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The armor discussion in "The Challenge Mechanic-Does it work?" thread brought up a thought for me. The Cavalier train and fight extensively in heavy armor, and that bring us the topic; should it get the Armor Training like the Fighter have?
I'd argue that they should get heavy armor training, but no light armor training.
The armor discussion in "The Challenge Mechanic-Does it work?" thread brought up a thought for me. The Cavalier train and fight extensively in heavy armor, and that bring us the topic; should it get the Armor Training like the Fighter have?I'd argue that they should get heavy armor training, but no light armor training.
how exactly would that work?
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I think Cavaliers are perfectly functional as is. Order of the Sword reduces the ACP by 1/2 with regards to the ride skill at 8th level.
While I would be in favor of removing the acp for ride checks on cavaliers in general, I think giving them the fighters Armor Training is going a bit farther than necessary.
I honestly don't know why there's ACP on Ride in the first place. It was added in Alpha (yes, that's right, Pathfinder added it; the only ACP on Ride in 3.5 was for quick mounting), removed in Beta after we pointed it out in Alpha, and mysteriously made it back into Release. It makes no sense for ACP to penalize Ride. Knights in full plate rode in combat all the time and were able to direct their horses.
I honestly don't know why there's ACP on Ride in the first place. It was added in Alpha (yes, that's right, Pathfinder added it; the only ACP on Ride in 3.5 was for quick mounting), removed in Beta after we pointed it out in Alpha, and mysteriously made it back into Release. It makes no sense for ACP to penalize Ride. Knights in full plate rode in combat all the time and were able to direct their horses.
You can ride your horse in armor, it's just harder if you are. That's all the ACP represents, that something is harder. If you don't think it's harder, try strapping 30 lbs of one ounce lead weights to your torso and then try to run a steeple course. You can do it, but that extra weight throws off your balance and when the horse turns sharply, you have extra weight throwing you in the direction you are already traveling.
I do agree that if you train heavily with the armor on horseback, you can learn to compensate completely. I think a good compromise would be a similar mechanic to the fighter's ACP reduction, but only applying to the Ride skill, not all skills.
EDIT: A post by someone who, prior to his allergies becoming too bad, used to love horseback riding, but hated doing it while camping, because my 25lb backpack almost made me eat dirt every time the horse spooked.
You can ride your horse in armor, it's just harder if you are. That's all the ACP represents, that something is harder. If you don't think it's harder, try strapping 30 lbs of one ounce lead weights to your torso and then try to run a steeple course. You can do it, but that extra weight throws off your balance and when the horse turns sharply, you have extra weight throwing you in the direction you are already traveling.
That's fine, but it's got very little to do with how the Ride skill works. Ride is how you give directions to your mount in addition to how you stay in your saddle. Actually, "Stay in the saddle" is exactly one out of a list of 8 things that Ride does. Other things covered by Ride: "Guide with knees", "fight with combat-trained mount", "leap" (that's the mount, not the rider), "spur mount", "control mount in battle". None of those have jack-all to do with how heavy your armor is.
Not to mention that you cannot compare wearing a 50 pound backpack to wearing a 50 pound suit of full plate. Your backpack concentrates all of the weight in a spot that is very bad for riding. Full plate is specifically designed not to interfere with riding; all of its weight is distributed evenly over your body, meaning that your center of gravity doesn't change, your range of movement isn't unevenly changed, etc.
I can see the ACP applying to quick mount/dismount (as it did in 3.5), soft fall, and cover. That's it.
To answer the original question: no, cavaliers should not get armor training like fighters. Cavaliers are a more interesting class all around than the fighter AND they already get fighter bonus feats. Giving away armor training is just going to make the fighter even more obsolete.
My opinion about the opening question:
No, because...
1) Cavalier tends to be a mounted combat class, and thus, he partially doesn't need it and for the other part he doesn't "train" on it.
2) That feature should stay Fighter-only, first because Cavaliers already have their wide array of capabilities, and second because it makes a Fighter more unique.
If a cavalier wants to be mobile, it seems like, as a class with mounted combat capabilities, he should use a mount. On foot, he can slog it out just like a paladin.
So you two guys ignored the fact that the Cavalier invoke the concept of a heavy cavalryman type warrior which wear heavy armour and have trained most of his life for fighting in heavy armour while mounted or on foot?
