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What I am wondering is how the half-orc is balanced against the other player races? It seems like it's racial abilities don't stack up at all and that isn't taking into account the rp penalties it takes for having a negative social stigma in most locals. I mean, comparing it to the dwarf( the other medium race with darkvision ) I can't see how you would pick the half-orc unless you wanted to for rp purposes( which is totally understandable, but... ). I mean, if you were going to be creating a heavily charisma based character I guess( which still seems odd while playing a half-orc ). Just figured I'd ask and see if anyone had caught something I am missing.
Depends...
Most of the heavy anti-orc stigma a Half-orc suffers from is Golarion based or specifically campaign driven and has nothing to do with the basic stats for plain vanilla rules of the race.
The base race itself really only needs to be balanced vs. the other races right?
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Depends...
Most of the heavy anti-orc stigma a Half-orc suffers from is Golarion based or specifically campaign driven and has nothing to do with the basic stats for plain vanilla rules of the race.
The base race itself really only needs to be balanced vs. the other races right?
Correct, which I don't see it being. That was the first part of my post. Setting stigma aside, I do not see how it is balanced as against the other player races.
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Personally, I find them more desirable, stat wise than most of the others. Many other races, like Elves, Halfings, and Dwarves, statwise are very pidgeon-wholed into classes. Wanting to play a Dwarven cleric or Elven cleric means you actually take a hit to effectiveness and not much compensation. While played an Elven Wizard, Ranger, Thief, or maybe Fighter are ideal.
All in all, I really prefer the Beta Half-Orc, and prefere the PF Half-Orc to the 3E one. It is greratly balanced in PF, both versions, and in my opinion, is for the first time something my non-powergaming friends might want to play.
Lokie has a point. Mechanically it is pretty balanced with everyone else. I would caution against trying to give it other abilities to balance against campaign fluff.
Not to mention that some players choose the race specifically for the RP related baggage.
Well, the dwarf gets the most goodies (useful goodies, elves get weird bonuses, like only needing two hours of sleep) so comparing the half-orc the the dwarf is unfair. Dwarfs are really powerful.
That being said, while half-orcs aren't the most powerful race, they hold thier own. They're the best melee bards (insane but true) due to the free weapons and floating stat bonus, they are faster than the dwarf (important to remember, movement IS important)and the get the bonus to intimadate (which is kinda cool).
That being said, the buff they got was amazing- I've never seen a half orc played before ing three years of 3.5 (I'm a late start) and from what I've been told by my group they've never had one before (this is our group, so your results may differ). But as soon as pathfinder came out two people roled one- a monk and an archer fighter. Yes they took it more for fluff, but they also felt they weren't being punished for playing half orcs.
I compare the half-blood to the humans. The half orc skill bonus is worth less than the human's extra skill, but is handy. And darkvision is the most powerful racial ability (not the most useful, but its a constant second level spell)which makes up for the feat (which is more useful as it help progress builds)and then the half orc get some other goodies- all in all, a playable trade.
So, in my opinion, the half orc may be weaker than other races but oh so much more attractive than before. My group loves the new half orcs.
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Lokie has a point. Mechanically it is pretty balanced with everyone else. I would caution against trying to give it other abilities to balance against campaign fluff.
Pretty balanced?
Orc: +2 to any 1 stat
Dwarf: +2 con, wis, -2 chr
Balanced
Orc: Darkvision
Dwarf: Darkvision
Balanced
Orc: 30' move
Dwarf: 20' move, but is unaffected by armor or encumbrance
In most circumstances, Dwarf wins. ( Any armor but light drops your speed to 20' anyway )
Orc: intimidate +2
Dwarf: +2 to Appraise vs non-mag meta/gemstone items, +2 perception to notice stone anything( including traps )
We'll say the Orc wins this( slightly )
Orc: I got nothing
Dwarf: Gets to make perception checks for stone based anything whenever he passes within 10' even if not actively searching
Dwarf Wins
Orc: Remain conscious and able to take a partial action for 1 round while disabled 1/day
Dwarf: +2 sv vs poison, spells and spell-like abilities
Dwarf wins
Orc: Counts as orc and human
Dwarf: Counts as a dwarf
Not sure how many times this would come into play, but we'll say Orc wins. He needs a win.
