I admittedly haven't read the full thread, but this jumped out at me. While a homeschooled student may perform better academically, where do they stand socially? Public and private schools unofficially teach interpersonal skills, a respect for diversity, and allow kids to do what they're supposed to do: grow up. Even if a homeschooler goes out of their way to attempt to do this, the fact remains that it will be damn-near impossible to "expose" their children to 30 kids per class 5 times/day.I hope you're only considering this if you're qualified. Most home-schooled kids I've worked with (5 of 7) are considerably behind academically.You must be working with the oddballs. The average homeschooled kid is ahead of the average population academically. In West Virginia, for some reason, in fact it is the law that for a kid to remain in homeschooling, they have to test higher than average.
My own kids, who have never set foot in public schools, all scored above average last year when we finally had them tested.
I have known dozens of home schooled kids and I have found them to be far better socialized than public school kids.
I hear this socialization argument against home school frequently and I have found it to be completely with out merit in my experience.
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I have known dozens of home schooled kids and I have found them to be far better socialized than public school...
In my experience, the ones that i have met have been socially akward (sp?) around children their own age...they seem normal to adults because they act like adults and not kids...part of growing up is being a kid IMO.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I admittedly haven't read the full thread, but this jumped out at me. While a homeschooled student may perform better academically, where do they stand socially? Public and private schools unofficially teach interpersonal skills, a respect for diversity, and allow kids to do what they're supposed to do: grow up. Even if a homeschooler goes out of their way to attempt to do this, the fact remains that it will be damn-near impossible to "expose" their children to 30 kids per class 5 times/day.
Public and private schools officially teach interpersonal skills, a respect for diversity, and allow kids to do what they're supposed to do: grow up. Unofficially, they teach normative behaviour through turning a blind eye to physical and verbal abuse that goes on between children and that regularly undermines children's self-esteem.
Sorry, but I'll wait for some facts on this one before I consider concerns about socialization to be a strike against homeschooling.
I'd quote Tarren Dei in the entirety right here and just say "this," but that's just so crude. Apt, but crude.
These all sound like great ways to help your students gain a deeper level of understanding than many lectures promote. The students who enjoyed your lectures would probably make better teachers because of this experience. How many students in these lectures?
The univeristy where I teach now has about 6000 students total. The students in my freshman pre-nursing classes number anywhere from 20-50, with the average being around 30. Smaller classes definitely help. In a lab I teach, I have several weak students, but only seven total. They all show up, work fairly hard adn make an effort. With so few, I can help them all and probe them with leading questions. Even if their skills are weak, I think I can most of them to really start thinking about what's going on in that lab.
The university where I observed so much of the poor performance was much larger, serving ~30,000 students, though the education classes also generally numbered 30-40 students.
My main goal in teaching is not just to cover the basics of chemistry, but to instill a sense of awareness in students, so that they can see pieces and realize there is abigger picture that they can piece together. Many don't want to make that effort, but the ones that do seem to perform well in all courses. That's a completely unscientific observation since better students may just be better sutudents, but I like to think I am getting some to think outside of just getting a certain grade.
As far as home-schooling and social skills, I think that is a canard played too often. I believe there is a set of home-schooled students (mainly the ones with zealots for parents) who do have stunted skills, but only because their parents purposely hide many aspects of the world from them.
For students that are responsibly educated at home, I agree with Xpltvdeleted, Tarren Dei and shinmizu - they turn out fine, sometimes better than public students and relate to adults better than their peers. Peer-to-peer social skills can be learned, even later in life (I am living proof), so long as children learn to relate to other people (even if they are initially awkward around other kids.
I definitely believe kids should be allowed to be kids, and have fun (even if it's silly or "childish"), and that playing like a kid can be channeled into good learning experiences. I think one of the reasons I relate to my son as well as I do is that I try to keep that child's mind, adn look at the world with the wonderment of a child (and then learn from those observations and the wisdom gained by experience).
jumping back into the post here since homeschooling is the issue.
Did anybody else hear about the german couple that were granted asylum here in the US for home schooling which is illegal in germany.
They came here LEGALLY seeking religious freedom, thats the kind of immegration I can totally support.
I dont know how to link the article but it was fairly recent so some one with better pc skills than I have can probably find it and link to it.
I'm just amazed that A) home schooling is illegal? B) because of the couples religious beliefs they were persecuted in a civilized european country.
No matter what things like this definatly make me glad I am an american.
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Public and private schools officially teach interpersonal skills, a respect for diversity, and allow kids to do what they're supposed to do: grow up. Unofficially, they teach normative behaviour through turning a blind eye to physical and verbal abuse that goes on between children and that regularly undermines children's self-esteem.
Sorry, but I'll wait for some facts on this one before I consider concerns about socialization to be a strike against homeschooling.
Even if you don't consider socialization a strike against homeschooling, how do you reconcile the fact that, when these children become young adults and go to college they will go from having the sole attention of their teacher to being thrown into classes that number in the hundreds. Do you honestly believe that homeschooling prepares these kids for public education settings?
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jumping back into the post here since homeschooling is the issue.
Did anybody else hear about the german couple that were granted asylum here in the US for home schooling which is illegal in germany.
