Here's an idea: "Affected creatures have their base move speeds reduced by 30'. A creature reduced to a 0' move speed in this way can still move 5 feet as a full-round action."
Better underpowered than overpowered, methinks.
Especially for spells.
Stack enough Solid Fogs spells on top of each other under a creature and you can negate falling damage even at terminal velocity.
Hmm... this makes me think of a wizard using divinations and solid fog to capture falling meteorites in order to get more precious metals from them.
They could buff it up by requiring a strength roll. You could move your strength roll in increments of 5 feet, rounded down. Sounds more balanced to me for a 4th level spell. A bad roll of a weak char will mean he won't move, while generally everyone could at least move 5' and stronger characters generally 10' to 15'.
No fair for characters with different movements and so arbitary it hurts the cosmology (unless there is a Solid Fog god whos portfolio is solid fog and he has a mental issue with anyone moving over 5ft a round and so actively increased the density depending on the individual).Maybe it should be 10ft. max move instead of 5ft. This allows faster exits but doesn't turn it into a spell that no one will ever take anymore.
It's tricky one, it did need attention but as Jason said maybe in reflection it got a little too much.
It falls into the House-rule area for me.
Sure, I'm just trying to suggest a way the Spell can still be "usable" without having to stick with the 3.5 version.
We've gone from "broken" to "rubbish" and Jason has said that he feels Paizo may have gone a little too far, however many others have said better under-powered than over-powered.
I don't know the answer which is why I said it's a house-rule spell. Personally I've never used or seen it being used in a "broken" way, but that's just my experience.
I can see "how" it could be abused, what's everyone else's experience?
Have you, or have you seen others, abuse Solid Fog in games, and how often?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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For what it's worth you can all blame Jason Nelson for the nerf to solid fog. There was a good bit of discussion about his strategic use of it in some of the Paizo games during the early stages of the beta. Solid fog plus blade barrier was the clincher I believe.
Oh you had to go and bring THAT up!
It only got really bad when I used time stop first, with quickened solid fog and multiple intersecting blade barriers on big creatures (so even if they moved they'd still be in at least two on the second round).
But hey, Baskerville Holmes got his comeuppance in the final battle of Savage Tide when Demogorgon used Spell Stowaway to jump inside my time stop, kill me dead (although I actually lasted TWO rounds, since he rolled a 1 on one of his attacks and I had like 10 hp left), and then opened a gate and kicked my lifeless corpse into the Negative Material Plane.
If you're gonna go down, go down in a blaze of glory!
They could buff it up by requiring a strength roll. You could move your strength roll in increments of 5 feet, rounded down. Sounds more balanced to me for a 4th level spell. A bad roll of a weak char will mean he won't move, while generally everyone could at least move 5' and stronger characters generally 10' to 15'.
That sounds reasonable to me (like Wall of Thorns), although I'd go with a minimum of 5' move even on a failed check.
That sounds reasonable to me (like Wall of Thorns), although I'd go with a minimum of 5' move even on a failed check.They could buff it up by requiring a strength roll. You could move your strength roll in increments of 5 feet, rounded down. Sounds more balanced to me for a 4th level spell. A bad roll of a weak char will mean he won't move, while generally everyone could at least move 5' and stronger characters generally 10' to 15'.
Going through this thread, I was thinking along the same lines… making it a Strength Check as a full-round action to move through the solid fog. I was thinking of suggesting a DC 14 Str check to move half-speed as a full-round action , but I like the idea of modeling it after how Wall of Thorns works better.
That sounds reasonable to me (like Wall of Thorns), although I'd go with a minimum of 5' move even on a failed check.They could buff it up by requiring a strength roll. You could move your strength roll in increments of 5 feet, rounded down. Sounds more balanced to me for a 4th level spell. A bad roll of a weak char will mean he won't move, while generally everyone could at least move 5' and stronger characters generally 10' to 15'.
Agreed. 5ft minimum move, then 5ft extra if you pass the Stregth check DC 15[?] and for every 5 you exceed the DC you can move an additional 5ft.
opened a gate and kicked my lifeless corpse into the Negative Material Plane.
Did Demogorgon WANT to be haunted?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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opened a gate and kicked my lifeless corpse into the Negative Material Plane.Did Demogorgon WANT to be haunted?
Don't matter what he wanted, what he GOT was his BUTT KICKED (by the rest of the party, including my cohort). Of course, the party's druid/barbarian then became the new Prince(ss) of Demons, so I guess it was a wash in the end. And I got brought back by Gwynharwyf for a little happily ever after with Lavinia, so it's all good. :)
For what it's worth you can all blame Jason Nelson for the nerf to solid fog.Oh you had to go and bring THAT up!
It only got really bad when I used time stop first, with quickened solid fog and multiple intersecting blade barriers on big creatures (so even if they moved they'd still be in at least two on the second round).
So you're implying a 4th level spell got nerf'd on the basis that it was used in combination with several 6th level spells and topped with metamagic...level 11+? Oooooookay, that's kinda weak.
