what if we make this a private forum just for players of the game? 5-6 people or whatever?
I think that is the fairer road to take. DMs are going to err on the side of actually using the module. I think its appropriate that online games serve players in them and then disappear.
The cumulative affect of people playing modules in open forums would make finding spoilers pretty easy. I don't think it would affect module sales so much as spoil some people's fun.
btw. I use Fantasy Grounds 2 for this and its great.
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I would add that when in doubt err on the side of caution. I would not present my tabletop players with npc stat blocks or monster stat blocks, or any of the other behind the scenes stuff, so I feel no need to do so in a pbp. I would present them with exactly what I would give my home game players, maps and descriptive text.
Chief Technical Officer
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For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:
What he said.
Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."
I've run play-by-post games, and it doesn't hurt to have the forum locked behind a password, either.
What he said.
Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."
It makes me feel stupid, but I've breached this condition. Pretty obvious really and I can't believe I didnt think to ask. Sincere apologies to Paizo/artists/etc...
[/mea culpa]Thanks to the OP for pointing this out to me.
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For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:
What he said.
Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."
I know the community use policy I was trying to get some clarification. It doesn't seem cut and dry to me and I am sure I am not the only one.
So I can't use maps in a private forum? One only the players can see? Isn't that the point of the maps. Not everyone has the lifestyle to be able to play tabletop and not everyone is in areas where it is even possible. I don't see how it is different to play a private game online than a tabletop game. With all of the effects put on top of the maps, its not like anyone can use them for other purposes.
Also as was mentioned, there is no need to post NPC stats or anything, but I do like to use images/portraits. But that isn't allowed either? I just don't understand, if no one else can see them. Why?
I think the issue with posting to a forum private or public is that forums can't be controlled the same way you can the table in your living room. To some extent when something that is Paizo's property is posted in a private forum it's still subject to being hacked.
Showing maps on my table or images is generally from the one copy I have and any copies made I can responsibly collect back. Hacking a forum for stuff posted there be it private or public is not that hard. And once its out everyone has it and there is no control on how far or how often it can be copied or distributed. Some how I doubt the hacking scene for maps and character images is that robust but it could happen.
I think Paizo is generous in saying you can interpret their items for your posting purposes but don't post the actual images. They are trying to protect their intellectual property and I can't blame them for that. They seem to bend as much as they can in this area for us their customers.
I think the bottom line is stuff posted in cyberspace is never truly private not like your dining room table, so Paizo takes the steps they need to to protect themselves.
I don't think that there are that many hackers out there looking to hack gaming forums and steal copies of PnP RPG maps. That said, Paizo has the responsibility to take efforts to protect their intellectual property, and this is one of those efforts.
I share your frustration guys. Personally, I don't think you can use modules without sharing the maps. Most other stuff might be too much work to use but maps and layouts are organizational.
On the other hand, your homes etc... are not regularly trolled by google to create a catalog of available images for anyone to use.
I think in fairness we have to be aware that this is a problem for a publisher. It may not be as bad as loosing all online game sales but it is their right to control their copyright.
Is your public forum ever purged?
Is it private to just your players?
Do you remove Pathfinder game content from prying eyes? at the end? ever?
All of these are realistic courteous things you can do to support the company, regardless of what content you post.
S
I have a truly private gaming table. Players don't even keep maps etc... unless they are cheating. That's one of the design features of Fantasy Grounds.
I understand Doug Davison (the owner of the program) is trying to work a license out with Pathfinder. It would be a good idea. (hint hint).
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Chief Technical Officer
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We've always said that we don't mind GMs sharing necessary materials with their gaming group. The key phrase there is "with your gaming group," and not "with your gaming group and maybe some random people outside your gaming group who might happen to access your website." Keep it secure. Also, note that passing entire PDFs around, even in private, is *not* ok. After all, when your buddy posts your PDF for the rest of the world to see, it's your personal identifying information that we'll find. (Yes, this has happened—and more than once.)
When it comes to *public* sharing of information, please stick with the Community Use Policy as written.
