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So the Hide in plain sight class ability is fairly straight forward. In short it lets allows you to use the stealth skill without having to make distraction using the bluff skill or having concealment even when being observed. But when in interacts with feats like Spring Attack it becomes a little more confusing. The feats permit to move both before and after the attack.
So in theory from hiding you could move then sneak attack then move and re-stealth and just repeat this until there dead or they manage to spot you. And since your not trying to maintain obscure location like in the Stealth skill description of sniping, since your constantly moving and hiding it seems like the -20 penalty does not apply.
Does anyone know if there been a official ruling on this in the past or has it yet to be addressed?
So in theory from hiding you could move then sneak attack then move and re-stealthThe second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.
Now in the Stealth skill description they state "Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action" so I think I'm reasoning is fair as far as that's concerned. I just uncertain if I'm following the rules correctly on the re-hiding after the sneak attack.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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"Action: Usually none.
think I'm reasoning is fair as far as that's concerned. I just uncertain if I'm following the rules correctly on the re-hiding after the sneak attack.
That just means the Hide isn't an action, but a Rider. You still need some action (typically a Move) to use the Hide.
You can't just stand still and Hide even with HiPS. You need to Hide behind something, so you need to Move, conjure a wall in front of you, or otherwise create something to hide behind.
The second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.
I'm not certain I agree with this interpretation of the stealth rules. The intent seems fairly clear to me, namely, that you can't enter stealth while being observed, and thus require Cover or Concealment to make a stealth attempt. Once you're concealed though, you're not actively being observed, and it should be possible to move up to an opponent while remaining in hidden, so long as your opponent's perception doesn't beat your stealth check.
That just means the Hide isn't an action, but a Rider. You still need some action (typically a Move) to use the Hide.
This I agree with entirely. The original question involved using Spring attack though, which definitely counts as movement in my book.
You can't just stand still and Hide even with HiPS. You need to Hide behind something, so you need to Move, conjure a wall in front of you, or otherwise create something to hide behind.
Again, this isn't supported by the rules text. The only place where needing cover or concealment is mentioned under the stealth skill is in the section specifically dealing with being observed while attempting to hide. As Hide in Plain Sight negates the need to escape observation, it would seem to negate the need for cover and concealment as well.
So in theory from hiding you could move then sneak attack then move and re-stealth and just repeat this until there dead or they manage to spot you. And since your not trying to maintain obscure location like in the Stealth skill description of sniping, since your constantly moving and hiding it seems like the -20 penalty does not apply.
By my reading, this is exactly right. You still have to maintain the conditions of your HiPS ability throughout all movement. IE if you're a Shadowdancer, you have be within 10' of dim light the whole time. You still take the -5 to your check if you go more than half your movement rate in the round unless you've got the Fast Stealth Rogue ability.
As long as you relocated after taking the shot, you don't have to take the -20 penalty. For instance, if there is a long, low wall between you and your target. You can spend the first round getting into postion and we'll assume you successfully hide. Second round you pop-up and shoot your target (standard action), and then duck back behind the wall and move along it in either direction (move action). While you move, you make a Stealth Check with no penalty. Next round, repeat. Obviously this doesn't work all the time, but it's an example of doing the exact same thing the OP is talking about with no special abilities or feats whatsoever. HiPS and Shot on the Run just let you do it more often.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.I'm not certain I agree with this interpretation of the stealth rules.
More precisely, if you move and leave your cover/concealment object you become unhidden. If (by some odd chance) you can manage to maintain yourself behind cover up to the target, then you should be able to Spring Attack. I didn't account for the rare condition of some wall you can hide behind that takes you to your target.
You can't just stand still and Hide even with HiPS.Again, this isn't supported by the rules text ... it would seem to negate the need for cover and concealment as well.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Without a line saying it negates the cover you are taking the "it doesn't say I can't" position. It doesn't say you can't take actions while dead either. It doesn't say 20th Fighters can't cast Wish.
More precisely, if you move and leave your cover/concealment object you become unhidden. If (by some odd chance) you can manage to maintain yourself behind cover up to the target, then you should be able to Spring Attack. I didn't account for the rare condition of some wall you can hide behind that takes you to your target.
This has nothing to do with my point, the example of having a covering wall was ZappoHisbane's point, not mine.
My point was entirely different, namely, that you've misread the stealth rules, primarily by taking several lines out of context dealing with cover and concealment.
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
If you are currently successfully hiding, you are not being observed, and do not require cover or concealment to maintain your stealth. (Although as a DM, I'd certainly apply penalties to the check for attempting to cross through an area ill suited to stealthy movement)
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks if you're moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Feats).
I've highlighted the relevant line that quite a few people on the boards have misread. You'll note that there is no mention of cover or concealment at any point during the Stealth entry other than in relation to using Stealth while being observed.
If you're already hidden, you are not being observed, and there's no reason whatsoever, based on the skill text, that you should have to have cover or concealment to make further stealth checks. Now as a DM I would make someone attempting to cross through an area ill suited to stealth take a penalty to the check, just as I would penalize the check of someone attempting to climb an ice covered, sheer rock wall without the appropriate gear, but claiming that the rules as written say that such stealth checks are flat impossible is hogwash.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Without a line saying it negates the cover you are taking the "it doesn't say I can't" position. It doesn't say you can't take actions while dead either. It doesn't say 20th Fighters can't cast Wish.