On another note: Entangle took a similar hit, no more half-speed.
*Rant* So what's still worth using at 1st level? Cure Light Wounds and Shillelagh. *two thumbs up for the game's worst spell list*
*Rant* So what's still worth using at 1st level? Cure Light Wounds and Shillelagh. *two thumbs up for the game's worst spell list*
Longstrider's nice enough, especially if you're a dwarf in a party of humans and you can't afford Boots of Striding and Springing. The hours per level duration is a big help...
So you're implying a 4th level spell got nerf'd on the basis that it was used in combination with several 6th level spells and topped with metamagic...level 11+? Oooooookay, that's kinda weak.For what it's worth you can all blame Jason Nelson for the nerf to solid fog.Oh you had to go and bring THAT up!
It only got really bad when I used time stop first, with quickened solid fog and multiple intersecting blade barriers on big creatures (so even if they moved they'd still be in at least two on the second round).
No, I was making a joke. The fact that Jason was playing with the Paizo guys at the time the beta came out and used the spell in a highly effective way may have in some small way ensured that it got nerfed but realistically it was a well known fact that the spell was broken long before that. Solid fog floated to the top of the awesome spell combination list early in the 3.5 lifecycle, long before Jason even knew the Paizo guys.
On another note: Entangle took a similar hit, no more half-speed.
*Rant* So what's still worth using at 1st level? Cure Light Wounds and Shillelagh. *two thumbs up for the game's worst spell list*
This is actually not true.
Entangle spell, PRD:
"This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts."
Difficult Terrain, PRD (Combat -> Movement, Position, and Distance -> Terrain and Obstacles):
"Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain."
So, yes, the sentence in the spell description 'creatures that make their save can move as normal' is a bit misleading - it basically says that they can move instead of gaining the entangled condition. But how far they can move, this is another matter.
And regarding the nerf to Solid Fog and the comparison to Sleet Storm:
Duration: Solid Fog 1 min/level vs. Sleet Storm 1r/level (S.F. wins)
Permanency: Solid Fog yes vs. Sleet Storm no (S.F. wins)
Visibility: Solid Fog 5 ft. vs. Sleet Storm 0 ft. (S.S. wins)
Movement: Solid Fog half movement (all types) vs. Sleet Storm half or no movement (walking only) (S.F. wins, although not by a large measure - the Acrobatics DC is not that high)
Melee Attacks: Solid Fog -2 hit and damage vs. Sleet Storm normal (S.F. wins)
Ranged Attacks: Solid Fog no vs. Sleet Storm yes (S.F. wins)
Range: Solid Fog medium vs. Sleet Storm long (S.S. wins)
Area of Effect: Solid Fog 20 ft. radius, 20 ft. high vs. Sleet Storm 40 ft. radius, 20 ft. high (S.S. wins)
They are almost comparable. Against a creature that relies on sight, Sleet Storm could be a better choice (unless such creature has the Blind Fight feat). Against a creature with other means to detect the foe, Solid Fog is a better choice (IMHO).
Of course, Solid Fog got nerfed high, but previously it was too powerful. Maybe Sleet Storm should have been reduced, too (the visibility should not be 0 - again, IMHO).
Maybe it would be more balanced to change the speed penalty of Solid Fog to 1/4th (minimum 5 foot)?
On another note: Entangle took a similar hit, no more half-speed.
*Rant* So what's still worth using at 1st level? Cure Light Wounds and Shillelagh. *two thumbs up for the game's worst spell list*
REALLY????
The entire area is difficult terrain save or no, and if you make your save but fail to escape the effect you make a save every round you are in the effect.
The area is 40 foot radius, that is huge for a battlefield control spell.
No spell resistance in case your hopes got up.
The Range is Long...just because what else would it be. Short and medium range are for wizards.
And the duration? Not 1 round/level...how about 10 times that long?
Effective battlefield control that has great duration, great range, avoids spell resistance, is huge...and it's level 1.
Wizards are jealous. Grease covers a 10' square and lasts 1 round/level.
Grease covers a 10' square and lasts 1 round/level.
Nope, Grease may have been nerfed a little, but it lasts 1 minute/level now. :-)
Grease covers a 10' square and lasts 1 round/level.Nope, Grease may have been nerfed a little, but it lasts 1 minute/level now. :-)
How did I miss that?
It wasn't nerfed too bad. It's no longer a Rogue attack platform, but it still does what it's intended to do.
Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement.
Yup, missed that, sorry. I was specifically looking for THE 'Half speed phrase' from 3.5E PHB... "A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area." Didn't realize it required a re-wording, I guess somehow 'move half speed' was just too complicated, silly me.
Grease is up to a minute/level? Wow, now I want to play a Druid/Wizard again. Yay, crowd control!
Grease is up to a minute/level? Wow, now I want to play a Druid/Wizard again. Yay, crowd control!
The optimizer in me just cried blood. :P
Sorry...I should have clarified:
The PRACTICAL optimizer in me cried tears of blood.
If there is a theoretical optimizer in me at all, I've always successfully repressed it.