He trains in heavy armor, yes, but like Paladin does, not the way of Fighter, who makes the best of his gears.
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So you two guys ignored the fact that the Cavalier invoke the concept of a heavy cavalryman type warrior which wear heavy armour and have trained most of his life for fighting in heavy armour while mounted or on foot?
Like they said. The paladin trained his entire life in heavy armor as well, and he doesn't get Armor Training. Why? Because he was also learning other things. The Cavalier is also busy learning other things. If you want to remove the acp from his riding check, I think most people wouldn't have a problem with that. It fits the flavor of the class. However, allowing him to use acrobatics in full plate on foot, is not within the flavor of the class.
I just think that aspect of the "Mounted Mastery" from the Order of the Sword should be a cavalier class feature for all cavaliers.
"At 8th level, the cavalier applies 1/2 the normal armor check penalty to the Ride skill."
So you two guys ignored the fact that the Cavalier invoke the concept of a heavy cavalryman type warrior which wear heavy armour and have trained most of his life for fighting in heavy armour while mounted or on foot?
Yes. Because the cavalier is already better than the fighter and the fighter needs every bit of individuality that he can muster.
Nope...
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I just think that aspect of the "Mounted Mastery" from the Order of the Sword should be a cavalier class feature for all cavaliers.
"At 8th level, the cavalier applies 1/2 the normal armor check penalty to the Ride skill."
Just give all cavaliers the benefit of adding half their cavalier level to ride checks related to their mount. It doesn't impede on the order version (in fact stacks with it) and shows how a cavalier has trained with using a mount regardless of armor.
I'm in two minds about the armor training however. You say a cavalier trained with armor like a Paladin but it seems that the Paladin gets more than the cavalier atm. I guess this stems from the mish mash of abilities the cavalier gains from orders, oaths and challenge but comparing the two its clear that the paladin gets more versatility and strength at later levels especially.
The cavalier does need something else (or an amalgamation of existing abilities) and I think with the "is inherently non-magical" restriction applied by Jason people are going to be inclined to pick on Fighter abilities than on the Paladins.
Director of Games
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Hey there all,
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skill, but giving them armor training like a fighter is probably out. There is enough cross pollination between these classes as it is.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skill
Sounds great, hopefully equal or better than Fighter Armor Training. (FOR RIDE SKILL, obviously)
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skillSounds great, hopefully equal or better than Fighter Armor Training.
It should not be better, at lest in most cases, thats the fighters bone, he should be left it
It should not be better, at lest in most cases, thats the fighters bone, he should be left itI am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skillSounds great, hopefully equal or better than Fighter Armor Training.
No, it SHOULD be better, because it only applies to one skill.
No, it SHOULD be better, because it only applies to one skill.It should not be better, at lest in most cases, thats the fighters bone, he should be left itI am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skillSounds great, hopefully equal or better than Fighter Armor Training.
As long as he does not gain full movement in it, I am fine with ACP for riding being gone
Since that's all Jason was talking about, I'd say that's a pretty easy bet. Doesn't make sense for a warrior who's trained to fight horseback to be as quick as one who's trained to fight on foot, anyway. That's what they're on horses for, after all.
Since that's all Jason was talking about, I'd say that's a pretty easy bet. Doesn't make sense for a warrior who's trained to fight horseback to be as quick as one who's trained to fight on foot, anyway. That's what they're on horses for, after all.
Agreed. I think something like, ignore light ACP at 1st level, Medium at 7th, and heavy at 14th would be a nice progression. Either that, or a flat amount, like -2 at 1st, -4 at 7th, -6 at 14th, and all ACP's after 18th.
Long as the ACP is toward the riding skill I think that would work well
Long as the ACP is toward the riding skill I think that would work well
That was the intent of my post.
Should the Cavalier get Armor Training: Simple answer, no. The Fighter needs to keep weapon training, and armor training. Its the only thing that makes the fighter, the fighter.
Handing out these abilities to other classes just makes the fighter obsolete and thus we run into the 3.5 problem again that fighter is just a 2 level dip class.
Handing out these abilities to other classes just makes the fighter obsolete and thus we run into the 3.5 problem again that fighter is just a 2 level dip class.
Yes, obsolete unless you ever get off your Mount to do something.
But who ever takes Acrobatics anyways?Don't worry, nobody is talking about taking away Fighter Weapon/Armor Training - They're in print after all.
