My question: Do you see bonobos and chimps eating meat?As opposed to our ability to process raw vegatation with our single stomach, lol.Actually, there's a popular theory that humans were not meant to be omnivores, but herbivores. Reasons: Our teeth, for one. For another, our inability to eat meat raw. Finally, our slowness. There are a buncha other reasons, too, but I can't remember them. :D
When it comes down to it, because of all the resources and chemicals that go into meat production (grain for the animals, water for the animals, water to raise the grain, pesticides for the grain, antibiotics for the animals, oil to transport all these resources, the amount of forest that gets destroyed to create grazing land), going vegan is one of the best things a single individual can do to help the planet, let alone their own bodies.Then why did we evolve as omnivores?
** spoiler omitted **
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Um...LOOK! DISTRACTION! *Changes arguments*
Look, all I'm saying is that...uh... *reads from script*if everybody was a vegan, the environment would benefit from the lackage of billions of cows everywhere.
Mmmm...cabbage.
Just increasing my post count.
Just increasing my post count.
Hey! That's my line!
Well some things to consider:
Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet
Then there are issues:
Vegan parents on trial for baby's severe malnutrition
How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
Vegan Parents Guilty Of Starving Son
Not to suggest that it is impossible to raise a child in a vegan style, but it is more difficult as you have to manage the proper nutrition more, especially if you are moron and don't even breastfeed the child when appropriate.
Eating meat is easier for dumb/lazy/busy people to help their children to develop properly. Once those children are adults, if they want to become vegan and be responsible for their own welfare, then that is a legitimate choice.
Another thing to consider:
Dead Zone Diet: Why Fertilizers Are Taking Fish off the Menu
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Addressing the first point: We need a strong UN-like international code/task force to make all countries conform, and have sanctions for those who fail to meet the standards.Yep. We need another organization that accomplishes nothing, and blames Israel for everything.
Exactly what we need.
The World Health Organization is actually pretty useful. Also all those Peacekeepers that we don't have to provide for our global
'police the world' agenda. I'd say we're getting our money's worth for all those UN dues we haven't paid. :)I know it's trendy to rag on the UN, but they are pretty darn nice to have around. Beats not having any venue for global communication, commerce and treaty adjudication and having to go to war and lose thousands of US lives every time we want to do something on the international stage.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Another thing to consider:
Dead Zone Diet: Why Fertilizers Are Taking Fish off the Menu
Since getting our protein from meat requires feeding the meat, I'm not sure that this one supports your argument. Wouldn't going vegetarian (or even going chickenatarian) result in less fertilizer use?
Eating meat is easier for dumb/lazy/busy people to help their children to develop properly. Once those children are adults, if they want to become vegan and be responsible for their own welfare, then that is a legitimate choice.
Well put. I certainly wouldn't force it on my children (or anyone else, for that matter), but it does offer some real benefits (many of which are environmental) when done correctly.
Not my cup of tea, though. While I can see being vegetarian, vegan is too far (for me).
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Since getting our protein from meat requires feeding the meat, I'm not sure that this one supports your argument. Wouldn't going vegetarian (or even going chickenatarian) result in less fertilizer use?Another thing to consider:
Dead Zone Diet: Why Fertilizers Are Taking Fish off the Menu
Not exactly. In fact, if everyone went vegan it could even result in more fertalizer use as more vegtables and fruit would need to be grown. If you were to advocate a strictly organic vegan diet then it could also result in more deforestation in order to provide the needed land for crops. One of my professors did a multiyear research project on it for the government. Unfortunately his work has not been posted on line as of now.
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I wish they'd hurry up and make tissue cloning and vat-growth feasible, so that they could take a cell sample from Bessie the Cow's grain-fed rump and grow it into vast sheets of steak. Bessie could die of old age in the pasture, while 10,000 people eat steaks and burgers grown from her flesh every night.
Supermodels could strut down the catwalk in mink coats that trail behind them, all grown from a single mink in one piece, with that particular mink still living in a cage somewhere, being trotted out as an 'animal ambassador' in advertising for the company that sells his fur.