They came here LEGALLY seeking religious freedom, thats the kind of immegration I can totally support.
I dont know how to link the article but it was fairly recent so some one with better pc skills than I have can probably find it and link to it.
I'm just amazed that A) home schooling is illegal? B) because of the couples religious beliefs they were persecuted in a civilized european country.No matter what things like this definatly make me glad I am an american.
It says nothing about them being persecuted because they are christian. They were "persecuted" because they broke the law. I don't believe that marijuana should be illegal, but it is. If I get caught with weed (which is against the law just as homeschooling is in Germany) am i being persecuted and should i seek asylum in the Netherlands?
Their religious preference has no bearing on the situation other than trying to sensationalize another mundane story to sell copies.
Even if you don't consider socialization a strike against homeschooling, how do you reconcile the fact that, when these children become young adults and go to college they will go from having the sole attention of their teacher to being thrown into classes that number in the hundreds. Do you honestly believe that homeschooling prepares these kids for public education settings?Public and private schools officially teach interpersonal skills, a respect for diversity, and allow kids to do what they're supposed to do: grow up. Unofficially, they teach normative behaviour through turning a blind eye to physical and verbal abuse that goes on between children and that regularly undermines children's self-esteem.
Sorry, but I'll wait for some facts on this one before I consider concerns about socialization to be a strike against homeschooling.
Actually many of the homeschooled kids I know finish high school early and take a couple of years at a community college before moving out and going to a four year college. As a general rule, they do quite well. Socially as well as academically.
jumping back into the post here since homeschooling is the issue.
Did anybody else hear about the german couple that were granted asylum here in the US for home schooling which is illegal in germany.
They came here LEGALLY seeking religious freedom, thats the kind of immegration I can totally support.
I dont know how to link the article but it was fairly recent so some one with better pc skills than I have can probably find it and link to it.
I'm just amazed that A) home schooling is illegal? B) because of the couples religious beliefs they were persecuted in a civilized european country.No matter what things like this definatly make me glad I am an american.
It says nothing about them being persecuted because they are christian. They were "persecuted" because they broke the law. I don't believe that marijuana should be illegal, but it is. If I get caught with weed (which is against the law just as homeschooling is in Germany) am i being persecuted and should i seek asylum in the Netherlands?
Their religious preference has no bearing on the situation other than trying to sensationalize another mundane story to sell copies.
I'm not sure it rises to religious persecution per se, and GTA isn't the state the I know of, but I found this quote interesting.
"Concerns that homeschooling could lead to insularity - or worse, as Kraus puts it, "could help foster the development of a sect" - are shaping policy debates in European countries."
In the US if one uses pot or peyote for religious reasons then there is precedent for that behavior being protected under the first amendment. Of course I would also prefer that adults be allowed to do with their bodies as they please.
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I'm not sure it rises to religious persecution per se, and GTA isn't the state the I know of, but I found this quote interesting.
"Concerns that homeschooling could lead to insularity - or worse, as Kraus puts it, "could help foster the development of a sect" - are shaping policy debates in European countries."
In the US if one uses pot or peyote for religious reasons then there is precedent for that behavior being protected under the first amendment. Of course I would also prefer that adults be allowed to do with their bodies as they please.
"If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it" - some guy other than me.
Germany has a pretty bad history of "sects" (accuse me of godwining if you want), and they take ALOT of measures to ensure that they don't have anymore "sects." I think that's understandable given their history and I don't think that's religious persecution IMO.
EDIT: as to the last part of your post, as do i...but i was just using that to draw a comparison.
jumping back into the post here since homeschooling is the issue.
Did anybody else hear about the german couple that were granted asylum here in the US for home schooling which is illegal in germany.
They came here LEGALLY seeking religious freedom, thats the kind of immegration I can totally support.
I dont know how to link the article but it was fairly recent so some one with better pc skills than I have can probably find it and link to it.
I'm just amazed that A) home schooling is illegal? B) because of the couples religious beliefs they were persecuted in a civilized european country.No matter what things like this definatly make me glad I am an american.
It says nothing about them being persecuted because they are christian. They were "persecuted" because they broke the law. I don't believe that marijuana should be illegal, but it is. If I get caught with weed (which is against the law just as homeschooling is in Germany) am i being persecuted and should i seek asylum in the Netherlands?
Their religious preference has no bearing on the situation other than trying to sensationalize another mundane story to sell copies.
I can see your point and it is a very valid one. I still think of this as somewhat of a religious issue simply because the parents dont want there kids brought up a certain way and the "state" says otherwise.
I again fall back to the example of my friends choseing to home school because their daughter was being bullied by the other girls in school. Plus the fact that she is a pagan and was repeatedly harrased because of it made home school a much better option for them.
I think germany's law is unfair and as far as them worrying about "sects" in there country, we have the same problem here and we allow homeschooling so I fail to see their overly concerned argument there.
Germany has a pretty bad history of "sects" (accuse me of godwining if you want)
It's OK, references to Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation don't invoke Godwin's Law. :)
Even if you don't consider socialization a strike against homeschooling, how do you reconcile the fact that, when these children become young adults and go to college they will go from having the sole attention of their teacher to being thrown into classes that number in the hundreds. Do you honestly believe that homeschooling prepares these kids for public education settings?
