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So I have a player in my game who is a sorcerer 4/Oracle 2 and has gone with the flame foci and the lame curse. By my reading of the oracle, the curse and the revelations he already has are based off of total level (only the saves seem to be based off of oracle level). So an he has immunity to fatigue and if he has fire breath he deals 6d4 with a save of (+3 Cha) 14. Just wanted to make sure that was intentional.
I do think that it is good though because it makes an oracle decent when multiclassed the curse especially can't be based off of Oracle level, that would instantly kill any multi-classing so well done.
The player was a bit disappointed because he originally had favored soul levels so his saves took a massive hit. But he does like the Burning magic revalation which is the one he ultimately chose. Unfortunately they had suffered heavily from disease so we didn't get to any combat this session, roleplaying the reactions of the greatful populace.
Director of Games
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So I have a player in my game who is a sorcerer 4/Oracle 2 and has gone with the flame foci and the lame curse. By my reading of the oracle, the curse and the revelations he already has are based off of total level (only the saves seem to be based off of oracle level). So an he has immunity to fatigue and if he has fire breath he deals 6d4 with a save of (+3 Cha) 14. Just wanted to make sure that was intentional.
I do think that it is good though because it makes an oracle decent when multiclassed the curse especially can't be based off of Oracle level, that would instantly kill any multi-classing so well done.
The player was a bit disappointed because he originally had favored soul levels so his saves took a massive hit. But he does like the Burning magic revalation which is the one he ultimately chose. Unfortunately they had suffered heavily from disease so we didn't get to any combat this session, roleplaying the reactions of the greatful populace.
Unless otherwise noted, class abilities are based off levels in that class. This is discussed on page 31 of the core rulebook, in the last paragraph of the Multiclassing section.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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So I have a player in my game who is a sorcerer 4/Oracle 2 and has gone with the flame foci and the lame curse. By my reading of the oracle, the curse and the revelations he already has are based off of total level (only the saves seem to be based off of oracle level). So an he has immunity to fatigue and if he has fire breath he deals 6d4 with a save of (+3 Cha) 14. Just wanted to make sure that was intentional.
I do think that it is good though because it makes an oracle decent when multiclassed the curse especially can't be based off of Oracle level, that would instantly kill any multi-classing so well done.
The player was a bit disappointed because he originally had favored soul levels so his saves took a massive hit. But he does like the Burning magic revalation which is the one he ultimately chose. Unfortunately they had suffered heavily from disease so we didn't get to any combat this session, roleplaying the reactions of the greatful populace.
Unless otherwise noted, class abilities are based off levels in that class. This is discussed on page 31 of the core rulebook, in the last paragraph of the Multiclassing section.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
In that case then curses are terrible, terrible, terrible. There's absolutely never any way ever a person would want to create a multiclassed oracle because they get royally screwed by the curses, also the foci abilities themselves aren't that useful either because their pretty weak at low levels, but I'll talk to my player about it because I can understand that at least. As it is though, curses have to be based on total level, otherwise the drawback is way to harsh. You could never take 2-4 levels in this class needing at least 5 to get some benefit from the curses that doesn't leave you in screwed city.
Oh by the way while my initial impression of the curses was negative, I've definitely come around. I think they're just dandy, but yeah, that's one feature that needs to be based off of character level, not class level.
My player was talking about it, if the curses aren't based off of character level, he'll be switching his mutliclass back to favored soul, even though he thinks the oracle is better flavor wise.
Next session we'll be able to report how he fares in combat situations, by the way he went with the lame curse.
Oh, and they'll be traveling with a fighter 1/warrior1 and a cavalier 1/ Warrior 1, NPCs for the next few sessions (i use a system of NPC level buyout that will eventually just have them being fighter 2 and cavalier 2) So we'll be able to report how a fighter and a cavalier with the same equipment work.
Pathfinder intentionally discourages "dipping".
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Pathfinder intentionally discourages "dipping".