It's not economically feasible yet, but we've already begun culturing tissue for burn victims and the like, so the technology exists, it just needs to become mature. As with all industry, eventually, vat-grown cultured meat will be cheaper and cleaner than 'free-range' animals. Some whacky companies might even make a big show of 'retiring' lines of product when the animal donor dies of natural causes, 'out of respect for the animal.' (While covertly selling off the remaining cell lines to other companies or countries, less concerned with appearances.)
People who get off on being all edgy and whatever can still purchase the more expensive slaughterhouse product and brag about their 'not being PC,' or whatever makes them feel special while opening their mouth and displaying half-chewed meat to gross people out like the overgrown frat boys they are, while those who have cultural reasons to continue raising (or hunting) and slaughtering animals (Native Americans, Amish, sports enthusiasts, etc.) could do so normally, since it wouldn't be illegal to butcher animals, just unnecessary and more expensive than the alternative. There might even be an outgrowth of the 'canned hunt' places, where suburban bubbas can go pay a couple of hundred bucks to shoot an animal in a cage and then have it cooked up for them, so that they can pretend they know what it's like to hunt for their own food and be 'rugged individualists.'
Save a tree, ride a witch today!
But getting serious, we -need- meat if on the mere grounds that proteins of vegetable origin are comparatively poor in quality so yes, if you try to raise your children on a strictly vegetarian diet you -will- have a case of malnutrition, and criminal charges of child neglect.
Homo Sapiens have pointy canine teeth as a result of more than two million years of evolution eating -meat-, our organisms -need- animal protein to properly develop and let no (hugely misinformed)vegans tell you otherwise, the average vegetarian has an organism with lots of deficiencies (I've got more than my share of doctors in the family to certify this, including two dietists).
A solution, though, would be as Set said, if only tissue cloning could be made cheap enough for livestock to become unnecessary...
Well some things to consider:
Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet
Then there are issues:
Vegan parents on trial for baby's severe malnutrition
How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
Vegan Parents Guilty Of Starving Son
Not to suggest that it is impossible to raise a child in a vegan style, but it is more difficult as you have to manage the proper nutrition more, especially if you are moron and don't even breastfeed the child when appropriate.
Eating meat is easier for dumb/lazy/busy people to help their children to develop properly. Once those children are adults, if they want to become vegan and be responsible for their own welfare, then that is a legitimate choice.
Another thing to consider:
Dead Zone Diet: Why Fertilizers Are Taking Fish off the Menu
I am not saying that we should not give our children milk or suchwhat, that seems to me a bit extreme. It's clearly how we're designed, while the meat eating thing is debatable.
However, if we cut down on the amount of people eating cow products, I'm pretty sure things would improve.|
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However, if we cut down on the amount of people eating cow products, I'm pretty sure things would improve.
On the one hand, you can raise 20 goats on the land it takes to support a single cow (and if you want to milk the cow, you should still supplement it with grain, which the goats won't need). Goats, in my experience, are also easier to milk, and much easier to butcher at home.
On the other hand, goat meat is nasty and goat milk is hideous, managing to make even sugary cereal taste foul.
I'll wait for my cloned beef. :)
On the one hand, you can raise 20 goats on the land it takes to support a single cow (and if you want to milk the cow, you should still supplement it with grain, which the goats won't need). Goats, in my experience, are also easier to milk, and much easier to butcher at home.
On the other hand, goat meat is nasty and goat milk is hideous, managing to make even sugary cereal taste foul.
I'll wait for my cloned beef. :)
I'll take your share of the goat meat then. It's tasty in stew as I recall.
I'll take your share of the goat meat then. It's tasty in stew as I recall.
On the one hand, you can raise 20 goats on the land it takes to support a single cow (and if you want to milk the cow, you should still supplement it with grain, which the goats won't need). Goats, in my experience, are also easier to milk, and much easier to butcher at home.
On the other hand, goat meat is nasty and goat milk is hideous, managing to make even sugary cereal taste foul.
I'll wait for my cloned beef. :)
Back off, it's mine!
