The first thing I noticed about Witches when trying to build one is that they have no umlimited/high-uses-per-day attack option, unlike all the other full casters. The only offensive cantrip they get is daze, which is so limited that it's not a viable backup attack, and they get no school/bloodline/domain abilities. That means they're back to the 3.5 "better bring a crossbow" paradigm. Which is lame. I realize they're not intended to be primary nukers, but it wouldn't kill the class to give them acid splash.
I really want to change my chaotic neutral wizard into a witch. But there are problems.
Because witches use a specialized spell list, all of the 3e/3.5e supplements you have are incompatible unless you bargain with your DM to let a spell into the witches list. Witches do not get a great spell list. Their hexes can make up for that a bit, but still.
I don't really like the specialized spell lists because they make it harder to use 3rd party spells with the class. The ability to make use of all of my 3.5 stuff is one of the reasons I use pathfinder over 3.5.
Using 3.5 material requires that you bargain with your dm anyway, unless they are letting in everything whole sale. Assuming you follow some sort of conversion process, its reasonable to ask a dm if a spell should be in a specialized list. Just find a comparable spell in the list and ask that it be included. I think specialized lists are neccessary to give casting classes a different feel, otherwise you just end up with another cleric or wizard in different pajamas. I also think the reason both the summoner and the witch have specialized lists is because of the feedback we gave on the oracle. If you try to do something new with the same spell list it may not work out. If you tailor it to what you are trying to do you are more likely to have a successful class.
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The first thing I noticed about Witches when trying to build one is that they have no umlimited/high-uses-per-day attack option, unlike all the other full casters. The only offensive cantrip they get is daze, which is so limited that it's not a viable backup attack, and they get no school/bloodline/domain abilities. That means they're back to the 3.5 "better bring a crossbow" paradigm. Which is lame. I realize they're not intended to be primary nukers, but it wouldn't kill the class to give them acid splash.Well they do have their hexes which they can use when they run out of spells. Well I would give them ray of frost not acid splash
I think Ray of Frost is a good idea as well. Fits the theme.
Well they do have their hexes which they can use when they run out of spells. Well I would give them ray of frost not acid splash
Depending on the hex, a low level witch (1-3) can still end up using their hexes and being left with nothing else to do because a target cannot be effect more than once by a hex.
I think adding ray of frost is a good option. It also matches up with the cold/weather effect spells they already get.
Using 3.5 material requires that you bargain with your dm anyway, unless they are letting in everything whole sale. Assuming you follow some sort of conversion process, its reasonable to ask a dm if a spell should be in a specialized list. Just find a comparable spell in the list and ask that it be included. I think specialized lists are neccessary to give casting classes a different feel, otherwise you just end up with another cleric or wizard in different pajamas. I also think the reason both the summoner and the witch have specialized lists is because of the feedback we gave on the oracle. If you try to do something new with the same spell list it may not work out. If you tailor it to what you are trying to do you are more likely to have a successful class.
Jason has commented that he wants to include a sidebar explaining the theme of the summoner and witch spell lists.
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Lore wise in that what you are saying fits the concept of a witch better I completely agree. Game balance I am not so sure it would be balanced.The thing is, I believe it can be achieved, it's just a matter of finding the right angle to work it and then following through. As I mentioned, some of the hexes in my opinion should be class features separated from the ability. More combat oriented abilities should be found, but also more abilities related to traditional portrayals in both history, movies, and fantasy fiction. I agree about baneful polymorph needing to be added.
Oh not saying it couldn't be, just saying I am not sure and likely it would be hard. But i do agree it would be very fitting if it was done and balanced.
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Liked the idea and the class over all, but does the Summoner seem way more powerful than the Witch?
Loved that the familiar was the spellbook. But think the familiar needs to be more special or sturdier? I keep seeing a witch chasing her flaming cat after a fireball hits the party.or possibly finding a new one after every major battle at higher levels. Maybe somewhere they get improved familiar for free or the bonuses are better than a normal familiar.
Hexes great idea as well, but some need more than one witch or hag to use. How many people would take vision at the table. It is great for an NPC but how many players would take it. It doesn't offer more than a possible look into the future up to one year. I think it should offer a AC and or Iniative bonus.
Too me I think the witch just needs something more just can think of something yet.
