I tend to go for demons - they seem so much more straightforward. No complications, just pure mayhem and carnage. By contrast, I think devils are far more difficult to portray effectively. I very rarely use them, and would like to use them more - but devils seem to do a lot more "off-screen" scheming, which doesn't interest my players much. Any suggestions?
I tend to go for demons - they seem so much more straightforward. No complications, just pure mayhem and carnage. By contrast, I think devils are far more difficult to portray effectively. I very rarely use them, and would like to use them more - but devils seem to do a lot more "off-screen" scheming, which doesn't interest my players much. Any suggestions?
I tend to find role playing devils to be more fun. I also have a habit of forming sentences with two or more meanings. Devils try to negotiate your soul away. Demons try to rip it from you while you are still using it.
Devils try to negotiate your soul away. Demons try to rip it from you while you are still using it.
+1
I tend to find role playing devils to be more fun. I also have a habit of forming sentences with two or more meanings. Devils try to negotiate your soul away. Demons try to rip it from you while you are still using it.
Wow. I like your approach. That's very helpful - especially the double meanings. I hadn't thought of it that way before.
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Devils ... fools. They think that making mortals lick their heels and call them "master" is what being evil is all about.
Demons ... cretins. Rend and tear and maim and rape and kill and burn and ... are we asleep yet ?
Now, we don't want you to be our pawns. We don't want you to sell your mother and daughter into slavery. We also don't want to flay you alive or to turn your body into a pile of sentient goo.
We just want to annihilate you and eat your soul. Nothing personal, eh ?
Daemons. The Third Way (tm).
If you want to get involved with the underpinnings of a devil contract, that might be difficult to roleplay... but certainly fun. The challenge of demons is to not make them all "grr argh rape kill." I don't think either are EASY to portray, honestly, at least the more powerful ones who tend to be fairly smart.
I tend to use both where one or the other would make more sense, rather than what's easy to play. Devils where the political situation might have them interested in manipulating behind the scenes, or a villain may have made a deal with them to help fight the party; demons for where a lot of chaos and destruction is apparent (they're either attracted to it, or causing it) or summons from less careful spellcasters.
Creative Director
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Demons are much more entertaining to roleplay. In the same way the Joker's a much more interesting bad guy than, say Kingpin. And just like the Joker, demons CAN and often ARE complicated and subtle and sneaky in what they do. Particulalry glabrezus and succubui. Demons! For the win!
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Demons are much more entertaining to roleplay. In the same way the Joker's a much more interesting bad guy than, say Kingpin. And just like the Joker, demons CAN and often ARE complicated and subtle and sneaky in what they do. Particulalry glabrezus and succubui. Demons! For the win!
Do I sense another simmering rivalry in the Paizo offices similar to the seasonal Packers/Vikings brouhaha?
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I much prefer demons
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I generally have the most fun with demons, because I tend to go all out with them.
But more than demons or devils, I have the most fun with daemons/'loths largely because I had a rather large number of them in my campaigns with a massive amount of characterization and history so I could really easily get in-character with them.
Huh. I've been mostly thinking about devils lately...been turning up the heat between games by developing the hierarchy of hell in my own home setting.
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Demons are much more entertaining to roleplay. In the same way the Joker's a much more interesting bad guy than, say Kingpin. And just like the Joker, demons CAN and often ARE complicated and subtle and sneaky in what they do. Particulalry glabrezus and succubui. Demons! For the win!
I went the 4e route and added succubi to the Devil roster, given the outlook of Demons.
Now, hoe demons and devils are used is entirely based on the outlook of the GM. I have one GM who can use devils to their greatest extent; manipulative, cunning, and misdirecting.
For example:
Our characters were investigating a series of murders surrounding a courtesan. One of her clients had become obsessed with her and had summoned a devil (an erinyes) to make a deal to get the "love of his life". The erinyes showed the man how to summon demons as a mean to destroy his rivals for the courtesan's affections. When our party discovered demons were behind the killings, we geared up with demon-slaying equipment (cold iron weapons). The joke was on us when we encountered the erinyes mastermind, who summoned devils to fight us (who needed silver to be hurt more effectively).
It is all a matter of outlook and approach to your scenario.