Orc: prof great axe, falcion and "orc" weapons: Core - Orc Double Axe
Dwarf: Proficient in battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers and any weapon with "dwarven" in it's name. Core - Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Urgosh
We'll say balanced
Orc: We're out of abilities
Dwarf: +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Situational, but since the orc has nothing, Dwarf Wins
Orc: We're still out of abilities
Dwarf: +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and
goblinoid subtypes
Situational, but Dwarf wins. Especially since a half-orc counts as an orc...
Orc: ...
Dwarf: +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a
bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
Sure, it's situational. But Dwarf still wins.
Final score: Orc 2( because we are being nice ), Dwarf 6
Now, how is that balanced? Even if I'd come out 4 to 6 or something, I would call it balanced. But this was a massacre.
EDIT: I am not saying the half-orc isn't better than before, but compared to most of the other races, he comes out a little lackluster. the problem I have is, besides rp reasons, I can't think of too many reasons to choose the half-orc over another race for any specific character concept I have ( obviously the rp reasons should be taken into consideration). I admit that I will probably roll up a half-orc for a campaign I am going to play in. But that is why I noticed the mediocre-ness of the half-orc. I hadn't really looked at it before.
EDIT2: Added the actual weapons per core that were added from the "orc", "dwarven" additions
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True, but many of the things that the Orc does "win" are worth more than what the Dwarf "wins". Also, many of the Dwarf wins are only really good for a few levels and than mostly worthless (as in never used again). Like the AC vs Giants. However, these are all only important based on the class you are playing (and even the type of character in that class, like a tough fighter vs a sneaky fighter).
Greataxe, Falchion and "Orc" weapons are much better than "Dwarven" weapons most of the time. Or rather, more desirable.
Intimidate can be amazing, now, so that s probably a lot better than a +2 bonus that the Dm might not allow you to apply (it's a bit open ended).
As for the movement, dwarves only get any advantage if they are so incumbered that they wouldn't be ale to move otherwise, (in comparison). I'd take the 30ft any day. Especially if you are playing a class that does not wear much armor, like ranger, rogue, arcane casters, the Dwarf essentually gets the bad and not the good.
In most cases except maybe Druid or Rogue, I'd go Half-Orc before Dwarf, but thats personally. Barbarian is an exception. The -2 Cha is just way to bad all around (to many things go off of Cha, class features, many skills, racial abilities, and later magic items). In fact, the two main classes that need the +2 Wisdom also NEED Cha.
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True, but many of the things that the Orc does "win" are worth more than what the Dwarf "wins". Also, many of the Dwarf wins are only really good for a few levels and than mostly worthless (as in never used again). Like the AC vs Giants.
In most cases except maybe Druid or Rogue, I'd go Half-Orc before Dwarf, but thats personally. Barbarian is an exception. The -2 Cha is just way to bad all around (to many things go off of Cha, class features, many skills, racial abilities, and later magic items). In fact, the two main classes that need the +2 Wisdom also NEED Cha.
The things the Dwarf "wins" are useful just as long as the equivalent Half-Orc abilities. I'll admit that the dwarves stat bonuses are not ideal for all classes, whereas a Half-Orc can tailor his floating bonus to the specific role he is playing. However, so can humans and half-elves. Both of which I would probably take over half-orc except for rp reasons.
The movement thing is way off base. Your move drops to 20' if you are wearing medium armor or if you are encumbered beyond "light" encumbrance. Have you ever added up all your gear weight? If your strength isn't 14-16 range it doesn't take long to reach the max for light encumbrance.
EDIT: At 14 str 58 pounds is maximum for light encumbrance. After that your speed drops to 20'( or lower if you hit heavy encumbrance ). Chain shirt weighs 25lbs.