The only disadvantage is the huge amount of bones.
I think even those who don't think cows damage the environment agree that action needs to be taken on factory life for most animals. I've heard some nasty things...combs cut off, beaks damaged...some of it may be propaganda or whatever, but still. Things were better when we had lots of cranky farmers raising the cattle. Even if we were enslaving people and kicking people out of their land at the time, they had some things right then, at least for animals. Besides the whole 'kill the buffalo, starve an Indian, throw a party' thing.
..
Um, please don't quote me on that first bit. Seriously.
On the other hand, goat meat is nasty and goat milk is hideous, managing to make even sugary cereal taste foul.
Huh? I LOVE me some curried goat! And goat milk cheese is awesome.
On the other hand, goat meat is nasty and goat milk is hideous, managing to make even sugary cereal taste foul.Huh? I LOVE me some curried goat! And goat milk cheese is awesome.
I have to agree about the goat milk cheese. My son is lactose intolerant so that's the only kind of cheese he can have and he loves it. I have to put it on the high shelf so he doesn't eat all of it in one sitting. :)
And my sis (also lactose intolerant) doesn't really mind goat's milk on cereal at all. I can't stand it, but I did find that powdered goat's milk can be used to make a delicious hot cocoa mix. :)Sometimes it's really just a matter of acclimating your taste buds to something new.
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Huh? I LOVE me some curried goat! And goat milk cheese is awesome.
I eat Indian food at least once a week (love me some Nav Ratan Shahi Korma!), and they usually have curried goat on the buffet. I haven't tried it, just because of all the goat I had to eat as a kid, but I'll give it a shot.
But goat milk cheese, no thanks. Been there, done that.
I missed rabbit, roasted in red wine and stuffed with mushrooms. Mmm. Cute little Mr Floppy-Ears bunnies are delish.
I had no idea that goat milk was do-able for lactose intolerant folk. Learn something new every day.
...we -need- meat if on the mere grounds that proteins of vegetable origin are comparatively poor in quality so yes, if you try to raise your children on a strictly vegetarian diet you -will- have a case of malnutrition, and criminal charges of child neglect...our organisms -need- animal protein to properly develop...
Not according to the USDA.
But I'm sure the "dietists" in your family know best. :rolleyes:
...we -need- meat if on the mere grounds that proteins of vegetable origin are comparatively poor in quality so yes, if you try to raise your children on a strictly vegetarian diet you -will- have a case of malnutrition, and criminal charges of child neglect...our organisms -need- animal protein to properly develop...Not according to the USDA.
But I'm sure the "dietists" in your family know best. :rolleyes:
Let's try to be polite here.
...we -need- meat if on the mere grounds that proteins of vegetable origin are comparatively poor in quality so yes, if you try to raise your children on a strictly vegetarian diet you -will- have a case of malnutrition, and criminal charges of child neglect...our organisms -need- animal protein to properly develop...Not according to the USDA.
But I'm sure the "dietists" in your family know best. :rolleyes:
As I said, it can work, it is just harder to keep track of, something that is a bad idea for lazy, dumb, or busy people raising children (which is something like 99.9999% of the people raising kids).
As an aside, I was told in a class I took in college (ok it was weight lifting) that beans and rice both have incomplete proteins and that you need the other to complement it to get a complete protein. That is why you see so many ethnic dishes with both beans and rice. I don't know if this is true, don't actually care enough to verify it since I get plenty of protein myself (picks bit of dead carcass from between teeth).
Let's try to be polite here.
Fine.
Would other posters please use the correct terms ("dietitian") in future fallacious appeals to authority?
Thank you.
"dietitian"
Gesundheit!
As I said, it can work, it is just harder to keep track of, something that is a bad idea for lazy, dumb, or busy people raising children (which is something like 99.9999% of the people raising kids).
As an aside, I was told in a class I took in college (ok it was weight lifting) that beans and rice both have incomplete proteins and that you need the other to complement it to get a complete protein. That is why you see so many ethnic dishes with both beans and rice. I don't know if this is true, don't actually care enough to verify it since I get plenty of protein myself (picks bit of dead carcass from between teeth).