I think the ACP should stay but to mitigate that have the mount class feature could give a bonus to ride due the bond between the Cavalier and his mount. This makes sense based on this line from the Mount class feature; "A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves.". Since the pair anticipate each other moves that should provide a bonus to ride as long as the Cavalier is on his own specially trained mount. Maybe a +2 at first level and it increases by 1 every 4 levels for a +7 at 20th level.
Hey there all,
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skill, but giving them armor training like a fighter is probably out. There is enough cross pollination between these classes as it is.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That sounds like the best solution. I don't see cavalry training letting them stealth or run the way a fighter can in plate, but I do see how it would negate ACP.
That sounds like the best solution. I don't see cavalry training letting them stealth or run the way a fighter can in plate, but I do see how it would negate ACP.Hey there all,
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skill, but giving them armor training like a fighter is probably out. There is enough cross pollination between these classes as it is.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Agreed. Maybe something that gradually grants the cavalier (and his mount) the ability to wear armour without Ride penalties for the Cavalier and even more penalties for the mount - I could very much picture the Cavalier being specialized in training (his) mount to the point where it became used to the armor. So maybe giving his mount "Armor Training". Maybe letting the armour training replace some other tihng the mount gets. Could make it feel a bit less like a druid companion transferred to the Cavalier and more like a Cavalier's proud battle mount.
Just my reasoning.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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That sounds like the best solution. I don't see cavalry training letting them stealth or run the way a fighter can in plate, but I do see how it would negate ACP.Hey there all,
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skill, but giving them armor training like a fighter is probably out. There is enough cross pollination between these classes as it is.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingAgreed. Maybe something that gradually grants the cavalier (and his mount) the ability to wear armour without Ride penalties for the Cavalier and even more penalties for the mount - I could very much picture the Cavalier being specialized in training (his) mount to the point where it became used to the armor. So maybe giving his mount "Armor Training". Maybe letting the armour training replace some other tihng the mount gets. Could make it feel a bit less like a druid companion transferred to the Cavalier and more like a Cavalier's proud battle mount.
Just my reasoning.
That's an interesting idea. I'd be happy if the cavalier mount got bonus feats for armor proficiency. Making a full plate barding warhorse costs 3 feats for the mount to not take penalties from armor. Allowing the mount not to be slowed by armor similar to a fighter would be extra sweet on top of that!
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Well it doesn't have to be necessarily same as the Fighter's Armor Training, but a small class feature (as Armor Training is one) that reward the Cavalier for wearing medium/heavy armor in addition to a forthcoming ability that apply reduction to ACP when involving the Ride Skill.Hey there all,
I am looking into an ability that grants them a reduction or elimination to their ACP for the Ride skill, but giving them armor training like a fighter is probably out. There is enough cross pollination between these classes as it is.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
As I've already thought of two cavalier character concepts that work around being lightly armored I have to disagree. There is absolutely no reason to give them benefits in armor any more than there is to give the paladin or barbarian. Ride skill penalty reduction is where it needs to stay, I don't want to see the class typecast as exactly one type of build.
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That's an interesting idea. I'd be happy if the cavalier mount got bonus feats for armor proficiency. Making a full plate barding warhorse costs 3 feats for the mount to not take penalties from armor. Allowing the mount not to be slowed by armor similar to a fighter would be extra sweet on top of that!
Understanding it's a fantasy game and everything goes, I really do not want to see horses in heavy armor, it's just silly. if horses get armor proficiency which I actually support since they obviously won't have link and share spells, it should be just light and maybe at higher level (around ten) medium, it should never be heavy. in fact thats exactly what it should say
A cavalier's mount gets light armor proficiency in place of share spells.
That's it, finito, done.
Understanding it's a fantasy game and everything goes, I really do not want to see horses in heavy armor, it's just silly.
Silly? Try quite historically accurate.
So maybe giving his mount "Armor Training". Maybe letting the armour training replace some other tihng the mount gets. Could make it feel a bit less like a druid companion transferred to the Cavalier and more like a Cavalier's proud battle mount.
Just my reasoning.
That's a really awesome idea. Right now, the Cavalier's mount doesn't really get anything special like the paladin and ranger pets get (druids have 8 billion spells they can give their pets, which counts as something special to me). This would be a cool way to give the cavalier something without verging over into the supernatural.