EDIT: Obviously this is slightly situational. half-orc most likely wins over human if my character concept relies on me seeing in the dark. half-elf still wins unless I really want to be able to see underground in the dark.
True, but many of the things that the Orc does "win" are worth more than what the Dwarf "wins". Also, many of the Dwarf wins are only really good for a few levels and than mostly worthless (as in never used again). Like the AC vs Giants. However, these are all only important based on the class you are playing (and even the type of character in that class, like a tough fighter vs a sneaky fighter).
Greataxe, Falchion and "Orc" weapons are much better than "Dwarven" weapons most of the time. Or rather, more desirable.
Intimidate can be amazing, now, so that s probably a lot better than a +2 bonus that the Dm might not allow you to apply (it's a bit open ended).
As for the movement, dwarves only get any advantage if they are so incumbered that they wouldn't be ale to move otherwise, (in comparison). I'd take the 30ft any day. Especially if you are playing a class that does not wear much armor, like ranger, rogue, arcane casters, the Dwarf essentually gets the bad and not the good.
In most cases except maybe Druid or Rogue, I'd go Half-Orc before Dwarf, but thats personally. Barbarian is an exception. The -2 Cha is just way to bad all around (to many things go off of Cha, class features, many skills, racial abilities, and later magic items). In fact, the two main classes that need the +2 Wisdom also NEED Cha.
Don't forget movement for fighters. With that armor training and all the Half-Orc in my opinion wins there too. Though a dwarven fighter is just as good if not better in some situations I just like the look and feel of tough intimidating great axe wielding Half Orc.
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The movement thing is way off base. Your move drops to 20' if you are wearing medium armor or if you are encumbered beyond "light" encumbrance. Have you ever added up all your gear weight? If your strength isn't 14-16 range it doesn't take long to reach the max for light encumbrance.
EDIT: At 14 str 58 pounds is maximum for light encumbrance. After that your speed drops to 20'( or lower if you hit heavy encumbrance ). Chain shirt weighs 25lbs.
What I mean is that a Dwarven Sorcerer still has the 20ft, wearing nothing at all. A lot of characters do not have a lot of gear, like the Monk (which gets +10ft so doesn't really count). All in all, it is better to not have a penulty than to have one with some built in fix for a case that might not apply.
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What I mean is that a Dwarven Sorcerer still has the 20ft, wearing nothing at all. A lot of characters do not have a lot of gear, like the Monk (which gets +10ft so doesn't really count). All in all, it is better to not have a penulty than to have one with some built in fix for a case that might not apply.The movement thing is way off base. Your move drops to 20' if you are wearing medium armor or if you are encumbered beyond "light" encumbrance. Have you ever added up all your gear weight? If your strength isn't 14-16 range it doesn't take long to reach the max for light encumbrance.
EDIT: At 14 str 58 pounds is maximum for light encumbrance. After that your speed drops to 20'( or lower if you hit heavy encumbrance ). Chain shirt weighs 25lbs.
Lol. Everything is situational. We might as well not count dark vision because you could be adventuring only in brightly lit areas. Or Great Axe proficiency because you are going to be playing a monk. I am not "attacking" the half-orc and saying he is worse than the dwarf in every situation you can think of, I am merely saying that in most cases, I would choose the dwarf over the half-orc if rp reasons were not involved. If rp reasons become involved, obviously it depends entirely on your character concept. And sure, for the sorcerer who doesn't carry anything( no backpack, bedroll, rations, water, rope, spell book, clothes, ink, etc ), the movement penalty doesn't really matter. However, if he does want any of that stuff( and assuming a 10 str ) he has 33 lbs to work with before become encumbered. I am pretty sure that is a fairly light pack as far as traveling is concerned.
It seems that PFRPG just added the same amount of bonuses to each race, which did not work for the already-underpowered half-orcs.
If we tossed in one more ability like a semi-free feat would that balance the race out?
