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I don't even feel like arguing for paladins of Neutral gods anymore.=D
Sorry, someone pulled my string. :P
It's actually the reverse, the God should be within one step of the Paladin, since the Paladin doesn't have a choice on alignments. Or even more cogently, only certain dieties will sponsor paladins and the dieties in principle should be of an alignment that would not preclude the Paladin from associating with at least some of thier clerics.Should does not mean must however. A Neutral god can be amenable to a Lawful Good character. Now, the question is "does the word 'follow' mean 'must be the same alignment as' according to the rules?" I posit no, since clerics can follow a god while being one step different from it in alignment. Since there is no such step rule for paladins and gods, it is open to interpretation.
Also...
I feel like pointing out that no one is mentioning paladins of Asmodeus. In the write up for the god in the Mother of Flies module, number 29 for those kids without it, it says paladins of Asmodeus exist. Page 63-64 writes how Asmodeus pulls it off and why he has them.Honestly, I am okay with this. I'm not a fan of paladins of Asmodeus, and had I noticed that bit before the volume went to print, I would have removed all mention of them.
Funny how these same disagreements keep popping up no matter how many times we hash them out, eh James?
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Setting and core rules are not the same. Setting always over rules core rules. Clerics in golarion must have a god, paladins do not need one, however if they have one then the god grants the power not some kind of "good pool"
If you choose to have a god, your gonna need to be within one step or there is little point to saying "I am a paladin of x" as your not his paladin, you don't spread his faith or believe in his teachings.
Everyone has a god or most do in golarion as they know what happens when they die if they do not, ya worship gods whose ideals you believe in and whose teachings hit home. So yeah one step is just common sense as ya don't have much in common with a CG god other then..well he's good. I don't believe in 90% of his teachings but hey he's good right? a CG god is a far from what you believe as a LE god is.
What a hideous fallacy.
I thought Paizo was trying to get away from "Lawful Stupid". Lawful is inherently secondary to the good part of paladin-hood. No other class is as restrictive or potentially damaging to a party as a whole then a Paladin.
Your argument that a cleric is a divine warrior completely invalidates the purpose of the paladin class... if that's how you feel about it, why even play with a paladin anyway?
No one should play a "Lawful Stupid" character ever.
Paladins are Lawful Good. Not Good with lawful tendencies. Not Lawful with good tendencies.
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The paladins code limit you more then any other rule
*A paladin must be of lawful good alignment
*Respect legitimate authority,
*Act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
*Help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)
*punish those who harm or threaten innocents.This puts the nail in worshiping any evil god
Kinda a related note, in pathfinder some of the paladins powers {Divine Bond and Holy Champion] are spelled out as coming from a god. So in all likely hood the new book will require you to have a god as at lest two powers come from gods and not "belief in good"
It puts a nail into Knowingly serving an Evil god. But unknowingly serving and slowly being corrupted. That is different.
Good is two steps away from evil. Thus, a neutral evil cleric of Sarenrae isn't legal. "Two steps away" would allow for the following alignments for Sarenrae: LG, NG, CG, or plain old neutral.If they are legal then so would be NE clerics of Sarenrae to be blunt. I have not read the article as I do not own it, however a paladin could not worship an evil god and stay LG.
It really is that simple
The way I see it if a LG paladin can be grated powers and spells by an evil god a cleric can as well. The NE cleric of sarenrae makes as much sense then a LG paladin who worships and is granted his powers by an evil god. As his code outright forbids such a thing, if you can not openly worship your god and follow his teachings without breaking your code, that kinda rules out evil or chaotic gods.
I can see the deceived to a point, if , If evil gods are even capable of granting a paladin's powers, and the paladin never knew the true name of his god or anything about his true nature, maybe, but really I don't see that making it past level 3 or 4 at best.
If they are legal then so would be NE clerics of Sarenrae to be blunt. I have not read the article as I do not own it, however a paladin could not worship an evil god and stay LG.
It really is that simple
Your point right there was a little silly.
1. I don't own it.
2. I haven't read it.
3. It's wrong.
See what I'm saying?
If they are legal then so would be NE clerics of Sarenrae to be blunt. I have not read the article as I do not own it, however a paladin could not worship an evil god and stay LG.
