After giving the cavlier oaths a run through I think they need a fair amount of work. I think they need to be standardized. They are too all over the place and vary too much in their power and difficulty to attain.
Oath of chastity can as someone brought up be lost due to combat with the opposite sex, and provides a very specific bonus (save bonus vs charm spells).
Oath of Protection is very difficult to pull off as part of an adventuring party, for a good bonus but seems to be an NPC bodyguard only bonus. PC's just wont get this bonus.
Oath of Loyalty is really easy to achieve as is oath of greed, but both are very specific bonuses as well that will only be useful sometimes.
Oath of vengeance is probably the hands down best as it is a bonus to attack rolls, and is relatively easy to attain. Im on a mission to stop goblin raiders oath of vengeance of goblins, i'll have the bonus half way through the first encounter of the day.
I would like these bonuses and challenges to be standardized in bonus and in attainability, rather then trying a juggling act of balancing how hard they are to attain, how long they last and how good the bonus is. It wont be as good flavorwise but it will do alot for actually tracking and using them in the game.
What does everyone else think?
With the caveat that we havn't seen the Cavalier in an actual module playtest yet (the guy with the character that got converted to a Cavalier is our current DM in the rotation):
I saw the same thing with the oaths. The bonuses aren't very big and several of them are WAY too easy to break.
Oath of Chastity = no contact whatsoever with a member of a gender you're attracted to? That's possibly the most restrictive interpretation of Chastity I've ever heard of. This one is all but unusable unless you're in the middle of nowhere and there's no chance of you fighting a female dragon, etc etc. Yes, that's right, you can be un-chaste by being bitten by a female dragon. Or lion. Or troll. Or mind flayer. Etc.
Oath of Protection = protectee can't take any damage at all? I'm sorry, that's utterly useless to an adventuring party. I have never once in my entire DMing/playing career seen an entire day go by where any single party member got away without taking any damage. On top of that, the Cavalier has to stay adjacent to his charge to get any bonus from this oath, which means either he's not going to be fighting, or his charge is going to be in big danger and he's going to lose his oath anyway.
Director of Games
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Of all the mechanics presented in these two classes, oaths are the ones that I am currently least comfortable with, for many of the reasons posted in this thread.
I am certainly open to suggestions here, but I am seriously considering streamlining them into a much more simple concept power. Ie, you pick a person, place, or thing to defend or destroy and get bonuses based on what you pick, as long as you keep the oath.
I am open to thoughts on this issue...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think the oaths could use a good streamlining. The cavalier already has the Orders to pick from; the variableness of the oaths just kind of muddies the issue. You might even consider rolling the oaths into the Orders? Dunno. I'll try to brainstorm it some more.
Actually, good idea! Roll the oaths into the various orders. Each order has it's own oath, and all the oaths use a more standard, balanced mechanism.
Of all the mechanics presented in these two classes, oaths are the ones that I am currently least comfortable with, for many of the reasons posted in this thread.
I am certainly open to suggestions here, but I am seriously considering streamlining them into a much more simple concept power. Ie, you pick a person, place, or thing to defend or destroy and get bonuses based on what you pick, as long as you keep the oath.
I am open to thoughts on this issue...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I was thinking of that.
I like the themes so i would like to figure out a way to keep them, but basically I think the bonuses should come down to.
+2 to a group of skills
+1 to attacks
+1 to a specific kind of save (Fort, Will or Reflex, NOT saves vs a specific class of effects)
+1 to AC
The bonuses should last a similar amount of time, Perhaps 1 hour per cavlier level rather then a flat amount of time?
All effects should be triggered by a specific action that can occur in a single event.
Oath of Protection: A cavalier takes an oath to protect a specific target. The cavalier fufills this oath by readying an action to take a hit for the target of that oath and does so succefully. If so the cavlier gains +1 to AC + 1 additional per 5 levels for 1hour per cavalier level
Oath of Vengeance: Keep it the same except make it 1 hour per cavalier
Oath of Loyalty: Keep this the same except make the bonus to will saves in general for 1 hour per cavalier level
Oath of Purity: The cavalier must make a successful fortitude save vs a curse, disease, drug or poison. The Cavalier gainst a +1 morale bonus on Fortitude saves for one hour per level
Oath of greed: If the cavalier gains an item of value of 1,000 gp per level (Without exchanging wealth for it) he reseaves a +2 morale bonus on Appraise, bluff, and sense motive skill checks for 1 hour per cavalier level, this bonus increases by +2 for every 5 cavalier levels.