Say... give half-orcs the ability to choose from a very small list of feats at first level. For example: Veiled Vileness from the PFCS. (Look Human - no disguise check) or the Self Sufficient feat.
EDIT: Just to expand on my thinking. The reason I mention a feat is that Half-elves (closest race to half-orcs) also get a free feat on top of their immunity to sleep, bonus vs. enchantments, etc...
Now, as has been mentioned - some players like choosing the Half-orcs for the "RP baggage" tied to the race, but some players may not.
So I propose giving the option of either Veiled Vileness so you can play a Half-orc that has orcish blood in their background but does not suffer from the social stigma OR Self Sufficient to show that you have been surviving the school of tough knocks and have had to take care of yourself. Both options seem to fit the race... and neither is over powerfully unbalanced.
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I think the stat bonus is pretty much even with the other races, so I would be kind of hesitant to adjust that.
Adding a bonus to a sv or 2 or another skill like survival might work.
Even changing the act for 1 round while disabled ability might work out better. Remove the limited use per day and increase the rounds to lvl/2 min 1. That makes it worse than die-hard( go until negative con ) in most situations, but still makes it useful. Obviously they still lose 1hp per round they choose to act in while disabled.
half-orc most likely wins over human if my character concept relies on me seeing in the dark. half-elf still wins unless I really want to be able to see underground in the dark.
Then perhaps you should do your comparison with half-orc, half-elf and human. See how the half-orc does against something other than the dwarf.
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half-orc most likely wins over human if my character concept relies on me seeing in the dark. half-elf still wins unless I really want to be able to see underground in the dark.Then perhaps you should do your comparison with half-orc, half-elf and human. See how the half-orc does against something other than the dwarf.
I would, but I am not sure how meaningful it would be. Mostly, at that point, it comes down to how you rate darkvision. Everyone weighs it differently depending on character concept and the like. I specifically chose dwarf because it had darkvision as well, which made the inevitable "darkvision is uber and makes up for anything" arguments moot. Honestly, I don't find dark vision to be uber insane. Is it a good ability? Definitely. Is it very situationally based? Definitely. I was trying to keep it out of the comparison as it is hard to rank it properly.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Human - Half-elf - Half-or all have the most in common.
Got my edit in on my post above a little slow. Heh. :)
How about an extra racial trait?
Orcs are a varied and adaptive race. Half-orcs may be from one of these orc types, must be chosen at 1st level.
Tuskers - Character has prominent tusks and heightened aggression
= ?
Snaga - Descended from the sly and sneaky breed of orc
= ?
Citified - Setting Dependent - Half Orc's parentage were both half orcs that have adapted somewhat to mainstream society. This trait may alienate the character from wild orcs and half orcs.
= gains a Humans extra skill point per level.
Brute - Your lineage has been bred for its strength.
= ?
S
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I have some ideas for these traits.
Tuskers - Character has prominent tusks and heightened aggression
= Bite attack
Snaga - Descended from the sly and sneaky breed of orc
= +2 stealth and bluff
Citified - Setting Dependent - Half Orc's parentage were both half orcs that have adapted somewhat to mainstream society. This trait may alienate the character from wild orcs and half orcs.
= gains a Humans extra skill point per level.
Brute - Your lineage has been bred for its strength.
= +2 str, -2 int
S
What does everyone think?
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I have some ideas for these traits.
What does everyone think?Tuskers - Character has prominent tusks and heightened aggression
= Bite attack
Snaga - Descended from the sly and sneaky breed of orc
= +2 stealth and bluff
Citified - Setting Dependent - Half Orc's parentage were both half orcs that have adapted somewhat to mainstream society. This trait may alienate the character from wild orcs and half orcs.
= gains a Humans extra skill point per level.
Brute - Your lineage has been bred for its strength.
= +2 str, -2 int
S
Looks decent. Though I am fairly against giving stat modifiers. You could always give a +2 bonus on strength checks and strength based skill checks instead of the +2 str, -2 int.
