that.
Oh and by the way, while you cant pile them up into a ball, if you have a whole bunch of dieing npcs and a little help from your party or other npcs, you can put them all in a 30ft radius of you and cure them all with a channel energy, with far fewer of them bleeding out while waiting for the witch hex. So even in those rare situations when you need to heal a whole bunch of npcs at once, the cleric is much, much better.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
So, really... You are going to take the torn and mangled bodies, throw them in a great big pile, completely disregard that the poor souls on the bottom are going to get crushed by the tons of weight mounded on top of them. Lets also disregard the raw man hours it would take to get everyone into position for this healing.... And then the platform itself would block part of the effect. Or are you somehow making them all fly.I am sorry, I would never allow it as a DM.
From page 214 A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners)So it isn't even possible to have everyone laid out in layers to avoid putting weight on top of them.
You know, it isn't worth it. I knew there was a reason I did not post in these forums. I won't make the mistake again...
I wouldn't let the black and white thinking that crops up in the playtest section dissuade you from the boards. The other forums have a lot of good posters, many of whom are willing to entertain ideas without having to be right all the time.
Here's how I see your issue - please let me know if I'm not stating it correctly. You're not so much concerned with the effects of the healing hexes in combat/adventuring, but rather on society as a whole. I can dig that, I frequently have issues like that myself. Things like raise dead would also have significant effects on the game world and for the most part, those are hand-waived away. I think the argument about the cleric's healing capacity has some merit to it, albeit not in the war context. Given that the cleric can heal in a 30' burst multiple times a day, I could see how that would warp society pretty dramatically. Sure, you can't realistically stack a hundred people in a 30' sphere, but you could easily have the injured people in a city come by the church, crowd into an enclosed space, and thereby heal large numbers of people with the ability. The cleric channel is a potential source of a very large amount of healing if used in situations like that.
I'm sympathetic to the view that such easy access to healing would have profound effects on the game world. I'm just not sure that the witch is all that much more dramatic than the already existing abilities of the various classes.
Do you have any thoughts on how to limit the witch's healing to prevent the situation you described without decreasing their ability to be an effective healer in the adventuring party context?
So, really... You are going to take the torn and mangled bodies, throw them in a great big pile, completely disregard that the poor souls on the bottom are going to get crushed by the tons of weight mounded on top of them. Lets also disregard the raw man hours it would take to get everyone into position for this healing.... And then the platform itself would block part of the effect. Or are you somehow making them all fly.
I'm not going to go into the gymnastics of how many people you might heal with channel, but the answer is "a bunch". As for ridiculous, it's not any sillier than the witch healing hundreds or thousands of dying people. Ultimately unless you have perfect timing most of those thousands of people will be dead by the time the witch gets to them.
The game system is designed and balanced around a 4-6 character party. The further you deviate from that 4-6 character party the stranger things get.
Ultimately all of the abilities make a lot more sense if you put the phrase "Within Reason" behind them. Within reason being within what th GM thinks is reasonable.
The witch's hex does not have a limit to how many times per day it can be used "within reason"
A cleric's channel does not have any limit on how many people it can heal in a 30' radius "within reason".
Once again, you've captured the absolute essence of my argument and done so with such a level of honest analytics and integrity that I could not even begin to beg your conclusion. You are correct, it is entirely invalid and without merit. I'm so glad you didn't go overboard and purposefully miss the point of what I was saying or try to restate a relatively clear argument into something that is wrong or crammed into an incorrect analogy. I particularly like how you assumed the answer to the question I was trying to provoke and bypassed all the hard thinking and tedious discussion about whether the witch should be a healer and what that entails. Your assertion that the argument I didn't even make was incorrect was a much better way of handling the issue. Thanks so much for your assistance.
I agree completely.
Playing healers generally isn't fun.
Clerics get around this fact because they can convert into healing.
Witches don't have this ability.
That doesn't mean non-cleric healers are useless or that classes with some healing ability are worthless. I have no idea how that conclusion could even be drawn.
So what you're saying is that the witch might feel pressured into being a healer, which would be un-fun for the witch. I agree. However, by making the witch class bad at healing (with retarded progression), you're double-crippling the party. Not only can the witch not fill the role as a primary healer, but it forces someone else to pick up the healing slack, causing them to be shackled with double-healing duty.
Example: A party has a cleric and druid. The druid can prepare a few heal spells, but the cleric has greater healing potential, so it's not necessary.
Example: A party has a druid but no cleric. The druid has to prepare healing spells because the party has no other healing potential. On top of this, the druid's retarded healing progression makes him bad at healing.
Example: A party has a cleric and witch. The witch can prepare a few heal spells, but the cleric has greater healing potential, so it's not necessary.
Example: A party has a witch but no cleric. The witch has to prepare healing spells because the party has no other healing potential. On top of this, the witch's retarded healing progression makes him bad at healing.
Example: A party has an evil cleric and a witch. Both have to prepare a good number of healing spells, wasting their resources on healing.
Example: A party has an evil cleric and a witch without retarded healing progression. Both can prepare a few healing spells to cover the majority of the party's healing needs.
Giving the witch access to cure spells at the same level as the cleric will result in them getting a similar amount of pressure in terms of spell preparation, but without the release valve of being able to convert healing spells on the fly.
Allow me to translate this to an analogy:
"Giving the cleric heavy armor proficiency (like the fighter) will result in them getting a similar amount of pressure to fight in close combat but without the release valve of having full BAB."
|
Can I point out that Frank said he thought the Witch was balanced as a game mechanic?
He only threw the 14000 number to show that from an RP point of view the witch is a better "healer" in the classic "on my god there is a fire in our town and all the children got burned what will we do?" sort of way. He said that to indicate that while the Witch might not be as useful to a party as a cleric, the goodwill earned in return would be worth the diminished ability.
It is a fluff point that he illustrated with some silly crunch.
In a world where witches can heal everyone they meet in a day, why wouldn't they be the de facto "common man" go to person for help?
The witch is a better GP, the cleric is a better surgeon if you want a silly analogy.
|
|
Allow me to translate this to an analogy:
"Giving the cleric heavy armor proficiency (like the fighter) will result in them getting a similar amount of pressure to fight in close combat but without the release valve of having full BAB."
I will say that some players are more aggressive on the healers than they would be on an alternate tank. Most groups seem less concerned with damage output than with living or being up to snuff for the next one so I think the healing issue is slightly different. "I want someone else to be the beotch" etc.
That said, I do agree with you that it doesn't have to be that way merely by virtue of providing more healing to witches. I think there are some culture and table issues that go into the argument that I don't necessarily feel the game should have to accommodate although I am sympathetic to the situation that Sebastian presents.
I have to admit that I am divided. Especially if I read Frank Timar right because I agree that there is an "other" aspect of benefit to the healing that might be considered. In some senses I almost agree with Sebastian's point for the reverse; I am not worried that witches are pigeon-holed, I want to ensure clerics as party healers role dominance. That is a fluff concern however brought by many fond memories of *being* the go-to cleric and as I said it doesn't have to be a mechanics thing to legislate.
Anyway. My 2 CP