I am assuming your college experience (like mine) was at a major university (mine had ~30,000 students). However, even at a huge university, as an honors freshmen, I had a choice of classes where my general requirements classes numbered 15-30 tops, when 60-100 was more typical.
If that is too many, there are hundreds of adequate to excellent small colleges out there. I was recruited to a college that had a student body of less than 100. Traveling through Pennsylvania one summer, I remarked that there must be a law that every town of 10,000+ people apparently must have its own university. My first professor-y position was at a college with an enrollment of ~1500 students, where my class size averaged six. There are plenty of opportunites for continued individual/small group attention.
My main problem with home-schooling is that those who responsibly educate their children are often lumped in with the zealots who try to control what their children will become.
I'm not sure it rises to religious persecution per se, and GTA isn't the state the I know of, but I found this quote interesting.
"Concerns that homeschooling could lead to insularity - or worse, as Kraus puts it, "could help foster the development of a sect" - are shaping policy debates in European countries."
In the US if one uses pot or peyote for religious reasons then there is precedent for that behavior being protected under the first amendment. Of course I would also prefer that adults be allowed to do with their bodies as they please.
"If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it" - some guy other than me.
Germany has a pretty bad history of "sects" (accuse me of godwining if you want), and they take ALOT of measures to ensure that they don't have anymore "sects." I think that's understandable given their history and I don't think that's religious persecution IMO.
EDIT: as to the last part of your post, as do i...but i was just using that to draw a comparison.
I can understand the historical sensitivity in the abstract, but I cannot accept what I see as state political and religious intolerance in terms of banning political expression (national socialism, however odious I may find it) and religious expression (home schooling in this case).
I think germany's law is unfair and as far as them worrying about "sects" in there country, we have the same problem here and we allow homeschooling so I fail to see their overly concerned argument there.
It's fair in the sense that everyone, in Germany, deals with the same expectations. I'd only say it's unfair in comparison to a system that's a bit more flexible, like here in the US.
But I think you're really making light of the German concerns. While it's all increasingly distant history, I think they pretty much owe it to the rest of us to be highly concerned about centrifugal social forces.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I think germany's law is unfair and as far as them worrying about "sects" in there country, we have the same problem here and we allow homeschooling so I fail to see their overly concerned argument there.It's fair in the sense that everyone, in Germany, deals with the same expectations. I'd only say it's unfair in comparison to a system that's a bit more flexible, like here in the US.
But I think you're really making light of the German concerns. While it's all increasingly distant history, I think they pretty much owe it to the rest of us to be highly concerned about centrifugal social forces.
I don't understand the argument.
Insisting that all students be educated in schools allows the state access to children's minds supports the spread of nationalist ideologies. Public schools have always been about building nations and imparting a sense of nationalism. That's one of their primary roles and purposes and its one of the reason that alternatives (such as homeschooling) are so threatening to some people.
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I think germany's law is unfair and as far as them worrying about "sects" in there country, we have the same problem here and we allow homeschooling so I fail to see their overly concerned argument there.It's fair in the sense that everyone, in Germany, deals with the same expectations. I'd only say it's unfair in comparison to a system that's a bit more flexible, like here in the US.
But I think you're really making light of the German concerns. While it's all increasingly distant history, I think they pretty much owe it to the rest of us to be highly concerned about centrifugal social forces.
I don't understand the argument.
Insisting that all students be educated in schools allows the state access to children's minds supports the spread of nationalist ideologies. Public schools have always been about building nations and imparting a sense of nationalism. That's one of their primary roles and purposes and its one of the reason that alternatives (such as homeschooling) are so threatening to some people.
Yeah. If you study the rise of public schools they were often promoted as means of shaping children into "good citizens." Homeschooling does almost the opposite of what seems to be the concern. It fractures any central ideology and allows for a greater variety of lifestyles to be promoted.
In our own homeschooling group (OVCHE - Ohio Valley Christian Home Educators) we have some things in common among the different families but one would be mistaken if they thought this translated into any "centrifugal force." We have some families very big into organic foods. Others are heavily into music and the arts. Mine is big into gaming and books. Several are highly distrustful of the state when it comes to maintaining our rights and freedoms, others less so. Even religiously we represent a fairly broad swathe. We have Catholics, Baptists, 7th day adventists, Jewish-christians, Non-denominationals, etc. There is no unifier except we all homeschool and we mostly have a certain level of ethics and morality we expect from ourselves and others around us.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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We have some families very big into organic foods. Others are heavily into music and the arts. Mine is big into gaming and books. Several are highly distrustful of the state when it comes to maintaining our rights and freedoms, others less so. Even religiously we represent a fairly broad swathe. We have Catholics, Baptists, 7th day adventists, Jewish-christians,...
Religiously, that sounds more diverse than my son's current classroom in which he is the only non-Catholic.
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I have known dozens of home schooled kids and I have found them to be far better socialized than public school...In my experience, the ones that i have met have been socially akward (sp?) around children their own age...they seem normal to adults because they act like adults and not kids...part of growing up is being a kid IMO.