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Well I wrote a nice reply, but these crappy forums ate it. So I will say this. Your reasoning is ridiculous. My house can be broken into just as easily and anything can be hacked. To say you are protecting things to the best of your ability should suffice. I am not posting the module, I just want the maps, I can even forgo the argue about the other images. I can describe everything else. I can't describe a grid and for me to have to recreate a grid map is ludicrous. I no longer tabletop game, all of my gaming is online.
Sorry if my reply is a bit raw, the other one was eaten and in a much nicer tone. That's what I get for previewing it and trying to make it sound diplomatic.
No offense taken I think the best bet is make your forum as secure as possible. Many people assume a forum is safe and don't take the care to really make sure all the doors are locked. I would disagree a home is as easy to break into. Working on a university campus I see people run simple programs that require less effort then picking up a rock to smash your window. So unless you leave your doors unlocked your home is somewhat more secure. It requires a rare set of skills to enter a home unnoticed it requires significantly less skills to do the same to an electronic forum and as noted earlier search engines basically provide a map to where items can be found. There's no inventory available to whats in your home to make it a target that alone increases your homes safety vs your forum, unless you leave your valuables on a window sill. I think Paizo asks us to do our best and making your forum as secure as possible goes a long way towards doing your best.
I would point out that even if your forum is secure, you also need to worry about the image host, since most forums don't have resources for hosting large images or other files, and Photobucket or the like are very public.
Customer goodwill\responsibility is really the best prerequisite.
S
I think that is the fairer road to take. DMs are going to err on the side of actually using the module. I think its appropriate that online games serve players in them and then disappear.
what if we make this a private forum just for players of the game? 5-6 people or whatever?
I disagree. I enjoy reading PbPs, for the RP element. So public PbPs would be missed.
Not to mention that WotC didn't whine about PbPs, and if Hasbro can tolerate them, Paizo should be able to, easily.Finally: Most of the PFRPG is already available on the many SRDs out there. Not much rule stuff is going out on the PbPs, so I fail to see the issue.
What about just posting the map as private? That way the rest of the thread is open for reading, but the map artwork remains among the players of the module.
By the way, I am extremely pleased with Paizo's community user policy the availability of pdfs of rule books and the PRD: all of which make me more than happy to contribute financially by subscribing and buying Paizo products. These are the main contributing factors leading me to switching over to Pathfinder (not to mention the artwork and the well thought out rules).
the issue is that paizo makes a lot of their money on the modules and APs. If enough information is given in the PbPs so that someone else can run the game without having bought the material, Paizo ends up losing money. And that is what we call a "Bad Thing".
I don't think it happens often enough to compile the module. Just maps, no statistics. Again, if WotC was fine with it, Paizo should be.
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the issue is that paizo makes a lot of their money on the modules and APs. If enough information is given in the PbPs so that someone else can run the game without having bought the material, Paizo ends up losing money. And that is what we call a "Bad Thing".I don't think it happens often enough to compile the module. Just maps, no statistics. Again, if WotC was fine with it, Paizo should be.
Paizo is much more AP/Module dependent than WoTC. WoTC made most of it's money through licensing/splat books and the like. Paizo makes the vast majority of it's money through APs and Modules. And I believe I remember reading that isn't going to change and that it was there business model to begin with. So, while WotC might not care about a module or 5 getting pretty much leaked for no cost, it hurts Paizo a lot more.
It would hurt me to find that Paizo had become so paranoid that they would take away a beloved feature: Open PbPs, that anybody could visit and watch. Paizo's greatest strength has always been friendliness to its customers.
For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:
What he said.
Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."
This is the one that throws me. If I do a map in which every pixel is original, the colour choice is to my own taste, etc., but the buildings on my map are in the same places that they would be on Paizo's map would that be substantially similar? If every 5' square on my map contains the same features would that look substantially similar? I ask because I sincerely want to respect Paizo's intellectual property while running PbPs on this site.
