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Of course you could just stab them really good and take hit points away... or use that standard action to grease them instead which causes them to be flat footed... or web them and cause them to be entangled taking a -2 to attack rolls...Good call.
A Bard needs to be able to switch between martial and spell use. If the best spell you have to be effective is going to cause a -1 to hit only, then shoot your arrows, or move in with your longspear.
Bards are pretty good martially, and there is a reason I suggest using your feats to enhance this quality. Because if you don't, using flare could actually end up being your best option - and you don't want that to happen...ever.
You could stab them. But if you're 30ft away, good luck with that stab. You could shoot them, but Flare doesn't involve having to actually hit them to be effective. If you're not good at hitting things at range (or they have cover or are in combat) this might not be a bad idea. You can web them? I wasn't aware Web was a first level Bard spell. You could Grease them...twice a day. You'd be hoping for a low Reflex save, but I won't pretend Grease isn't one of the best spells a Bard has.
You could do a lot of things, but very few of those things are at will. Very few are at range and at will. Almost none target a save other than Will (except Grease, which happens to be your only real Reflex save debuff). And none last a minute.
I'm not exactly sure what people want out of a cantrip, but a minute long debuff that stacks with a lot of other debuffs is a good deal.
Thanks,
JP
good stuffOne thing on the mounted combat, you can do full attacks if you're doing ranged attacks. You just have penalties of -4 on doublemoves or -8 on running, mounted combat/mounted archery will cut that in 2, shot on the run's not bad but it's wasted on mounted archery.
Not entirely wasted, since an archery attack while mounted is always assumed to take place 1/2 way on any movement that round, unless you use Shot on the Run.
I agree though that once Mounted - Shot on the Run is less important, and Mounted Combat/Archery are better choices...I'll make the change.
Thanks.
Armor check penalties only apply to dex/str based skills, perform is charisma based.I quoted the line of the book relating to armor check penalties. Also, Versatile Performance doesn't actually specify that you change the stat on which the skill is based, just that you replace the skill bonus you have in that skill with you skill bonus in the performance, and specifically includes the Charisma bonus.
Again, I'd expect that if that's what they meant, they would have said that. I'd also expect that if they meant it to overcome armor check penalties (seeing as this would be a rather large advantage) they would have also mentioned that it does.
Thanks,
JP
It is a very large advantage... which is partially off set in the amount of levels that go by before you get each of these abilities.
You aren't using the Dex/Str skill you are using a Cha skill... since that skill isn't a Dex/Str skill it doesn't have ACP.
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You are doubling their bonus to hit, not their chance to hit. You are increasing their chance to hit by 5%. The only time it is doubling their chance to hit is when they had a 5% chance to hit in the first place, which would require an opponent with an AC of 21 - no more, no less.
You're correct. My apologies for exaggerating it's usefulness.
Does their really need to be ZERO room between "Drooling" over an ability and believing it offers "No difference"?Forcing me into that selection doesn't move ahead our discussion at all, since my opinion of inspire courage is neither of the options you present.
+1 Damage is OK, but I use straight language here. OK doesn't mean useless, nor does it mean I'm drooling at the power.
Really? I mean, really? I'm not allowed to be funny on a gaming forum without some nitpicking? You're allowed to come back with a choice somewhere in between "Ohmygawditssoawesome" and "eh". I'll get over it.
I'm just finding it difficult to believe that you're in a position where the first round of every combat you're able to use one of your two first level spells to awesome effect. Or being able to make an attack, from a character who is not exceptionally likely to hit at early levels, is going to alter the course of a fight. On the other hand, making those in your party that are actually likely to make a difference by hitting something more likely to hit, sounds like a good idea.
It's true, the case where you have a spell to burn and you run into a bunch of mediocre reflex save enemies might be the time where you cast a spell on the first round instead of activating Inspire Courage. But if they didn't all fall down, I highly recommend activating it on your second action. You don't get all that many rounds of Inspire Courage a day, but how long do fights last in early levels? Also, unlike old bards of 3.5, you can split these rounds up between fights.
Thanks,
JP
Armor check penalties only apply to dex/str based skills, perform is charisma based.I quoted the line of the book relating to armor check penalties. Also, Versatile Performance doesn't actually specify that you change the stat on which the skill is based, just that you replace the skill bonus you have in that skill with you skill bonus in the performance, and specifically includes the Charisma bonus.
Again, I'd expect that if that's what they meant, they would have said that. I'd also expect that if they meant it to overcome armor check penalties (seeing as this would be a rather large advantage) they would have also mentioned that it does.
Thanks,
JPAlright, I've been following the arguments here. I think there are some important points:
Versatile Performance allows you, by the rules, to "use his total perform skill bonus...in place of the associated skills bonus" It then specifically includes Rank and Class Skill bonus, but does not specifically mention Stat bonus. However, a Stat bonus is still mechanically part of your Total Skill bonus.
If they didn't want your Stat bonus included, they should have said "Total skill bonus before Stat bonus", which they didn't.
As for ACP. You are using your total Performance bonus in place of the skill bonus from the other skill. By this reasoning, the Bard is not actually performing, but instead, is simply substituting the Total Skill Bonus of perform instead of actually performing.
In this case, then technically, a Bard using his Perform (Dance) bonus in place of his Tumble bonus is still performing the tumble skill, only using the perform skill bonus in its place. As such, ACP should still apply, and any applicable instrument bonuses (like masterwork instrument) would not apply, since the instrument is not being used.)
I guess basically - you are either performing or you aren't. If you are performing, you need to use an instrument, or actually dance or whatever. However, since ACP doesn't apply to perform, then it doesn't apply.
If you aren't actually using the Perform skill, then you should apply ACP if they apply to the skill you are actually performing.
It really has to be one way or the other. Doesn't it?
As for which it is, I'm of mixed opinion. In my imagination, I can't imagine any way a Bard would use Perform (dance) instead of Tumble if he's not actually dancing, or use Perform (Drums) to handle an animal, if he's not soothing the animal with his percussion sounds. So from that point of view - the actual perform skill should replace use of the other skill.
