I know it's a play test, but they're out so initial discussion has to be gut reactions.
And first thing I see it seems that a summoners pet is looking like the largest source of melee damage I've seen based on insane strength and assuming the summoner equips his pet as easily as any barbarian or fighter can equip themselves.
As I said, gut reaction is all it is, but I think I'd rather play an Eidolon than a barbarian, and that scares me a bit.
Otherwise, I like the idea, and hopefully with some testing I'll see where he fits in the party.
My initial reaction (besides "Oooooh, shiny"), was that this was what I always wanted from those classes that had "X shape" be it wild, or any other form-altering power. I always found it annoying that as a druid that focused on wild shape, you were eventually forced to use your next tier of wild shape to survive, regardless of how fond (personally) you were of a particular wild shape.
This alleviates my concern, allowing the form to be universally applicable through all the levels, AND combines several ideas that I've loved since I saw them. One is that of a companion that stands with you a'la druid, and that of an eventual merge a'la the Constructor.
Thumbs up on my initial impression of the summoner.
As an Antagonist...
Offhand, there's the easily recognizable mark (Is that the mark that would be used if Arcane Mark were to be used?) which may serve as a marker, but if the class has not been encountered before, it may lead to an incorrect assumption of the assumed Sorceror/Wizard having made a pact with a being of the far-flung planes (depending on the appearance of the Eidolon). If using hit-and-run tactics, a solo Summoner may serve as a brief confusion, but as a long-term Antagonist... Hmm..
Would it be possible to have the Eidolon tainted (or possessed) by a malignant force, and thereby have it echo communications from whichever entities to the summoner? That'd be a heck of an Antagonist.
Either way, this was based on a cursory glance, but as far as the "uncommon" goes, I love it.
Yeah, I thought it looked a little tough too...maybe there is some detail I missed on how it worked, or something...
The only concern that jumps out at me with the current Eidolons is their massive, massive AC. It's dirt easy to make an unhittable Eidolon. Their offense is respectable, but they're not going to match a dedicated fighter or paladin, so that's not as much of a concern to me.
I'm inclined to agree.
Consider the abuse that could be applied to multiple tentacles and pounce. (to say nothing of repeated improved damage (tentacles))
(Or alternatively weilding a magic wpn in each one with wpn training.)
Yep, I'll be playing a level 12 Summoner in a PbP soon, so I'll be able to provide first-hand info on mid-level play. Hopefully get in a fight or two before the end of the playtest, at the least.
Of course, this is why I need playtest data.
And that's why I love pathfinder, think I have a player that would love to try this class. In the mean time I'm playing with building a level 15 Eidolon, and I'm already seeing what you mean with the points. Still feeling bad for my friend's barbarian though.
I think folks need to take a look at what you can actually do with your evolution points at a given level. They do not get out of hand too quickly...
I suspect you're going to have to either limit/nerf tentacles or clarify wording about how modifiers to natural attacks apply to everyone of them or only a few. (Or make them 2 pts)
Eg. tail slap,claws and pincers have pre-req evolutions, but tenatacles don't so things like reach, push, pull, energy attacks(!), improved attack damage, and wpn focus suddenly become very nasty when you've got a ton of them.
(Eg lvl 5 quad eilodon, 8 evolution pts.)
4 tenatcles, energy attack, imp att dam*2,
BAB +5, str 16, Wpn focus (tentacle),
That's 4 attacks at +4 for 1d8+1d6(energy)+ 1(str)
(Unless Augment summoning also applies to the Eilodon? (presumably it shouldn't, but what about the class ability?)
By the way, I'd just like to add that the Summoner class almost completely obsoletes the Alienist prestige class, in a good way. You get to add oodles of pseudonatural tentacles to your big bad summon as a class feature!
Ok quick mock up at level 15 since that's level of current campaign.
Biped Eidolon Lvl 15
20 EV points
2 Armor
2 Weapon
6 Str
3 Large
4 Huge
1 Bite
2 Grab(Bite)
Would make him a quadruped with arms and pounce to be a bit more efective, but I'm trying to make a pet barbarian, sadly one point short of DR.