Actually it doesn't just discourage dipping, it kills multi-class, the character is a sorcerer/oracle going for theurge, the most levels he's going to have in oracle is 4, that's not a dip, but it's not enough to make his curse not royally bone him with no benefit.
In fact most multiclassed characters I know tend to take a PrC to balance their non-synergistic features. The curse as I said hurts that idea.
The lack of growth of the Foci benefits is more than enough to discourage dipping and one I have no problem with in fact when talking to my player I even told him that in my opinion the revelations should be based off of oracle level and the curse off of character level, but that as written I understood it all to be off of character level, but now I know it's because I didn't catch that rule in the multiclassing section.
So take a curse that doesn't have a big drawback, like Tongues. Tongues can be almost completely overcome if even one or two party members takes whichever language he speaks in during combat. He still won't be able to understand anything an enemy says in combat, but how often does that really matter anyway? He can still understand enemies throwing down their weapons in surrender, etc.
If he really insists on sticking with the Lame curse, that's another weak one, too, just not quite as weak. Have him buy a pair of boots of striding and springing and voila, he's back to 30' speed.
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Pathfinder intentionally discourages "dipping".Actually it doesn't just discourage dipping, it kills multi-class, the character is a sorcerer/oracle going for theurge, the most levels he's going to have in oracle is 4, that's not a dip, but it's not enough to make his curse not royally bone him with no benefit.
In fact most multiclassed characters I know tend to take a PrC to balance their non-synergistic features. The curse as I said hurts that idea.
How is this any different from a Sorcerer multiclassing? Or a Cleric? The bloodline abilities and the domain abilities both stop progressing with other classes. Same with a wizard's school powers. The Curses not progressing is just another bit of the same.
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How is this any different from a Sorcerer multiclassing? Or a Cleric? The bloodline abilities and the domain abilities both stop progressing with other classes. Same with a wizard's school powers. The Curses not progressing is just another bit of the same.Pathfinder intentionally discourages "dipping".Actually it doesn't just discourage dipping, it kills multi-class, the character is a sorcerer/oracle going for theurge, the most levels he's going to have in oracle is 4, that's not a dip, but it's not enough to make his curse not royally bone him with no benefit.
In fact most multiclassed characters I know tend to take a PrC to balance their non-synergistic features. The curse as I said hurts that idea.
Because Bloodline and domain abilities don't have a drawback, the curse however does. I'm not talking about the revelations I'm talking about the curses. revelations are weak but that's not a big deal, but the curses are a big deal and shouldn't be based off of oracle level.
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So take a curse that doesn't have a big drawback, like Tongues. Tongues can be almost completely overcome if even one or two party members takes whichever language he speaks in during combat. He still won't be able to understand anything an enemy says in combat, but how often does that really matter anyway? He can still understand enemies throwing down their weapons in surrender, etc.
If he really insists on sticking with the Lame curse, that's another weak one, too, just not quite as weak. Have him buy a pair of boots of striding and springing and voila, he's back to 30' speed.
A) tounges doesn't fit the character
B and this is the big one) you shouldn't have to take specific curses just because your character wants to have levels in another class, heck people are complaining that lame screws dwarves, I personally don't think that having one curse you can't take if your one race is that big a deal, yet that's okay but saying basically okay, you have to take one of the lesser curses even if they don't fit your character concept because the others have way to big a drawback for your multiclassing build that's just dandy?
You don't have to do anything. I've known people who have played blind (and not just limited vision, either) characters for no mechanical benefit whatsoever. If lame fits his character, that's fine. It's not a very strong curse. He won't be any slower than a cleric would be, since a cleric would be in medium armor and thus have its speed reduced to exactly what his is.
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You don't have to do anything. I've known people who have played blind (and not just limited vision, either) characters for no mechanical benefit whatsoever. If lame fits his character, that's fine. It's not a very strong curse. He won't be any slower than a cleric would be, since a cleric would be in medium armor and thus have its speed reduced to exactly what his is.