I have never understood the mentality that equates being a kid with being rude. I hope that is not what you are suggesting. o.O
Homeschooling kids are, on average, less peer adjusted (peers meaning a kid exactly their own age) than their public school counterparts. But how many times, in your job, do you interact with someone who was born in the exact same year as you were?
Homeschool children do have, as a tendency, greater exposure to a wider variety of ages and have, in the few studies I have read of, shown greater ability to relate to age groups besides their own, than their public school counterparts. I know if I had been given a choice between learning better social skills with only say 8% of the population (my age group) or learning better skills with the other 92% of the population, which one I would have thought to be the better choice to prepare me for life. :)
As for not allowing homeschoolers to be kids, anecdotally, I know of no families where the homeschool children do not run around, play, and act like children. True, I have tried to teach my children not to talk too much, not to run in the house, not to chew with their mouth open and not to chew gum in public, but I view the teaching of manners as good parenting, not the oppression of young minds.
Regarding some homeschool children having poor social skills. In our group I know of one girl who does have very poor skills. At the age of fourteen she is still acting like she is seven or eight. Of course she has severe mental handicaps and that is the reason she is being homeschooled. Some parents do keep their kids out of public school for exactly that reason. Their children have natural problems that make large scale public interaction more of a hindrance than a help to the educational process. Even with that, the majority of home-schooled students I have met are rather well mannered.
And as for college, I have never heard of any homeschooling families I know who have had difficulty making the transition. If you learn how to learn, you can generally do well in most environments, IMO. I see my job, as an educator of my children, to instill a desire to learn in them. What they learn with me is really secondary. If they learn how to learn and they want to learn, I know they will continue to improve their minds long after they have left my nest and the paltry little I can teach them.
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I am assuming your college experience (like mine) was at a major university (mine had ~30,000 students). However, even at a huge university, as an honors freshmen, I had a choice of classes where my general requirements classes numbered 15-30 tops, when 60-100 was more typical.
If that is too many, there are hundreds of adequate to excellent small colleges out there. I was recruited to a college that had a student body of less than 100. Traveling through Pennsylvania one summer, I remarked that there must be a law that every town of 10,000+ people apparently must have its own university. My first professor-y position was at a college with an enrollment of ~1500 students, where my class size averaged six. There are plenty of opportunites for continued individual/small group attention.
My main problem with home-schooling is that those who responsibly educate their children are often lumped in with the zealots who try to control what their children will become.
Two things...as to the college size you are correct. My first calc class was over 400 students. My professor was from a soviet block state and you couldn't understand him. Our mandatory "lab" was taught by another soviet block teachers aid who you also could not understand. I just think about a homeschooled student who has had nothing but one on one instruction (maybe more depending on # of siblings) and cringe. As i recall (and i could be wrong), most of the dropouts from college occur within the first year or two; it's generally only after the first two years that you have more latitude in selecting your classes and can opt for the smaller class sizes.
Now small, private colleges are an option, but they tend to be highly cost prohibitive.
As to the last sentence of you post: [rant]I personally think it's bad enough that parents are allowed to indoctrinate their children via religion starting at such young ages. There is no way that child (person) can make an objective decision if that is all they've known. If you were required to wait until your child was older, there would be alot less people in church nowadays imo.[/rant] As to homeschooling in this respect...let the parents homeschool, but they should be required to use the same textbooks that all other children are using. The last thing we need is more flat-earthers running around (i only say this because a majority of homeschoolers are religiously motivated). The science classroom is not the place to teach children that an invisible guy created everything less than 10,000 years ago when it has been proven that the earth is 6 billion years old.
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As to the last sentence of you post: [rant]I personally think it's bad enough that parents are allowed to indoctrinate their children via religion starting at such young ages. There is no way that child (person) can make an objective decision if that is all they've known. If you were required to wait until your child was older, there would be alot less people in church nowadays imo.[/rant] As to homeschooling in this respect...let the parents homeschool, but they should be required to use the same textbooks that all other children are using. The last thing we need is more flat-earthers running around (i only say this because a majority of homeschoolers are religiously motivated). The science classroom is not the place to teach children that an invisible guy created everything less than 10,000 years ago when it has been proven that the earth is 6 billion years old.
So yesterday I had my sons reading on Martin Luther, John Calvin and Zwengli, none of whom I totally agree with doctrinally. They have read science material written by both creationists and evolutionists. It is my belief that to be well educated it is necessary to know both sides of an argument. I take it you would prefer I didn't let them study religion until they are twenty, or twenty-two perhaps? What is, in your opinion, the proper age to expose a mind to the idea of a spiritual side of life.
Regarding the creationist debate, there is another thread for that, almost 6000 posts long. I will direct you there, on the off chance you have not yet seen it.
As for Textbooks...
Have you ever seen a standard literature textbook from the public schools. They were horrible when I was a kid and the newer ones I have seen have only gotten worse. The art tends to be poor. The stories are often uninteresting. The worst way to teach a kid to read is to take a variety of short snippets from longer works, mingle them with boring (yet socially proper) works of fiction and then toss in a bit of poetry. I am an avid reader and, when in grade school, I did always read my reading book all the way through but I never thought they were any good. My kids, I have to yell at them to stop reading (though I only rarely do so), because I taught them to read using books they would enjoy reading. Whenever my children try having conversations with public school children about the books they have read - the uniform answer is almost always, "I hate reading." Why should the law mandate that I use a book and a system that seems to instill a loathing for the activity I want to promote?
