I really don't like the retarded healing progression that the witch suffers (same as the druid's). Clerics will always be the kings of the healing hill because they can spontaneously convert their spells to healing spells. Since the witch doesn't have this particular boon, I don't think that the witch is going to be overpowered (or steal the show from the cleric) if she has standard healing progression.
EDIT: In case anyone doesn't know, I'm not saying that the witch's healing progression is stupid; I'm saying that it's slowed down (retarded). I'm using the actual definition of the term, not the slang.
I really don't like the retarded healing progression that the witch suffers (same as the druid's). Clerics will always be the kings of the healing hill because they can spontaneously convert their spells to healing spells. Since the witch doesn't have this particular boon, I don't think that the witch is going to be overpowered (or steal the show from the cleric) if she has standard healing progression.
I don't think witch are made to be healers of any sort, not even secondary healers like the druid is. They just have some healing abilities because it makes sense from a fluff point of view.
PS: They get their cure spells at the same time the clerics and druids do.
The witch's cure spells are a level behind (like the druid's).
They can use wands of cure light wounds, and cast heal much later on, not really much more I can ask for from a healing class, except maybe being a cleric, but I think that's asking for a bit too much.
That's the point. I'm not asking them to be a cleric--just asking them to have standard healing progression. Since they already have to prepare healing spells (rather than being able to swap them out), the witch is already behind the cleric.
The use of CLW wands is largely a cheap trick, and I wish we'd stop considering it standard practice. The point is, being behind a spell level behind is incredibly annoying. Either the class is able to be a healer or it isn't. Allowing a class to fill in for the Cleric doesn't mean it will step on its toes. I personally think this was a major mistake not to fix with the druid.
Sorry, have trouble getting past the feeling of Cleric being OP since...well always, but in seriousness, looking at it more, I'm inclined to agree as they are a half speed BA, they just have such a split spell list between arcane and divine, I can see it being a tough call to make. Just need to think of it as the normal healing progression, cleric's are the jerks with the accelerated version.
Right now I am willing to see how the class works with the staggered heal spell progression. Lets not jump to "retarded" so quickly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I don't think he meant retarded in a derogatory sense. I think he meant retarded 'slowed', as in 'you retarded the heal progression', not 'that was retarded.'
Right now I am willing to see how the class works with the staggered heal spell progression. Lets not jump to "retarded" so quickly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason, I was using "retarded" in the sense of the verb (to retard). I wasn't saying that it was "retarded" as in "bad" or "dumb."
Director of Games
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Jason, I was using "retarded" in the sense of the verb--to retard. It is slowed down. I wasn't using the slang term.Right now I am willing to see how the class works with the staggered heal spell progression. Lets not jump to "retarded" so quickly.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I am well aware of what he meant... but not all folks will see the word and understand that...
EDIT: Yeah.. I kinda jumped the gun and missed the post script there... I have edited my original post.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
copied and pasted form the pdf
2nd-Level Witch Spells
Cure Moderate Wounds
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From the Prd
School conjuration (healing); Level bard 2, cleric 2, druid 3, paladin 3, ranger 3
Now the strange thing is the rest of the witch's cure spells skipped one level and fall in line with the druid. Was cure mod supposed to be in line with the druid also?
Looking at the witches healing progression, with its ability to use hex healing at low level is pretty powerful and then as the witches healing starts to proggress the hex fades out and becomes a nice little booster for stabalizing. As for worrying about the witches healing, if your worried about making the disney good witch of life, take a look at the rest of theres spells and there hex bonuses for there allies and it all falls together rather nicely.
To increase the healing spell proggression on the witch would most likely be to powerful because then they can heal an ally, hex heal an ally, then hex +2 ac/saves.
The witch is beast, its obvious, to increase its healing anymore would be, well to put it lightly, rediculous
To increase the healing spell proggression on the witch would most likely be to powerful because then they can heal an ally, hex heal an ally, then hex +2 ac/saves.