Right but he's not taking the curse because he wants a curse, he's taking it because it's a class requirement. Which is fine, but it's not fair, nothing the oracle grants is stronger than an equivalent level sorcerer bloodline. But he has to get boned by a curse that provides no benefits, it's not fair design. If there was some significant power behind the class that warranted the curse being based off oracle level, I'd be okay with it, but there isn't anything I can see that says that he should take a permanent penalty with no gain for god forbid wanting to play a spontaneous theurge.
In otherwords give me a fair reason the curse should be based off of Oracle level?
Right now honestly favored soul is a better class for him it has less flavor and didn't grant him anything, but at least it didn't arbitrarily weaken him for no real gain. But there's a simple fix, make the curse based off of character level instead and suddenly its still a fair and balanced feature.
If there was some significant power behind the class that warranted the curse being based off oracle level, I'd be okay with it, but there isn't anything I can see that says that he should take a permanent penalty with no gain for god forbid wanting to play a spontaneous theurge.
In otherwords give me a fair reason the curse should be based off of Oracle level?
Other than that is the way every other class works on class specific abilities?
You mention that he is getting a permanent penalty for no gain, yet you stress he wants a spontaneous Theurge, I believe he is getting something by having that curse. If he doesn't want the curse then he'll have to take cleric and lose the spontaneous divine casting. Seems like a tough decision and one should have those when multiclassing.
Right now honestly favored soul is a better class for him it has less flavor and didn't grant him anything, but at least it didn't arbitrarily weaken him for no real gain.
So I guess he has a tough decision again, does he go for flavor, or does he go for the best output in number crunching.
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Other than that is the way every other class works on class specific abilities?If there was some significant power behind the class that warranted the curse being based off oracle level, I'd be okay with it, but there isn't anything I can see that says that he should take a permanent penalty with no gain for god forbid wanting to play a spontaneous theurge.
In otherwords give me a fair reason the curse should be based off of Oracle level?
oh what other class has a feature that imparts a drawback, is it the monk? or the sorcerer? enlighten me please.
You mention that he is getting a permanent penalty for no gain, yet you stress he wants a spontaneous Theurge, I believe he is getting something by having that curse. If he doesn't want the curse then he'll have to take cleric and lose the spontaneous divine casting. Seems like a tough decision and one should have those when multiclassing.
oh yeah, cause there isn't a favored soul, or a shaman, Oracle is the only spontaneous divine class out there.
Right now honestly favored soul is a better class for him it has less flavor and didn't grant him anything, but at least it didn't arbitrarily weaken him for no real gain.So I guess he has a tough decision again, does he go for flavor, or does he go for the best output in number crunching.
That's supposed to be a choice, here take the class that screws you but has flavor or the class that doesn't? when all it takes is a fix to the one ability. I'm not over here saying make the revelations based off of character level, I'm talking about a single ability, an ability that from actual playtest harms the character and provides no benefit, name a single other class feature in the game that does that, hmm. and your answer is no don't fix it because no ability ever can work differently than the others?
on an unrelated note, a deaf multiclassed oracle/any other spellcaster can cast all spells as if modified by the silent spell feat, not just the oracle spells, am I correct?
Yes.
oh what other class has a feature that imparts a drawback, is it the monk? or the sorcerer? enlighten me please.
It is a class specific feature, whether other classes have the same thing or not. You get some unique powers and at higher level the bonuses you get start to outweigh the drawback.
oh yeah, cause there isn't a favored soul, or a shaman, Oracle is the only spontaneous divine class out there.
None of those are Pathfinder classes. This is a Pathfinder specific class, and you shouldn't assume that any game will allow any previous 3.5 splat book class.
That's supposed to be a choice, here take the class that screws you but has flavor or the class that doesn't? when all it takes is a fix to the one ability. I'm not over here saying make the revelations based off of character level, I'm talking about a single ability, an ability that from actual playtest harms the character and provides no benefit, name a single other class feature in the game that does that, hmm. and your answer is no don't fix it because no ability ever can work differently than the others?