It really is that simple
Your point right there was a little silly.
1. I don't own it.
2. I haven't read it.
3. It's wrong.See what I'm saying?
I covered why it is wrong, you auto fall if you worship your god or help spread his worship as you are spreading evil. It's in the paladins code.
Setting and core rules are not the same. Setting always over rules core rules. Clerics in golarion must have a god, paladins do not need one, however if they have one then the god grants the power not some kind of "good pool"
If you choose to have a god, your gonna need to be within one step or there is little point to saying "I am a paladin of x" as your not his paladin, you don't spread his faith or believe in his teachings.
Everyone has a god or most do in golarion as they know what happens when they die if they do not, ya worship gods whose ideals you believe in and whose teachings hit home. So yeah one step is just common sense as ya don't have much in common with a CG god other then..well he's good. I don't believe in 90% of his teachings but hey he's good right? a CG god is a far from what you believe as a LE god is.
What a hideous fallacy.
I thought Paizo was trying to get away from "Lawful Stupid". Lawful is inherently secondary to the good part of paladin-hood. No other class is as restrictive or potentially damaging to a party as a whole then a Paladin.
Your argument that a cleric is a divine warrior completely invalidates the purpose of the paladin class... if that's how you feel about it, why even play with a paladin anyway?No one should play a "Lawful Stupid" character ever.
Paladins are Lawful Good. Not Good with lawful tendencies. Not Lawful with good tendencies.
Paladins are pinnacles of GOOD. They happen to be lawful. They are supposed to be the representation of goodness, kindness, charity, and compassion. If the Lawful was as/more important it would be smite chaos, but its not, its smite evil .
I covered why it is wrong, you auto fall if you worship your god or help spread his worship as you are spreading evil. It's in the paladins code.If they are legal then so would be NE clerics of Sarenrae to be blunt. I have not read the article as I do not own it, however a paladin could not worship an evil god and stay LG.
It really is that simple
Your point right there was a little silly.
1. I don't own it.
2. I haven't read it.
3. It's wrong.See what I'm saying?
Unfortunately its also in...
an...official....
paizo....
product!
Making it legal. Enjoy your paradox.
Even James has said if he had saw it, the thing would have never saw print. To me that means " we fraked up". It is not the first time a mistake has saw print.
You can agree or disagree, it does not matter , the code pretty much prevents you from worshiping an evil god.
Day one, I pray to my god...sorry you fall as you are helping to spread evil.
Even James has said if he had saw it, the thing would have never saw print. To me that means " we fraked up". It is not the first time a mistake has saw print.
You can agree or disagree, it does not matter , the code pretty much prevents you from worshiping an evil god.
Day one, I pray to my god...sorry you fall as you are helping to spread evil.
Day one....
you read the article.
Day two...
you refute the article.
...or day 1.5 where you don't read the article, read the rationale. or the further ruling where he said he was ok with it.
How do magnets work?
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It's a safe bet the one step rule for paladins will most likely be in the new setting book. James has said a few times none was included because no one thought they had to be, it's clear you can't go to far from your god and still worship that god.
As for the LG paladin serving Asmodeous articles, I think of that as being a mistake. After all it's silly you can't be a paladin of a CG god, yet they kinda oked an evil god, damned silly. I just fail to see how any LG person can have enough faith and be devot to an evil god to gain power and stay LG.
If they could then you should have LG clerics of LE gods as well.{Which makes as much sense if not more then LG paladins of an evil god}
Hah! I do think it's hillarious that the article pretty much uses all the arguments I made in that 20 page thread lol, granted I also used other arguments, I just think its funny that I make the argument, you disagree, the book officially backs me up, you call it a mistake lol.
the code does not back you up, if the article changed it cool, if it did not then yes it's a mistake.
If ya want non-LG paladins fine ,it's your game. However LG paladins can't worship evil gods without breaking the code.
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Well ill thought out or not, it made it through proof reading to the printer and that means its here, disregarding it isn't really an option.Now that we have anti-paladins it gets even funnier. So an anti-paladin and paladin of asmodeus walk into a bar...
Would not be the first mistake they made they ruled as non canon, even recently they put in godless clerics which have been ruled a mistake and they are not clerics but druids or adapts.
