jav's page

Brodiggan Gale wrote:

James Risner wrote:

The second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.

I'm not certain I agree with this interpretation of the stealth rules.

More precisely, if you move and leave your cover/concealment object you become unhidden. If (by some odd chance) you can manage to maintain yourself behind cover up to the target, then you should be able to Spring Attack. I didn't account for the rare condition of some wall you can hide behind that takes you to your target.

Brodiggan Gale wrote:

James Risner wrote:

You can't just stand still and Hide even with HiPS.

Again, this isn't supported by the rules text ... it would seem to negate the need for cover and concealment as well.

Well we will have to agree to disagree. Without a line saying it negates the cover you are taking the "it doesn't say I can't" position. It doesn't say you can't take actions while dead either. It doesn't say 20th Fighters can't cast Wish.

Yes but even if we subscribe to your very limited interpretation of what Stealth does, which would immensely devalue stealth and wouldn't allow a rogue to sneak up on a enemy without magical assistance. My original question involved hide in plain sight. Which allows you to hide without cover or concealment, it states that very clearly in the description of the ability.

So even with your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with hips wouldn't de-stealth just because he's in the open as long as he has a shadow 10ft away from him, because he no longer need cover or concealment.

And if that's the case he should be able to move up to enemy without de-stealthing, attack with sneak attack (provided he hasn't been spotted) and then finish his movement and re-stealth, provided he is still 10ft away from a shadow.

jav wrote:

Also the language seems a murky. It states if the victim recognizes the assassin as a enemy he cannot be death attacked. So a battle breaks out and I hide for and observe a enemy for 3 rounds, I can't death attack him, because he knows I mean him harm?

Yeah, this bit confuses me too.

You are making a sneak attack first and foremost. That implies that your enemy doesn't see the attack, or cannot defend himself properly from it. If the target detects you, you cannot death attack him.

I would think there is no way he can "recognize you as an enemy" if he cannot detect you. That should be implicit.

So then I ask when could you possibly sneak attack someone who recognizes you (which implicitly means he is aware of you and can certainly see you well enough to recognize you - if he can't, well, then he can't recognzie you).

The only answer that comes readily to mind is flanking. He may very well know you are an assassin flanking him, and can see you plain as day. However, the Death Attack says you can use it when flanking, so this guess is shot down by the RAW.

I could not off the top of my head think of any other time someone can regognize you (which means he can see you) that you can still take a Sneak/Death attack against him (other than all the obvious, like he's awake but tied up, paralyzed, Hold Person, etc., but you can Sneak/Death attack on all those cases too).

And then it hit me.

Flat-footed.

So you're walking down a hallway. Your victim is walking toward you. He thinks you belong there (a friend, a servant, whatever) so he's not afraid of you. You walk slowly so you can study him for three rounds. As you pass him, you quick-draw your dagger and death attack him. He can see you and has a chance to recognize you, but doesn't recognize that you're an enemy, so the attack works because he's flatfooted and denied his DEX.

Still, even this is obvious because if you're creeping...

Yes that makes sense what your saying. If that where not the case later abilities like swift death wouldn't have any value. Because after you botch the first attempt what is the point of having a second death attack ready if you cannot use it. Thanks for the help.

jav wrote:

So in theory from hiding you could move then sneak attack then move and re-stealth

The second you move you become unhidden, so no Sneak Attack on a Spring Attack.

Now in the Stealth skill description they state "Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action" so I think I'm reasoning is fair as far as that's concerned. I just uncertain if I'm following the rules correctly on the re-hiding after the sneak attack.

I think what James was saying in that other thread was something like this:

There is almost no such thing as a thrown weapon. Shuriken, bolas, maybe javelins. Not much else.

What you really have is a bunch of melee weapons. Almost every weapon ever invented (that doesn't fire a projectile) is meant to be held in your hand while you swing, smash, or poke your enemy with it.

Some, like longswords, maces, and battleaxes, are really not easily or accurately thrown. Others, like knives, spears, hand axes, etc., are both easy and accurate to throw.

So, you have melee weapons that can be thrown. Doing so means making a ranged attack.

Now, can the assassin throw a melee weapon as a Death Attack?

Technically, the rules are not specific on this, but I think it's fairly clear that the intent was to make a melee attack. I say this for a few reasons:

1. They said "with a melee weapon". It's far more likely they meant "make a melee attack" than they meant "make a melee attack or throw a melee weapon". I don't think anyone would likely every mean the latter. I think the author was looking for a convenient way to say "sneak attack" and "melee attack" in the same sentence and thought "make a sneak melee attack" sounded weird, so he trid a different way that is imprecise and ambiguous, but not meant to allow ranged death attacks.
2. I don't think throwing a hand-axe at someone's jugular 30' away seems any more deadly than firing a crossbow bolt from the same distance. Probably less likely to kill them, actually, unless you're one of those circus performeres who could split a cockroach in half with a trowing axe at 20 paces (and if you are, then I would still say you could have trained with a crossbow for half the time to be twice as deadly). So why in the world would the rule really allow you to make a death attack at 30' by throwing a melee weapon like a hand axe, but you can't do it with a crossbow or a shuriken?
3. In conjunction with #2, I think if they wanted you to make ranged death attacks, they...

Yes I suppose doesn't make sense upon reflection, they do place a limiter on range by stating you must succeed in a sneak attack as well. (which as we know is only 30ft) But still if they intended thrown weapons be used in conjunction with Death attack they would of expanded on it in the text, and made it more clear.

It initially made sense to me because the thrown dagger is such a staple of rogue's equipment and the later abilities like quite death it is a little more reasonable for to visualize a assassin throwing a dagger and avoiding detection than a heavy crossbow or short bow. But again I think you have the right of it, the intent of the ability is for a melee attack only.

Perhaps I just miss 3.5 assassin who could shoot PC's from 60ft away with Death attack.

Also the language seems a murky. It states if the victim recognizes the assassin as a enemy he cannot be death attacked. So a battle breaks out and I hide for and observe a enemy for 3 rounds, I can't death attack him, because he knows I mean him harm?

So the Hide in plain sight class ability is fairly straight forward. In short it lets allows you to use the stealth skill without having to make distraction using the bluff skill or having concealment even when being observed. But when in interacts with feats like Spring Attack it becomes a little more confusing. The feats permit to move both before and after the attack.

So in theory from hiding you could move then sneak attack then move and re-stealth and just repeat this until there dead or they manage to spot you. And since your not trying to maintain obscure location like in the Stealth skill description of sniping, since your constantly moving and hiding it seems like the -20 penalty does not apply.

Does anyone know if there been a official ruling on this in the past or has it yet to be addressed?

So in a previous thread concerning thrown weapons. James Jacobs stated that as far as the rules are concerned thrown weapons are technically classified as melee weapons despite the fact that they can be hurled. Now under Death Attack description for Assassin it states that in order to make a Death Attack a assassin must study his victim for 3 rounds and succeed in making a sneak attack with a Melee weapon.

So does that mean I can make a Death attack with a thrown weapon from 30ft away? Or is that against the intent of the rule?