However, the way its worded is that you are only using the bonus from your perform skill. Suggesting that a Tumble check is still using the Tumble skill, except you replace the bonus for your tumble skill with your Performance (Dance) skill. So from a mechanical standpoint, I would have to go the other way, that makes less sense to me, but fits the way the rule is worded better.
If that doesn't just muddy the water more, I don't know what does... :P
So i figured I would add my two sense here. For bards I see one more focus that can work. An Enchantment focused Bard. He would take:
Spell Focus(Enchantment)
Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Threnodic Spell-lets mind affecting spells effect undead (Osirion book)
TRAIT-Eastern Mysteries-Qadira Faction (trait packet)
Also for the the controller Bard I would consider these things:
1. Scorpion Whip-Uses whip proficiency but causes lethal damage
2 Feats
A. Furys Fall & Fury's Snare (Chelaxian, Empire of Devils)
B. Serpents Lash (Osiron, Land of the Pharohs)
Oh yeah, TreantMonk you should cover the traits too... in case you don't know about it there is a free download in your downloads section that has the rules and several standard traits available for free. I suggest this since traits are officially included in the Pathfinder Society play, so feel pretty official to me.
Oh yeah, TreantMonk you should cover the traits too... in case you don't know about it there is a free download in your downloads section that has the rules and several standard traits available for free. I suggest this since traits are officially included in the Pathfinder Society play, so feel pretty official to me.
Thats pretty much the guideline I use. I play pathfinder society. So If they let it in, than its official enough for me.
You are doubling their bonus to hit, not their chance to hit. You are increasing their chance to hit by 5%.
Not true, actually. You're increasing their chance to hit by a value that is entirely dependent upon their attack bonus and their target's AC. According to the Bestiary, a CR 1 monster, such as would be a common opponent at level 1, has an AC of 12. With an attack bonus of +1, that means the player hits exactly 50% of the time. With an attack bonus of +2 (from inspire courage +1), the player hits 55% of the time. That's actually a 10% increase in chance to hit. That's more than a 10% increase in damage, assuming no DR, because they also do +1 damage per hit.
Also, it's incredibly easy to boost inspire courage bonuses even at very low levels. I know you're only talking the Core bard here, but one of the primary selling points and intents with Pathfinder was to remain backwards compatible with as close to 100% of 3.5 material as possible. They failed in parts with the bard (it's impossible to convert uses/day to rounds/day consistently and logically while remaining fair and balanced), but those parts don't have anything to do with inspire courage.
A level 3 bard can easily have their inspire courage at +4 without even touching the dubious Words of Creation feat (inspirational boost from Spell Compendium, badge of valor from Magic Item Compendium, and Song of the Heart feat from Eberron Campaign Setting). Even for a well-optimized level 3 fighter with a +9 to hit (3 BAB, +1 magic weapon, +4 strength or dex, +1 weapon focus) fighting a lowly CR3 creature (15 AC), that's still an increase from 75% chance to hit to 95% chance to hit, a 26.67% increase in chance to hit and even greater increase to damage.
Really? I mean, really? I'm not allowed to be funny on a gaming forum without some nitpicking? You're allowed to come back with a choice somewhere in between "Ohmygawditssoawesome" and "eh". I'll get over it.
Of course you are, I just didn't know it was a joke. It seemed like you were suggesting that if I thought that +1 damage made "no difference" because I wasn't recommending that it was worth a standard action to bring into effect.
Probably just bad communication. No problem.
I'm just finding it difficult to believe that you're in a position where the first round of every combat you're able to use one of your two first level spells to awesome effect.
Well, I wouldn't go that far, but if you follow my tactical advice, then you will normally have spell slots available at the beginning of combat since you aren't using spellcasting repeatedly in combat.
As for the "awesome" effect, well, obviously there are always different situations, tactical positions, opponents etc, and naturally your actions should be flexible based on the situation.
I was just pointing out that +1 bonuses to hit aren't all that stellar, even at first level. +1 to everyone for both attack and damage is a decent bonus at low levels, but only decent.
It's true, the case where you have a spell to burn and you run into a bunch of mediocre reflex save enemies might be the time where you cast a spell on the first round instead of activating Inspire Courage.
If you cast Grease on a group, whether the reflex saves are mediocre or not, likely at least one will fall, also likely they will not all fall. That's why I recommend Area of Effect spells, because then you will likely get at least one, and hopefully more than one.
But if they didn't all fall down, I highly recommend activating it on your second action. You don't get all that many rounds of Inspire Courage a day, but how long do fights last in early levels?.
The length of combats really varies. I think I would agree with your advice in certain situations - like if you were playing the Archer build but didn't have a Mighty bow or Rapid shot yet. However, once you can deliver damage reliably and effectively (which shouldn't take more than a couple levels) then you may find your attacks contribute a great deal to combat outcome as well.
Some good points though. I can see certain situations where I would agree that the standard action to activate the Inspire Courage ability could be worthwhile. Moreso than before your responses anyways.
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The Charming Trait seems like a winner. +1 to Bluff and Diplomacy checks on a character that is (or could be) sexually attracted to you and +1 to the save DC of language-dependent spells you cast on such characters or creatures.
Armor Expert and Reactionary might be handy.
Rich Parents isn't allowed in Organized Play, but would be a no-brainer in other games.
The Charming Trait seems like a winner. +1 to Bluff and Diplomacy checks on a character that is (or could be) sexually attracted to you and +1 to the save DC of language-dependent spells you cast on such characters or creatures.
Armor Expert and Reactionary might be handy.
Rich Parents isn't allowed in Organized Play, but would be a no-brainer in other games.
The metamagic trait might be nice too... depending on if you are trying to focus on your spells... (not a great choice but if you got to do it having an extra +1 heighten to a spell for no cost makes it that little bit easier).
lostpike: You will need to explain to me how an Enchantment focused Bard is comparible to an Enchantment Focused Sorcerer or Wizard who get several more castings per day then you do.
The Bard gets great Enchantment spells - but they don't get a lot of spells/day, so spending your Feats in a way that makes spellcasting your only viable option in combat could leave you without a leg to stand on once those spells run out.
Do you have a way around this?