Just because something makes it though does not mean it is not a mistake. And as paladins are LG an nothing else, serving A LE god is then a mistake.
do you have a source for this?
do you have a source for this?
Well ill thought out or not, it made it through proof reading to the printer and that means its here, disregarding it isn't really an option.Now that we have anti-paladins it gets even funnier. So an anti-paladin and paladin of asmodeus walk into a bar...
Would not be the first mistake they made they ruled as non canon, even recently they put in godless clerics which have been ruled a mistake and they are not clerics but druids or adapts.
Just because something makes it though does not mean it is not a mistake. And as paladins are LG an nothing else, serving A LE god is then a mistake.
James stated the cleric thing on another thread , yes, Look back to bottom of page two on this thread he also says he would have pulled the evil paladins if he had saw them.
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the code does not back you up, if the article changed it cool, if it did not then yes it's a mistake.
If ya want non-LG paladins fine ,it's your game. However LG paladins can't worship evil gods without breaking the code.
except I never claimed I wanted non-LG paladins, and you never accept the possibility that you could be wrong.
I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
And I think James meant he was ok with no one bringing that article up, as he said he would have killed it if he had seen it. If I am wrong he will correct me at some point most likely.
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I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
And I think James meant he was ok with no one bringing that article up, as he said he would have killed it if he had seen it. If I am wrong he will correct me at some point most likely.
I think what he meant is that while his preference would be for it not to exist and he's uncomfortable with the idea, that he's still okay with it existing, and accepts that as a rule.
We'll see when he clarifies. In the meantime, I know what my next Pathfinder Society Character is going to be.
I don't think that is legal, this debate aside. As that article is not PFS approved so, I know I would not allow it at any table I ran for PFS.
I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
And I think James meant he was ok with no one bringing that article up, as he said he would have killed it if he had seen it. If I am wrong he will correct me at some point most likely.
Except you don't have to be evil, or promote evil to worship Asmodeus. You can be good and believe that there should be a strong government controlled by the strongest people. That weakness is a sin, and one should always strive to be strong. These are tenents of his faith that a good aligned person can follow. One does not have to agree with human sacrifices and taking what you can from those beneath you. You don't have to follow all of the tenents to be a worshiper.
No, but by worshiping him you are spreading his word, you may not agree with it ,but you are spreading his faith and there for spreading evil and harming innocents by your actions.
You knowingly endorse an evil god, knowing he will spread evil. Your actions allow evil to spread.That breaks your code.
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you'll have to forgive my lack of knowledge as there is no society in my area and I can't afford to start one. But is there a rule against it? if there's no rule against it and I'm holding a pathfinder book that says it's okay, I'd be pretty pissed that a DM said no.
If there's a PFS rule that states it then that's one thing, but if not then that's a DM who is ignoring the setting he's supposed to represent because he's on a power trip and thinks HE knows better than the people who write for the setting.
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I don't think that is legal, this debate aside. As that article is not PFS approved so, I know I would not allow it at any table I ran for PFS.
I have to chime in here... so what? It's arguable whether or not it's legal in the game to be a Paladin of a god that is far away from their own alignment. The Asmodeus article aside, I can see it a number of ways. The Paladin is always LG, maybe he or she just likes certain aspects of the God and that's where he draws his power from. It's not like they get massive amounts of spells like a Cleric, they get a small number of them.
Mechanical issues aside, I cannot see any reason to ever disallow someone's character at a PFS table just because you don't like the idea that they're worshiping a god far away from their alignment. Why? Why is this an issue? They aren't mechanically any different from a Sarenrae or Erastil paladin just because they're, say, a Gorum paladin, so why does this matter? Why would you turn someone away just because they don't agree with your interpretation about a very muddy issue?
Unless Josh came right out and said that Paladins had to be within a certain alignment range to play, I don't think anyone should be disallowing a player for playing a concept that they 'don't like'. Disallow it in your home games, house rule it, whatever. There's no point in doing this for Society when they aren't harming anyone.
Remember, play play play!
*prediction that seeker will respond with 'you must agree and endorse all tenants of a faith to be a worshipper which makes you the same alignment as your god' argument*
No, you can be one step away, and not agree with all your gods teachings. But you do need to believe in enough of them to have true faith in your god.