Can I submit a couple of nitpicks? On the durations of the Hexes, either use 24 hours or 1 day. The use of both can be confusing to me I don't know about anyone else. Also, can we have the basic stats for the familiar like in the Druid write up in the Core book? I looked and couldn't find stats on a Fox. Anyone else know where to find that?
Just my 2 cp. I am still digesting the write up.
EDIT: I am not enamored of the requirement for a Coven to have a Hag in attendance either.
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Can I submit a couple of nitpicks? On the durations of the Hexes, either use 24 hours or 1 day. The use of both can be confusing to me I don't know about anyone else. Also, can we have the basic stats for the familiar like in the Druid write up in the Core book? I looked and couldn't find stats on a Fox. Anyone else know where to find that?
Just my 2 cp. I am still digesting the write up.
EDIT: I am not enamored of the requirement for a Coven to have a Hag in attendance either.
Agreed on your first nitpick, but you don't actually *need* to have a hag in a coven -- if you do, you've access to all the Coven spells as per the Bestiary (if you don't, you're limited by the lowest level Witch in what spells you can cast).
I'm kind of wondering, if no one had ever seen hags or how hag covens work before, and the class ability was how it was without mentioning hags, and then hags and the coven mechanic associated with them was introduced (i.e. you have an established baseline, then you have a monster that is better at it than the established baseline), would anyone think of this as a problem?
Its not that witches are "bad" at covens, its that hags really excel at boosting lesser members of the coven. At least that's my take.
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I'm kind of wondering, if no one had ever seen hags or how hag covens work before, and the class ability was how it was without mentioning hags, and then hags and the coven mechanic associated with them was introduced (i.e. you have an established baseline, then you have a monster that is better at it than the established baseline), would anyone think of this as a problem?
Its not that witches are "bad" at covens, its that hags really excel at boosting lesser members of the coven. At least that's my take.
+1. And, I see great adventure and story potential in a coven of "apprentice" witches led by a horrific hag.
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+1. And, I see great adventure and story potential in a coven of "apprentice" witches led by a horrific hag.I'm kind of wondering, if no one had ever seen hags or how hag covens work before, and the class ability was how it was without mentioning hags, and then hags and the coven mechanic associated with them was introduced (i.e. you have an established baseline, then you have a monster that is better at it than the established baseline), would anyone think of this as a problem?
Its not that witches are "bad" at covens, its that hags really excel at boosting lesser members of the coven. At least that's my take.
Very true, I see that as well, and that's why I suggest making something analog to the Hag that is non-evil, rather than stripping out the Hag part of the Hex.
Coven is a great starting place for alot of adventures, as are many many social groups. I kept turning this idea over and over in my mind and thier are some seriously cool things you could do here.
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my thoughts on some of the witch's hexes:
blight. why. for flavor its nice? you can kill a 10 ft. square patch of land. but what's its use in game? if the energy buffed the witch with temporary hit points or a stat boost or something, i could see it being useful.
healing hex. cure light wounds that doesn't scale up well is kinda nerfy. make it go up every 4 levels to become a cmw , csw, ccw. and make the major hex a mass clw, that scales to mass cmw, etc. but keep the 1/day for benefactors.
major hex: vision. seems like a completely flavor hex. you could as well describe that the character has a dream power that can predict the future, hazily. with no in game benefit. if its going to be a major hex, and comparable to one of the other major hexes that he/she would be giving up to take, it should have a more solid benefit.
hag-related-hexes.
the coven hex feels more like it should be a class ability above 5th level than a hex. the same with brew potion or fly at some point. maybe the witch gets to choose among the three. it breaks the feel of the hexes. the rest are supernatural actions that the witch can use in combat. cauldron, coven, fly. should be a choice at 5th, 10th level etc. so as not to de-power a witch's arsenal of hexes, and more to flesh out what kind of which he/she is.
( also, coven. for a player class. seems largely useless. for an uncommon class. the likelyhood of multiple witches in one group. or multiple witches working together WITH a hag in a game group... seems an uncommon factor to build a feature upon. )
timed hexes...
Tongues...
Disguise Self...
usable for N hours / minutes per level...
but then the witch can just re-hex herself. seems kind of pointless to include the time limit.
ps. unrelated to the hexes.
but i feel like the witch's familiars should do more than just grant a bonus spell list or the standard familiar benefits to the witch. what if they were aligned to certain hexes, increasing the DC of ... a misfortune hex when you have a Toad familiar, etc.
