This comes from a guy who prefers wizard over sorcerer, and I always thought that sorcerer always gets a short end of the stick. So I tried to "fix" that by doing this
[IMG]http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6201/sorcerer.jpg[/IMG]
Sorcerer still has a maximum of 6 spells per day per spell level.
I just put him on same spell level progress with all full spellcasters and gave him an additional one spell know per spell level.
Any thoughts?
I did something similar with the Sorcerer for my campaign, though the changes I made were a bit more invasive.
Care to share them?
Also I realized I have a typo on spells known. At first level sorcerer knows two level 1 spells, not one as on sheet.
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Sorcerer still has a maximum of 6 spells per day per spell level.I just put him on same spell level progress with all full spellcasters and gave him an additional one spell know per spell level.
Any thoughts?
Is this using the Pathfinder sorcerer (including bloodlines and such)? If so, how do you justify giving the spontaneous caster equal access to spells as the prepared caster? The reason the sorcerer gains new spell levels slower than the wizard is that the sorcerer gains more spells per day with no need to prepare them in advance. If the sorcerer gains spells as a wizard, there is no longer a reason to play a wizard, right?
I found the easiest and most streamlined solution to be simply moving the bloodline spells down two levels.
Remove one spell known at 1st level (it's replaced by the bloodline spell), and return it at 2nd level. This has the happy side-effect of making 2nd level less boring.
At odd-numbered levels (starting with 3rd), give 1 spell per day of the upcoming level. So for instance, a 3rd-level elemental sorcerer gets one 2nd level slot (plus bonus if 14+ Cha) which he can only use to cast Scorching Ray. Importantly, he also qualifies for prestige classes which require 2nd level spells.
It would arguably be appropriate to give 2 base spells per day at the "bonus only" levels, so their slots-per-day progression doesn't have a jump. I'm going with 1 for my current group because it's a mighty big bone to the RAW sorcerer in the first place, but it probably wouldn't hurt things too badly. I mean, it's literally ZERO versatility. ;)
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I played a 3.5 sorcerer from 1 to 15 and never felt in the slightest was that I was falling behind or not doing anything I wanted too. Never lacked for versatility or had any trouble surviving.
That said personally I enjoy the boost that sorcerers got in the Pathfinder RPG compared to WotC's offerings, but I have noticed a trend in people seeing a problem where there isn't one.
Maybe it's just that the players in some games don't understand what the class is trying to accomplish and should simply suck it up and learn how to handle a spell book, maybe they'll learn that spells that are good for a wizard to know don't automatically have the same value to a Sorcerer. I don't really know.
A lot of DM's might find a better answer in asking themselves if the class is at fault for what they see as a problem or weakness, or if they've got a player who simply doesn't seem to understand or want to understand their class.
I don't think that pushing up their spell advancement is a good idea. Being a level behind is just part of how it works.
I also added one more total spell known per spell level
Interesting... do they start with 3 known at 1st level (2 + bonus), reaching 7 when a RAW sorcerer reaches 6, or did you move it up like I did and just keep adding spells for one more level?
they now deal 1d6+1d6/2 levels
Yowza! So does anyone still cast Acid Arrow? Does this also apply to clerics? What did you do with the gimpy Celestial bloodline power?
I forget if it was you or someone else who was talking about the bloodlines which grant claws, and when they gain elemental damage, making that the uses-per-day ability with the claws becoming at-will.
...and hey! You haven't joined my Google Group yet. :)
The reason to play the wizard is versatility, it's having the ability to prepare your daily selection of spells from a potentially vast pool of options.
And to play sorcerer is to have a huge "mana" pool but limited spells known. Also this is not a huge power boost that sorcerer gains, in my opinion of course, especially at higher levels where sorcerers and wizards of same level and same, or very close, primary casting attribute cast almost equally same amount of high level spells.
Anyway kyrt-ryder I put my email on my profile, so feel free to send that sorcerer goodies.
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Tell me something my friend. In those times you played a sorcerer and didn't feel behind, was there a wizard in the party? (A wizard played by an experienced, knowledgeable player mind, not somebody who doesn't understand the class)
Actually yes, a number of times we had a wizard or two at the table. Ones who knew how to get insane amounts of power and ability out of their class. You know, cast that memorization spell like 15 times before we go into a major combat so they've got like 50 1st-3rd level spells.
I didn't feel underpowered in the slightest and added just as much to combat and the other parts of the game. I also got to have fun telling people that I just didn't know spells they automatically assumed I had. That was awesome.