If you put your faith in a god you know is evil, and do deeds in his name, your spread his faith. A faith you know is evil and will spread evil. You have spread evil and broken your code.
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I suspect that both Shelyn and Irori have a few paladins worshiping them as well
I can confirm at least one of your suspicions. There is a paladin of Shelyn in my home Curse of the Crimson Throne game.
Turns out a paladin with a glaive is pretty darn effective, especially once you start combining smite evil with reach.
Poor, poor vampires.
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I don't think that is legal, this debate aside. As that article is not PFS approved so, I know I would not allow it at any table I ran for PFS.I have to chime in here... so what? It's arguable whether or not it's legal in the game to be a Paladin of a god that is far away from their own alignment. The Asmodeous article aside, I can see it a number of ways. The Paladin is always LG, maybe he or she just likes certain aspects of the God and that's where he draws his power from. It's not like they get massive amounts of spells like a Cleric, they get a small number of them.
Mechanical issues aside, I cannot see any reason to ever disallow someone's character at a PFS table just because you don't like the idea that they're worshiping a god far away from their alignment. Why? Why is this an issue? They aren't mechanically any different from a Sarenrae or Erastil paladin just because they're, say, a Gorum paladin, so why does this matter? Why would you turn someone away just because they don't agree with your interpretation about a very muddy issue?
Unless Josh came right out and said that Paladins had to be within a certain alignment range to play, I don't think anyone should be disallowing a player for playing a concept that they 'don't like'. Disallow it in your home games, house rule it, whatever. There's no point in doing this for Society when they aren't harming anyone.
Remember, play play play!
+J
I would not allow it because I would be forced to strip him of his paladin hood in game for breaking his code. So best just not to allow him to play.
eh I would let him as long as he knows I would strip his powers as to me that's a violation of his code. I rather not deal with drama over b*&$*ing so he could play his fallen paladin, use a different PC or leave the table as that kind of thing is disruptive and unfair to the other players. But I would be upfront and clear about it.
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eh I would let him as long as he knows I would strip his powers as to me that's a violation of his code. I rather not deal with drama over b#@&@ing so he could play his fallen paladin, use a different PC or leave the table as that kind of thing is disruptive and unfair to the other players. But I would be upfront about it.
And I would hold up the article and ask if you could read, and then I would play fallen and if we wound up with a TPK because my paladin was dead weight I would say, "what can I say, the DM fell me without letting me actually try to play my character sorry guys". Hopefully I'd survive and at the very next table seek a redemption and play with a DM who's actually willing to go with what the setting says instead of his own personal hang ups.
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I would not allow it because I would be forced to strip him of his paladin hood in game for breaking his code. So best just not to allow him to play.
No, no you wouldn't. No one's forcing you. Josh isn't. The rules certainly aren't. That'd entirely be your own call to deny someone to play their character, and they really aren't even skirting any lines here. As long as they're acting Lawful Good, who cares if they appreciate Battle a little bit more than others and admire Gorum?
Forcing someone to lose their powers due to an alignment clash with their class in a Society game should *not* come up that often. They aren't (typically) your own players, and everyone is coming together to a Con or game store or whatever to have a good time. Unless they're acting disruptively or *really* obviously breaking their LG alignment, there is absolutely no need to make them shed their code in a Society game.
Just take it easy and let them have fun. This is one of those issues where, really, no one is getting hurt. It's not even like the Slavery thread or the Paladins in Hellknights thread. This is, for most, a purely flavor issue that probably won't even come up in a Society mission that much.
And I would say you broke you code and fell, and to the other players I would apologize about it, but you choose to play a pc you knew might be ruled fallen so the issue is on you. You choose to play the pc knowing full well the GM told you he would not allow it.
And if you kept acting like a child over it I would ask you to leave and flag you as disruptive to be honest.
The code is very well spelled out, if you choose to violate it and a GM gives you fair warming he thinks you violated it. You only have yourself to blame.
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And I would say you broke you code and fell, and to the other players I would apologize about it, but you choose to play a pc you knew might be ruled fallen so the issue is on you. You choose to play the pc knowing full well the GM told you he would not allow it.
And if you kept acting like a child over it I would ask you to leave and flag you as disruptive to be honest.