Abraham spalding: OK - I'll cover the traits. Give me some time on that then, and I'll post when its added. I think just a note that the traits aren't in the Pathfinder Rule Book - so players should check with their GM is appropriate.
Edit: Can you provide me with the exact title of the download so I can find it?
Zurai: Maybe I worded the % to hit badly. You know what I meant though...they hit 5% of the time more often then before.
As for 3.5 material, I do cover that in the beginning of the post. If 3.5 material is allowed...my handbook here isn't really what you want to be looking at, instead, look at the 3.5 Bard handbooks.
Pathfinder Bards are better than 3.5 Core Bards, but they a Core Pathfinder Bard is nothing compared to either a 3.5 or Pathfinder Bard + crunch from 100 splatbooks.
Zurai: Maybe I worded the % to hit badly. You know what I meant though...they hit 5% of the time more often then before.
Again, not true. I think the wording you're looking for is "they have a 5 percentage point increase in their chance to hit", which is entirely different from "they hit 5% of the time more often" or "their chance to hit is increased by 5%" -- and also pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. The actual increase in chance to hit is much more relevant.
You also have to figure in how many party members are being affected and what they're doing with the bonus. A party with a TWF rogue and a TWF fighter will get a lot more benefit than a party mostly consisting of spellcasters, for example. Of course, the standard action, can't-carry-from-fight-to-fight nature of PF inspire courage at low levels does mean it's not going to be as useful as the 3.5 version (one of my main complaints about PF, in fact), although it becomes much more useful at higher levels thanks to the faster activation times and the built-in ability to cast while performing, as well as scaling higher and faster.
You are doubling their bonus to hit, not their chance to hit. You are increasing their chance to hit by 5%.Not true, actually. You're increasing their chance to hit by a value that is entirely dependent upon their attack bonus and their target's AC. According to the Bestiary, a CR 1 monster, such as would be a common opponent at level 1, has an AC of 12. With an attack bonus of +1, that means the player hits exactly 50% of the time. With an attack bonus of +2 (from inspire courage +1), the player hits 55% of the time. That's actually a 10% increase in chance to hit.
Zurai, out of every 20 attacks, they'll be hitting 11 times instead of 10 times. So you only notice a difference in one out of every twenty attacks (roughly speaking).
Zurai, out of every 20 attacks, they'll be hitting 11 times instead of 10 times. So you only notice a difference in one out of every twenty attacks (roughly speaking).
No, you'll notice a difference 11 out of 20 times (+1 damage every hit). Even if you're talking purely hit chance, it's still a 10% increase in the number of times you hit, and thus a straight-up 10% increase in average damage.
No, you'll notice a difference 11 out of 20 times (+1 damage every hit). Even if you're talking purely hit chance, it's still a 10% increase in the number of times you hit, and thus a straight-up 10% increase in average damage.
Zurai, out of every 20 attacks, they'll be hitting 11 times instead of 10 times. So you only notice a difference in one out of every twenty attacks (roughly speaking).
I get what hogarth was saying. You didn't? A +1 to hit means that when you roll the d20 to hit, there is only 1 result of 20 that was a miss before that will now be a hit. The +1 to damage is irrelevant to this point.
This means there has been an increase in chance to hit by 5 percentage points. As for the % of the increase, well, that depends on the AC of the enemy. It can be anywhere from 0% (if you are really good), or 100% (if you aren't).
That of course assumes that the character isn't relying on the 20's never miss rule. In those cases, there may not even be one didgit on the d20 that changes the result.
However, somantics aside, we all know this game, +1 to hit is a very moderate bonus. Weapon Focus grants a +1 to hit in every battle on every round with no activation at all, and I've seen all kinds of melee builds that can't be bothered to take the feat.
Considering the short duration of Inspire Courage at low levels, there is a considerable chance (certainly varied based on party makeup) that the +1 to hit will not result in a single hit that would have otherwise been missed.
So your 10% increase in average damage does not mean damage will be increased by 10% just from the increased chance to hit. It means that damage might increase 100%, but far more likely it wont increase at all.
But most importantly, again considering the short duration of inspire courage at low levels, regardless of the % of damage increase, if there is a reasonable chance that you can use Inspire Courage in a different battle that same day where you will get a chance to prepare for the battle, you can provide yourselves with the same bonus without spending the standard action during combat...isn't that a better option?
Few things to contribute here.
Words of Creation is an Exalted Feat, and there's a lot of campaigns that simply do not allow for Exalted Characters. That being said, a bard buffing his Inspire Courage up is an extremely good use of feats and items.
Second, Pathfinder Bards are made for the Lingering Melody Feat, which makes your bardic music effects last for two rounds after you stop. This effectively means you can have 3 different bardic music effects going, spending one round on each and swapping between them...it triples your rounds/day.
Third, using Epic Tales for the party to stack standard actions on the wizard won't work, because you are running into the 'same source' effect. EPic Tales is the cause of all the standard actions, so he gets just one standard action, the last one replacing those before it, not 3 or 4.
FOurth, Mithal armor is not treated as light unless you have prof. Go Paizo!
Fifth, the versatile performer is there to allow your perform ranks to subsitute their numbers for other skills, effectively magnifiying the number of skills you have without magnifying them. the ONLY thing this does is swap the end number. The skills you are subbing for remain unchanged in every other way...they are still Dex or Str based, if that is what they were originally.
Sixth, no bardic melee build should be complete without at least a mention of Snowflake Wardance!
Lastly, if you play Tome of 9 Swords, there's a White Raven feat that allows bard levels to stack with initiator class levels for access to bardic effects.
I agree that classes like the Sublime Chord, with their broken spellcasting progression, are a problem that should not be imported into 3.5.
==Aelryinth
However, somantics aside, we all know this game, +1 to hit is a very moderate bonus. Weapon Focus grants a +1 to hit in every battle on every round with no activation at all, and I've seen all kinds of melee builds that can't be bothered to take the feat.
How many melee builds do you see that don't take an item of strength +2 the first chance they get? Because that's exactly what inspire courage provides at first level. Actually, it's better, because it stacks with the +2 strength item.
So your 10% increase in average damage does not mean damage will be increased by 10% just from the increased chance to hit. It means that damage might increase 100%, but far more likely it wont increase at all.