I'm a big fan of both, but I must say that my finest fiendish roleplaying came from a devil. The devil that owned one PC's soul, specifically. He was all charm and veiled threats and promises of reward if only she'd step off the path of goodness and embraced her inner wickedness. And then she died. And her soul slipped out of Hell's grasp when the PCs resurrected her. And his mask came off...
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I went the 4e route and added succubi to the Devil roster, given the outlook of Demons.
Succubi are where they belong. Would it make more sense for them to be devils? Maybe (I'm actually not agreeing), but they're demons! They don't give a damn about your pitiful mortal notions of right or wrong - except when they can exploit them to do more mayhem, of course!
And, as I said: Succubi make sense as demons! They still want to cause mayhem, destruction, suffering, death. Just because they're not HULK SMASH stupid and evil doesn't mean they can't be demons. In fact, most demons are quite smart. They're not Int 0 attack enemies. Not in Pathfinder.
Succubi have a different MO than, say, a Hezrou, but the results go in the same direction.
Succubi are subtle creatures. They pretend to be your friend (or your lover). They make you to give in to your passions and base urgings. Forget your honour, forget your conscience. Do this for me, love! Before long, brother is turned against brother, father against son, kings descend into madness and the people rise up against this evil tyrant, and the result is pain, death, humiliation, the end of honour, and so on.
Always remember: Demons and devils are different in that they have different goals (devils want corruption, demons destruction), but they're not limited to one narrow way of behaviour to reach their goals. Not in Pathfinder.
Our characters were investigating a series of murders surrounding a courtesan. One of her clients had become obsessed with her and had summoned a devil (an erinyes) to make a deal to get the "love of his life". The erinyes showed the man how to summon demons as a mean to destroy his rivals for the courtesan's affections. When our party discovered demons were behind the killings, we geared up with demon-slaying equipment (cold iron weapons). The joke was on us when we encountered the erinyes mastermind, who summoned devils to fight us (who needed silver to be hurt more effectively).It is all a matter of outlook and approach to your scenario.
This just shows that devils and demons aren't as clear cut as one would think. The devil in question furthers demonic goals - and helps people summon hell's arch-rivals! They still probably furthered their own hellish goals with the whole stunt, and it goes probably beyond getting a mere advantage in a fight.
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I'm not a fan at all of trying to put demons and devils into boxes that they can never stray, first of all. That's far too limiting. Devils can certainly have violent thugs, and demons can certainly have seductive tricksters.
The difference between demons and devils in Pathfinder is a bit more subtle than "alignment slavery."
Demons want to destroy. Be it destroy the buildings you live in, destroy the lands you farm, destroy the body you use to survive, destroy your relationships with your friends and allies, destroy your faith in your god, and so on. They themselves rise from destructive mortal sins like wrath, lust, and envy, after all, and personify those sins. They can certainly use subtlety and manipulation if they need to or are built for it (like the succubus or even the glabrezu), and in cases where the demon wants to destroy intangible things like your love for your spouse or devotion to your children, they more or less HAVE to assume such sneaky roles.
Devils, on the other hand, do not want to destroy. They want to use mortals as tools and manipulate them, on one level to trick mortals into working evil upon the living world and spreading the influence of the infernal, but on a more important level they think of mortals as "raw materials" for Hell. They want non-evil souls to torment, and they want evil souls to warp and transform into new devils. A devil doesn't gain much by destroying your home or your body or your love for your spouse, because it could have USED the things it destroyed, after all. Destruction is a waste of resources to a devil. That said, a devil can certainly wage destructive wars upon elements it can probably never use, such as faithful paladins or angels or whatever, especially if it can trick mortals into waging these wars for them.
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Random thoughts on ways to use a succubus in-story;
When a succubus is summoned to the material plane by planar binding or similar effects that allow bartering for services, a succubus always adds to whatever contract is offered a period of ‘liberty’ for the fiend, to walk the material plane and wreak their own special brand of havoc.
Using detect thoughts, the Succubus enhances its own ability to gather information, learning in a surprisingly short time many sordid details about the local communities affairs of the heart. The primary targets are locals who are prominently good, lawful and / or in positions of religious or secular authority, and the succubus uses its shapeshifting, charm and detect thoughts abilities to sow distrust and discord that can last for years after its departure to the Abyss.