Edit: In spelling we use a book from the 1940's. Besides having some very hard words in it, it also is interesting in that it was written during WWII and has material reflective of that time. It makes for a neat exposure to history (and government propoganda at that time as taught in public schools).
And handwriting.... We teach handwriting to our kids, which is not apparently a subject taught much in most schools anymore. Should we be discouraged from this by law because its not "an approved textbook" that we are using?
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So yesterday I had my sons reading on Martin Luther, John Calvin and Zwengli, none of whom I totally agree with doctrinally. They have read science material written by both creationists and evolutionists. It is my belief that to be well educated it is necessary to know both sides of an argument. I take it you would prefer I didn't let them study religion until they are twenty, or twenty-two perhaps? What is, in your opinion, the proper age to expose a mind to the idea of a spiritual side of life.
Then i commend you on being one of the homeschoolers who actually gives their children a proper ("secular" if you will) education rather than a theology lesson every day.
Regarding the creationist debate, there is another thread for that, almost 6000 posts long. I will direct you there, on the off chance you have not yet seen it.
Yeah i digressed a bit, sorry.
As for Textbooks...
Have you ever seen a standard literature textbook from the public schools. They were horrible when I was a kid and the newer ones I have seen have only gotten worse. The art tends to be poor. The stories are often uninteresting. The worst way to teach a kid to read is to take a variety of short snippets from longer works, mingle them with boring (yet socially proper) works of fiction and then toss in a bit of poetry. I am an avid reader and, when in grade school, I did always read my reading book all the way through but I never thought they were any good. My kids, I have to yell at them to stop reading (though I only rarely do so), because I taught them to read using books they would enjoy reading. Whenever my children try having conversations with public school children about the books they have read - the uniform answer is almost always, "I hate reading." Why should the law mandate that I use a book and a system that seems to instill a loathing for the activity I want to promote?Edit: In spelling we use a book from the 1940's. Besides having some very hard words in it, it also is interesting in that it was written during WWII and has material reflective of that time. It makes for a neat exposure to history (and government propoganda at that time as taught in public schools).
And handwriting.... We teach handwriting to our kids, which is not apparently a subject taught much in most schools anymore. Should we be discouraged from this by law because its not "an approved textbook" that we are using?
I was a voracious reader as well, and I don't remember my textbooks being that bad...but i had decent teachers and the textbook wasn't the main focus of our classes so that could be it as well. The fact that your children love to read probably has more to do with how you raised them than the textbooks IMO. I developed my appreciation for reading when i was in germany and we had one english language channel...no TV so i was reading. Follow that up with a period where both my parents were in school and we were too broke for TV and I was a confirmed reader. I have a feeling (and correct me if I'm wrong) that TV is fairly limited in your house.
As to handwriting...things may have changed, but i remember learning handwriting when i was in school.
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Then i commend you on being one of the homeschoolers who actually gives their children a proper ("secular" if you will) education rather than a theology lesson every day.
We have fairly frequent theology lessons. :D But I still think being exposed to a variety of viewpoints is intellectually healthy.
As to handwriting...things may have changed, but i remember learning handwriting when i was in school.
Things have changed. It is no longer a priority in most schools (as far as I know) and if the articles I have read are to be believed there are schools that are dropping it almost completely as a subject. They simply don't have the time for it. Cursive writing in particular is what is meant here (not printing).
For what it is worth, I did come from a family of readers. But I still think that exposing children to enjoyable literature is more likely to instill a desire to read in them then forcing them to read stuff that has passed a variety of boards because it is culturally appropriate. My wife, who did not grow up in a family of readers agrees. She now enjoys reading, but only because I kept recommending she read books I thought she would enjoy.
TV is limited but not unknown in our house. I have instituted a rule this year that there are no electronic games for the children allowed through the school-week until friday evening.
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Have there been any studies or anything about how well homeschooled children do in corporate settings? The depressing thing I have discovered in all of my dealings with corporations is that corporate politics = playground politics. The best and the brightest don't move up; the most popular and best-networked do. It tends to all be about stroking egos and telling people what they want to hear. Does anybody have any experiences they can share about this?
I realize that not everyone works for corporations, and homeschooled people who go to work for small businesses or in skilled trades may not come up against the same issues, but I'm curious how this plays out, since so many people do work for large employers.
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Have there been any studies or anything about how well homeschooled children do in corporate settings? The depressing thing I have discovered in all of my dealings with corporations is that corporate politics = playground politics. The best and the brightest don't move up; the most popular and best-networked do. It tends to all be about stroking egos and telling people what they want to hear. Does anybody have any experiences they can share about this?
I realize that not everyone works for corporations, and homeschooled people who go to work for small businesses or in skilled trades may not come up against the same issues, but I'm curious how this plays out, since so many people do work for large employers.
I actually don't know of any. Studies about college attendance have been done that I am aware of, but I can't recall reading much about what might happen afterwards.