I fail to see how doing all of these things is too powerful. The witch has all of these options, but each is a standard action, which you can only do once/round. Compare that to some of the things a cleric or wizard can do.
The witch is beast, its obvious, to increase its healing anymore would be, well to put it lightly, rediculous
I guess I don't understand how it would be ridiculous. I'm only talking about giving them a full normal healing progression. As it stands, healing isn't really OMG powerful until you get the actual "heal" spell, so it's not really giving the class a huge boost in ability.
The thing that makes a cleric an awesome healer isn't the fact that they get the spells they do at the level they do, it's their ability to convert their existing spells to heals and to channel energy. In no way would fixing the witch healing touch that. The only way the witch can be a competent healer is if they devote their precious spell slots to it and, if the accept the opportunity cost of the other spells on their list, I see no reason they shouldn't be at least capable healers.
The thing, as cool as the healing hexes seem, lots of weak healing isn't that great. The times that healing really counts (namely, when a character is severely wounded) that one level is the difference between being a competent healer and a crap healer.
In games that I've played, druids typically don't even waste their spell slots on healing. Why bother using your slots on abilities that are sup-par compared to others of your level? And the witch is still somewhat less powerful than the druid, so I don't see why giving it a little boost is going overboard.
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I guess I don't understand how it would be ridiculous. I'm only talking about giving them a full normal healing progression. As it stands, healing isn't really OMG powerful until you get the actual "heal" spell, so it's not really giving the class a huge boost in ability.The thing that makes a cleric an awesome healer isn't the fact that they get the spells they do at the level they do, it's their ability to convert their existing spells to heals and to channel energy. In no way would fixing the witch healing touch that. The only way the witch can be a competent healer is if they devote their precious spell slots to it and, if the accept the opportunity cost of the other spells on their list, I see no reason they shouldn't be at least capable healers.
The thing, as cool as the healing hexes seem, lots of weak healing isn't that great. The times that healing really counts (namely, when a character is severely wounded) that one level is the difference between being a competent healer and a crap healer.
In games that I've played, druids typically don't even waste their spell slots on healing. Why bother using your slots on abilities that are sup-par compared to others of your level? And the witch is still somewhat less powerful than the druid, so I don't see why giving it a little boost is going overboard.
I agree that the Witch, even with a more powerful healing hex, isn't going to overshadow a Cleric in healing. Spontaneous cure spells and channeling are tough to compete with. However, I'd prefer that the Witch's healing hexes filled a different niche. The cure spells are decent combat healing and having them on their spell list is nice (if only to let them use wands without needing UMD).
My suggestion would be to change the healing hexes to give fast healing (like the Vigor spells of 3.5). So a Witch could slowly heal a single target of say, 10hp, over the course of ten rounds as their minor hex (perhaps allow a little scaling with level or Int bonus?). I suggest this only because I think downtime healing is a niche that very few casters fill, and which fits the Witch's flavor quite well. They're still no replacement for a combat healer, like a Cleric. And they fill that role as well as a Druid. Which is to say, barely and only if absolutely necessary. But a slight change to the hex and they get a vastly different healing role.
I think they will get by just fine, same as Druids.
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I think they will get by just fine, same as Druids.
I think actual play testing will determine whether the healing hexes need to scale at all, but that's not really part of my own recommendation. I'm just suggesting that their healing be different rather than a generic cure light wounds spell.
I'll get to the question of whether the current powers are lackluster at later levels through some play testing.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think giving the witch better healing might be something of a detriment to the class. Back when clerics couldn't convert into cure spells, there was a lot of pressure from the rest of the party to have them prepare a lot of cure spells. Giving them the ability to spontaneously convert took a lot of that pressure off and made the cleric much more fun to play. Giving the witch access to cure spells at the same level as the cleric will result in them getting a similar amount of pressure in terms of spell preparation, but without the release valve of being able to convert healing spells on the fly.