That doesn't particularly make sense to me. How are you going to know how to move better in full plate but still be slowed down by breastplate (which is one piece of a suit of full plate)???I think he meant that the Armor Training should only work for medium and Heavy Armor? Kinda like reversing these where abilities only work if you were wearing light or no armor, medium, light or no armor.Now that, I can understand. It doesn't really make a difference though, considering the armors that get used with armor training are medium and heavy lol.
A chain shirt would have a +8 max dex at full armor training, most fighters couldn't fill that and expect to deal any reasonable amount of damage in combat.
A Mithral chain shirt maxes out effect at 26 Dex. Any fighter who starts with a 15 Dex can reach that, with +5 Inherent from a Book and a +6 enhancement bonus. Furthermore, it would be stupid of them NOT to plan to take advantage of max dex bonus. If they have to upgrade to Mithral BP for a lower Dex and higher Armor bonus, all well and good.
The penalty from the Full Plate is from the additional mass and less flexibility. You really don't expect someone in full plate to be swinging over the side, standing on their mount, doing handstands, etc, like someone in leather might, do you? Your best riders wear light armor so they can move around. All those great riding manuvers are typically done by people wearing no armor whatsoever.
Now, a nice alternate rule would be to have it much harder to unseat someone in heavy armor, because of that mass...apply the ACP as a bonus against that roll, as the armor disperses the impact and keeps you in the saddle.
===Aelryinth
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Understanding it's a fantasy game and everything goes, I really do not want to see horses in heavy armor, it's just silly.Silly? Try quite historically accurate.
That's not full plate, note the completely unprotected legs and stomach of the horse? at best its medium armor. which is why I said at best medium, but for free they should probably only get light armor and then if they want to invest in the feats through AnCo they can.
That's not full plate, note the completely unprotected legs and stomach of the horse? at best its medium armor. which is why I said at best medium, but for free they should probably only get light armor and then if they want to invest in the feats through AnCo they can.
At the very worst it's half plate which is -- get this -- heavy armor. You never said "full plate barding is silly", you said "heavy armor barding is silly", and I never claimed those were examples of full plate armor.
Note that the first example really is full plate barding for a "riding dog", and the third is banded mail covering the upper half of the legs, which is, again, heavy armor.
The 3rd pic(BTW which is awesome) would count as chain mail for the guy(maybe splint, but there is not much splint there} and prob splint for the horse
The 3rd pic(BTW which is awesome) would count as chain mail for the guy(maybe splint, but there is not much splint there} and prob splint for the horse
Cool, so we agree that heavy armor barding isn't silly, it's awesome! ;)
FWIW, I call it banded mail because the mail strips are parallel to the curvature of the horse's body. Splint mail is perpendicular to the curvature. That's why banded has better max dex and ACP.
The 3rd pic(BTW which is awesome) would count as chain mail for the guy(maybe splint, but there is not much splint there} and prob splint for the horseCool, so we agree that heavy armor barding isn't silly, it's awesome! ;)
FWIW, I call it banded mail because the mail strips are parallel to the curvature of the horse's body. Splint mail is perpendicular to the curvature. That's why banded has better max dex and ACP.
You have a good point, I still have the 2e book with all them armors in it. Oddly its very backward comparable really, with a little work.
I was looking at the one on the guy and did not notice they were made up of small bands, just saw the strips. I think folks get to caught up in the "classic" knight and forget that other types did exist
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The 3rd pic(BTW which is awesome) would count as chain mail for the guy(maybe splint, but there is not much splint there} and prob splint for the horseCool, so we agree that heavy armor barding isn't silly, it's awesome! ;)
FWIW, I call it banded mail because the mail strips are parallel to the curvature of the horse's body. Splint mail is perpendicular to the curvature. That's why banded has better max dex and ACP.
while they are all good protection I can point out in each pic (except the dog pic) several, repeat several areas of exposed horse flesh, compare that to the humans riding them in half and full plate and tell me the amount of exposed flesh you see. just because the armor looks similar doesn't mean it provides the same cover and protection. And that's where I'm coming from, admitedly that dog is pretty well armored, but those horses aren't wearing heavy armor in my opinion. Just because they are wearing plates of armor, as far as I'm concerned the type of armor is based on the amount of coverage, and those horses aren't encased in armor as an equivalent human would be.