I suspect that homeschoolers might have a tendency to go the small business, self-employed route. Not necessarily because of scholastic training but because of the inclination to pursue more artistic or self-motivational pursuits. That is, homeschooling tends to allow an individual to pursue those things they find the most interesting. That's a hard habit to break.
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Have there been any studies or anything about how well homeschooled children do in corporate settings? The depressing thing I have discovered in all of my dealings with corporations is that corporate politics = playground politics. The best and the brightest don't move up; the most popular and best-networked do. It tends to all be about stroking egos and telling people what they want to hear. Does anybody have any experiences they can share about this?
I realize that not everyone works for corporations, and homeschooled people who go to work for small businesses or in skilled trades may not come up against the same issues, but I'm curious how this plays out, since so many people do work for large employers.
I work for a large corporation, and there is a great deal of truth to this statement from my point-of-view.
People who are best and telling the higher ups what they want to hear, and taking credit for other peoples' work tend to go far. Those with knowledge and expertise are patted on the head, and called "valuable members of the team."
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We have fairly frequent theology lessons. :D But I still think being exposed to a variety of viewpoints is intellectually healthy.
Are these outside of the normal school day? If not, what class are they replacing? Electives? History? Just curious.
And although i know it doesn't sound like it, but I wouldn't have a problem with religion being taught in public schools as an elective if[ every religion was available as a class. So that means wiccan, pagan, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and so on up to all 10,000 or so religions on the planet. Considering that this is not a possibility, i think it's just best that religion stay out of schooling.
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We have fairly frequent theology lessons. :D But I still think being exposed to a variety of viewpoints is intellectually healthy.Are these outside of the normal school day? If not, what class are they replacing? Electives? History? Just curious.
We homeschool. Our structure is a bit freeform, so I'm not sure your question is actually relevant. To help you understand let me summarize a normal school day: I have my sons begin with math (with one doing handwriting - he got held back in that subject from graduating), then assign them their science and history reading. When they finish this, they study their spelling and do their assigned bible reading. They also do a Language Arts assignment and perhaps some art (miniatures painting lately). Interspersed in this we at times have music classes, programing (Processing), Gym, Sports (Bowling and Iceskating most recently), and health discussion. If we want another subjet, we don't replace an "elective," we just work it in. My oldest boy has been finishing his work faster and thus has also had an increase in his chores (I've taught him to do laundry this year). When they finish their assignments, they can read, draw, or, sometimes, go play. They start their school somewhere between 8-9 in the morning and finish between 2 and 4 in the afternoon. I don't normally give them busy work just to say they are doing school work. I also don't hound them about studying for their tests; I just lecture them when they do poorly and tell them to make the time to study. I rarely do much lecturing on subjects as I am working on my own writing and such. Their studies are, at this point, mostly their responsibility. But I make sure they understand what they have read and can converse intelligently about it. As I already mentioned, they take tests on most of their subjects (Language arts being the exception) so we know what they grasped and what they did not.
As for theology - its not a subject in and of itself. But the discussion of theology finds its way into our science, handwriting (they copy bible verses) history, and bible lessons. I suppose it has also played a part in the study of art and music. We also discuss it at the table when we eat and even sometimes when we watch movies. We watched Twilight Samurai as a family last week and they had questions about the Japanese practice of ordering people to commit suicide. While the word theology never came up, the discussion is the result of differing cultural and theological worldviews.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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So yesterday I had my sons reading on Martin Luther, John Calvin and Zwengli, none of whom I totally agree with doctrinally. They have read science material written by both creationists and evolutionists. It is my belief that to be well educated it is necessary to know both sides of an argument. I take it you would prefer I didn't let them study religion until they are twenty, or twenty-two perhaps? What is, in your opinion, the proper age to expose a mind to the idea of a spiritual side of life.Then i commend you on being one of the homeschoolers who actually gives their children a proper ("secular" if you will) education rather than a theology lesson every day.
How many of your teachers in public school openly challenged the two dominant faiths of the modern age: consumerism and banal nationalism? You may be able to think of a handful but what would that be as a percentage of the number of teachers who have taught you?
I find my son comes home from school hearing the same view of the world he encounters on TV. Encouraging him to critique and challenge and question ends up being the job of the parent. Schools aren't designed for that.
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I find my son comes home from school hearing the same view of the world he encounters on TV. Encouraging him to critique and challenge and question ends up being the job of the parent. Schools aren't designed for that.
While I think my political and religious views are correct, and I naturally want my children to come to the same conclusions I did, indoctrination of any sort produces weak thinkers. I have no illusions about the fact that my kids are exposed primarily to my own worldveiw but my goal is not to simply tell them what they should believe but to teach them how to reach a conclusion. I don't hesitate to tell them what I think but I strive to make sure, when I can, to try and explain why others might have different veiws. Ideally, my teaching style is not to give an answer but to try and run through the process of obtaining an answer. Thats true in math, science, and theology. I think where a lot of study programs break down is they don't teach the process so much as they teach the result of the process. It is more useful to know why 2 and 2 makes 4 than it is to know the fact that 2 and 2 is four.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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While I think my political and religious views are correct, and I naturally want my children to come to the same conclusions I did, indoctrination of any sort produces weak thinkers. I have no illusions about the fact that my kids are exposed primarily to my own worldveiw but my goal is not to simply tell them what they should believe but to teach them how to reach a conclusion. I don't hesitate to tell them what I think but I strive to make sure, when I can, to try and explain why others might have different veiws. Ideally, my teaching style is not to give an answer but to try and run through the process of obtaining an answer. Thats true in math, science, and theology. I think where a lot of study programs break down is they don't teach the process so much as they teach the result of the process. It is more useful to know why 2 and 2 makes 4 than it is to know the fact that 2 and 2 is four.