That ... is the definition of "average damage", yes. So you agree that a +1 to hit when you hit 50% of the time is a 10% increase in average damage (putting aside the bonus to damage)?
But most importantly, again considering the short duration of inspire courage at low levels, regardless of the % of damage increase, if there is a reasonable chance that you can use Inspire Courage in a different battle that same day where you will get a chance to prepare for the battle, you can provide yourselves with the same bonus without spending the standard action during combat...isn't that a better option?
You can't really "pre-load" Pathfinder inspire courage at first level. How often do you know exactly how many rounds you have to prepare for a fight at first level? How many of your extremely limited rounds of inspire courage are you willing to completely waste? Later on, when you can scry and teleport and thus know exactly when you'll be fighting, it's viable, but by then you have a quicker activation time anyway. At first level, you have 9 rounds at an absolute maximum, and you'll typically only have 6 or 7. If you waste 4 of those preparing for a fight, you've really not done anyone a favor.
Fifth, the versatile performer is there to allow your perform ranks to subsitute their numbers for other skills, effectively magnifiying the number of skills you have without magnifying them. the ONLY thing this does is swap the end number. The skills you are subbing for remain unchanged in every other way...they are still Dex or Str based, if that is what they were originally.
False. Versatile Performer allows you to use your Performance bonus in place of the other skills' bonuses. Bonus != ranks. Bonus == SUM(ranks + class skill bonus + stat bonus + any other applicable bonuses or penalties).
How many melee builds do you see that don't take an item of strength +2 the first chance they get? Because that's exactly what inspire courage provides at first level. Actually, it's better, because it stacks with the +2 strength item.
The +1 to hit and damage that inspire courage provides temporarily after using a standard action to activate it to the melee character is better than a +2 permanent strength increase?
Yeah...I disagree.
As for your question, yeah, of course, almost all melee builds want a +2 applicable stat item. Why wouldn't you? I think its important to note however, if you had to use the first standard action of any combat to activate that item...they wouldn't be very popular...I guarantee it.
That ... is the definition of "average damage", yes. So you agree that a +1 to hit when you hit 50% of the time is a 10% increase in average damage (putting aside the bonus to damage)?
an increase in average damage by 10% could mean that you may get 9% or you may get 11%. Getting all or nothing is significant information tactically - because it isn't reliable - even if the "average" remains unchanged.
As for your question, yes, I agree.
You can't really "pre-load" Pathfinder inspire courage at first level. How often do you know exactly how many rounds you have to prepare for a fight at first level? How many of your extremely limited rounds of inspire courage are you willing to completely waste?
When you initiate the attack, you can often know to the round when the battle will begin, so ideally, you activate inspire courage the round before combat begins.
Of course, you don't always initiate the attack, I'm just pointing out that Inspire Courage is more efficient when you do when it takes a standard action to activate.
After it becomes a move action, then that changes.
I don't see why scry and teleport are necessary to have a chance to prepare for combat. Bards are sneaky - do some scouting.
Fifth,...
I agree with you here, the "Total" bonus for perform includes Class bonus, Ranks, Attribute bonus, Skill focus, and any other modifiers to the perform skill.
If Versatile Performace did not carry over the bonus for attributes, then they shouldn't have used the phrase "total bonus", instead they should have said "Ranks and Class skill bonus".
The +1 to hit and damage that inspire courage provides temporarily after using a standard action to activate it to the melee character is better than a +2 permanent strength increase?
Yeah...I disagree.
As for your question, yeah, of course, almost all melee builds want a +2 applicable stat item. Why wouldn't you? I think its important to note however, if you had to use the first standard action of any combat to activate that item...they wouldn't be very popular...I guarantee it.
Not a valid comparison. Let's use a pretty standard example 4 person party: fighter, rogue, cleric, non-caster bard. All four characters benefit from the inspire courage. The bard takes his first action in combat to inspire courage, giving every party member effectively +2 strength. That's 4 instances of +2 strength for 1 standard action, not 4 standard actions (one for each party member) as it would be the way you describe it. And it's not like the bard is giving up a huge resource, either; if he's a melee bard, it's quite possible he wouldn't be able to attack in the first round anyway (especially if the first round is a surprise round), and if he's an archer bard he's not going to average a whole lot of damage.
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Matter of fact, let's take that second scenario and expand on it. We'll assume a decent level of optimization to our other party members and use the archer bard you have listed in your first post. Fighter and Rogue (strength/thug rogue for these purposes) have a 17 primary combat stat just like Bard does, and Cleric has a 15 primary combat stat. Fighter hits at +5 (1 BAB, +3 stat, +1 weapon focus) for 2d6+4 damage (greatsword), Rogue at +3 for 1d6+3 damage, Cleric at +2 for 1d6+2 damage, and Bard at +3 for 1d8 damage. We're ignoring crits for this scenario because they're a pain and don't really alter the numbers much at 1st level. We're ignoring flanking and sneak attack because they don't generally happen on the first round. We're ignoring Point Blank Shot because we're also ignoring lack of Precise Shot in your build. We'll assume that Bard wins initiative or that the rest of the party delays their turns until after his for the inspire example. Their opponent is an average CR 3 creature, defined in the Bestiary to have an AC of 15.
These are the base damage numbers:
Fighter hits 55% of the time for 11 average damage = 6.05 expected damage
Rogue hits 45% of the time for 6.5 average damage = 2.925 expected damage
Cleric hits 40% of the time for 5.5 average damage = 2.2 expected damage
Bard hits 45% of the time for 4.5 average damage = 2.025 expected damage
Total expected damage in round one: 13.2
These are the inspire courage damage numbers:
Fighter hits 60% of the time for 12 average damage = 7.2 expected damage
Rogue hits 50% of the time for 7.5 average damage = 3.75 expected damage
Cleric hits 45% of the time for 6.5 average damage = 2.925 expected damage
Bard hits 0% of the time for 0 average damage = 0 expected damage
Total expected damage in round one: 13.875
So, it's not like losing that standard action seriously hurt the party. Actually, they do slightly more damage, on average, than they would with him plinking away. And, on the later rounds, it's a clear advantage (expected damage is 16.625, an increase of almost 26%).