Again, being Pathfinder, wanting a spontaneous casting Theurge, this is the only choice. The question should be do these penalties screw the player taking only Oracle levels. It is good to notice that it hurts a three class build, but changing it would only encourage level dipping.(especially at higher levels like 10th or 15th)
And you seem hung up on the fact that the Oracle class has a different mechanic in it. Indeed it is a penalty and at the same time gives you a bonus. You get a little more of a bonus at 5th and then again at 10th and 15th. If someone doesn't want to stick with a class long enough to get those bonuses to offset the penalty, than that is their choice...just like choosing to multi-class off of cleric and not getting any more of the domain powers or any other class specific features.
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oh what other class has a feature that imparts a drawback, is it the monk? or the sorcerer? enlighten me please.It is a class specific feature, whether other classes have the same thing or not. You get some unique powers and at higher level the bonuses you get start to outweigh the drawback.
None of those are Pathfinder classes. This is a Pathfinder specific class, and you shouldn't assume that any game will allow any previous 3.5 splat book class.
oh yeah, cause there isn't a favored soul, or a shaman, Oracle is the only spontaneous divine class out there.
Oh I get it, so it's okay to be inferior because its the only official option, gotcha.
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And you seem hung up on the fact that the Oracle class has a different mechanic in it. Indeed it is a penalty and at the same time gives you a bonus. You get a little more of a bonus at 5th and then again at 10th and 15th. If someone doesn't want to stick with a class long enough to get those bonuses to offset the penalty, than that is their choice...just like choosing to multi-class off of cleric and not getting any more of the domain powers or any other class specific features.
Except that when multi-classing off of cleric you don't loose anything in the process. You seem hung up on the idea that somehow the benefits of just the curse are so great that people are going to dip despite the fact that the revelation powers would be pathetically weak.
Somehow it's okay that you can dip a sorcerer and take no drawbacks, but the divine version is somehow overpowered because how? this is a balance issue, the drawback isn't balanced if you don't stay in the class. There's a difference between making multi-classing a less optimal option, which it is because of spell levels, the revelations and everything else, and outright actively discouraging it, which this does.
Oh I get it, so it's okay to be inferior because its the only official option, gotcha.
Look, the Oracle as a class may be underpowered or inferior to others, maybe you need more bonuses for the penalty, or maybe something that different can't be done. What I like about the curse is the hard choice it would make to multi-class. Maybe this choice is too hard, maybe not, but making it character level vs class level invites level dipping at high levels that shouldn't just be ignored.
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Oh I get it, so it's okay to be inferior because its the only official option, gotcha.Look, the Oracle as a class may be underpowered or inferior to others, maybe you need more bonuses for the penalty, or maybe something that different can't be done. What I like about the curse is the hard choice it would make to multi-class. Maybe this choice is too hard, maybe not, but making it character level vs class level invites level dipping at high levels that shouldn't just be ignored.
I don't really think it does just because even at those high levels the drawbacks don't exceed the penalty, just make it an equivalent exchange. I'm fine with the abilities being reworked, I'm saying if they stay as they are they are too harsh, if they can be fixed so they aren't great. But I don't see any benefit any of those curses that would make me want to dip into that penalty at high level, even blinsense isn't equal to the amount of f~!& you up a spellcaster could do to you where you wouldn't even be able to see him because he's 65ft away. The easiest fix is making it character level dependant. Maybe a harder fix is better, that's for Jason to decide, but I'm confident in saying that it isn't a hard choice as it stands right now, it's a non-choice, somethings got to change.
on an unrelated note, a deaf multiclassed oracle/any other spellcaster can cast all spells as if modified by the silent spell feat, not just the oracle spells, am I correct?Yes.
Err... I don't think so. Class features which modify other class features affect only that class's features. This isn't spelled out anywhere, but it's implicit to the structure of class definitions. For instance:
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered oracle level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), an oracle can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the oracle loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. An oracle may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
Following the logic which allows a deaf oracle to cast any class's spells as silent for free, this text means that a Sorcerer 14 / Oracle 3, who then gains Oracle 4, can choose to swap out a 6th-level Sorcerer spell.