That's not my position at all, and frankly, the language you're using to try and misconstrue it as my position is insulting and rude. If you're so sure that your position is correct, how about presenting some evidence of that, instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You'll note that there is no mention of cover or concealment at any point during the Stealth entry other than in relation to using Stealth while being observed.
The problem is you and I read the Stealth rules and come to opposite absolute certainty in our opinion.
I see nothing in the flavor or rules of Stealth that suggests you can maintain Stealth without something that provides Stealth (like cover.)
To prove my point, I would post the Stealth rules (but you just did that for me.)
The problem is you and I read the Stealth rules and come to opposite absolute certainty in our opinion.
I see nothing in the flavor or rules of Stealth that suggests you can maintain Stealth without something that provides Stealth (like cover.)
To prove my point, I would post the Stealth rules (but you just did that for me.)
The difference being I'm supporting my position by pointing out the actual wording in the skill while your position seems to simply be "I think it works this way and so it does"
Perhaps if you'd care to explain which part of the Stealth skill entry exactly supports your interpretation and why? I'm certainly willing to listen if you have a decent argument. (As opposed to essentially saying "nuh uh" and refusing to explain why)
The second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.I'm not certain I agree with this interpretation of the stealth rules.More precisely, if you move and leave your cover/concealment object you become unhidden. If (by some odd chance) you can manage to maintain yourself behind cover up to the target, then you should be able to Spring Attack. I didn't account for the rare condition of some wall you can hide behind that takes you to your target.
Well we will have to agree to disagree. Without a line saying it negates the cover you are taking the "it doesn't say I can't" position. It doesn't say you can't take actions while dead either. It doesn't say 20th Fighters can't cast Wish.You can't just stand still and Hide even with HiPS.Again, this isn't supported by the rules text ... it would seem to negate the need for cover and concealment as well.
Yes but even if we subscribe to your very limited interpretation of what Stealth does, which would immensely devalue stealth and wouldn't allow a rogue to sneak up on a enemy without magical assistance. My original question involved hide in plain sight. Which allows you to hide without cover or concealment, it states that very clearly in the description of the ability.
So even with your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with hips wouldn't de-stealth just because he's in the open as long as he has a shadow 10ft away from him, because he no longer need cover or concealment.
And if that's the case he should be able to move up to enemy without de-stealthing, attack with sneak attack (provided he hasn't been spotted) and then finish his movement and re-stealth, provided he is still 10ft away from a shadow.
I see nothing in the flavor or rules of Stealth that suggests you can maintain Stealth without something that provides Stealth (like cover.)
Which is precisely what hide in plain sight does. Gives you cover where there is none.
You can hide, even while being observed. Only available for a shadowdancer in 10' of shadow. Even better for a ranger, you just have to be in the favored terrain. So if it were, say Urban, I could hide all day long in a city, taking all appropriate modifiers for say moving.
I just read the rules, and at the end of the last paragraph it says "It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging." What's "attacking" in this case? I would say that it means "in combat" but that's not actually true. You can still Stealth while under cover while in combat. You can also "snipe" with Stealth by taking a single ranged attack and take a -20 to your Stealth check to remain hidden. That's pretty much "in combat."
Maybe it means while making melee attacks? It doesn't actually say that though. It might mean that, but I'm going to go a different route.
To snipe, you have to be at least 10' away before you take your shot to have a chance of re-stealthing. And even then it's at a -20.
I think it's perfectly legal rules-wise to use Stealth in conjuction with Spring Attack if you have Hide in Plain Sight, as long as you start and end at least 10' away from your target, you would also get the appropriate modifiers. -20 for doing the "snipe," and -5 if you don't have fast Stealth etc.
You could go the other way where you can't Stealth while attacking, but you can Stealth with hide in plain sight under any other circumstance.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The difference being I'm supporting my position by pointing out the actual wording in the skill
The wording you are using does not prove your side, you are intentionally (or mistakenly) interpreting that in a way that it means something more than it actually means.
hide in plain sight. Which allows you to hide without cover or concealment, it states that very clearly in the description of the ability.
At no point does HiPS hint or say this. It only allows you to hide while being observed, you still need something to hide behind. HiPS isn't an invisibility tool, it is a tool that allows you to run behind a rock and the person watching you doesn't know you just ran behind that rock.
I think it's perfectly legal rules-wise to use Stealth in conjuction with Spring Attack if you have Hide in Plain Sight, as long as you start and end at least 10' away from your target
In that case, I'd agree but there is an additional requirement. You must maintain the hide (in that case "within 10' of shadow") for the duration of the Sneak Attack and you must make a Re-Stealth with the -20 penalty after the attack.
hide in plain sight. Which allows you to hide without cover or concealment, it states that very clearly in the description of the ability.At no point does HiPS hint or say this. It only allows you to hide while being observed, you still need something to hide behind. HiPS isn't an invisibility tool, it is a tool that allows you to run behind a rock and the person watching you doesn't know you just ran behind that rock.
Page 106 - Stealth: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use stealth.
Page 67 - Hide in Plain Sight(Ex): While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
Page 392 - Hide in Plain Sight(Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Maybe this will help, note the different ability types. Emphasis mine. I think the important thing here is that the use of stealth does not require cover or concealment, only that the target has not observed you or cannot currently observe you. HIPS removes this requirement.