Plus I got a lot more use out of meta-magic feats then almost any other spell caster I saw in the game, short of the clerics who took that Divine feat that boosted their caster level.
I got knocked unconscious a few times but the only adventure I ever died in, so did 3 other people. (Full attack from a improved invisibility half-red dragon gnoll ranger with favored enemy human and two human bane weapons for the record.)
I played a 3.5 sorcerer for over 4 years. Trust me, the Pathfinder Sorc only got better. I don't have anything against wizards, but they aren't so much better that Sorcerers need any more of a boost then they got.
Seriously Morgen, sorry for the smartass comment, but while sorcerers can perform well, they literally do not match up to a wizard as presented in the game.
Tell me something my friend. In those times you played a sorcerer and didn't feel behind, was there a wizard in the party? (A wizard played by an experienced, knowledgeable player mind, not somebody who doesn't understand the class)
I have, too, although it was at higher levels. Frankly, I find the difference between throwing out a 5th level spell and throwing out a 6th level spell isn't that big, at least compared to being stuck with 1st level spells when everyone else is using 2nd level spells.
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IMO, spontaneous casting's potential scared the living daylights out of the developers of 3.0, so much that they pre-nerfed it tragically.
I'd be totally comfortable with the Sorcerer ceasing to exist as a class, and the Wizard, feats every five levels and all, getting a choice at 1st level to cast via preparation or spontaneously. If he picked preparation, he's a Wizard, same spell list and progression, same spellbook, etc. If he picked spontaneous, he can call himself a Sorcerer, if he wants, but he doesn't need a spellbook, can cast flexibly from a tiny list of Spells Known, gets an extra spell of each level per day and uses the same progression as a Wizard (gaining new levels of spells at 3rd, 5th, etc.) as well as a bonus Feat every 5 levels.
And then, in this hypothetical D&D 3.76, I'd offer the same choice to 1st level Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers and Adepts. They can cast spontaneously, and get more castings / day, flexible casting and a tiny little fixed Spells Known list, or via preparation, and use a 'prayerbook' which they must fill just like a Wizard, and cast their normal allotment of spells via daily preparation. It would make Sorcerers a bit stronger (what they should have been in 3.0, IMO), give Bards, Paladins and Rangers an unusual new option, and pretty strongly nerf Clerics and Druids, as they would now have either tiny Sorcerer-sized Spells Known lists or have to maintain a spellbook full of rituals and prayers and oblations, and add spells to it just like a Wizard does, rather than automagically knowing every single spell on the Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger spell lists.
IMO, the designers of 3.0 missed the boat with Spontaneous casting. I've never been a fan of Vancian fire-and-forget spellcasting, and have played many different systems with different sorts of flexible casting mechanics, without the universe exploding into the fiery apocalyptic paroxysm that the 3.0 designers seemed to fear would happen if the Sorcerer got bonus Feats or had the same spell progression as a Wizard. It's just not that big a deal, and ten years later, looking at CharOps forums full of Cleric / Druid / Wizard as top three, and Sorcerer as the red-headed stepchild 'worst choice' of full (core) casters, I think it should be obvious even to them that they really overreacted with their dire predictions of how overpowered spontaneous casting was going to be.
It's not worth an entire core class, IMO. It's sure as heck not worth the 'spontaneous Cleric' Favored Soul or the 'spontaneous Druid' Spirit Shaman classes, when it could just be a simple class choice that *any* spellcaster makes at 1st level, to keep a book of rotes and rites or to cast from the blood 'on the fly.'
I got your reply. I still haven't had a chance to fully read the bloodlines, and I want to do that before I say anything more. :)
IMO, spontaneous casting's potential scared the living daylights out of the developers of 3.0, so much that they pre-nerfed it tragically.
I'd be totally comfortable with the Sorcerer ceasing to exist as a class, and the Wizard, feats every five levels and all, getting a choice at 1st level to cast via preparation or spontaneously. If he picked preparation, he's a Wizard, same spell list and progression, same spellbook, etc. If he picked spontaneous, he can call himself a Sorcerer, if he wants, but he doesn't need a spellbook, can cast flexibly from a tiny list of Spells Known, gets an extra spell of each level per day and uses the same progression as a Wizard (gaining new levels of spells at 3rd, 5th, etc.) as well as a bonus Feat every 5 levels.