I find my son comes home from school hearing the same view of the world he encounters on TV. Encouraging him to critique and challenge and question ends up being the job of the parent. Schools aren't designed for that.
I agree, and the official curriculum documents here in Quebec agree. My experience, however, is that schools and teachers tend to reproduce society as teachers are afraid of being actively political. I keep telling my students that avoiding questioning the status quo IS a political stance but they look at me funny when I say it.
We homeschool. Wicht, your bunch sounds a lot like our bunch. If y'all were in Louisiana, we'd need to schedule a get-together or two.
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We homeschool. Wicht, your bunch sounds a lot like our bunch. If y'all were in Louisiana, we'd need to schedule a get-together or two.
I'll keep that in mind if we move to Louisiana.
I keep hoping one of the other homeschooling families around these parts will take up gaming as a hobby. We've tried some to promote gaming. We held a games event a couple of months ago for OVCHE students where we introduced some games that we thought probably hadn't been played.
I demoed Ticket to Ride. My oldest son ran a miniature wargame using Splintered Light Minis and the Song of Blades rules. My other son GMed Toon RPG episodes(one I wrote and one from the rulebook after they finished the first and wanted more. One daughter demoed 10 days in U.S.A. and the other one did Kinderbunnies for some of the younger kids. It went over really well but I don't know if we made any converts. We'll have to do it again I think.
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Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
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Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
Or, the school district sees that course of action as the only way to avoid any litigation. Sad, but that's what you get from our lawsuit happy culture these days.
Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
Ninja'ed
I hope the school can be troubled to keep the girl safe.
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Or, the school district sees that course of action as the only way to avoid any litigation. Sad, but that's what you get from our lawsuit happy culture these days.Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
How the hell is that going to avoid litigation? They were being sued because they wouldn't let her attend with her girlfriend wearing the clothes of her choice. How hard would it have been for them to allow her to attend? How is cancelling the dance a way to avoid litigation? The second somebody touches that girl (since it was "her fault"), there's going to be a shitstorm of litigation from her and her family for the school inciting a hate crime by setting her up to be the "bad guy".
And although i know it doesn't sound like it, but I wouldn't have a problem with religion being taught in public schools as an elective if[ every religion was available as a class. So that means wiccan, pagan, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and so on up to all 10,000 or so religions on the planet. Considering that this is not a possibility, i think it's just best that religion stay out of schooling.
I'd not have a problem with covering several of the more influential ones, possibly grouped by geographical region of origin as an addition to geography/history.
How the hell is that going to avoid litigation? They were being sued because they wouldn't let her attend with her girlfriend wearing the clothes of her choice. How hard would it have been for them to allow her to attend? How is cancelling the dance a way to avoid litigation? The second somebody touches that girl (since it was "her fault"), there's going to be a s#*%storm of litigation from her and her family for the school inciting a hate crime by setting her up to be the "bad guy".Or, the school district sees that course of action as the only way to avoid any litigation. Sad, but that's what you get from our lawsuit happy culture these days.Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
This kind of student safety failure is all too common.
And although i know it doesn't sound like it, but I wouldn't have a problem with religion being taught in public schools as an elective if[ every religion was available as a class. So that means wiccan, pagan, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and so on up to all 10,000 or so religions on the planet. Considering that this is not a possibility, i think it's just best that religion stay out of schooling.I'd not have a problem with covering several of the more influential ones, possibly grouped by geographical region of origin as an addition to geography/history.
All or nothing...
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All or nothing...And although i know it doesn't sound like it, but I wouldn't have a problem with religion being taught in public schools as an elective if[ every religion was available as a class. So that means wiccan, pagan, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddhism, and so on up to all 10,000 or so religions on the planet. Considering that this is not a possibility, i think it's just best that religion stay out of schooling.I'd not have a problem with covering several of the more influential ones, possibly grouped by geographical region of origin as an addition to geography/history.
All or nothing indeed...but all or nothing is too much to be feasible (i want to say there's thousands if not 10s of thousands of religions) so they should leave it out entirely. I guess my point is made...if equal time and attention cannot be devoted to all religions, why should one or even a handful get preferential treatment?
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This kind of student safety failure is all too common.How the hell is that going to avoid litigation? They were being sued because they wouldn't let her attend with her girlfriend wearing the clothes of her choice. How hard would it have been for them to allow her to attend? How is cancelling the dance a way to avoid litigation? The second somebody touches that girl (since it was "her fault"), there's going to be a s#*%storm of litigation from her and her family for the school inciting a hate crime by setting her up to be the "bad guy".Or, the school district sees that course of action as the only way to avoid any litigation. Sad, but that's what you get from our lawsuit happy culture these days.Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
This wasn't a student safety failure, this was the school intentionally (it seemed to me anyway) putting this girl in a situation that could reasonably cause her harm (everyone knows how high school kids can get). It was negligence on the part of the school and, while i hope this girl doesn't get hurt, if she does i hope she sues the school for every last dime and leaves all of the administration responsible for this without a job.