Absolutely. I'm sure it is difficult, and not something I'd recommend trying. But that isn't the same as "that's impossible," which, at least according to the USDA, is incorrect.
Sorry, but people making false assertions on message boards irk me. Yeah, I know: WTF am I doing on the Internet? :)
Would other posters please use the correct terms ("dietitian") in future fallacious appeals to authority?
Thank you.
First, I'm not a native english speaker, so thanks for the correction.
Second, just a note that I'm laughing at your foaming vitriol as I type (hit a nerve, didn't I?). Allow me correct you though:
The article you sent includes milk, milk products, and eggs, all of which are... *drumroll* yes, -animal protein-. This diet includes animal protein, all it does is excluding meat. While soy products are high in protein, said protein is vegetable, and of low value.
Thanks for sending the article though, it actually further proves my point.
But I'm sure the "dietists" in your family know best. :rolleyes:
They know better than you, that's for sure. Both have over 25 years of experience (and keeping up to date) in the field, and you have... not even the knowledge to tell between animal and vegetable proteins.
Have a nice day.
P.D: Cooking... cooking... SERVED!
Heh. Chimps are mean. Those Wikipedia links seem to back up what I heard somewhere: their preferred source of meat is from lower primates.
Somehow that's just wrong.
Did a lot of coursework in primatology. If you are interested you should check out Jane Goodall's writing about the Gombe chimps. Because of lack of evidence, scientists studying chimps in the 60s believed that they had discovered a sort of Garden of Eden, perhaps a model for what humans had been like before the rise of civilizations and their attendant ills. In retrospect, it is fair to say that they were willing to draw a conclusion that was consonant with the 60s zeitgeist-good example of science reflecting prevailing cultural ideas. Later it was discovered that common chimps can really be quite violent. Warfare has been observed, and there are some 'psycho' chimps as well. Among Goodall's chimps there was a mother-daughter team, Pom and Passion, who committed infanticide and ate their victims.
Later it was discovered that common chimps can really be quite violent. Warfare has been observed, and there are some 'psycho' chimps as well. Among Goodall's chimps there was a mother-daughter team, Pom and Passion, who committed infanticide and ate their victims.
Is this a bad time to realise there's an evil monkey in my closet? o_o;
...we -need- meat if on the mere grounds that proteins of vegetable origin are comparatively poor in quality so yes, if you try to raise your children on a strictly vegetarian diet you -will- have a case of malnutrition, and criminal charges of child neglect...our organisms -need- animal protein to properly develop...Not according to the USDA.
But I'm sure the "dietists" in your family know best. :rolleyes:
As I said, it can work, it is just harder to keep track of, something that is a bad idea for lazy, dumb, or busy people raising children (which is something like 99.9999% of the people raising kids).
As an aside, I was told in a class I took in college (ok it was weight lifting) that beans and rice both have incomplete proteins and that you need the other to complement it to get a complete protein. That is why you see so many ethnic dishes with both beans and rice. I don't know if this is true, don't actually care enough to verify it since I get plenty of protein myself (picks bit of dead carcass from between teeth).
The protein is really not a big deal. I've never bothered to do the research, since I'm never having kids, but the biggest challenges for a complete vegan diet are the B vitamins, I think B12 particularly, and omega 3 fatty acids. I would research the omega 3s very carefully if I were going to have kids because they are vital to nervous system health and development. I wouldn't put my kids on a vegan diet unless I were confident of being able to meet those needs.
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omega 3 fatty acids.
Pretty much only available from tuna, salmon, herring, anchovies, etc. in a form useful for humans. (Flaxseed oil or algae is practically worthless, for this purpose.)
When I was diabetic, salmon was the most highly recommended meat, but I violently loathe the taste, so I just ate tuna every day (which is only like a third as good, omega 3 wise, IIRC). I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy, and since I wasn't eating bread, I would slice a green pepper in half and scoop the tuna in, and take it to work as a 'sandwich.' Super-low carb, fairly yummy and full of various stuff I needed.