You might even consider rolling the oaths into the Orders? Dunno. I'll try to brainstorm it some more.
I was looking back at this and I almost wonder whether this was the original intent and then the Oaths got split off and expanded.
Oath of Loyalty and the Order of the Cockatrice are obviously thematically linked. So are Oath of Greed and the Order of the Dragon, Oath of Protection and the Order of the Shield, and (more tenuously) Oath of Purity and the Order of the Star.
One point on the Oath of Justice that I think worth mentioning:
Frequently, if the PCs are bringing a criminal back to justice, this means that they are usually back in town to rest and resupply for a few days. Consequently, the bonus for completing this oath will often go to waste.
I wonder if it could be altered to delay the bonus until the next time the character has an encounter, then lasts for 24 hours after that.
One point on the Oath of Justice that I think worth mentioning:
Frequently, if the PCs are bringing a criminal back to justice, this means that they are usually back in town to rest and resupply for a few days. Consequently, the bonus for completing this oath will often go to waste.
I wonder if it could be altered to delay the bonus until the next time the character has an encounter, then lasts for 24 hours after that.
Actually, I was thinking about letting the cavalier have his bonus at all time until he breaks the oath, at which case he needs to redeem (action? time?) to gain his bonus back.
'findel
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I think the idea of the Oath is better than the implementation is all.
Oath of Justice for example should be worded:
Oath of Chastity The cavalier swears to avoid temptations of the flesh. As long as he has sworn this oath, and avoided intimate contact (no hugging, kissing or sexual contact) with anyone. As long as he keeps this Oath active he gains a +1 morale bonus on Will Saves vs Enchantment (charm and compulsion effects) for every 24 hours it has been kept active. If the Cavalier declares he is ending this Oath voluntarily then he may not swear another oath for 24 hours, as he must consider the implications of his choice.
Why this is better but not broken: The act of swearing the oath gives the bonus. The bonus has no upper cap and could become ungodly, but an Oath of Chastity comes with a hefty penalty for failure too. He is still vulnerable to fear effects, illusion effects, necromantic effects etc. So he can't be mind-controlled, he still has to deal with his allies who CAN be. The timed increase also prevents the Cavalier from making the oath lightly, as this one has the least crunchy effect on the Cavalier's behaviour.
Oath of Justice: The cavalier swears to bring a specific individual or creature to justice, be it through capturing, or slaying him. Until completing this oath, the cavalier receives a +1 morale bonus to attacks rolls against that creature for 24 hours for every 5 levels the cavalier has gained. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 HD of the creature being brought to Justice. If he fails to bring the creature to justice within the time limit he takes a penalty to attack rolls for 24 hours equal to the bonus he would have gained.
Better Not Broken: He gains the bonus instantly and is put on a timer, forcing him to act in a decisive manner.
Oath of Greed: Perfect, but make it clear he needs to declare this oath at the beginning of the day, that way he can't just spontaneously swear it on seeing something shiny.
Oath of Loyalty: The cavalier swears to remain loyal to his allies and friends. When the cavalier makes this oath he selects a number of allies equal to 3 + Charisma modifier. Whenever he is adjacent to one of his chosen allies the Cavalier receives a +1 morale bonus to his AC as the proximity to his allies makes him feel invincible. This bonus increases for every 20 HD of allies he has sworn loyalty to.
Why this is better but not broken: If you change the oath of chastity to the above then Oath of Loyalty needs something special. The reason this gives the Cavalier a bonus to AC is because the Oath of protection will give a different bonus.
Oath of Protection: The cavalier vows to protect one individual and keep him from harm. When the cavalier makes this oath, he nominates one creature. If that creature remains above 0 HP they gain a +1 bonus to AC for every five levels the Cavalier has attained whenever the Cavalier remains within 5 feet of the chosen creature. If that creature is brought to 0 hp or less the Cavalier fails this oath and takes a penalty to AC equal to the bonus he would have provided for 24 hours.