Whilst a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid has the opportunity to get more out of the Spell Focus & Augment feats than a bard, you yourself have said that there is likely no primary caster in a party with a controller bard:
Yes, but the replace the primary caster's role, that doesn't necessarily mean they will be doing that by casting all the time.
A Controller bard who uses Dazzling Display or Trip for example, are using non-casting options that provide contribution to the combat in a way similar to casting a spell. Of course, you need feats to do these things, and Spell Focus isn't going to help you.
As far as I understand you are recommending Dazzling Display and whip use for the controller bard to increase their general versatility...
I'm not sure I understand. Your skill with the weapon is immaterial when using Dazzling display - all that matters is your intimidate skill, your charisma bonus, and if you have intimidating prowess, your strength bonus.
Surely the Bard is going to be as good as anyone at this, and better than most. Really, the mechanics are great for Bards.
As for the "Conjuration specialist" Bard, I would be a bit concerned regarding not only the less castings that Bards have, but also the weight towards enchantment - not conjuration, on their spell lists.
An enchantment specialist Bard - although something I wouldn't recommend, at least has their spell selections on their side. Irresistable Dance is at least an 8th level spell for Wizards and Sorcerers. Do Bards even get any early entry Conjurations?
Don't get me wrong...I am a HUGE fan of summoning, but if you want to make a dedicated summoning build - I think you will be much better served by ANY of the full casters. Druids, Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers can all make pretty good dedicated summoners with the right spell selection, Augment Summoning, and some good tactics.
However, the poor Bard will be casting significantly weaker summons, less often, and later in progression, capping at SM VI at level 16. As a handicap for a summoner this isn't just bad, its a deal breaker.
Sure, if you have an unending supply of Staves you could work it, but who has that?
Basically, if you want special attention to this build in the Guide, I really need some more convincing how this option is workable over a campaign...even anywhere close to where a dedicated caster would bring it.
stuff
The problem is that you are comparing damage at first level between using Inspire Courage and using a regular bow.
So instead of comparing Inspire Courage with my suggestion regarding the first round of combat, you are comparing it with another action in the first round of combat that I ALSO don't recommend.
Determining which is less terrible becomes kind of...irrelevant.
Instead, lets compare using that Standard Action for Inspire Courage or that Standard Action for casting Grease:
These are the Grease average damage numbers
Fighter hits 75% of the time for 11 average damage = 8.25 expected damage
Rogue hits 65% of the time (and gets sneak attack because the opponent is now flat footed for 10 average damage = 6.5 expected damage
Cleric hits 60% of the time for 5.5 average damage = 3.3 expected damage
Bard hits 0% of the time for 0 average damage = 0 expected damage
Total expected damage in round one: 18.05
If the opponent tries to get up everyone attacks again for free, so double the expected damage...36.10
So, it's not like losing that standard action seriously hurt the party.
Unless you cast on round 1, which is what I recommend, which I believe has been my suggestion all along. Check out the end of the Guide for tactical advice.
Umm, grease is conjuration these days, though I'm not sure if this is changed from earlier editions...
Edit:
I'm not sure if this is what you mean by 'early entry'; I suspect I am misunderstanding you.
At an earlier level than a full caster. (For example, Bards get Hideous Laughter at First level, Wizards get it at second, etc.)
Umm, grease is conjuration these days, though I'm not sure if this is changed from earlier editions...
Edit:
I'm not sure if this is what you mean by 'early entry'; I suspect I am misunderstanding you.
Ah...good question.
Early entry means getting the spell at a lower level than other casters. For example, irresistable dance is a 6th level spell for Bards, 8th level for Wizards and Sorcerers - so it is "early entry" for Bards...
Grease is still conjuration, so is Glitterdust, and I think those are the ONLY 2 spells that a Bard can get that would benifit from Spell Focus (Conjuration). Not good.
Bards have LOTS of enchantment spells that benifit from Spell Focus (Enchantment), so there is a reasonable argument to take that feat, again, I wouldn't recommend it myself, because Bards just aren't casting enough to take feats dedicated only to spellcasting...in my opinion.
stuffThe problem is that you are comparing damage at first level between using Inspire Courage and using a regular bow.
So instead of comparing Inspire Courage with my suggestion regarding the first round of combat, you are comparing it with another action in the first round of combat that I ALSO don't recommend.
Your example Bard has precisely two castings of grease at first level. Considering the assumption is still 4 combats a day, I fail to see how a first level Bard is expected to open each of them by casting grease. Also note that grease is significantly worse than it was in 3.5; in 3.5, creatures were flat-footed within the 10' square regardless of whether they moved or not and had to make a save every round or risk falling. In Pathfinder, as long as they don't move, they aren't flat-footed (even if they fail the save and fall prone) and they only ever have to make one save.
Against that same CR 3 creature from my example, the grease has at best a 50% chance (+2 poor save vs DC 13) to do anything whatsoever. Against any of the wide variety of creatures with a good Reflex save, that's only a 30% chance. So, let's run both of those numbers, using the same party as above and again assuming that the Bard acts before the other party members:
Good save expected damage:
Fighter deals 6.05 expected damage 70% of the time and 8.25 expected damage 30% of the time, for a total expected damage of 6.71.
Rogue deals 2.925 expected damage 70% of the time and 4.225 expected damage 30% of the time (remember, even if prone the creature is not flat-footed, so no sneak attack), for a total expected damage of 3.315.
Cleric deals 2.2 expected damage 70% of the time and 3.3 expected damage 30% of the time, for a total expected damage of 2.53.
Bard deals 0 damage.
Total expected damage: 12.555
Poor save expected damage:
Fighter deals 6.05 expected damage 50% of the time and 8.25 expected damage 50% of the time, for a total expected damage of 7.15.
Rogue deals 2.925 expected damage 50% of the time and 4.225 expected damage 50% of the time, for a total expected damage of 3.575.
Cleric deals 2.2 expected damage 50% of the time and 3.3 expected damage 50% of the time, for a total expected damage of 2.75.
Bard deals 0 damage.