Err... I don't think so. Class features which modify other class features affect only that class's features.
If that's true, why do they explicitly spell it out in only a few cases, and never explicitly state "this feature applies to everything"?
Following the logic which allows a deaf oracle to cast any class's spells as silent for free, this text means that a Sorcerer 14 / Oracle 3, who then gains Oracle 4, can choose to swap out a 6th-level Sorcerer spell.
Nope. That's in the specific section talking about Oracle spells known.
Furthermore, I can almost guarantee that the intent is for the Oracle to cast all spells as if modified by Silent, because otherwise a deaf Oracle would essentially be forbidden from multiclassing with any other spellcaster, due to the 20% spell failure.
Furthermore, I can almost guarantee that the intent is for the Oracle to cast all spells as if modified by Silent, because otherwise a deaf Oracle would essentially be forbidden from multiclassing with any other spellcaster, due to the 20% spell failure.
Kind of like how a clouded oracle is essentially forbidden from multiclassing as a ranged combat specialist? It seems to be a class theme. :) And the deaf oracle doesn't want to multiclass bard in any case.
I'm not sold on this being a good mechanic, but it's definitely how I read it.
Kind of like how a clouded oracle is essentially forbidden from multiclassing as a ranged combat specialist?
Not at all. There are ranged combat specialists who do all their damage from 30-60'. Scouts can't skirmish past 30', and Warlocks' eldritch blast has a 60' range unless you take eldritch spear. You won't ever be a sniper, but there's no class that has long distance sniping as even one element of a class feature.
And the deaf oracle doesn't want to multiclass bard in any case.
Perform: Dance.
And the deaf oracle doesn't want to multiclass bard in any case.Perform: Dance.
I meant because Silent Spell doesn't apply to bard spells.
I meant because Silent Spell doesn't apply to bard spells.And the deaf oracle doesn't want to multiclass bard in any case.Perform: Dance.
Ah. Good point. Not enough to convince me I'm wrong, but a good point nonetheless.
APG is a core book, not a splat book. 320 pages, and usable in Society play.
on an unrelated note, a deaf multiclassed oracle/any other spellcaster can cast all spells as if modified by the silent spell feat, not just the oracle spells, am I correct?Yes.Err... I don't think so. Class features which modify other class features affect only that class's features. This isn't spelled out anywhere, but it's implicit to the structure of class definitions. For instance:
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered oracle level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), an oracle can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the oracle loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. An oracle may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.Following the logic which allows a deaf oracle to cast any class's spells as silent for free, this text means that a Sorcerer 14 / Oracle 3, who then gains Oracle 4, can choose to swap out a 6th-level Sorcerer spell.
Deaf: You cannot hear and suffer all of the usual
penalties for being deafened. You cast all of your spells as
if they were modified by the Silent Spell feat.
Let's look at the mechanics, folks. It specifically says "all of your spells," not "all of your oracle spells." Current writing of the class indicates it affects all other multi-class options. Granted, this gets really funny with, say, Bard spells. In fact, I dare say non-functional.
The writing of this curse could change before the end of the playtest, but I don't see why they would bother. It's not like Oracle is that strong right now.
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Curses cannot be considered to use character level instead of class level - some of the abilities simply don't make sense. For example, the haunted curse grants free spells. Giving telekinesis to a Fighter 5/Oracle 5 would be a bit odd, particularly since there's no way to cast it.
Other abilities would make dipping extremely attractive, especially after 10th of 15th level. In most cases, the high-level benefits of curses dramatically outweigh the low-level penalties. Besides, picking up a single level of a class when you hit 15th shouldn't grant a whole host of abilities (let alone 6 spells). I'll admit that some curses are not nearly as attractive for high-level cherry picking, but there are enough that they should not be governed by character level.