Why this is better but not broken: It's easier to keep track of the bonus, makes more sense, and lasts longer. I can imagine a Cavalier swearing this to the wizard in the party and standing alongside him protecting him from a nearby mob of monsters.
Oath of Purity: The cavalier swears to remain pure in both body and soul. He must avoid imbibing alcohol, drugs, must not gamble, nor use the coup de grace action. He gains a +1 bonus on saving throws against curses, diseases and poisons this bonus increases by +1 every 24 hours the Cavalier keeps this oath active. If the cavalier fails at this oath by imbibing alcohol or drugs, gambling or using the coup de grace action, he instead takes a penalty on the above saves equal to the bonus he had for 24 hours.
Why this is better but not broken: Again he can keep track of the bonus instantly, there is a penalty for failing the oath and while it's possible to gain ungodly high saves vs alcohol, drugs and poisons remember that he never gains immunity to such things (rolling a 1 still fails), and he can still be beaten down or have a spell take him down.
Oath of Vengeance: The cavalier swears to slay all creatures of a specific kind or working for a specific organisation. If he takes any damage from a creature of the type he has sworn vengeance against he gains a +1 bonus to damage against creatures of that type. This bonus increases by +1 for every 24 hours he maintains this Oath (to a maximum of his +1 per five cavalier levels). This bonus decreases by -1 every 24 the cavalier does not defeat such a foe (by either slaying them, or knocking them unconscious).
Better not Broken: To maintain the Oath of Vengeance the Cavalier must seek out his hated foes, stoking the fires of his vengeance.
Anyway this is my take on the Oath Mechanic, swearing the oath should help with fulfilling the oath nes pas? While failing the oath comes with dire penalties.
Stuff I'd like to see: More oaths based on virtues and vices. We could see an Oath of Gluttony (consume and eat x amount every day, gain a bonus to HP), an Oath of Generosity (give away 1,000 gp worth of goods or gold, gain a +1 bonus on Diplomacy, Appraise, Sense Motive), an Oath of Pride (swear to defeat someone more powerful than you without direct aid of an ally for a bonus to all saves), an Oath of Honesty (do not lie, or feint in combat and gain a bonus to reflex saves and sense motive checks as your senses sharpen to pick up falsehood and danger).
With the caveat that we havn't seen the Cavalier in an actual module playtest yet (the guy with the character that got converted to a Cavalier is our current DM in the rotation):
I saw the same thing with the oaths. The bonuses aren't very big and several of them are WAY too easy to break.
Oath of Chastity = no contact whatsoever with a member of a gender you're attracted to? That's possibly the most restrictive interpretation of Chastity I've ever heard of. This one is all but unusable unless you're in the middle of nowhere and there's no chance of you fighting a female dragon, etc etc. Yes, that's right, you can be un-chaste by being bitten by a female dragon. Or lion. Or troll. Or mind flayer. Etc.
Oath of Protection = protectee can't take any damage at all? I'm sorry, that's utterly useless to an adventuring party. I have never once in my entire DMing/playing career seen an entire day go by where any single party member got away without taking any damage. On top of that, the Cavalier has to stay adjacent to his charge to get any bonus from this oath, which means either he's not going to be fighting, or his charge is going to be in big danger and he's going to lose his oath anyway.
I don't see much of a point in having multiple Oaths if the morale bonus doesn't stack. Perhaps changing these to different types of bonuses would be more benefit.
Oath of Justice overlaps too much with Oath of Vengeance in my opinion. They both can accomplish the same thing.
I definitely agree on the Oath of Protection. I have had plenty of days where my players have never been damaged, but this brings up another question. Is casting a non-damaging spell on that party member considered to be damage? If it is not, this puts the cavalier in an incredibly restrictive position. What if the party member is charmed and the cavalier has to defend himself against his party member?
What about combat maneuvers? Grappling does no damage.
Hello:
These are some of the points that I believe need clarifying/amended to the cavalier’s special abilities:
Mount:
Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount, such as a boar, camel, dog, horse, pony, or wolf (depending on his size and level, as such, boars and dogs are not suitable until 4th level). A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability. A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves. Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level.