Total expected damage: 13.475
Note how in both cases the damage is actually less than using inspire courage? Heck, in the first case (against a good save), the damage is less than just attacking.
Well, first off - I'm going to make a concession:
IF:
1) You are 1st or 2nd level
2) You are a Bard Archer or non-human Controller build
3) You don't have a strength bow (for the archer build)
4) You are out of 1st level spells, or need to save them
5) You do not have the Daze spell
6) You see no likelyhood of activating inspire courage in preparation for a battle
If all 6 of those criteria are met, I concede that Inspire Courage is a good tactical option.
As for your scenario with the Grease spell:
1) Your example where the monster fails his save I assume you meant to double the damage? Or is the monster going to stay prone? If the monster stays prone you know he's basically giving up right? (-4 to hit, +4 to be hit, can't move)
2) In your example where the monster makes his save, are we assuming that the monster doesn't want to move? If he wants to move he IS flat footed, he has to make an acrobatics check or he has to make a second save in a row. If he doesn't move, surely you can see a potential tactical advantage in that beyond damage occurring in round 1 right?
I notice in your example the creature decides to remain prone. OK - so what happens to its expected damage if it remains prone (-4 to hit)?
Depends who it attacks and what attacks it has. Against an AC of 16, which is relatively average for the party, its expected damage falls from 6.5 to 3.9 on its primary attack.
Also note if it remains prone, all those characters get the same bonuses on the following round as well.
Not an archer bard; he actually has a harder time hitting the guy. In fact, since you say not to pick up Precise Shot until your third feat, he'd have a maximum of a -4 total relative attack bonus (+3 dex, +1 PBS, -4 shooting into melee, enemy has +4 AC vs ranged attacks).
And it's not like the bonuses from inspire courage just vanish into thin air, either.
As for your second point: OK - I'll concede.
1) If you are first or second level
Why only then? What magically happens at 3rd level that prevents inspire courage from ever being viable?
2) If you are a Bard Archer build
The example actually holds true for all three of your builds.
3) If you do not have a Strength bow and are not in point blank range, or you lose initiative and the target is in melee on your turn.
Holds true regardless of PBS, as well. I just discluded it so I could justify discluding Precise Shot as well.
Unless of course you think the creature has 4HD or less - then you are probably better off with Daze (if you have it). (At least in your single - target scenario. Daze will be better right?)
Errr... no, not offensively. Daze doesn't change the party's expected damage output in the slightest. All the dazed condition does is prevent the creature from taking any actions; it doesn't give any defensive penalties whatsoever.
By the way, I'm not trying to trash your guide or anything. I just find your stance on the Bard's single best ability very puzzling. From where I sit, inspire courage is basically the whole reason to play a Bard, from a mechanical standpoint.
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Also note if it remains prone, all those characters get the same bonuses on the following round as well.Not an archer bard; he actually has a harder time hitting the guy. In fact, since you say not to pick up Precise Shot until your third feat, he'd have a maximum of a -4 total relative attack bonus (+3 dex, +1 PBS, -4 shooting into melee, enemy has +4 AC vs ranged attacks).
And it's not like the bonuses from inspire courage just vanish into thin air, either.
The Archer Bard has it harder yes, but he wasn't one of the ones attacking last turn.
Errr... no, not offensively. Daze doesn't change the party's expected damage output in the slightest. All the dazed condition does is prevent the creature from taking any actions; it doesn't give any defensive penalties whatsoever.Unless of course you think the creature has 4HD or less - then you are probably better off with Daze (if you have it). (At least in your single - target scenario. Daze will be better right?)
Except that the opponent doesn't act that turn, which means that the party gets another round's worth of attacks on it without a response.
Depends who it attacks and what attacks it has. Against an AC of 16, which is relatively average for the party, its expected damage falls from 6.5 to 3.9 on its primary attack.
So what's that, about 40% damage reduction? Sounds pretty good to me, especially since it presumably lasts the entire battle (since your monster doesn't want to get up)
Not an archer bard; he actually has a harder time hitting the guy.
If the monster isnt going to stand up - not sure why that's a big deal. Just let the meleers finish him off at that point. Though by all means, use Inspire Courage at this point...though it's very likely unecessary.
Why only then? What magically happens at 3rd level that prevents inspire courage from ever being viable?
Nothing ever prevents inspire courage from "ever being viable", nor would I ever attempt to argue that. At 3rd level, the archer Bard can cast often enough to start every battle with a spell under normal circumstances, and when not casting, can use rapid shot and, very likely, masterwork strength bows to deliver the arrows.
The example actually holds true for all three of your builds.
Really - how much is the expected damage/round of the melee Bard build at level 1? Certainly more than the archer build by quite a bit.
Daze doesn't change the party's expected damage output in the slightest..
Doesn't Daze make it easier to flank?
All the dazed condition does is prevent the creature from taking any actions; it doesn't give any defensive penalties whatsoever.
You mean AC penalties. Losing your entire round, including the ability to move or react to your opponents surrounding you is a massive defensive penalty, one that will be very hard to come back from - even if the party does ZERO damage on round 1 (which is what you did)
So what's that, about 40% damage reduction? Sounds pretty good to me, especially since it presumably lasts the entire battle (since your monster doesn't want to get up)
...
If the monster isnt going to stand up - not sure why that's a big deal. Just let the meleers finish him off at that point. Though by all means, use Inspire Courage at this point...though it's very likely unecessary.
That's 12% damage reduction (30% chance of 40% damage reduction). Not insignificant, for sure, but since using grease instead of [/i]inspire courage[/i] prolongs the fight, I'm not sure that it entirely balances out. You keep assuming that grease is an auto-succeed, when in truth that's far from the truth. Grease pretty well sucks except in very specific situations in Pathfinder (as a 1st level spell should, frankly).
Doesn't Daze make it easier to flank?
Not in the first round. And it can't be repeated against the same target.
You mean AC penalties. Losing your entire round, including the ability to move or react to your opponents surrounding you is a massive defensive penalty, one that will be very hard to come back from
Err... no, it really isn't that severe. Also note that daze only works against Humanoid targets, which excludes the vast majority of CR3 creatures even without looking at HD.
even if the party does ZERO damage on round 1 (which is what you did)
Huh? Since when does 13.8 damage equal zero damage?