The wording you are using does not prove your side, you are intentionally (or mistakenly) interpreting that in a way that it means something more than it actually means.
hide in plain sight. Which allows you to hide without cover or concealment, it states that very clearly in the description of the ability.At no point does HiPS hint or say this. It only allows you to hide while being observed, you still need something to hide behind. HiPS isn't an invisibility tool, it is a tool that allows you to run behind a rock and the person watching you doesn't know you just ran behind that rock.
I'm so lost here. I have 2fold questions for each point.
What meaning is being added into his description of the sentence?
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. FULL STOP
Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. FULL STOP
(If observed, you cannot hide. FULL STOP)
(If cover, you are not observed, and can hide, FULL STOP)What is your interpretation of the above?
hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind
*anything* is cover or concealment as defined in the rules.
What do you mean when HiPS doesn't say you don't need cover or concealment? You mean the actual verbiage? Or the statement that you can hide in the open?
It literally says 'you don't need anything to hide behind'. So you don't need the rock, no?
The second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.
Why does it say you can move at half your speed at no penalty while stealthed if moving causes you to be unhidden?
Why is there a feat that allows you to move your full speed while stealthed if you become unhidden when you move?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Maybe this will help, note the different ability types. Emphasis mine.
Doesn't help, I'm aware of the abilities (intimately) but I just disagree entirely with your interpretation. The Shadowdancer doesn't need something to hide behind (he hides behind the shadows within so many feet.)
All Stealth and HiPS require something to hide behind. In the case of the Shadowdancer they added that "without anything to actually hide behind" to make it clear the shadow is what you are hiding behind.
Why does it say you can move at half your speed at no penalty while stealthed if moving causes you to be unhidden?
Moving into view causes you to become unhidden, not moving explicitly. If you have a wall all the way up to the target, if you have darkness up to the target, if you have a fog cloud up to the target, if you have cover up to the target, you can make a Stealth to walk (half or full if you have the ability) up to the target while hidden. This just isn't what PC want to commonly do.
Maybe this will help, note the different ability types. Emphasis mine.Doesn't help, I'm aware of the abilities (intimately) but I just disagree entirely with your interpretation. The Shadowdancer doesn't need something to hide behind (he hides behind the shadows within so many feet.)
All Stealth and HiPS require something to hide behind. In the case of the Shadowdancer they added that "without anything to actually hide behind" to make it clear the shadow is what you are hiding behind.
Why does it say you can move at half your speed at no penalty while stealthed if moving causes you to be unhidden?Moving into view causes you to become unhidden, not moving explicitly. If you have a wall all the way up to the target, if you have darkness up to the target, if you have a fog cloud up to the target, if you have cover up to the target, you can make a Stealth to walk (half or full if you have the ability) up to the target while hidden. This just isn't what PC want to commonly do.
You have nothing to back this up though. HiPS does NOT need anything to hide behind. Shadows other than the shadow dancers own are sufficient for them to utilize their HiPS ability and you don't hide behind them, you hide within them. You need to show otherwise in the RAW in order to have a valid point. You have not done that yet.
Seeing something or someone who has rolled a stealth check requires an opposed perception check if that creature has already become stealthed. Leaping from the shadows does not take away the element of surprise for a sneak attack if a successful perception check was not made prior to said creature leaping from the shadows. He will not be stealthed after his attack is over but for purposes of getting the drop on someone he most definitely has stealth.
You have this idea that Stealth is based on environment, but the skill clearly states that it is based on observation. Cover and concealment allow you to beat observation. If you haven't been observed, you don't need cover/concealment.
You have this idea that Stealth is based on environment, but the skill clearly states that it is based on observation. Cover and concealment allow you to beat observation. If you haven't been observed, you don't need cover/concealment.
Exactly my point, thank you very much.
Glad to be of service. ;)
Maybe this will help, note the different ability types. Emphasis mine.Doesn't help, I'm aware of the abilities (intimately) but I just disagree entirely with your interpretation. The Shadowdancer doesn't need something to hide behind (he hides behind the shadows within so many feet.)
All Stealth and HiPS require something to hide behind. In the case of the Shadowdancer they added that "without anything to actually hide behind" to make it clear the shadow is what you are hiding behind.
Why does it say you can move at half your speed at no penalty while stealthed if moving causes you to be unhidden?Moving into view causes you to become unhidden, not moving explicitly. If you have a wall all the way up to the target, if you have darkness up to the target, if you have a fog cloud up to the target, if you have cover up to the target, you can make a Stealth to walk (half or full if you have the ability) up to the target while hidden. This just isn't what PC want to commonly do.
In the Ranger version of HiPS, it specificially states "even while being observed." In the Stealth skill it says "if people are observing you with any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use stealth."
Put the two together, HiPS means you can hide even while being seen, because that's what a Ranger can do in his favored terrain.
The shadowdancer caveat is there because the shadowdancer must hide in shadow because that's the flavor of that class. A shadow dancer.
Under normal circumstances, you would have to NOT be observed to use stealth, however HiPS removes the need to NOT be observed under OTHER circumstances (either in a shadow for a shadowdancer, or in a ranger's favored terrain). You would need to be NOT observed (under cover, etc.) if either of those conditions were not met.