Looks decent. Though I am fairly against giving stat modifiers. You could always give a +2 bonus on strength checks and strength based skill checks instead of the +2 str, -2 int.I have some ideas for these traits.
What does everyone think?Tuskers - Character has prominent tusks and heightened aggression
= Bite attack
Snaga - Descended from the sly and sneaky breed of orc
= +2 stealth and bluff
Citified - Setting Dependent - Half Orc's parentage were both half orcs that have adapted somewhat to mainstream society. This trait may alienate the character from wild orcs and half orcs.
= gains a Humans extra skill point per level.
Brute - Your lineage has been bred for its strength.
= +2 str, -2 int
S
I don't know... could work I guess. Just seems like trying to make it so they can fit any situation is a bit too much though.
I don't know... could work I guess. Just seems like trying to make it so they can fit any situation is a bit too much though.
Is it that different from the various breeds of dwarves, elves, etc....
I have always seen Orcs as being a tampered with genetic cesspool. In tolkien and many other settings there are different strains of orc.
I think this gives the added benefit of actually unfying the half orc with the possible background of orc kind. There's role play potential here too.
I like adding it as a racial trait - makes it easy to include or not. If you think its overpowered use the 2 traits = 1 feat mechanic.
PS: I also think the stat change breaks the decorum of traits\feats. Stat change would easily be the default option and then you might as well modify the base race. I think I'd opt for a higher carrying capacity due to efficient breeding. Maybe another situational bonus too.
Then how about just going with an increased carrying capacity. That is actually really helpful for a lot of character builds.
Half-orcs receive a bonus of 4 strength for the purposes of determining their carrying capacity and encumberance.
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I guess the problem is that the various dwarven/elven breeds and such are not in the Player's Guide. I also think that giving that many options is straying away from the "feel" of the other races. Which isn't really the point. I'd rather them come into line with the other races.
From what I have gathered, there is no plan to have variants on the core races, ever. I seem to recall it in a thread where James posted, but am too distracted to look for it.
Then how about just going with an increased carrying capacity. That is actually really helpful for a lot of character builds.
Half-orcs receive a bonus of 4 strength for the purposes of determining their carrying capacity and encumberance.
I much prefer this to any of the other variants posted in this thread.
I guess the problem is that the various dwarven/elven breeds and such are not in the Player's Guide. I also think that giving that many options is straying away from the "feel" of the other races. Which isn't really the point. I'd rather them come into line with the other races.
Agreed. So if we were to add anything it'd need to be fairly generic.
Comparing the Half-Elf and the Half-orc
IMHO as far as balance is concerned, Immunity to Sleep and Darkvision both balance nicely as "situation" specific abilities.
One of the biggest differences between the Half-elf and Half-orc is that free Skill Focus feat. While the feat is chosen for you... you still get to pick WHAT you have focus on. Basically giving the Half-elf a free floating +3 on any one skill.
P.S. -
As a side note: That is not to say those traits are a complete waste. They might be worked into something so you could select them as Racial Flavored Pathfinder Traits. As you can only pick ONE trait from any category it'd eliminate any worry of stacking them.
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Personally, I think the Half-Orc is fine as is. As I've said, I already prefer it to pretty much anything already. However, if you want to add something, I'd look at something more, tribal or "savage".
Maybe their unarmed strikes are always treated as armed. (Basicly just like a gauntlet, similar to a natural slam, but without natural attack baggage).
Maybe they get Endurance as a bonus feat.
Maybe a weaker powerful charge, (+1 to att or dmg while charging, or +5 ft or something)
Maybe a +3 against being feinted (or similar combat bluffs)
Maybe a special DR that protects agains 1 point of Nonlethal damage. (Nonlethal DR 1/-).
Maybe a special DR that protects against 1 point of Nonlethal damage. (Nonlethal DR 1/-).
1/2 Orcs come from a physically aggressive culture. They gain a race bonus against nonlethal damage representing their toughness and stoicism in nonlethal combat.