The paladin with Dazzling Display and Intimidating Prowess puts the bard's efforts in the shade.
How so? I would expect the Bard's Dazzling display to be just as good if not better...
Fighters will be better trippers (and attackers) with a whip if that is their entire focus no question.
The arcane bloodline sorcerer who specialises as a controller makes the bard look a clown.
If we are talking about spellcasting staying power, I agree....
The 'generalist controller' bard does not try to max out in one of these fields of control however, but dips into all of them, having as many options open as possible, and more than the fighter/paladin/sorcerer individually.
The controller bard is no better or worse at spellcasting as any other Bard build.
His Dazzling Display ability is basically going to be as good as possible for a PC
Tripping won't be quite as good (certainly not as good as a fighter), but that is a tertiary option at best.
The purpose is to be flexible, but be good enough at all these things to succeed at them, and then interchange as is tactically appropriate.
I would suppose that the conjuration specialised bard, by comparison, is competing on the turf of the arcane bloodline controller sorcerer. Whilst the bard cannot match the DC's the sorcerer can force opponents to have to save against, the bard (at higher levels) can combine a spell that penalises enemies or creates obstacles for them with bardic music intended to either further debilitate them or to boost allies.
The conjuration specialised bard takes at least Spell Focus (conjuration), maybe Augment Summoning, probably Greater Spell Focus (conjuration) and possibly Heighten Spell (6th level, Greater Spell Focused grease is more difficult to save against than 1st level grease, and frankly the bard list offers so few 6th level 'controller' area effects that you may as well (in my opinion) Heighten lower level spells).
Granted the conjuration specialised controller bard is going to burn through their fewer options much faster than the generalist controller bard (who still has the whip and Dazzling Display after running through spells and bardic music), and probably would better suit a style...
My main concern is, as I was pointing out above, the Controller Bard is flexible. Your Bard is not. He's good at one thing...spellcasting. Not as good as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but still passable.
At least for the first battle or two. The Bard also lacks the staying power when it comes to spellcsting. A Bard who concentrates on spellcasting WILL run out of spells, and once those spells run out - what then?
You've got nothing left, you're spent, and everything you built your character around requires spellcasting.
If you want to lean your tactics more strongly towards spellcasting, then sure, take a feat that supports it, but dedicating your feats towards it makes you a one trick pony...which would be fine, if it was a good trick.
You keep assuming that grease is an auto-succeed, when in truth that's far from the truth. Grease pretty well sucks except in very specific situations in Pathfinder (as a 1st level spell should, frankly).
Grease is a very good spell, partially becuase used tactically, it can in fact be auto-succeed (since falling down is only one of the tactical advantages grease can provide).
Its good enough that I recommend it as a top priority spell for Wizards as well, and I'm constantly recieving feedback on success stories with spells like Grease.
Battlefield Control is a great way to spellcast, its tried and proven.
Doesn't Daze make it easier to flank?
Not in the first round. And it can't be repeated against the same target.
How do you get that? Use your actions on the first round to move into flanking positions, while the enemy does nothing to stop you.
How does it being the first round prevent that?
Once you use the Dazed round to surround...you don't need it again, you've secured tactical advantage.
You mean AC penalties. Losing your entire round, including the ability to move or react to your opponents surrounding you is a massive defensive penalty, one that will be very hard to come back from
Err... no, it really isn't that severe.
LOL...really? Combat is not just adding up damage on each side until someone falls down. Combat is tactical, and spending an entire round doing nothing while the opponent positions themselves advantageously, and gets a free round of attack is severe, and unless you severly outpower your opponent, you're in big trouble.
even if the party does ZERO damage on round 1 (which is what you did)
Huh? Since when does 13.8 damage equal zero damage?
By "you" it was the CR3 monster I meant. If the CR 3 monster does nothing, it does Zero damage. If the ONLY thing a party does is use the round to get tactically superior positions, then they win the round, even if they don't do any damage either.
Of course they will do damage, since 1st level characters are only making single attacks anyways, Move+Standard action attack is no problem.
Of course, the rogue will delay his action until after the fighter moves to ensure he gets a flank attack on round 1.
The Cleric won't be flanking, though the Bard can use his move action to move into flanking position, and then draw some kind of melee weapon.
Then starting round 2, after being attacked by the fighter, rogue and Cleric (the rogue from flank), we then begin round 2, with the monster, as of yet having done nothing, damaged and surrounded on all sides.
Which...in your own words...isn't severe. Wow.
As for the Humanoid restriction - yes, Daze has restricted use. Another thing you didn't mention is it might not work at all. However, when it is an option, its a pretty good one on round 1.
stuff
yes
You mean like I said? Cause you know, total bonus in performance skill includes the Cha bonus...
I wasn't talking about the charisma. I was talkig about a skill check. It's still not a perform check. Please read what I wrote. You just add the bonus, you don't make a perform check. You make the normal check associated to that skill but add the bonus in the perform skill in place of his bonus in associated skills.
This thread is looking more & more pathetic.
@Zurai: Treant apparently AGREES that Inspire is already decent at low levels, he just doesn't see activating it on the 1st round of actual combat (i.e. not prepared the round before combat or on surprise round) except in certain circumstances. It seems obvious that you are not going to change his mind on this any further, so if this is really the most important thing to you, why don't you write your own guide instead of insisting he changes his guide to exactly match your own opinion on this. Really...
Not that there is anything wrong with discussing dissenting views. Friendly debate is fun! If it becomes unfriendly, I stop responding.
However, you are right, I'm likely not changing my mind on the matter unless some new evidence I hadn't considered is presented.
why don't you write your own guide instead of insisting he changes his guide to exactly match your own opinion on this.
1. Please cite such an insistence or stop putting words into my mouth. I've never said or implied any such thing, and frankly your attitude is insulting. I'm trying to point out something that, in my opinion and experience, is misleading in his guide. I'm not trying to strongarm him or bully him, as you imply.
2. "Put up or shut up" is about the least mature response possible. About the only possible less mature response would be a variation on a "Yo mama" joke or straight-up namecalling.