So you could do the spring/sneak attack stealth, as long as you kinda pass by the "cannot stealth while attacking."
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Put the two together, HiPS means you can hide even while being seen
HiPS isn't an Invisibility effect, as it was explicitly say so if it was such a thing.
HiPS allows you to hide while being observed, you still need something to hide behind since you don't just vanish.
Until someone can show a line in HiPS or Stealth to back up the "I just go poof and am now invisible" then I don't see why anyone would argue they just become invisible.
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Just have your friendly fighter threaten the guy and get your sneak attack through flanks. Then you don't have to worry about pesky shadows and concealment and such. Start stealthed, spring attack with sneak attack, and the end stealthed.
Edit: Every HiPS description I've seen requires that you be within a reasonable distance of some sort of cover. Whether that is shadow or a tree or whatnot.
Edit2: I just read the ranger HiPS. Seems like it should be errata'd.
Edit3: Shadows provide concealment. Which also allows the user to stealth. My assumption with any of the HiPS options is that you must be within 10' of cover/concealment in order to use the ability. It does not allow you to just stand in the middle of a barren, flat wasteland at high noon and go *poof*.
Edit4: Actually i don't think it matters anymore. HiPS allows you to make your stealth check. It does not negate situational penalties. Go ahead and try to hide in the middle of the day with no cover or shadows. Hope your Stealth is astronomical.
Edit4: Actually i don't think it matters anymore. HiPS allows you to make your stealth check. It does not negate situational penalties. Go ahead and try to hide in the middle of the day with no cover or shadows. Hope your Stealth is astronomical.
This is exactly what I'm saying.
The stealth ability says you can hide only when not being observed. Sight is the most typical sense that you will be observed by (sound and smell can also be used) so cover is usually enough to break observation allowing you to stealth (you'd need something to "cover" your scent or sound if being observed by the other senses.) HiPS removes the need to NOT be observed if other circumstances are met (10' of shadow, favored terrain.) Thus, you wouldn't need to stop them from observing you with sight (need any type of cover), sound (silence spell), or smell (not sure what to do about this!). You'd need only to make an opposed stealth to perception check (with all approriate modifiers.)
In the above example for spring attack sneak attack, you'd need to make a few stealth perception checks. At least a -20 modifier after attacking seems appropriate (and is also present in sniping.) You could even disallow the stealth after attacking directly from the stealth skill that says it's impossible to stealth while attacking.
This is hardly invisibility and hardly overpowered. But to say that HiPS still needs some sort of cover to use stealth, when the ability specifically says that you can stealth while being observed, is not what the rules say at all.
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RAI seems to be that there is some sort of cover/concealment in the area. I read the HiPS abilities as an automatic success on your "bluff" check and you don't have to take the -10 penalty to your stealth. That behavior is what I think was intended. Otherwise, you would have to turn invisible to not be seen. Physics man, physics.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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But to say that HiPS still needs some sort of cover to use stealth, when the ability specifically says that you can stealth while being observed, is not what the rules say at all.
I was agreeing with until this line. I guess I don't see how your interpretation of HiPS isn't invisibility if you agree with this line.
HiPS allows you to hide while being observed, at no point does it say it allows you to poof and every HiPS sets forth criteria for being able to hide (shadows, cover, etc.)
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Potato!
No Potato!
Potato!
No Potato!
GAAAAHHH
You guys are all right. You are getting caught up on terms.
With the Stealth skill any jackass can sneak around and do stuff unless he can be "observed".
With HiPS only a special jackass can stealth around and do stuff even when observed when your special "anti-observance" condition is around.
James Risner is calling that "cover and or concealment" you guys are saying "shadow" or "favored terrain". You are saying the exact same thing as far as I can tell.
But to say that HiPS still needs some sort of cover to use stealth, when the ability specifically says that you can stealth while being observed, is not what the rules say at all.I was agreeing with until this line. I guess I don't see how your interpretation of HiPS isn't invisibility if you agree with this line.
HiPS allows you to hide while being observed, at no point does it say it allows you to poof and every HiPS sets forth criteria for being able to hide (shadows, cover, etc.)
You're driving me up a wall!
Stop and think about what you're saying.
If you are being observed you CANNOT hide. If you FIND COVER you ARE NO LONGER OBSERVED and CAN hide.
If you have HiPS you CAN HIDE WHILE OBSERVED.
It's that simple.
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But to say that HiPS still needs some sort of cover to use stealth, when the ability specifically says that you can stealth while being observed, is not what the rules say at all.I was agreeing with until this line. I guess I don't see how your interpretation of HiPS isn't invisibility if you agree with this line.
HiPS allows you to hide while being observed, at no point does it say it allows you to poof and every HiPS sets forth criteria for being able to hide (shadows, cover, etc.)
You're driving me up a wall!
Stop and think about what you're saying.
If you are being observed you CANNOT hide. If you FIND COVER you ARE NO LONGER OBSERVED and CAN hide.
If you have HiPS you CAN HIDE WHILE OBSERVED.
It's that simple.