Proposed Amendment:
Mount (Ex) A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as her effective druid level. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium cavalier) or a pony (for a Small cavalier), although more exotic mounts, such as a bear, boar, camel, or dog are also suitable, depending on his size and level. For example, boars and dogs are not suitable until 4th level. Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion’s Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the cavalier advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion.
A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability. Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level.
The sentence "A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves." should be eliminated because there is no logical clausal relationship to the previous sentence or paragraph, that is, it is a Non sequitur.
The proposed changes put the cavalier's mount ability on par with the druid's, paladin's, and ranger's special abilities by standardizing the terminology dealing with animal companions/mounts.
In the Oaths section, page 3,
" Whenever the cavalier completes an oath, he can swear another or he can keep his existing oath, if it is still applicable. A cavalier can abandon an oath, but he cannot swear a new oath to replace the abandoned oath for at least 24 hours."
The proposed change should be:
Whenever the cavalier completes an oath, he can swear another or he can keep his existing oath, if it is still applicable. A cavalier can withdraw an oath, but he cannot swear a new oath to replace the withdrawn oath for at least 24 hours.
I would not believe a cavalier would "abandon" an oath, he would withdraw it or revoke it in favor of a new one.
Same section, "Some oaths require the cavalier to keep the oath to maintain the bonus and must be abandoned to select a different oath."
Should be amended to:
Some oaths require the cavalier to keep the oath in order to maintain the bonus while other oaths must be withdrawn (revoked) to select a different oath.
In the Order of the Lion, page 6:
"A cavalier who belongs to this order has pledged himself to a sovereign, be it a king, queen, or even the local warlord." (Incorrect colon usage, needs a semi-colon after "sovereign").
Should be amended to:
A cavalier who belongs to this order has pledged himself to a sovereign; be it a king, queen, or even the local warlord.
In the Order of the Star, page 7
For the Faith (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can call upon his faith to bolster himself in combat. As a free action, the cavalier can call out the name of his deity, granting him a morale bonus on attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier for 1 round.
Should be amended to:
For the Faith (Ex): At 8th level, the cavalier can call upon his faith to bolster himself in combat. As a free action, the cavalier can invoke the name of his deity, granting him a morale bonus on attack rolls equal to his Charisma modifier for 1 round.
I have only really checked out the cavalier; I believe its a great class with a lot of potential. the proposed amendments could help clarify some points, especially with the mount special ability.
I hope this helps.
I have posted this on the C/O messageboard, but found it appropriate to reproduce it here. BTW, Pathfinder ROCKS!!!
I am certainly open to suggestions here, but I am seriously considering streamlining them into a much more simple concept power. Ie, you pick a person, place, or thing to defend or destroy and get bonuses based on what you pick, as long as you keep the oath.
In other words they almosy become a favored enemy type of thing. Not a bad idea, but I like the current way better as long as its modified
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I really like the idea of oaths but as I have mentioned in other threads I really don't like how they are currently done.
personally i think their should be two kinds of oaths, both fit the idea of a cav well.
life oaths, these are oaths you swear in your life to do your whole life for a minor bonus. If you ever break your oath you lose the bonus and have to have some form of attonment to be able to take it again. But i think life changing things could allow a Cav to switch life oaths.
task oaths, these are oaths the cav swears to do in short order. Something easily done with in a month or two at most. These would give bigger bonuses. But on on the subject of the oath. if a cav swears to protect a princess from harm then he would have bonuses any time he is doing that.
I would limit it to no more than one task oath at a time and the bonuses last as long as the Cav is doing the task oath.
i just dislike the have to do something first and then get a bonus type oath. Not to mention the whole. I am chaste for 24 hours, get a bonus. now can go to a cat house and bed all the girls there. That just makes no sense to me. Just as a example.
i just dislike the have to do something first and then get a bonus type oath. Not to mention the whole. I am chaste for 24 hours, get a bonus. now can go to a cat house and bed all the girls there. That just makes no sense to me. Just as a example.
I agree with this. If oaths end up with a maintenance or life aspect to them (done over time) then if one breaks the oath (even after completing the required duration) there should be either a form of attonment, or a duration in which it cannot be used again. Then again the chastity oath/brothel cycle makes as much sense as Mardi Gras does in real life. Something to consider I guess.