I'd be fine is this was unarmed or nonlethal so long as it was only DR/1.Of course I'd give the same (perhaps DR/3) to Orcs.
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Lokie has a point. Mechanically it is pretty balanced with everyone else. I would caution against trying to give it other abilities to balance against campaign fluff.
Well, there's the dwarf case, but they are universally hated, no matter what world they're in - even if they're the only race in the world.
I mean, if you were going to be creating a heavily charisma based character I guess( which still seems odd while playing a half-orc ).
What, a huge big guy with arms corded with muscle, just looming over you, with an aura of ferocious anger about him.
Can totally work. You might not go the "I'm mister nice guy" road. Bad guys get all the hot chicks.
Plus, if you want anything that's mobile, you don't go dwarf.
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Lokie has a point. Mechanically it is pretty balanced with everyone else. I would caution against trying to give it other abilities to balance against campaign fluff.Well, there's the dwarf case, but they are universally hated, no matter what world they're in - even if they're the only race in the world.
I mean, if you were going to be creating a heavily charisma based character I guess( which still seems odd while playing a half-orc ).What, a huge big guy with arms corded with muscle, just looming over you, with an aura of ferocious anger about him.
Can totally work. You might not go the "I'm mister nice guy" road. Bad guys get all the hot chicks.
Plus, if you want anything that's mobile, you don't go dwarf.
Unless you want someone that is mobile while carrying an unconscious pc on his back :)
Unless you want someone that is mobile while carrying an unconscious pc on his back :)
Then I take human or half-elf or half-orc, because of the (potential) strength bonus.
And even an elf is no slower than a dwarf if he has to carry a comrade. If he doesn't, he's faster.
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Unless you want someone that is mobile while carrying an unconscious pc on his back :)
Then I take human or half-elf or half-orc, because of the (potential) strength bonus.
And even an elf is no slower than a dwarf if he has to carry a comrade. If he doesn't, he's faster.
And monks under the effect of a permanent haste are the fastest.
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And monks under the effect of a permanent haste are the fastest.Unless you want someone that is mobile while carrying an unconscious pc on his back :)
Then I take human or half-elf or half-orc, because of the (potential) strength bonus.
And even an elf is no slower than a dwarf if he has to carry a comrade. If he doesn't, he's faster.
Monk movement is an enhancement bonus. It doesn't stack with Haste.
Monk movement is an enhancement bonus. It doesn't stack with Haste.
Indeed, strangely monks speed is Enhancement, Barbarian speed is not.
Monks are generally the fastest at higher levels regardless but they don't benefit too much from the speed part of haste.
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And monks under the effect of a permanent haste are the fastest.Unless you want someone that is mobile while carrying an unconscious pc on his back :)
Then I take human or half-elf or half-orc, because of the (potential) strength bonus.
And even an elf is no slower than a dwarf if he has to carry a comrade. If he doesn't, he's faster.
Monk movement is an enhancement bonus. It doesn't stack with Haste.
True, but they get more attacks = attacks faster
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A bit off topic, and I don't have my book to check this out, but I just had a weird idea. The discription of the Dwarf Movement speed has changed from 3E a little, saying something like Dwarves speed is never reduced due to armor or encumberance. So does a Dwarven Monk in Adamantine Full Plate still get the increased speed? Or Barbarian? I know the Monk would lose out in other things, but that could be a funny character. . .
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Pretty balanced?
Orc: +2 to any 1 stat
Dwarf: +2 con, wis, -2 chr
Balanced
This depends on which kind of class you're playing. Dwarves don't make nearly as good of sorcerers or bards because of the -2 cha, and it makes Extra Channel almost compulsory for a Dwarf Cleric. Half-Orc can get a beneficial +2 regardless of class choice.
Orc: Darkvision
Dwarf: Darkvision
Balanced
Fair enough.