Sure. You can hide while being observed. Why don't you go into an empty room and have one of your friends try to hide from you. As they probably don't have HiPS, go ahead and close your eyes for a second to give them Concealment. Then open your eyes and look around the room. i bet you're able to see your friend quite clearly as he has nothing to hide behind. Normally, you cannot hide while being observed. This makes sense. If you move behind the chest of drawers while someone is watching you, they know you are behind the chest of drawers. However, with things like the bluff skill you can momentarily distract the viewer so that you can hide. You still need to be near enough to something to hide in though. HiPS seems to mean you can use your surroundings or some other natural/supernatural means to momentarily distract your enemy. In fact, you are so used to doing so that you automatically succeed at it. Favored terrain means that you know enough about your environment that you can take advantage of that momentary distraction to find a place to hide. The other HiPS abilities usually allow you to gain the concealment of shadows during the time your opponent is distracted. It's like in the movies where two men are in an alley and a dog barks. One of the men looks in that direction, but the other is used to such noises and uses the distraction to hide himself behind a garbage can or in an area of deeper shadow. When the man looks back from the momentary distraction, his opponent is nowhere to be seen....
Sure. You can hide while being observed. Why don't you go into an empty room and have one of your friends try to hide from you. As they probably don't have HiPS, go ahead and close your eyes for a second to give them Concealment. Then open your eyes and look around the room. i bet you're able to see your friend quite clearly as he has nothing to hide behind. Normally, you cannot hide while being observed. This makes sense. If you move behind the chest of drawers while someone is watching you, they know you are behind the chest of drawers. However, with things like the bluff skill you can momentarily distract the viewer so that you can hide. You still need to be near enough to something to hide in though. HiPS seems to mean you can use your surroundings or some other natural/supernatural means to momentarily distract your enemy. In fact, you are so used to doing so that you automatically succeed at it. Favored terrain means that you know enough about your environment that you can take advantage of that momentary distraction to find a place to hide. The other HiPS abilities usually allow you to gain the concealment of shadows during the time your opponent is distracted. It's...But to say that HiPS still needs some sort of cover to use stealth, when the ability specifically says that you can stealth while being observed, is not what the rules say at all.I was agreeing with until this line. I guess I don't see how your interpretation of HiPS isn't invisibility if you agree with this line.
HiPS allows you to hide while being observed, at no point does it say it allows you to poof and every HiPS sets forth criteria for being able to hide (shadows, cover, etc.)
You're driving me up a wall!
Stop and think about what you're saying.
If you are being observed you CANNOT hide. If you FIND COVER you ARE NO LONGER OBSERVED and CAN hide.
If you have HiPS you CAN HIDE WHILE OBSERVED.
It's that simple.
I just want to take a moment and look at the name of this ability real quick, we abbreviate it so often, maybe we've forgotten. Hide in PLAIN SIGHT.
Now that that's established, after reading your post I looked over the stealth skill again, and the line about the bluff check, I think, makes it possible to interpret this ability either way.
I honestly don't know which way to go now...
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You guys are making this way too hard.
In general. A guy is standing in this room. He is "hiding". Some other guy comes in, can see our hiding guy (because he is just standing in the room) observing guy goes "AAAHH hhaa" and points a lot or whatever. Hiding guy is no longer hiding, as he can be observed and observing guy who walked in made a good perception check versus the hiding guys "stealth while standing in middle of room" check...which is like stealth with ridiculous penalties)
Now. There is a big birthday cake, like 7 feet tall in this room.
Were our hiding guy to attempt to simply walk behind the cake while the other guy is staring at him, he can't. He is being observed. "Ah ha! You are merely stepping behind the cake" the observer guy would say. Epic Fail.
Insert bluff. "Look a pterodactyl!". Hiding guy rolls bluff really well. "Oh really? I LOVE pteryodactyls!" Our idiot observer replies, turning and thus NO LONGER OBSERVING. Our hider hides behind the cake with a great stealth roll. Our observer, chagrined from the lack of pterodactyls
turns and sees only the giant cake. "strange..." he says, " I could have sworn there was a guy in here...but I don't see him...only a giant cake..."
Now.
This is important.
Imagine our hiding guy has HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT: FAVORED TERRAIN: CAKE.
Guy comes in. He sees hiding guy standing in room next to cake. "Ah ha!" ,etc. Then. Through the use of incredibly awesome awareness of cake, the hiding guy rolls stealth. Hiding guy steps towards the cake and seems to disappear, assuming that the observing guy who was staring at hiding guy the whole time fails his perception check. That is how mighty our hiding guy is when he hides with cake. He can do it EVEN WHEN PEOPLE ARE WATCHING HIM. He can hide, IN PLAIN SIGHT, when cake is involved. Just because observing guy can't see him doesn't mean hiding guy is invisible. He is stealthed. By cake. Because he was trained by ancient cake masters to use cake that way.
Now. change cake to shadow. Or whatever.
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But I like cake. that sounds like the basis for a new class in the making. Maybe they should hold off the Advanced Player's Guide until they can have a proper discourse on the many merits of a cake based class...
I agree, and it lends itself well to the system. Craft: cake. Profession: cakemaker (more than just a "mere" baker). Hell he can make the source of his power, that makes for a pretty awesome character. Can mages just make magic? Well yes but not like cake.
Cake-Fu. Long Cake. Cakewalk. Infuse cake. Scribe cake. Craft Magic Cake.
I smell a new supplement...and cake...delicious!