Example: A brave adventuring group has become local heroes, after rescuing a dozen of the local youth from a slaving gang or evil cult or similar danger. The most appropriate hero (preferably a paladin, noble knight or acolyte to the dominant temple) is seduced by the succubus, preferably in a guise that will lead to further scandal, and then the succubus in turn, often in a single frenzied night of activity, seduces as many of the rescued maidens as possible, in the guise of the local hero, telling them how he was so impressed with how they held up under duress and helped provide comfort and moral support to their fellow captives, and how he wants to take them away and marry them. A night of passion ensues, and the most skillful succubi don’t even need to resort to charm person to back up their seductions! Using the purloined essence of the local hero, the succubi not only seduces the local maidens, but also impregnates them with a child that is tied by blood to both the hero and the maiden, but also has the hidden taint of the fiend (gaining the full benefits of the half-fiend template, but not until the child reaches sexual maturity at puberty). The day after the succubus enacts her scheme, the local hero is beset by young maidens, each believing themselves to be his chosen bride, and all carrying children that will be born to resemble this unsuspecting donor! The local hero might also discover that the amorous maiden whom *he* recalls 'visiting him in the night,' recalls nothing of their night of passion and wants nothing to do with his advances.
Other locals in the community might find the girl of their dreams suddenly receptive to their advances, and discover in the harsh light of day that the girl wants nothing to do with them. These locals will be those the succubus has determined to be the most likely to react violently to such ‘betrayals’ by the objects of their desire, as the frustrated young men cannot believe that the young woman who was so passionate last night now is ignoring him and pretending that 'it never happened.'
Still others might be approached by an object of admiration and told that they’ve always felt the same way, but been unable to reciprocate because their jealous husband / abusive father / tyrannical boss / incestuous brother / etc. is cruel and possessive and prevents them from doing so, and if only some gallant hero could save them from this awful prison... The succubus will likely be long-gone when the frustrated young man acts on this information, knifing some young woman’s prince charming / beloved sibling / kindly old mentor / doting father, to ‘rescue her from the tyrant.’ And so the ends of chaos are served as families are torn apart, hearts broken and lives shattered.
Unique succubi powers
Charming Scion – any half-fiendish child that the succubus engenders within a mortal host gains charm person as a spell-like ability usable once / day. Until the half-fiend reaches puberty, it can only cast this spell (and does so instinctively, even as an infant) on it’s own mother.
Infestation – The succubi can seduce any humanoid creature of any gender and cause it to give birth in 6 months to a Dretch, which tears it’s way free of the ‘mothers’ body from within (only being freed when the host reaches 0 or less hit points, and generally resulting in the gruesome death of the ‘mother’). For each month of the hosting, the host takes 1 pt of Constitution drain, as the fledgling Dretch consumes it from within. A male host can carry an infestation, but suffers 2 pts of Constitution drain for each month, and if a host of either gender dies (reaches 0 Con) before the 6 months are up, the Dretch remains within the corpse of it’s parent, devouring internal organs for the remainder of the gestation time, before bursting forth. Dretch spawned in this way are treated as (native) outsiders, but are otherwise identical to normal Dretches.
Nice stuff Set!
That would be a nice bit to see featured in product somewhere.
If you want a plot that will work. A dark future that is going to come about, be it this year, next decade, or a thousand years from now. A soul doomed to corruption, madness, or (at best) death. A force with the drive, the power, and arguably the right to bring ruin upon the world and resurrect it into a grim vision of inhuman majesty and endless potential: you want devils. They're immortal evil with memories, they've been at work manipulating the planes to suit them for eons upon eons. They're weakest servants might appear little more than brawlers and gestapo-like sadists but even they are embodiments of absolute active unholiness, and greater devils are masterminds with ages of plots and schemes few lone mortal minds will ever know, while their rulers are closer to gods than aggrandized monsters. They are the ship in Event Horizon, the corruption in Prince of Darkness, Barlowe from Salem's Lot, Pacino in Devil's Advocate, the machines from the Matrix, Damion from the Omen, the cultists from Conan, the ringwraiths from Lord of the Rings, the legions of Wayne Barlowe's <i>God's Demon</i> or Inferno illustrations - all wildly different, but all driven to conquests beyond themselves. They can be legion and unrelenting, they can be they can be subtle and scheming in ways mortals will never learn in a single life. But most deadly, they are unified, driven, merciless, and patient. Only the vastness of planes and worlds and the fearful reactionary reprisals of other gods keep them from taking that which their lords desire. And as open war among the planes and upon mortal worlds has proven untenable, their corruption comes in myriad ways - many cultivated and expected, but the most effective striking from undefended directions - and best when openly entreated by the same mortals who they would ruin. The lords of Hell have no reason to rush their inevitable domination: they have seen eons and will see eons more, and ever the ranks of Hell swell, ever their intention remains the same, and ever the archfiends spread their corruption - by corruption, by fanaticism, and by unrelenting force.