The code is very well spelled out, if you choose to violate it and a GM gives you fair warming he thinks you violated it. You only have yourself to blame.
The code is also very short and doesn't mention a *thing* about the deity.
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
What you're telling me is you could have a Paladin player in your Society game. For 3 hours he acts lawful, he acts good, he plays up an awesome Paladin. You are curious and, since it hasn't come up, ask him what Deity he worships. He mentions "Oh, Cayden Cailean, that's why I like to take a swig of beer every now and then." Your response is to have him lose his paladin powers because of that?
Sorry, but you'd be more of a child in my eyes then him. If someone is obviously acting non-lawful and non-good, fine, it's the GM's option to take away their powers and require an atonement. But if someone is still acting Lawful Good and completely within their code (which isn't that big, as seen above) then their desire to worship a god that happens to be more than one step away should be *of no consequence*.
No, no you wouldn't. No one's forcing you. Josh isn't. The rules certainly aren't. That'd entirely be your own call to deny someone to play their character, and they really aren't even skirting any lines here. As long as they're acting Lawful Good, who cares if they appreciate Battle a little bit more than others and admire Gorum?Forcing someone to lose their powers due to an alignment clash with their class in a Society game should *not* come up that often.
Agreed it would not come up often, but to me this is a clear case of it violating the written paladin code. He would be given heads up about it as I would not wish to be a dick and just take it away, however I would do so if he insisted on it. Just like I would make a paladin fall if he did other non paladin things, just as kill everything that moved.
If he disagreed he could go above my head, but I would not allow that pc without him falling as to me it clearly violates the rules.
And I would say you broke you code and fell, and to the other players I would apologize about it, but you choose to play a pc you knew might be ruled fallen so the issue is on you. You choose to play the pc knowing full well the GM told you he would not allow it.
And if you kept acting like a child over it I would ask you to leave and flag you as disruptive to be honest.
The code is very well spelled out, if you choose to violate it and a GM gives you fair warming he thinks you violated it. You only have yourself to blame.
The Paladin code is very well spelled out. Nowhere in that code does it say you cannot worship an evil god. In published materials, it says that Paladins can worship an evil god. Nothing in society play prevents players from worshiping evil gods. The player is not violating any rules except ones your making up.
What you're telling me is you could have a Paladin player in your Society game. For 3 hours he acts lawful, he acts good, he plays up an awesome Paladin. You are curious and, since it hasn't come up, ask him what Deity he worships. He mentions "Oh, Cayden Cailean, that's why I like to take a swig of beer every now and then." Your response is to have him lose his paladin powers because of that?
eh dude we are talking about him praising and giving thanks to an evil god. That does break the code, as by giving praise and thanks and doing deeds in the name of evil, you help spread evil.
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The question that needs to be answered is when does the paladin fall? From what it sounds like seeker, the moment you sit down and start the session, you'd look at the paladin and say 'you fall for following an Evil god'. That's not covered anywhere in the Society rules to my knowledge and is just your personal opinion of 'paladins can't follow Evil gods'. You don't give the player any chance to prove he can play that character without falling because you don't like it. That's very impartial refereeing.
eh dude we are talking about him praising and giving thanks to an evil god. That does break the code
What part?
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eh dude we are talking about him praising and giving thanks to an evil god. That does break the code, as by giving praise and thanks and doing deeds in the name of evil, you help spread evil.What you're telling me is you could have a Paladin player in your Society game. For 3 hours he acts lawful, he acts good, he plays up an awesome Paladin. You are curious and, since it hasn't come up, ask him what Deity he worships. He mentions "Oh, Cayden Cailean, that's why I like to take a swig of beer every now and then." Your response is to have him lose his paladin powers because of that?
... Cayden is CG. As for the 'praising and giving thanks' to an evil God like Asmodeus, so what? Maybe where he comes from Asmodeus is seen differently, more for his Lawful side then his Evil. Maybe the town he grew up in was a very orderly one where a lot of the evil devil worship from Asmdeous didn't occur, and he wanted to spread the virtues of the god that he grew up with.
Who cares if he is in for a rude awakening someday? Or is misguided? What matters is that the PLAYER acts Lawful and Good. Giving praises to an Evil god doesn't make the character evil if he's still doing Good acts in his name. It's just a name at that point.