Orc: 30' move
Dwarf: 20' move, but is unaffected by armor or encumbrance
In most circumstances, Dwarf wins. ( Any armor but light drops your speed to 20' anyway )
Again, this depends on class. Classes that wear light armor, thus giving the advantage to the half-orc: bard, monk, rogue, sorcerer, wizard. Druids can go light or medium, but even not counting them, that's 5 of 11 classes that the Half-Orc has an advantage in. Now, if we put them in heavy armor....they're now the same speed.
In other words, Dwarves only win here if they're both wearing heavy armor andheavily encumbered. I'd say Dwarves break even at best.
Orc: intimidate +2
Dwarf: +2 to Appraise vs non-mag meta/gemstone items, +2 perception to notice stone anything( including traps )
We'll say the Orc wins this( slightly )
Half-orc definitely wins, the +2 to appraise is hardly worth mentioning.
Orc: I got nothing
Dwarf: Gets to make perception checks for stone based anything whenever he passes within 10' even if not actively searching
Dwarf Wins
This is a nice ability for dwarves, they win here.
Orc: Remain conscious and able to take a partial action for 1 round while disabled 1/day
Dwarf: +2 sv vs poison, spells and spell-like abilities
Dwarf wins
Dwarves definitely win here, but the orc ability is pretty awesome. Anybody with healing magic, or the fast drinker talent and a cure potion can keep themselves from going down.
Orc: Counts as orc and human
Dwarf: Counts as a dwarf
Not sure how many times this would come into play, but we'll say Orc wins. He needs a win.
Meh.
Orc: prof great axe, falcion and "orc" weapons: Core - Orc Double Axe
Dwarf: Proficient in battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers and any weapon with "dwarven" in it's name. Core - Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Urgosh
We'll say balanced
This one depends on what you're going for, but the greataxe and falchion are both extremely good, arguably more desirable than the Dwarven Waraxe.
Orc: We're out of abilities
Dwarf: +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Situational, but since the orc has nothing, Dwarf WinsOrc: We're still out of abilities
Dwarf: +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and
goblinoid subtypes
Situational, but Dwarf wins. Especially since a half-orc counts as an orc...Orc: ...
Dwarf: +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a
bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
Sure, it's situational. But Dwarf still wins.
3 very situational abilities count as maybe one "win" combined.
It's much better to assign a point value to each class feature, on a scale, and compare on that basis. Sure, the Dwarves have more class features, but half of them are extremely situational and dependent on class. All of the Half-Orcs features are usable by essentially any class, which gives them a major edge in versatility.
By my count, the number of 'wins' comes out pretty close. 3 for the Dwarf, 2 for the Half Orc.
As a Dwarf lover, I agree that I'd rather play a Dwarf any day of the week. And I do play them, twice a week. But don't assume that more racial features means that the race is better.
I would say that the Half-Orc is pretty good as is. Balanced isn't found in a comparison between other, but how useful the race/class/etc is to a player.
However, I would not be against a little (minor) something more.
I'm playing a half-orc paladin in legacy of fire, and I must say half-orcs are pretty pimp. Nothing's knocked him below 0 yet, but if they did, he can swift action lay hands and then full attack him, or just lay hands twice and still move. darkvision is your friend as traveling in the daytime in the desert in armor is a death sentence.
This still bothers me. I've asked a couple times in the past why this was seen as 'balanced' when it seems clear to most people I talk to that we got pretty shafted in the racial features area.
The floating stat + DV makes me a pretty sweet rogue, but...
There are multiple points to balance in a game. I think the dwarf does very well so many people choose to balance against the dwarf. If you change to be balanced against the dwarf you might not be balanced against another race.
Orcs and half orcs have an unmistakable 'large and in charge' vibe to them and I have players that play no other race. My gut reaction is that its a pretty good balance for most players. I'm not averse to a cookie for the half orc if it makes them a more popular choice but to tell you the truth, Half-orcs are one of the more popular races at my table.
I see almost no gnomes, unless maybe they're illusionists.