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Charles's brings up an interesting notion in my mind.
Demons are overwhelming emotion fueled by evil.
Devils are overwhelming logic fueled by evil.
Following this, when you roleplay a demon or devil, get all logical with the devils (like an evil vulcan or a messageboard poster who uses the tactic of point-by-point rebuttals of an argument to prove his point), and all emotional with demons (like an evil klingon or a messageboard poster who violently and passionately clings to his opinions without bothering to look at other posts).
Not that I'm saying messageboards are like Hell and the Abyss. At least, I don't THINK that's what I'm saying. :-P
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Charles's brings up an interesting notion in my mind.
Demons are overwhelming emotion fueled by evil.
Devils are overwhelming logic fueled by evil.
Following this, when you roleplay a demon or devil, get all logical with the devils (like an evil vulcan or a messageboard poster who uses the tactic of point-by-point rebuttals of an argument to prove his point), and all emotional with demons (like an evil klingon or a messageboard poster who violently and passionately clings to his opinions without bothering to look at other posts).
Not that I'm saying messageboards are like Hell and the Abyss. At least, I don't THINK that's what I'm saying. :-P
LoL.
So does that make the Mods Angels, Azatas or Agathons?
Or worse still are they Daemons?
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I prefer demons over devils. Demons can be portrayed as killing machines and for whatever reason they seem to stick around in my group's mind more easily. Everyone becomes a bit more serious when a vrock gates in. The fighter and paladin are a bit more edgy facing a balor. The succubus and glabrezu put devils to shame in games of guile, desire and ego. I think they just have a better overall fit.
Most of the devils seem like they are jailers or punishers. Devils are supposed to negotiate your soul away but who would you rather talk to? A succubus who plays up your ego and is always swooning over you and telling you how WONDERFUL you really are and how your friends just can't see your greatness. What about the glabrezu who whispers into your ear that ultimate power will be yours and how with that power you can make the world right, ala Emperor Palpatine type conversations. Demons are surprisingly verastile which kinda makes sense due to their chaotic nature. They tend to be hard to pigeon hole.
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Charles's brings up an interesting notion in my mind.
Demons are overwhelming emotion fueled by evil.
Devils are overwhelming logic fueled by evil.
Following this, when you roleplay a demon or devil, get all logical with the devils (like an evil vulcan or a messageboard poster who uses the tactic of point-by-point rebuttals of an argument to prove his point), and all emotional with demons (like an evil klingon or a messageboard poster who violently and passionately clings to his opinions without bothering to look at other posts).
Not that I'm saying messageboards are like Hell and the Abyss. At least, I don't THINK that's what I'm saying. :-P
LoL.
So does that make the Mods Angels, Azatas or Agathons?
Or worse still are they Daemons?
Mods are, of course, deities. Some of them can be devils or demons (like Asmodeus or Lamashtu), but at that point they transcend petty demonic and devilish squabbles and have their own deal.
The trouble I have with both demons and devils, or at least their portrayal, is threefold:
1. Omniscience
To explain, every demon and devil you run into seems to have Santa Claus's magic snowglobe and the complete Naughty and Nice lists with annotations. It's not just creepy, it's unbelievable. Why on earth would a devil bother to dicker for the price of someone's soul if they already knew beforehand exactly how much they'd be willing to sell it for?
I realize much of this has to do with bad writing and bad DMing, but it really needs pointing out.
2. Omnipotence
Demons and devils never seem to have any limitations, or even a budget. Again, a writing and dming problem, but they become far more interesting if there are things they can't do. And that includes occasionally being incompetent.