+1. And, I see great adventure and story potential in a coven of "apprentice" witches led by a horrific hag.
Very true, I see that as well, and that's why I suggest making something analog to the Hag that is non-evil, rather than stripping out the Hag part of the Hex.
Coven is a great starting place for alot of adventures, as are many many social groups. I kept turning this idea over and over in my mind and thier are some seriously cool things you could do here.
A "crone" of somekind? There are many stories and legends of heroes seeking out a ancient wise woman to learn what destiny holds for him or what the correct method for undoing some creature or curse is.
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A "crone" of somekind? There are many stories and legends of heroes seeking out a ancient wise woman to learn what destiny holds for him or what the correct method for undoing some creature or curse is.+1. And, I see great adventure and story potential in a coven of "apprentice" witches led by a horrific hag.Very true, I see that as well, and that's why I suggest making something analog to the Hag that is non-evil, rather than stripping out the Hag part of the Hex.
Coven is a great starting place for alot of adventures, as are many many social groups. I kept turning this idea over and over in my mind and thier are some seriously cool things you could do here.
Crone was exactly what I suggested. Basicly a non-evil Hag. I say non evil so they still can be opponents and be usful beastary entries for GMs, but also be useful as allies, contacts, cohorts, ect.
I wouldn't really make them diameticly opposite the other Hags, but there should be created thematically. Frost Crone, Forest Crone...
Maybe I just need to write the creature up and post it and see what people think of it?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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my thoughts on some of the witch's hexes:
blight. why. for flavor its nice? you can kill a 10 ft. square patch of land. but what's its use in game? if the energy buffed the witch with temporary hit points or a stat boost or something, i could see it being useful.
Just because it doesn't have a combat use doesn't mean it doesn't have a use in game. Also, the area of effect is 10' radius per witch level. So a 10th level witch affects an area of 100' radius circle. A low level witch can use blight to blackmail a farmer - if he doesn't pay her, his fields are cursed and he goes into economic ruin. Once he's paid up, the witch can simply blight the next farmer's field, and pull the same scam, and even shift the blame, saying that the 2nd farmer's field is blighted because of the first farmer.
A high level witch can do the same thing to an entire town.
my thoughts on some of the witch's hexes:
blight. why. for flavor its nice? you can kill a 10 ft. square patch of land. but what's its use in game? if the energy buffed the witch with temporary hit points or a stat boost or something, i could see it being useful.
Just because it doesn't have a combat use doesn't mean it doesn't have a use in game. Also, the area of effect is 10' radius per witch level. So a 10th level witch affects an area of 100' radius circle. A low level witch can use blight to blackmail a farmer - if he doesn't pay her, his fields are cursed and he goes into economic ruin. Once he's paid up, the witch can simply blight the next farmer's field, and pull the same scam, and even shift the blame, saying that the 2nd farmer's field is blighted because of the first farmer.
A high level witch can do the same thing to an entire town.
I played a spirit shaman who did the exact opposite with Plant Growth.
Still, the ability feels more like an NPC attack than a player attack. Your PCs are going to feel the damage pretty bad, but I just don't see it as being so effective against a group of monsters.
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my thoughts on some of the witch's hexes:
blight. why. for flavor its nice? you can kill a 10 ft. square patch of land. but what's its use in game? if the energy buffed the witch with temporary hit points or a stat boost or something, i could see it being useful.
Just because it doesn't have a combat use doesn't mean it doesn't have a use in game. Also, the area of effect is 10' radius per witch level. So a 10th level witch affects an area of 100' radius circle. A low level witch can use blight to blackmail a farmer - if he doesn't pay her, his fields are cursed and he goes into economic ruin. Once he's paid up, the witch can simply blight the next farmer's field, and pull the same scam, and even shift the blame, saying that the 2nd farmer's field is blighted because of the first farmer.
A high level witch can do the same thing to an entire town.
I played a spirit shaman who did the exact opposite with Plant Growth.
Still, the ability feels more like an NPC attack than a player attack. Your PCs are going to feel the damage pretty bad, but I just don't see it as being so effective against a group of monsters.
Keep in mind blight also means a creature dies in two weeks, even if they escape.
This class is love at first sight for me. I'm so happy there's finally going to be a class that doesn't follow the arcane/divine magic line that I've always felt was contrived.
Obviously Gryphon Gold has never played Arcana Evolved...