All or nothing indeed...but all or nothing is too much to be feasible (i want to say there's thousands if not 10s of thousands of religions) so they should leave it out entirely. I guess my point is made...if equal time and attention cannot be devoted to all religions, why should one or even a handful get preferential treatment?
Because not all religions are created equal. There are perhaps only a dozen or two "influential" religions, including ones with few adherents but insight into what religion is. A laudable goal would be not to completely describe the tenets of each religion, but rather common beliefs and practices of adherents (noting that there will be differences in every sect and congregation).
Put another way, there are 1000s of proteins in the human body (not to mention all the many variants in all the other organisms. No-one could reasonably cover them all, so why bother? Well, some of them are terribly important and some of them give incredible insight into disease states, and so on. While one cannot study them all, one can learn from studying them.
In the same manner, one can learn more about religion by studying a handful of religions. Presumably, one can then critically examine one's own beliefs and morality and come to one's own conclusions about one's religious beliefs. Perhaps one might find that one of the covered suits, or might be inspired to seek out one of the more obscure, or might determine that no religion suits.
We've agreed on another key key point - the objective is learning, not memorization.
This wasn't a student safety failure, this was the school intentionally (it seemed to me anyway) putting this girl in a situation that could reasonably cause her harm (everyone knows how high school kids can get). It was negligence on the part of the school and, while i hope this girl doesn't get hurt, if she does i hope she sues the school for every last dime and leaves all of the administration responsible for this without a job.This kind of student safety failure is all too common.How the hell is that going to avoid litigation? They were being sued because they wouldn't let her attend with her girlfriend wearing the clothes of her choice. How hard would it have been for them to allow her to attend? How is cancelling the dance a way to avoid litigation? The second somebody touches that girl (since it was "her fault"), there's going to be a s#*%storm of litigation from her and her family for the school inciting a hate crime by setting her up to be the "bad guy".Or, the school district sees that course of action as the only way to avoid any litigation. Sad, but that's what you get from our lawsuit happy culture these days.Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
Let me restructure that sentence for clarity.
This kind of failure to secure student safety is all too common.
Even if she gets hurt at school because of this the odds of the school system being held accountable in court are slim.
Safety policies in schools seem to swing on big pendulums. Student safety is a non issue for a while then something tragic happens or almost happens. Then school districts will often grossly over react, and we see idiotic zero tolerance policies that expel kids for absurd reasons.
I guess my point is made...if equal time and attention cannot be devoted to all religions, why should one or even a handful get preferential treatment?
Because they were actually quite influential in the development (and destruction) of human civilization and cultures? It's asinine to leave out a dozen or a couple dozen large chunks of history just because of the many crumbs that fall to the bottom of the bag.
It's more important to learn why things in history happened rather than just what happened. A knowledge of the basics of Shinto would go a long way to help explain much of the nationalism in pre-WWII Japan, for instance.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I guess my point is made...if equal time and attention cannot be devoted to all religions, why should one or even a handful get preferential treatment?Because they were actually quite influential in the development (and destruction) of human civilization and cultures? It's asinine to leave out a dozen or a couple dozen large chunks of history just because of the many crumbs that fall to the bottom of the bag.
Moreover, since education in subjects like history and literature is somewhat localized, it can be worthwhile to have an understanding of the religions that are locally culturally significant. You're going to have a hard time understanding 16th century European history without understanding the Protestant Reformation, for instance. You're going to miss a lot of Shakespeare, Milton, and Dante if you don't know the Bible. ***I am not arguing for religious indoctrination in schools.*** But a broad liberal arts education is incomplete unless it imparts an understanding of the way religion has affected your culture.
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How the hell is that going to avoid litigation? They were being sued because they wouldn't let her attend with her girlfriend wearing the clothes of her choice. How hard would it have been for them to allow her to attend? How is cancelling the dance a way to avoid litigation? The second somebody touches that girl (since it was "her fault"), there's going to be a s*~@storm of litigation from her and her family for the school inciting a hate crime by setting her up to be the "bad guy".Or, the school district sees that course of action as the only way to avoid any litigation. Sad, but that's what you get from our lawsuit happy culture these days.Now this is a reason why i would homeschool my kids
This school district is intentionally trying to turn an entire school against one student who only wanted to go to the prom as herself.
The way I see it, I'd say the schoolboard was thinking that if they held the dance, and allowed her to attend, and something happened at the dance, then the school would be held liable.
So, rather than say "avoid litigation", I should have said they were trying to take, what in their minds may have been, the least litigious path.
As it turns out, they are getting sued anyway. The girl and the ACLU are suing to get the prom re-instated and allow the girl to attend with her date. I wouldn't mind if the suit fails, not because I have anything against this girl, or the students, but because I don't really see a prom as some kind of right the school is required to provide.