Sure. You can hide while being observed. Why don't you go into an empty room and have one of your friends try to hide from you. As they probably don't have HiPS, go ahead and close your eyes for a second to give them Concealment.
Or just turn off the lights and close the blinds. You are simplifying this like a lab test. It reads like "Put subject 'A' in perfectly square room and have subject 'B' look for them."
Now, lets utilize a more suitable setting for a change shall we? Like a dark cave or the the middle of a prairie on a dark overcast night? Ever go out to the middle of the plains on a new moon and see how dark it really gets? Its pretty damn dark and you are not trying to "hide" in a small room with the lights on.
Then open your eyes and look around the room. i bet you're able to see your friend quite clearly as he has nothing to hide behind.
Obviously. Its a bad example you are using. Also, please stop trying to use real life examples to explain how something is or is not possible is a make believe fantasy game where the IMPOSSIBLE is quite capable of being done.
Normally, you cannot hide while being observed. This makes sense. If you move behind the chest of drawers while someone is watching you, they know you are behind the chest of drawers. However, with things like the bluff skill you can momentarily distract the viewer so that you can hide.
Ok, I think that most everyone who has posted here will agree with this. We all know what the stealth skill says in regards to what is required to use it. Cover OR concealment. Not both. I do agree with this statement though so no need to pitch in more common sense to it.
You still need to be near enough to something to hide in though.
If you will agree that stepping back into the shadows is hiding in them then we are on the same page. If not, then I feel that this is where the disagreement starts with most folks.
HiPS seems to mean you can use your surroundings or some other natural/supernatural means to momentarily distract your enemy. In fact, you are so used to doing so that you automatically succeed at it.
Negative ghost rider. No where does it imply or state that HiPS is a free distraction against your target. It simply means that you are so damn good at blending with the shadows that you merely need to step into one that is 10' away and you are allowed to attempt to camouflage yourself from your targets senses. Now I know that it is a hard concept for some folks to understand, but that is what it means.
Show me where it says otherwise and I'll concede the point but since no one can then we just have to agree to disagree on this special ability. FYI, the HiPS ability I use for my examples is that of the Shadow Dancer prestiege class and not the hunter favored terrain. I can see how folks are getting mixed signals from the points being made here over those two class abilities.
Favored terrain means that you know enough about your environment that you can take advantage of that momentary distraction to find a place to hide. The other HiPS abilities usually allow you to gain the concealment of shadows during the time your opponent is distracted. It's...
Again, distraction does not come into play. You are not getting a free natural 20 on your bluff check here. You are just skilled enough that you can "attempt" to do it even by being watched. Keep in mind I say attempt because even though the HiPS ability allows you to stealth while being observed, it does not guarantee that you are successful. It merely allows you to do it and ignore a core rule for a class specific situational rule. You can still fail hard at your stealth using HiPS.
Races with darkvision can still see you if you are still within the range of their sight no matter how high your roll is (again, this is going off the fact that a shadow dancer is merely stepping back into the shadows using HiPS and is not hiding behind anything.) Low light vision characters may still see you as well. If a caster drops a Daylight spell in the area you are almost certainly screwed out of using that ability.
So I have to ask this, why is it so much of a bad thing that HiPS does not require cover? Its not. Just use your head as a player and GM and you can get around it if its a real problem. Isn't that one of the aspects of this game is to overcome challenges? I believe so.
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Urg... are some of the posters really implying that just because the wording doesn't include '...from the people observing you', you cannot use stealth if someone (anyone at all) is observing -- even passively -- you or the square your PC is standing in (i.e. your location)? For example, if an old and deaf beggar looks at your PC on the street, you cannot use stealth against spies that you're following? And, since a busy city street likely has more than 20 people, it could be assumed that at least one of them is aware of your PC, hence rendering Stealth impossible against the rest of them? Could I state that my dwarven PC cannot be surprised by using stealth if I'm continuously glancing around in the dungeon and thus "observing" every square around me?
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
Is it just me or is that bold part there a suggestion more than it is a rule? After all I can't find creatures with the most type or subtype in the bestiary.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.Is it just me or is that bold part there a suggestion more than it is a rule? After all I can't find creatures with the most type or subtype in the bestiary.
The whole point being, with HiPS, and the HiPS circumstances in place, you CAN stealth while being observed.
@ A Man In Black: Yes, a "Stealth for Dummies" book would be a fantastic gift to the PF / 3.5 gaming world.
@ The OP: You are correct to my interpretation of the rules. HiPS would let you use Stealth as you move to your target, you would attack (Gaining Sneak Attack but becoming visible), then you move away again using Stealth. The -20 to Stealth for using Sniping rules does not in any way apply to this scenario, you are not sniping. That is not to say that other conditional Perception modifiers will not apply to anyone attempting a check.
To my knowledge there is not official ruling supporting or denying this. But the only possible room for argument in the scenario is whether or not you are allowed to use Stealth twice in the same Move Action because Spring Attack does not give you two Move Actions; it only splits your Move Action into two separate movements divided by an attack. However, as Stealth is not an action and is taken as part of a movement it would seem you could use it more than once under the circumstances.