Treant apparently AGREES that Inspire is already decent at low levels, he just doesn't see activating it on the 1st round of actual combat (i.e. not prepared the round before combat or on surprise round) except in certain circumstances.
I'm not seeing such an agreement. In fact, he all but says it's useless before level 7 ("it could be OK if you have a chance to prepare before combat" is pretty much a textbook definition of damning with faint praise). Even after I pointed out that it's actually strictly better, from a damage standpoint, than anything else the bard might do, even while using an actual combat action to do it rather than wasting several rounds of pre-fight usage.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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JoelF847: A mithril breastplate has an Arcane spell failure of 15%. You would need Med armor prof, Arcane Armor Training, and Arcane Armor Mastery to eliminate the Arcane spellcasting penalty.
In addition, you would lose your swift action every round in order to activate it.
This is a really, really, really bad deal for 2 AC. Honest.
I mentioned taking the Med Armor proficiency, but that's all you'd need, since mithral breastplate counts as light armor, and bards can cast in light armor at no arcane failure change. This leaves your free action available for quickened spells, the dodge feat, or arcane strike.
On this one I'm correct. Reread the first sentence of the Bardic Perform ability, "...including himself if desired." It's quite clear.
No you are wrong. Please read the rules. If you won't I can't help you
Page 37 PFInspire Competence (Su): A bard of 3rd level or higher
can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task.
That ally must be within 30 feet and be able to hear the
bard. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks
with a particular skill as long as she continues to hear
the bard’s performance. This bonus increases by +1 for
every four levels the bard has attained beyond 3rd (+3 at
7th, +4 at 11th, +5 at 15th, and +6 at 19th). Certain uses of
this ability are infeasible, such as Stealth, and may be
disallowed at the GM’s discretion. A bard can’t inspire
competence in himself.
My bold
However, the difference between saving vs. your Glitterdust with or without Dirge of Doom is 10%. That means, although Glitterdust makes failing the save more likely, 90% of the time, the result is exactly what it would have been anyways.
10%? You can't talk about %. Get your math right.
It all a matter of the save bonus. If the save bonus is +20 the drop is 10 %. If your save bonus is +5. The drop is 40 % If your bonus is +10 the drop is 20 %I say 40% or 20n% is a significant penalty.
Also I was talking DoD vs. DD.
DoD no save and no DC to beat and DOD can be activated as a move action (or a swift action or a standard action)
QUOTE="Treantmonk"]
You can take a move action in place of a standard action (it says so specifically under "move action" and "standard action" in the rules) Does it say anywhere you can take a swift action in place of a move action? I didn't think that was legal.
In one round you can perform:
- a move or a move action and..- a standard action and ..
- a swift action or an Immediate Action and..
- a one or more free actions.
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PF page 181
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform one swift action and one or more
free actions.
If you are going to post a Guide to Bards check out the rules first.
More importantly, the Bard can only have one performance type active on any round. See pg 35 under Bardic Performance, "Each round, the Bard can produce any one of the type of Bardic Performances that he has mastered..." (emphasis mine)
Please read the rules. It says any one. It doesn't say only one.
stuff
Zurai I totaly agree with you.
This thread is looking more & more pathetic.
yes.
Charles Evans: First, I do see where you are coming from, I really do.
Also, I agree with you that a Dirge of Doom and a Glitterdust can be every bit as efective as a Black Tentacles spell. (And, potentially more powerful - I guess that depends on circumstance)
I was more referring to when the Bard doesn't have any Glitterdusts, or Grease spells, or any other control spells left, but the Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric and Druid still have 1/2 their spells left.
That's when it will really suck not having any backups.
I'm just wondering what your Bard does when the spells are gone? My builds all have non-casting backups for when the spells run out.
Give me a good option there, and I'll post your build in the guide.
Zark: Obviously you've been personally offended by something I've posted. That was not my intention. I have no desire for a flamewar. Whatever it was that you took personally, my apologies, I assure you I have no intention of making personal insults towards anyone.
When I make errors, by all means point them out, but you posted a bunch of posts in the past short while that I'm beginning to find personally offensive, please keep the posts civil. I like civil debate only.
No you are wrong. Please read the rules. If you won't I can't help you
My mistake, I was unaware of the specific exception for inspire competence, I'll make the change.
10%? You can't talk about %. Get your math right.
It all a matter of the save bonus. If the save bonus is +20 the drop is 10 %. If your save bonus is +5. The drop is 40 % If your bonus is +10 the drop is 20 %
If a roll of 11 saves, you have a 50% chance to save. If a roll of 13 saves, you have a 40% chance to save. The difference between 40 and 50 is 10.
That 10% is a 20% reduction in chance to save, but it is a difference of 10 in the % chance to save. That is what I meant.
In one round you can perform:
- a move or a move action and..
- a standard action and ..
- a swift action or an Immediate Action and..
- a one or more free actions.
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PF page 181
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform one swift action and one or more
free actions.If you are going to post a Guide to Bards check out the rules first.
Can you just bold the part that says you get to take 2 swift actions? I just read it again, and you can take 2 move actions if you give up a standard action, but it keeps saying one swift or immediate action.
What you've posted supports what I was saying, that as far as I know, you can't give up a move action to take an extra swift action.
If anywhere in the rules says otherwise, please post where.
Please read the rules. It says any one. It doesn't say only one.Nor does it say "one or more", which it should, if that were the case. It says you can do one. If you can do two, it needs to say so.
I realize it doesn't [b]specifically say you can't, but it doesn't say, nor does it imply, that you can.
As Caelic said in the 10 commandments of Practical Optimization:
2. "The rules don't say I can't!" is not practical optimization.
The second commandment is like unto the first. There are many things that the rules don't explicitly say you can't do. The rules don't explicitly say you can't do the "I'm a Little Teapot" dance and instantly heal back to full starting hit points as a result. The rules don't explicitly say your first level character can't have a titanium-reinforced skeleton and cybernetic weaponry.
This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do--not what you can't. An underlying assumption is that, apart from common-sense actions which anyone can perform, the system will tell you if a given character has a given ability.