It makes a far more entertaining universe if the devil can still be outwitted by the occasional farmer's wife, or if there are limitations which a clever devil has to work around.
3. Omnimalevolence
This is probably my biggest pet peeve, but if you have demons and devils made out of pure evil with extra evil sauce and nothing else, it makes them one-dimensional. It's also poor theology in many cases.
According to some old French monk whose name I'm forgetting, there are some demons and devils who could possibly be saved, notably the incubi and succubi who were the souls of infants who'd suffered crib death and stolen by Lilith the child stealer. They and "The Lutins" (which was the title of his essay) could be saved, if you just went out and preached at them enough. And to get into less esoteric theology, it's right there in the Quran that Mohammed went and converted a whole tribe of the djinn, who are now known as the "righteous djinn." Admittedly these are djinn, but when you've got stats for the "shaitan" and that's just Arabic for "Satan" it starts to beg the question. And that doesn't even get into the whole business with the Peris in the Revolt of Heaven.
Admittedly, this may be a matter of personal flavor but if you've got someone who was enough of an embodiment of sluttiness and lust in mortal life that they became a succubus in the afterlife, and they're then sent back to the mortal world to continue to ply their trade, do they still have anything approaching free will? Even personal tastes? And if they have even a shred of free will, can they be seduced off the unrighteous path?
If they can't, it cuts off all manner of stories and makes the world far more boring.
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3. Omnimalevolence
This is probably my biggest pet peeve, but if you have demons and devils made out of pure evil with extra evil sauce and nothing else, it makes them one-dimensional. It's also poor theology in many cases.
I think the game has tried to get around some of the 'evil for the sake of being evil' by assigning some sort of value to the souls they are amassing. They aren't just tempting people into falling for the sheer wickedness of it (although some might be), they've got very mercenary reasons to do so, whether because they barter with those souls (devils, mostly), or consume them (daemons), or in some other way gain power from the addition of new souls to their realms.
But yeah, if the game has the concept of a 'fallen angel,' then it has to follow that an [evil] fiend can also be redeemed, although I'd expect the process to be even more ridiculously rare than an angel falling, since an angel falling doesn't have to worry nearly so much about other angels killing him before he gets the chance (which is still a possibility, some ultra-uptight angelic sort imprisoning those he suspects of entertaining fallen ideology, and, in the process of setting himself up as Purity Police and Judge, Jury & Executioner of his fellow angels, fails to notice that he's halfway down that road paved with good intentions himself!) but not nearly as likely as a demon is to get eated by other demons when he starts thinking of turning over a new leaf...
To be effective as a story, it needs to be a one-time event. Once is epic and powerful and all that, and even more so if the redemption ends up failing, because of outside interference, instead of failure on the part of the redemption-seeker (such as refusal to accept it on the part of the forces of good, who accept the 'party line' of 'once a demon, always a demon' and react with hissed denials and outrage if the counterpoint of an angel falling is brought up in their presence.) When a second demon starts sniffing around the redemption storyline, it's gone too far.
That way lies Buffy season six, and no good can come of that. :)
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I think demons and devils etc should be more individual. Some are more evil than others, especially the more chaotic demons. I could see some of them enjoying living on the plane with mortals. Sure they break stuff, do what they want, don't care who they hurt. But some i bet like living their a lot more than Hell or the Abyss and would happily stay or even fight to protect it from other outsiders.
I could see some teaming up with the hero's to stop a gate to hell form opening and ruining their playground. Sure they are doing it for selfish reasons and deep down they are still evil but that doesn't mean they are evil 24/7 and interested in the greater evil.
I could also see some redeming but not many. More likely I would see them just deciding to keep a low profile and doing only minor evil, so those pesky adventures don't come kill them. Then in time for them to just start enjoy living that way. Sure they would likely still be considering bad people but evil? More selfish and just caring about themselves than real evil. You know like some people in RL.
Also I never played Demons and Devils as having unlimited resources and as far as souls go. I could see them willing to over pay, since lots of them want them. It is about supply and demand. So I could easily see some willing to give up even to souls already going to hell or where ever. Just cause it goes their doesn't mean they get it, in fact are odds they won't so I could see them locking in souls before they get to the afterlife. Especially in souls that is unlikely to go their on their own.