@ All:
1) Nowhere does it say if you move you leave Stealth. In fact the Stealth rules specifically state you can move while using Stealth. It specifically states the few circumstances in which using Stealth is impossible and those are attacking, running, and charging. As long as you maintain cover/concealment you can maintain Stealth. In an area of dim light or similar condition even a Rogue without HiPS could use Stealth to sneak up on an enemy and gain Sneak Attack, he would not however, be able to use Stealth after the attack unless he first made a successful Bluff attempt. Dim light provides cover.
2) Most versions of HiPS explicitly state you may hide even while being observed and even with nothing to hide behind (as long as you meet some other requirement, IE: being within 10' of a shadow). The only version of HiPS that does not mention being able to hide without cover/concealment is the Ranger version, but that is because they get the Camouflage ability 5 levels before they get HiPS and the Camouflage ability specifically allows them to hide without cover/concealment in their favored terrain.
3) Don't forget that most versions of HiPS are (SU) abilities which specifically state they are magical in nature. The only version that is not is the Ranger version and the version granted to Shadow Creatures from 3.5 and both of those are (EX) abilities. So this is not something the average scrub can do. Each version has specific prerequisites to function. Shadowdancer needs to be within 10' of an area of dim light, Assassin needs to be within 10' of some shadow, and Ranger needs to be in his favored Terrain.
4) HiPS is not equal to Sniping. They are two very different things and the -20 to hide after an attack while Sniping should never be applied to someone using HiPS.
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Here is a thread on the use of HiPS:
Hide in Plain Sight.
@ A Man In Black: Yes, a "Stealth for Dummies" book would be a fantastic gift to the PF / 3.5 gaming world.
@ The OP: You are correct to my interpretation of the rules. HiPS would let you use Stealth as you move to your target, you would attack (Gaining Sneak Attack but becoming visible), then you move away again using Stealth. The -20 to Stealth for using Sniping rules does not in any way apply to this scenario, you are not sniping. That is not to say that other conditional Perception modifiers will not apply to anyone attempting a check.
To my knowledge there is not official ruling supporting or denying this. But the only possible room for argument in the scenario is whether or not you are allowed to use Stealth twice in the same Move Action because Spring Attack does not give you two Move Actions; it only splits your Move Action into two separate movements divided by an attack. However, as Stealth is not an action and is taken as part of a movement it would seem you could use it more than once under the circumstances.
@ All:
1) Nowhere does it say if you move you leave Stealth. In fact the Stealth rules specifically state you can move while using Stealth. It specifically states the few circumstances in which using Stealth is impossible and those are attacking, running, and charging. As long as you maintain cover/concealment you can maintain Stealth. In an area of dim light or similar condition even a Rogue without HiPS could use Stealth to sneak up on an enemy and gain Sneak Attack, he would not however, be able to use Stealth after the attack unless he first made a successful Bluff attempt. Dim light provides cover.
2) Most versions of HiPS explicitly state you may hide even while being observed and even with nothing to hide behind (as long as you meet some other requirement, IE: being within 10' of a shadow). The only version of HiPS that does not mention being able to hide without cover/concealment is the Ranger version, but that is because they get...
Shadowlord is correct.
However, I would like to conjecture that since you stealth as part of your move action, the GM in my game in which I do play a shadowdancer, have come to a decision that if I did have Spring Attack the process would be one stealth check for the full move. I would roll my stealth check, move, attack, retreat. The initial move up to the opponent would have no penalty save the ones already there. I would attack, if I'm unobserved, I get Sneak Attack (10 Rogue/4 Shadowdancer atm). Then I move away. Note: I do not roll another stealth check as this is technically still one move action thus one stealth roll. Therefore, we take my stealth roll I made earlier and apply an appropriate penalty (not sniping but an appropriate one) since I just ganked a guy in the back and he more than likely felt that... :)
However, I would like to conjecture that since you stealth as part of your move action, the GM in my game in which I do play a shadowdancer, have come to a decision that if I did have Spring Attack the process would be one stealth check for the full move. I would roll my stealth check, move, attack, retreat. The initial move up to the opponent would have no penalty save the ones already there. I would attack, if I'm unobserved, I get Sneak Attack (10 Rogue/4 Shadowdancer atm). Then I move away. Note: I do not roll another stealth check as this is technically still one move action thus one stealth roll. Therefore, we take my stealth roll I made earlier and apply an appropriate penalty (not sniping but an appropriate one) since I just ganked a guy in the back and he more than likely felt that... :)
What type/how much of a penalty?
I'm just curious how you would deal with this, I might be going shadowdancer soon and I kinda like the idea of this. I'm having a hard time not giving a "you just got stabbed in the kidney" hefty penalty (I used the -20 because that seems like the right amount, and it's precedented in a stealthy attack in snipe).
The other point is that the Stealth ability says "it's impossible to stealth when attacking, running, or charging." HiPS removes the "being observed" restriction, but not the "attacking, running, or charging" restriction. I have a hard time just saying "no, you can't use all those feats and abilities like that" because it seems like it should be possible. The typical perception check modifier usually pales in comparison to a stealth check modifier, and I have a harder time making it too difficult for an opponent to find someone who just cut him across the chest/back/arm etc.