To me, the cure spells on the druid, witch, or bard are as much about allowing those classes to use cure wands/scrolls as they are about having them cast those spells directly. Having the spells be at a higher level for the witch gives the class the ability to be a second-best healer and use healing items without forcing them to swap out cool spells for boring old cure spells.
That argument makes no sense whatsoever. You seem to be arguing that witches should have gimped healing because otherwise people might want them to heal. Therefore, by having gimped healing, they can fill in as a second-string healer. But people won't want them to heal because of their gimped healing.
What.
Clerics will always be the kings of the healing hill because they can spontaneously convert their spells to healing spells.
Actually, I think the Oracle of Life (or whatever the healing focus will be called) will outheal the cleric.
Ugh, I personally dislike the idea of channeling party wealth into expendable items. I like that the witch can heal, and I like the rate at which it can. I see them as on par with any druid who takes up the role of backup healer (which should be the only healer in the group), and I don't understand the issues with that.
Ugh, I personally dislike the idea of channeling party wealth into expendable items. I like that the witch can heal, and I like the rate at which it can. I see them as on par with any druid who takes up the role of backup healer (which should be the only healer in the group), and I don't understand the issues with that.
The issue, as I see it, is that most druids can't keep up with the party's need for a healer. Depending on level, that one level of staggering can be the difference between pointless or not. That being said, having heals at the same level as clerics (instead of staggered) isn't a major boost in personal power, it just helps the group. And the witch is less powerful than the druid anyway. So either she's a healer or she's not. I guess I don't see the argument for why she SHOULD be staggered.
I removed a couple posts. Feel free to try again in a more diplomatic fashion.
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To me, the cure spells on the druid, witch, or bard are as much about allowing those classes to use cure wands/scrolls as they are about having them cast those spells directly. Having the spells be at a higher level for the witch gives the class the ability to be a second-best healer and use healing items without forcing them to swap out cool spells for boring old cure spells.
I agree here. The lowly wand of CLW is underestimated in its utilty. Just having the spell on your list makes you a healer. Doesn't matter where on the list it is.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That argument makes no sense whatsoever. You seem to be arguing that witches should have gimped healing because otherwise people might want them to heal. Therefore, by having gimped healing, they can fill in as a second-string healer. But people won't want them to heal because of their gimped healing.
What.
try but with diplomacy!
healers generally isn't fun.
get around this fact because they can convert into healing
Witches don't have this
That doesn't mean non-cleric are or that classes with some healing ability are worthless. I have no idea how that conclusion could even
So instead of making the witch a viable (albeit weak) healer, you'd recommend forcing them to be terrible at healing? Just so that they wouldn't have people expecting them to heal because they would be terrible at healing. Even though you want them to be able to heal a little. Even though they would be terrible at it.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So instead of making the witch a viable (albeit weak) healer, you'd recommend forcing them to be terrible at healing? Just so that they wouldn't have people expecting them to heal because they would be terrible at healing. Even though you want them to be able to heal a little. Even though they would be terrible at it.
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Well done on parsing my argument, I couldn't have put it better myself. Your reading comprehension and analytical abilities are absolutely peerless. You must be very proud.
You're going to have to explain it a little better, then.
Sebastian:
You're coming across as perhaps slightly too patronising.
Edit:
Where are the smurfs when you need them??? This thread needs more smurfs.
Look, Sebastion just failed his diplomacy check. It happens.
We could forget about the spell list and improve the hexes?
I really think the healing Hexes should instead be useable x/day (at least once) on each character. X is equal to 1/5th the level of the witch.
I don't see how letting a witch heal someone with CLW 2/day with their hex at level 10 too strong on each person.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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No it isn't.
Okay, I'll give you a substantive counter-argument to my point that doesn't rely on feigned ignorance or gross mis-statement:
The witch has a shtick they can use outside of their spellslots - the hex. So, if you give them healing spells at the same level as the cleric and, as a result, they were pressured into filling those slots with healing spells, that would be okay because they could still participate in an encounter using their hex ability. This is in sharp contrast to the old 2e style cleric heal bot who couldn't really do anything else when they were loaded down with memorized cure spells. I don't think either route makes the witch too powerful, it's just a question of whether you want them to be a primary healer or not and the consequences of that decision on how they play.