The exception in my thought process it the Clouded Vision curse. I LOVE the concept, but that HURTS. Additionally, if your race already grants darkvision, you gain no benefit until 10th level. That is a long time to wait; prohibitively long if you're multi-class. I would argue that the progression of Clouded Vision should count all levels gained since the curse was applied (i.e. - since the first level of Oracle). I'll even go a step further and recommend some low-level benefit be added - at the very least for those characters who already have darkvision.
We must be looking at different curses, about the only one worth the drawbacks for dipping a level in oracle is the language one. I really don't see anyone dipping for that. deaf isn't worth it, clouded vision isn't worth it, Lame isn't worth it, haunted you can't even use the spells known so how is that not already internally balanced. wasting may be worth it if you're playing a non-charismatic character, but really what I've seen is no ability worth the drawbacks.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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based off of total level
Always been based off total levels of the class in question in 3.5 and in 3.p, the only way it depended off total levels in all classes was when it said "character level."
Pathfinder intentionally discourages "dipping".Actually it doesn't just discourage dipping, it kills multi-class
Not any more than any other class (like Cleric) kills multi-classing.
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based off of total levelAlways been based off total levels of the class in question in 3.5 and in 3.p, the only way it depended off total levels in all classes was when it said "character level."
Not any more than any other class (like Cleric) kills multi-classing.Pathfinder intentionally discourages "dipping".Actually it doesn't just discourage dipping, it kills multi-class
Yeah I forgot that when you take a level of cleric you have to be blind past thirty feet or completely deaf with nothing to show for it, or not be able to comunicate during a battle, or permanently reduce your speed, or not benefit from bandolier or really have any more than one ranged attack a round no matter how many iteratives you have. Yeah one level of cleric does that.
Yeah I forgot that when you take a level of cleric you have to be blind past thirty feet or completely deaf with nothing to show for it
You're overstating your position, sir. Not one of the Oracle curses fails to give a bonus at 1st level. There is no "oh no, I can't see past 30', and I get no bonus to make up for it!" curse. There is a "oh no, I can't see past 30', but at least I get Darkvision 30' to make up for it!" curse, though. And more importantly for a multi-class character, a "oh no, I'm permanently deaf, but at least every single spell I cast, from any class, is automatically effected by Silent Spell for free!" curse.
And more importantly for a multi-class character, a "oh no, I'm permanently deaf, but at least every single spell I cast, from any class, is automatically effected by Silent Spell for free!" curse.But casters don't dip. Casters already get the best scaling class feature in the game to encourage them to stay in their class. If you are dipping Oracle for the Deafness curse, you're not only crippling your character with the disadvantage, you're crippling your character's casting.
A single level dip is never crippling for a caster. It puts them one level behind on their spells, yes. However, they can still cast 9th level spells by 20th level, and the caster level can still be made up with a feat. A disadvantage with regards to spellcasting, yes. Crippling? I think you are vastly overstating the effect.
A single level dip is never crippling for a caster. It puts them one level behind on their spells, yes. However, they can still cast 9th level spells by 20th level, and the caster level can still be made up with a feat. A disadvantage with regards to spellcasting, yes. Crippling? I think you are vastly overstating the effect.Did you have an issue with the argument presented, instead of my word choice in presenting it?
That depends. If your argument was :
A built in mechanic exists to make it unfavorable for a caster to dip 1 level into another class, that is, he will be forever one CL behind in his chosen casting class.
Then no, that is a valid argument, and it comes down to personal preference as to whether that dip is worth it. I think you picked a very poor choice of words to express your argument though.
For a wizard, the advantage of 20th level is one extra 8th and 9th level spell, and (a highly variable) capstone from your school. Divination for example is really a very weak capstone. Conjuration is pretty powerful (permanent summon monster IX?).
For a sorcerer, it's a harder decision. Most (not all) of the 20th level bloodline powers are very powerful (especially compared to the wizard capstones).
For a cleric, on the other hand, you don't get a capstone. So all you are giving up is an 8th and 9th level spell. In exchange, you get silent spell on all your spells from 1st to 20th level. That's a rather hefty advantage and not a bad trade off.