Pretty much only available from tuna, salmon, herring, anchovies, etc. in a form useful for humans. (Flaxseed oil or algae is practically worthless, for this purpose.)
When I was diabetic, salmon was the most highly recommended meat, but I violently loathe the taste, so I just ate tuna every day (which is only like a third as good, omega 3 wise, IIRC). I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy, and since I wasn't eating bread, I would slice a green pepper in half and scoop the tuna in, and take it to work as a 'sandwich.' Super-low carb, fairly yummy and full of various stuff I needed.
Check out the Super Green List for the best sources of omega-3 as well as sustainable/environmentally friendly seafood to eat.
Later it was discovered that common chimps can really be quite violent. Warfare has been observed, and there are some 'psycho' chimps as well. Among Goodall's chimps there was a mother-daughter team, Pom and Passion, who committed infanticide and ate their victims.Is this a bad time to realise there's an evil monkey in my closet? o_o;
Jumps out and points finger at Dogbert
Would other posters please use the correct terms ("dietitian") in future fallacious appeals to authority?
Thank you.
First, I'm not a native english speaker, so thanks for the correction.
Second, just a note that I'm laughing at your foaming vitriol as I type (hit a nerve, didn't I?). Allow me correct you though:
The article you sent includes milk, milk products, and eggs, all of which are... *drumroll* yes, -animal protein-. This diet includes animal protein, all it does is excluding meat. While soy products are high in protein, said protein is vegetable, and of low value.
Thanks for sending the article though, it actually further proves my point.
But I'm sure the "dietists" in your family know best. :rolleyes:They know better than you, that's for sure. Both have over 25 years of experience (and keeping up to date) in the field, and you have... not even the knowledge to tell between animal and vegetable proteins.
Have a nice day.
P.D: Cooking... cooking... SERVED!
Dogbert, you seem to be taking this as seriously as bugley. Otherwise you wouldn't be gloating like this. So, PLEASE try to remain polite, both of you. We haven't had a flame war in ages, and I'd rather not be a witness to one.
Dogbert, you seem to be taking this as seriously as bugley. Otherwise you wouldn't be gloating like this. So, PLEASE try to remain polite, both of you. We haven't had a flame war in ages, and I'd rather not be a witness to one.
You're right, and I apologize, even if those who live in houses of glass shouldn't throw stones. It was hard not not to take it personal, though, as one of those two dietists (or dietitians, both terms seem to be right according to english dictionaries) I was talking about is my mother. In Mexico we have a saying: "A groseria, groseria y media" (something like "An insult received is paid back with interest"). Next time Bugley chooses to stab civility in the face he'd do well to save himself unnecessary embarassment and at least get properly documented on the topic at hand.
Same thing I thought when I read that. LOL!I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy,Did you suffer an injury to your taste buds?
Hey, no making fun of Set, he might just be pregnant! =D
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I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy,Did you suffer an injury to your taste buds?
No, my mom is French, so my taste buds came pre-damaged. :)
I love horseradish. I worked at a bar when I was 14 and drank virgin bloody maries at work, just because of how awesome the horseradish was (and when it was my turn to make the mix, I put in extra)! I'm also a fan of sauerkraut, V-8 and other sour/tart flavors. The only flavor I don't get is salt. I loathe salt (although even salt is good on a raw tomato or hard-boiled egg!).
self-flagellation
2/10.
I would have given you a 3, but the "hit a nerve" card is pretty over-played.
I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy,Did you suffer an injury to your taste buds?No, my mom is French, so my taste buds came pre-damaged. :)
I love horseradish. I worked at a bar when I was 14 and drank virgin bloody maries at work, just because of how awesome the horseradish was (and when it was my turn to make the mix, I put in extra)! I'm also a fan of sauerkraut, V-8 and other sour/tart flavors. The only flavor I don't get is salt. I loathe salt (although even salt is good on a raw tomato or hard-boiled egg!).
Tuna + Horseradish == win. :D
I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy,Tuna + Horseradish == win. :D
+1, although real wasabi is even better.