Diplomatic and substantive. How's that?
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No it isn't.Okay, I'll give you a substantive counter-argument to my point that doesn't rely on feigned ignorance or gross mis-statement:
The witch has a shtick they can use outside of their spellslots - the hex. So, if you give them healing spells at the same level as the cleric and, as a result, they were pressured into filling those slots with healing spells, that would be okay because they could still participate in an encounter using their hex ability. This is in sharp contrast to the old 2e style cleric heal bot who couldn't really do anything else when they were loaded down with memorized cure spells. I don't think either route makes the witch too powerful, it's just a question of whether you want them to be a primary healer or not and the consequences of that decision on how they play.
Diplomatic and substantive. How's that?
Diplomatic and Substantive.
I think that having another possible class as a primary healer would be a good addition to the game. It allows someone who wants to play a cleric and yet not the primary healer, an option to do so.
Jason has stated that he intends to adjust the healing hexes, probably to raise the first to cure moderate at 5-6 and the second to cure critical at 15-16. These would be a great boon to the class, and take some of the pressure off of healing (as was stated previously).
I think a great addition to the class would be allowing them to spontaneously cast their familiar spells and then including a "healer" familiar with access similar to the healing domain.
I think that having another possible class as a primary healer would be a good addition to the game. It allows someone who wants to play a cleric and yet not the primary healer, an option to do so.
I'm ok with the idea of a new primary healer class but I don't think that fits well with the theme of the witch. Maybe an oracle of health?
I'm of the opinion it would work better as fast healing 1 then 2 for the lesser healing hex and 5 then 10 on the greater healing hex with a duration equal to the witch's int mod.
I think that having another possible class as a primary healer would be a good addition to the game. It allows someone who wants to play a cleric and yet not the primary healer, an option to do so.
The thing is, I don't see how that makes the witch a primary healer. Yes, they will have full healing, but, they won't be competing with the cleric or the healing oracle, they'll just be less crappy than the druid.
Considering both origin lore and other class features, I think it's perfectly appropriate for them to be exactly as "crappy" as the druid.
But since they get heal, they're better anyway.
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The thing is, I don't see how that makes the witch a primary healer. Yes, they will have full healing, but, they won't be competing with the cleric or the healing oracle, they'll just be less crappy than the druid.
I think that having another possible class as a primary healer would be a good addition to the game. It allows someone who wants to play a cleric and yet not the primary healer, an option to do so.
and that is fine. You don't want a class that steps on the toes of another class. Just one that will work for the party needs if you don't have a cleric around. It would be different if we also gave the witch channel.
Considering both origin lore and other class features, I think it's perfectly appropriate for them to be exactly as "crappy" as the druid.
But since they get heal, they're better anyway.
Both Witches and Druids get heal.
Do keep in mind that all of the cure wounds spells (before mass) are touch range, and so is heal. This means that a cleric/druid/bard needs to run to an ally's aid to apply the spell, but a witch can send her familiar. This is a real boon if it means avoiding AoOs, relying on a familiar's superior movement speed(s), or simply avoiding having to spend more than a single round to reach the ally. The witch can't cast any spells before the familiar finishes her spell (otherwise it's lost), but she's got a slew of hexes that she can cast in the process.
Both Witches and Druids get heal.
...well holy crap. And that's not even new to PFRPG. How did I just not know that? :P I was actually under the impression that it was deliberately omitted from the druid list to give the cleric something unique, and was amazed to see it for the witch!
Ok, seriously? How many different people is the actual witch going to find in need of healing in a given day? It's the amount of healing at a time and not the amount of healing in a day that effects usefulness in a small combat game like D&D. Yes, the hex mechanic can get wonky in a large battlefield, but most games aren't played that way.
Lots of weak healing doesn't make a character powerful.