The trouble I have with both demons and devils, or at least their portrayal, is threefold:
1. Omniscience
2. Omnipotence
3. Omnimalevolence
Huh, I guess in my gaming days, I feel like I've seen 3 but not 1 and 2. And I agree with your take that in the Semitic traditions, the lines between evil spirits and redemption get fuzzy at points, and hence interesting. Even the lines between "species" get fuzzy, particularly between demons and djinn.
Gish are easiest of all to portray.
But the hardest to crunch.
1. Omniscience
Most stories I have read have this information coming from the fact that the target in question has been watched for a while. If they have knowledge of his good acts, that he did out of selflessness then it may be a good indicator of how good he is.
2. Omnipotence
I have not seen this one either, but the way I do it is demon/devil one has a commoner who is a good man in a bad situation. He needs gold to save his family after a drought or some other bad situation. Somewhere else in the world you have a wealthy noble. The noble wants a particular female, but her heart belongs to another. Normally the entity will try to bargain for the soul, but if the noble is clearly wicked then why bother. He is probably going to the Abyss of Nine Hells anyway. What you do is get the noble to give you money to get rid of the opposing suitor. You don't necessarily have to appear in your true form to do this. You take the money and give it to the commoner for his soul. You may then later blackmail the noble or make him work for you in some other way possibly gaining two souls. How did the devil/demon know about the noble. Maybe another fellow outsider was already working him, and the two make a deal. There is no rule that says they have to work alone.
3. Omnimalevolence
I think that most enjoy what they do, and are somewhat selfish which is how they came into the situation in the first place. If you took someone who has the ability to seduce almost anyone, has no problems doing it, and increase their power to do so,assuming they used to be mortals), by their logic they have no reason to give it up.
Now if the person slipped into doing it, and was corrupted to the point they became a demon/devil after they died, they may be able to be redeemed. I would require the players to find out about the demon's(assuming we are using succubi) mortal life to see if they think they have a shot at doing so. I dont think all demons/devils should be beyond redemption, but I think it should be really hard to do so, even for those that have a thread of decency hidden somewhere within them.
Personally, I like the portrayal of Devils and Demons in Golarion.
Devils are far more rational than Demons usually, but not always more subtle. Not much subtle about the Asmodean Church. But Devils seem to know more just how far they can push people. Demons usually lack that and it interferes with long term planning. While Demons can be sublte and devious, they still often feel hurried to me. A Demon might bring down a family, a Devil plots to bring down a nation.
A good example of the difference is Cheliax and the World Wound.
A real worlf example to me is:
Demons are Caligula.
Devils are Julius Caesar.-Weylin
I personaly think Devils can be lots of fun. They can be most pleasantly two faced! Promise you your grandest desires, be pleasant and understanding as they worm thier way into your confidence. Even fulfill your 'Contracts' in exchange for that small inconcequintial thing you call a soul. "Your hardly using it as it is!"
I love Dudley Moore in the original Bedazzled.(movie)
Always think of them as goal oriented. Let your sneakiness out.
Remember, The thing they grant in exchange for that 'contract' is easily twisted like a wish gone wrong.
Serves you right for dealing with Devils!
Do you think that the Rulers of Cheliax thought they were going to be tied to Asmodias as tightly as they are now. They probably thought they were too smart to get cought in that trap.
Demons are easier. Their goals more base. They can easily be as sneaky though.
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I like demons more on an individual level. Devils have the better complete grouping.
A demon is a powerful, manipulative enemy. But it can be beaten. Even an entire army can be beaten, maybe not by you or your army, but in theory at least it can be done.
Devils on the other hand, can't be beaten, because they don't mass armies and march against you, they mass somebody else's. Exposing the adviser to the king as a devil just means that a different devil takes his place next weak.
And once they get their ideals in place they don't even need the adviser anymore, the king will act in Hell's interest without Hell having to lift a finger, probably while thinking that he's doing the best thing for his nation.
It won't ever go away either. If tomorrow you somehow slaughtered every Devil in the multiverse, Hell will keep tempting souls, because the people who have it in them to do the things necessary to stamp out an idea are the first ones to be corrupted by Hell's ideals.
And then there's me. Who the hell knows what I am. :D