Now, if your argument was :
If you ever drop a level in a spell casting class, you have crippled your character and made him useless and might as well shoot him in the head because he's a crippled and useless character.
Then no, I don't agree with your statement, and I think you need to rethink your stance based on the above. This was what I got from your wording, whether you intended it or not.
I really like the curse idea, for the very unique flavor it gives the class.
If it makes the class difficult to multiclass, I suppose that is a valid criticism, but it wouldn't be the first class that had this problem; the Druid and Monk come to mind.
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Yeah I forgot that when you take a level of cleric you have to be blind past thirty feet or completely deaf with nothing to show for itYou're overstating your position, sir. Not one of the Oracle curses fails to give a bonus at 1st level. There is no "oh no, I can't see past 30', and I get no bonus to make up for it!" curse. There is a "oh no, I can't see past 30', but at least I get Darkvision 30' to make up for it!" curse, though. And more importantly for a multi-class character, a "oh no, I'm permanently deaf, but at least every single spell I cast, from any class, is automatically effected by Silent Spell for free!" curse.
not = to the penalty of having no hearing. and definitely not worth loosing that much sight for 30' darkvision one of the cheapest and easiest attained abilities in the game. I can even sight haunts that had a audible warning that a deaf character would get no warning before the haunt effected them even if they otherwise would have made the check. Fact is curses as is don't work unless you play a single class oracle. that means something has to change. I would prefer they remain as is with one minor change than re-worked.
not = to the penalty of having no hearing. and definitely not worth loosing that much sight for 30' darkvision one of the cheapest and easiest attained abilities in the game.Yeah I forgot that when you take a level of cleric you have to be blind past thirty feet or completely deaf with nothing to show for itYou're overstating your position, sir. Not one of the Oracle curses fails to give a bonus at 1st level. There is no "oh no, I can't see past 30', and I get no bonus to make up for it!" curse. There is a "oh no, I can't see past 30', but at least I get Darkvision 30' to make up for it!" curse, though. And more importantly for a multi-class character, a "oh no, I'm permanently deaf, but at least every single spell I cast, from any class, is automatically effected by Silent Spell for free!" curse.
The do not take it, that one must stay as it's the most classic curse of an oracle
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The do not take it, that one must stay as it's the most classic curse of an oraclenot = to the penalty of having no hearing. and definitely not worth loosing that much sight for 30' darkvision one of the cheapest and easiest attained abilities in the game.Yeah I forgot that when you take a level of cleric you have to be blind past thirty feet or completely deaf with nothing to show for itYou're overstating your position, sir. Not one of the Oracle curses fails to give a bonus at 1st level. There is no "oh no, I can't see past 30', and I get no bonus to make up for it!" curse. There is a "oh no, I can't see past 30', but at least I get Darkvision 30' to make up for it!" curse, though. And more importantly for a multi-class character, a "oh no, I'm permanently deaf, but at least every single spell I cast, from any class, is automatically effected by Silent Spell for free!" curse.
None of the curses are fair if you multiclass. not one! I never was refrencing a single curse I'm refrencing the ability as a whole.
then do not take the class, you know going in it has a curse trying to over come it by multiclassing is kinda odd. Its a class feature just like any other. Class features do not stack with non class level
It improves as you level as a reward for sticking with the class and increasing your power. I am not sure why you think a class ability would improve for being an oracle 1/fighter 15 any more then a wizard 1/fighter 15 would
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then do not take the class, you know going in it has a curse trying to over come it by multiclassing is kinda odd. Its a class feature just like any other. Class features do not stack with non class level
It improves as you level as a reward for sticking with the class and increasing your power. I am not sure why you think a class ability would improve for being an oracle 1/fighter 15 any more then a wizard 1/fighter 15 would
Or fix the ability since its a playtest. instead of covering your ears and saying nyah nyah nothings wrong. The difference is you can take any other class one level and all your missing out on is the advancement of your abilities, take one level of oracle and your getting a screw you. And my player isn't taking one level he's taking four for a character concept and your answers is well he should be punished for it.