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This is the one that throws me. If I do a map in which every pixel is original, the colour choice is to my own taste, etc., but the buildings on my map are in the same places that they would be on Paizo's map would that be substantially similar? If every 5' square on my map contains the same features would that look substantially similar? I ask because I sincerely want to respect Paizo's intellectual property while running PbPs on this site.For strict legal requirements, look at the bottom of the contents page in your module/whatever. This splits down what's OGL and what's Paizo's Intellectual property. These can be used in line with this:
What he said.
Also, please note that while the Community Use Policy specifically allows you to "descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games," it also forbids you from using "artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials."
Yeah this is the area where interpretation becomes a matter of question substantially functions much as reasonable does in legal lingo. Its open to interpretation because it is not clearly defined. I think the issue would be that artistic flair. Paizo's art is distinct so that is what they are most likely trying to protect. My guess is this is to address where someone might scan the image and alter it very slightly to try and get away with one. I don't believe they are trying to prevent the game content of the map or else I would think they would say you couldn't post interpretations of it period. So your interpretation of the map should differ enough at least that's my take
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Chief Technical Officer
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This is the one that throws me. If I do a map in which every pixel is original, the colour choice is to my own taste, etc., but the buildings on my map are in the same places that they would be on Paizo's map would that be substantially similar? If every 5' square on my map contains the same features would that look substantially similar? I ask because I sincerely want to respect Paizo's intellectual property while running PbPs on this site.
We don't mind you essentially redrawing our maps. We just don't want you redistributing our actual cartography.
Thread necromancy time!
So, I set up my own domain, forum (private), and web-based map (also private), SSL key, etc to run my first PBP game, and beta test my web-based D&D tabletop for play-by-post.
There are 6 users on my site, all of which are my players. I actually spent about 4 hours (im slow :) doing the first map (Oleg's of Kingmaker)in MapTool so I didn't run afoul of the paizo agreements. Sure, you might hack my domain or my forums, but at that rate, can't anyone hack my computer/email/sniff wireless and grab my PDF for that matter? If I view it on my PS3 in the living room I'm sharing it on my local network -- so theres always some degree of insecurity. I agree that there are varying levels of what people deem "private"... But I think if theres no way for external users to get to it (and you do everything in your power to protect it), it would be a HUGE boon for me to copy say Oleg's Tavern into a jpeg and throw it up on my PBP system (Once its in as an image, can add minis, and scale the map properly so that varying map resolutions all jive with the system, on the web so my setup time is almost 0 if I can cut and paste an image).
I also understand that you guys essentially gain nothing by allowing DM's to do this, but I think at the same token you must realistically expect for example, a in-person DM to have handouts,etc (Wanted posters from the PDF, a battle map, etc) where pieces of Adventure path are used by tabletop DM's to enhance the experience.
I'm pretty happy with Vic's reply... too bad I didnt see this sooner :)
No offense taken I think the best bet is make your forum as secure as possible. Many people assume a forum is safe and don't take the care to really make sure all the doors are locked. I would disagree a home is as easy to break into. Working on a university campus I see people run simple programs that require less effort then picking up a rock to smash your window. So unless you leave your doors unlocked your home is somewhat more secure. It requires a rare set of skills to enter a home unnoticed it requires significantly less skills to do the same to an electronic forum and as noted earlier search engines basically provide a map to where items can be found. There's no inventory available to whats in your home to make it a target that alone increases your homes safety vs your forum, unless you leave your valuables on a window sill. I think Paizo asks us to do our best and making your forum as secure as possible goes a long way towards doing your best.Well I wrote a nice reply, but these crappy forums ate it. So I will say this. Your reasoning is ridiculous. My house can be broken into just as easily and anything can be hacked. To say you are protecting things to the best of your ability should suffice. I am not posting the module, I just want the maps, I can even forgo the argue about the other images. I can describe everything else. I can't describe a grid and for me to have to recreate a grid map is ludicrous. I no longer tabletop game, all of my gaming is online.
Sorry if my reply is a bit raw, the other one was eaten and in a much nicer tone. That's what I get for previewing it and trying to make it sound diplomatic.