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The other point is that the Stealth ability says "it's impossible to stealth when attacking, running, or charging." HiPS removes the "being observed" restriction, but not the "attacking, running, or charging" restriction. I have a hard time just saying "no, you can't use all those feats and abilities like that" because it seems like it should be possible. The typical perception check modifier usually pales in comparison to a stealth check modifier, and I have a harder time making it too difficult for an opponent to find someone who just cut him across the chest/back/arm etc.
I think you are getting caught on something here.
Normally you cant move-attack-move.
Spring attack overrides.
Normally you can't hide while observed.
HiPS overrides.
Were your DM to rule that you can use HiPs while Spring Attacking, then the penalty makes sense in this context...but if you like it a little cleaner I offer the follow:
Stealth check and move - attack - Stealth check and move w/penalty for stabbing
The "use the initial role minus penalty" thing is just a way to truncate the math and action to get the "game on". It keeps you from having to roll dice over and over from the same bundle of actions. If you think of it that way then you are not "stealthing while attacking" you are stealthing, attacking, stealthing...and in my mind at the point that you have sunk the feats, skills, class level and gained the Presitge to do all that...well...have fun.
1) Nowhere does it say if you move you leave Stealth. In fact the Stealth rules specifically state you can move while using Stealth. It specifically states the few circumstances in which using Stealth is impossible and those are attacking, running, and charging. As long as you maintain cover/concealment you can maintain Stealth. In an area of dim light or similar condition even a Rogue without HiPS could use Stealth to sneak up on an enemy and gain Sneak Attack, he would not however, be able to use Stealth after the attack unless he first made a successful Bluff attempt. Dim light provides cover.
Just a quick comment on this. In dim light you don't have cover but you can hide.
You cannot hide in bright light or normal light unless you have cover.
Also, you cannot hide within 60' of a creature with darkvision at all unless you have cover.
That's the normal bits.... then it gets really strange and I think there are hundreds of ways to read the rules about sniping, HIPS, camoflage, etc.
@ A Man In Black: Yes, a "Stealth for Dummies" book would be a fantastic gift to the PF / 3.5 gaming world.
@ The OP: You are correct to my interpretation of the rules. HiPS would let you use Stealth as you move to your target, you would attack (Gaining Sneak Attack but becoming visible), then you move away again using Stealth. The -20 to Stealth for using Sniping rules does not in any way apply to this scenario, you are not sniping. That is not to say that other conditional Perception modifiers will not apply to anyone attempting a check.
To my knowledge there is not official ruling supporting or denying this. But the only possible room for argument in the scenario is whether or not you are allowed to use Stealth twice in the same Move Action because Spring Attack does not give you two Move Actions; it only splits your Move Action into two separate movements divided by an attack. However, as Stealth is not an action and is taken as part of a movement it would seem you could use it more than once under the circumstances.
@ All:
1) Nowhere does it say if you move you leave Stealth. In fact the Stealth rules specifically state you can move while using Stealth. It specifically states the few circumstances in which using Stealth is impossible and those are attacking, running, and charging. As long as you maintain cover/concealment you can maintain Stealth. In an area of dim light or similar condition even a Rogue without HiPS could use Stealth to sneak up on an enemy and gain Sneak Attack, he would not however, be able to use Stealth after the attack unless he first made a successful Bluff attempt. Dim light provides cover.
2) Most versions of HiPS explicitly state you may hide even while being observed and even with nothing to hide behind (as long as you meet some other requirement, IE: being within 10' of a shadow). The only version of HiPS that does not mention being able to hide without cover/concealment is the Ranger version, but that is because they get...
Thank your for that insightful post! I agree 100% with this reply.
Just a quick comment on this. In dim light you don't have cover but you can hide.
This was a mistake, I meant to say concealment, sorry.
You cannot hide in bright light or normal light unless you have cover.
Correct; there is some argument on whether or not this was a mistake in the wording of the lighting rules, but I agree with the rules as written in this section.
I do, however, maintain that anything which makes you impossible to see (IE: Most Total Concealment) would allow you to use Stealth in daylight due to the fact that you are, for all intents and purposes, invisible.
Also, you cannot hide within 60' of a creature with darkvision at all unless you have cover.
This is absolutely true in regards to the basic Stealth skill itself. Also, you would need cover to hide from low-light vision in some cases as well because:
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
However, I think that most versions of HiPS would override this. My stance is this: (This is not RAW to my knowledge but it is my opinion)
1) Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS is a (SU) ability which is by definition magical in nature. I don't really don't think that Darkvision (EX) is supposed to be able to overcome HiPS (SU). In addition a character with this version of HiPS is perfectly capable of disappearing in daylight as long as he is within 10' of an area of dim light/some shadow. So if they can use this magical ability to hide in daylight from creatures with normal vision I see no reason why it should not also hide them from creatures with Darkvision. I also think this portion of the DV rules applies:
It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be.
HiPS (SU) is a magical effect and therefore I feel it would fall under this subset of DV rules.
2) Ranger HiPS/Camouflage (EX) are not based on the presence of shadows at all and so would be utterly unaffected by Darkvision. If a Ranger could hide in a field in the daylight from creatures with normal vision then he can certainly hide in the darkness from a creature with Darkvision. He isn't using the shadows, he is using terrain.
3) I think that the HiPS (EX) given to Shadow Creatures from 3.5 is probably spoiled by DV as both are (EX) abilities and the Shadow Creature's HiPS relies on being inside some shadow.