...The only flavor I don't get is salt. I loathe salt (although even salt is good on a raw tomato or hard-boiled egg!).
Salt is good in moderation, especially the un-iodized versions. A little pinch of sea salt flakes on a sliced vine-ripened heirloom tomato followed by a light drizzle of olive oil... that's heavenly.
I highly recommend that anyone reading this thread attempt to grow your own tomatoes, especially the heirloom varieties. A vine-ripened heirloom tomato is at least an order of magnitude better than those pitiful flavorless tomatoes sold in supermarkets. They are easy to grow, especially once you get them started. And don't be afraid to try the yellow, green, and black heirloom varieties either.
Mmmmm.... 'maters
I highly recommend that anyone reading this thread attempt to grow your own tomatoes, especially the heirloom varieties. A vine-ripened heirloom tomato is at least an order of magnitude better than those pitiful flavorless tomatoes sold in supermarkets. They are easy to grow, especially once you get them started. And don't be afraid to try the yellow, green, and black heirloom varieties either.
Mmmmm.... 'maters
I will +1 this, and also add that heirloom tomatos can be easily canned and put up to delight your palate in spaghetti sauce all season long. My wife put up about 10 jars this year, and we are expanding next year. The canning jars are wicked inexpensive. This also goes for most things you grow outside.
You haven't lived until you've tried pickled green beans (also known as 'Dilly Beans')
...heirloom tomatos can be easily canned and put up to delight your palate in spaghetti sauce all season long. My wife put up about 10 jars this year, and we are expanding next year. The canning jars are wicked inexpensive. This also goes for most things you grow outside.
Yeah, lots of home-garden produce can be canned or frozen. It will always taste better and have no preservatives vs. store bought. The canning supplies quickly pay for themselves and then home-grown & home-made becomes cheaper than store-bought too.
I've got a couple gallons of fresh home-made marinara, a 1-1/2 gallons of fresh pizza sauce, and a gallon of fresh pesto, all frozen in 8oz containers. It's super-easy to defrost and reheat and always beats store-bought in taste.
The only bad things are 1) running out and 2) spoiling your tastebuds so you really dislike store-bought.
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omega 3 fatty acids.Pretty much only available from tuna, salmon, herring, anchovies, etc. in a form useful for humans. (Flaxseed oil or algae is practically worthless, for this purpose.)
When I was diabetic, salmon was the most highly recommended meat, but I violently loathe the taste, so I just ate tuna every day (which is only like a third as good, omega 3 wise, IIRC). I'm not a huge fan of tuna, but mixed with horseradish or spicy brown mustard, it's pretty yummy, and since I wasn't eating bread, I would slice a green pepper in half and scoop the tuna in, and take it to work as a 'sandwich.' Super-low carb, fairly yummy and full of various stuff I needed.
I'm always trying to get more of the stuff myself, because I have high cholesterol, but a few years back I had a bad experience with some spoiled salmon (couldn't keep anything down for a week) and I subsequently lost my taste for the stuff :/
I need to get back into it, because I know it's not salmon in general that gave me a problem, so much as salmon that was probably spoiled or tainted, but it's hard to look at it anymore.
I'm always trying to get more of the stuff myself, because I have high cholesterol, but a few years back I had a bad experience with some spoiled salmon (couldn't keep anything down for a week) and I subsequently lost my taste for the stuff :/
I need to get back into it, because I know it's not salmon in general that gave me a problem, so much as salmon that was probably spoiled or tainted, but it's hard to look at it anymore.
I feel the same way about pimientos. Have you tried having rainbow trout or tilapia?
Edit: And pickled green beans are AWESOME. 'Specially when they're super spicy and garlicky. Of course, you could knock a horse out with your breath afterward, but they're so damn tasty!
I've got a couple gallons of fresh home-made marinara, a 1-1/2 gallons of fresh pizza sauce, and a gallon of fresh pesto, all frozen in 8oz containers. It's super-easy to defrost and reheat and always beats store-bought in taste.
*plans a raid to Ambrosia's home in the near future*
Have you tried having rainbow trout or tilapia?
Hmmm tilapia.... =9