And again, there's NOTHING in the book that forces you to do this. No hiding behind 'the rules make me nix his paladin powers'. They don't. Frankly, it upsets me when anyone says that they'll just automatically turn a potential Society player away, especially for a reason as dumb as this.
In the end, if they act Lawful and they act Good, let them stay a Paladin. If not, judge them then. Ignore whoever they worship, it's not like you really have to spend more than 4 hours with them, and unless they're trying to get away with blood sacrifice then it shouldn't be an issue.
The Paladin code is very well spelled out. Nowhere in that code does it say you cannot worship an evil god. In published materials, it says that Paladins can worship an evil god. Nothing in society play prevents players from worshiping evil gods. The player is not violating any rules except ones your making up.
Sigh
The paladins code limit you more then any other rule
*A paladin must be of lawful good alignment
*Respect legitimate authority,
*Act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
*Help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)
*punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
see the bold parts. If ya help spread evil, your not good. You do not help people to evil or choatic ends, you punish those who hurt or threaten innocents. Not worship them
By worshiping and spreading the word of an evil god you break 3 of the 5 listed parts of the code.
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eh I would let him as long as he knows I would strip his powers as to me that's a violation of his code. I rather not deal with drama over b!*@~ing so he could play his fallen paladin, use a different PC or leave the table as that kind of thing is disruptive and unfair to the other players. But I would be upfront and clear about it.
And I would hold up the article and ask if you could read, and then I would play fallen and if we wound up with a TPK because my paladin was dead weight I would say, "what can I say, the DM fell me without letting me actually try to play my character sorry guys". Hopefully I'd survive and at the very next table seek a redemption and play with a DM who's actually willing to go with what the setting says instead of his own personal hang ups.
TPKs are often the result of a restrictive DM and a stubborn, uncooperative player. But that's not really as fun for the group, in my experience. This is a cooperative game, yes?
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see the bold parts. If ya help spread evil, your not good. You do not help people to evil or choatic ends, you punish those who hurt or threaten innocents. Not worship themBy worshiping and spreading the word of an evil god you break 3 of the 5 listed parts of the code.
Okay, so by saying 'it is right that the strong govern the weak, to protect them and maintain an orderly society' you are spreading evil?
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Okay, so by saying 'it is right that the strong govern the weak, to protect them and maintain an orderly society' you are spreading evil?
see the bold parts. If ya help spread evil, your not good. You do not help people to evil or choatic ends, you punish those who hurt or threaten innocents. Not worship themBy worshiping and spreading the word of an evil god you break 3 of the 5 listed parts of the code.
No no, he's just saying that a Paladin must agree with and spread the word of every single part of a deity's message in order to gain power from them. Just like a Cleric. Who can be one step away from their deity. Who has to agree with every message. Because the world is black and white.
Sigh.
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Okay, so by saying 'it is right that the strong govern the weak, to protect them and maintain an orderly society' you are spreading evil?
see the bold parts. If ya help spread evil, your not good. You do not help people to evil or choatic ends, you punish those who hurt or threaten innocents. Not worship themBy worshiping and spreading the word of an evil god you break 3 of the 5 listed parts of the code.
No no, he's just saying that a Paladin must agree with and spread the word of every single part of a deity's message in order to gain power from them. Just like a Cleric. Who can be one step away from their deity. Who has to agree with every message. Because the world is black and white.
Sigh.
Oh don't worry. Seeker and I do this all the time. I never seriously expect us to change anything. It provides a nice point/counterpoint for those just following along tho.
eh I would let him as long as he knows I would strip his powers as to me that's a violation of his code. I rather not deal with drama over b#@&@ing so he could play his fallen paladin, use a different PC or leave the table as that kind of thing is disruptive and unfair to the other players. But I would be upfront about it.And I would hold up the article and ask if you could read, and then I would play fallen and if we wound up with a TPK because my paladin was dead weight I would say, "what can I say, the DM fell me without letting me actually try to play my character sorry guys". Hopefully I'd survive and at the very next table seek a redemption and play with a DM who's actually willing to go with what the setting says instead of his own personal hang ups.
+1 for you sir. Your overwhelming decency, ability to play well with others, and penchant for actual role play has garnered you this award.