47 str = 16 base + 6lvl + 6ev + 8l + 8h +3in
21 Higher than player's raging Barbarian at 26
21 con = 13 base + 4l +4h
Only 1 higher
And 2 less base attack than his Barbarian
One less feat and about 10% or so fewer hit points.
Not computing AC, Barbar cries
No DR, and admittingly, no player of mine is walking through town with a huge beast, let alone most dungeons...sadly he's still got better damage without the size increases but their to hit perfectly evens out, and his hp takes a big hit without it.
Making assumption that summoner invest most of money on attack gear for pet and ac for self, so he should end up with just as weaponry as barbar.
So things I'd like to see in changes from more reading.
Types to bonuses to discourage equipment stacking on top is one thing. Things like the size changes being activated abilities with durations, on top of making them actually be able to follow anywhere, it would give a bit more balance to the crazy power increase if it only lasted 20 minutes a few times a day.
Point buy stats for eidolons, as they are now they don't scale with different ability score generation rules, but not really necessary for core rules.
Personally, I'd like to see less evolution points and multiple different pets. One pet at a time, people can't stack quite so many abilities to make hideous monsters, and encourages people to make versatile diverse monsters.
Oh, and I have been kind of intentionally ignoring the fact that while comparing an Eidolon to a PC, this is just supposed to be a pet of a full caster with a 3/4 speed base attack.
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Ok quick mock up at level 15 since that's level of current campaign.
Biped Eidolon Lvl 15
20 EV points
2 Armor
2 Weapon
6 Str
3 Large
4 Huge
1 Bite
2 Grab(Bite)
Would make him a quadruped with arms and pounce to be a bit more efective, but I'm trying to make a pet barbarian, sadly one point short of DR.47 str = 16 base + 6lvl + 6ev + 8l + 8h +3in
21 Higher than player's raging Barbarian at 2621 con = 13 base + 4l +4h
Only 1 higherAnd 2 less base attack than his Barbarian
One less feat and about 10% or so fewer hit points.
Not computing AC, Barbar criesNo DR, and admittingly, no player of mine is walking through town with a huge beast, let alone most dungeons...sadly he's still got better damage without the size increases but their to hit perfectly evens out, and his hp takes a big hit without it.
Making assumption that summoner invest most of money on attack gear for pet and ac for self, so he should end up with just as weaponry as barbar.
So things I'd like to see in changes from more reading.
Types to bonuses to discourage equipment stacking on top is one thing. Things like the size changes being activated abilities with durations, on top of making them actually be able to follow anywhere, it would give a bit more balance to the crazy power increase if it only lasted 20 minutes a few times a day.
Point buy stats for eidolons, as they are now they don't scale with different ability score generation rules, but not really necessary for core rules.
Personally, I'd like to see less evolution points and multiple different pets. One pet at a time, people can't stack quite so many abilities to make hideous monsters, and encourages people to make versatile diverse monsters.
Oh, and I have been kind of intentionally ignoring the fact that while comparing an Eidolon to a PC, this is just supposed to be a pet of a full caster with a 3/4 speed base attack.
... Full Caster?? Are you reading the same class I am?
By full caster I only mean at level 16 they have caster level 16 and can cast level 9 equivalent spells, you don't need 9 levels of spells to be a full caster. But really trying to get other people's ideas on Eidolons, haven't looked at the man behind the monster nearly as much.
It reminds of my astral construct based build from 3.5. I like it. I will be messing with it in the days too come. At first glance it looks OP, but I liked to see in action first.
It reminds of my astral construct based build from 3.5. I like it. I will be messing with it in the days too come. At first glance it looks OP, but I liked to see in action first.
Yeah, enjoyed that spell a lot as well.
Having a lot of fun with the multitude of eidolon options, with barely any tweaking it's a fully playable player class as well as a really easy way to make monsters while keeping CR in some form of check. It's just a bunch of templates rolled into one, loving it.
My gut reaction to your gut reaction...
You've jumped the gun without actually playing it yet. ;)