And then, in this hypothetical D&D 3.76, I'd offer the same choice to 1st level Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers and Adepts. They can cast spontaneously, and get more castings / day, flexible casting and a tiny little fixed Spells Known list, or via preparation, and use a 'prayerbook' which they must fill just like a Wizard, and cast their normal allotment of spells via daily preparation. It would make Sorcerers a bit stronger (what they should have been in 3.0, IMO), give Bards, Paladins and Rangers an unusual new option, and pretty strongly nerf Clerics and Druids, as they would now have either tiny Sorcerer-sized Spells Known lists or have to maintain a spellbook full of rituals and prayers and oblations, and add spells to it just like a Wizard does, rather than automagically knowing every single spell on the Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Ranger spell lists.
IMO, the designers of 3.0 missed the boat with Spontaneous casting. I've never been a fan of Vancian fire-and-forget spellcasting, and have played many different systems with different sorts of flexible casting mechanics, without the universe exploding into the fiery apocalyptic paroxysm that the 3.0 designers seemed to fear would happen if the Sorcerer got bonus Feats or had the same spell...
I like that idea a lot for wizards. I think for druids it might be a little too powerful actually. I find myself casting a few spells like barkskin and resist energy from the 2nd level table a lot, but never flaming sphere, possibly because I have yet to see anything fail the saving throw and take 1 point of damage, but that's a different issue :) Wizards have such a huge spell list and so many good choices. Druid-Clerics have a few spells that would be easy to take at the exclusion of the others. Esp. when clerics get Miracle and can duplicate any spell they need if it does come up.
I found the easiest and most streamlined solution to be simply moving the bloodline spells down two levels.
Remove one spell known at 1st level (it's replaced by the bloodline spell), and return it at 2nd level. This has the happy side-effect of making 2nd level less boring.
We suggested something nearly identical during the beta. Unfortunately Jason was pretty set against it. IMO it's a great 'fix' for the sorcerer and a lot of the issues around the class (delayed qualifying for feats and PrCs being one big one).
Any thoughts?
Your solution seems to work... I'm just loathe to add more tables to the game. What I did as a not-quite-so-fleshed out solution was to make the Sorcerer's CHA bonus applicable to both the Spells Per Day and Spells Known table.
~sr
I was going to boost a simple solution of just giving sorcerers one extra spell known per level. At each level, the sorcerer picks a spell of a level that he can currently cast, and adds it to his spells known.
I appreciate the bloodline abilities that Paizo gave sorcerers, although they're not as nifty as the abilities given to clerics and wizards. My first Pathfinder character was a cleric and at 1st level she was a magic chick laying down Rune squares and arcanely tossing her weapon and casting spells here and there. My 1st level sorceress has a few tricks but mainly kills monsters with her spear and crossbow. It's like playing a bard only without the combat abilities or skills.
But I think just one more spell known per level would help the sorcerer out, making the class a primary arcane caster without infringing on the wizard's right to be the guy with the spell for every occasion.
Why not simply, "You gain a +2 bonus on caster level checks."
That applies to spell resistance and concentration checks too.
I'm gonna be a rebel and leave Sorcerers the way they are because they are fine.
Don't nerf stacking for a class feature which gives a lesser bonus. If you're worried about it being too strong, just reduce it to a +1 bonus.
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The sorcerer is NOT supposed to match up to a wizard. What they are is thier own individually defined niche a niche which will vary by bloodline and by player skill. If you feel left behind as a sorcerer compared to a wizard of equal level, then you're simply not playing the class as well as it can be played.
I don't think that pushing up their spell advancement is a good idea. Being a level behind is just part of how it works.
By that logic why do we even need the Fighter class, everybody can just use the Warrior npc class instead.
Seriously Morgen, sorry for the smartass comment, but while sorcerers can perform well, they literally do not match up to a wizard as presented in the game.
And that right there, is a philosophy I can't subscribe to. No class should simply be better than another.
Sorc's and wizards should be different yes, but there is NO REASON for the Wizard to be better than the Sorcerer, and in PF Core it is.
Kyrt, are you on something man? I don't mean to SOUND rude, but I don't get how you THINK that the sorceror is inferior to the wizard. The Sorceror has always been the guy that when you KNOW what spells you want to take, you take. Its mainly because he does a few things really well, and the wizards is your arcane jack of all trades.
That doesn't make the wizard better than the sorcerer, it doesn't make the sorcerer better than the wizard. At this point, because of Pathfinder it is like comparing apples to oranges. Bloodlines do differing things than school specialization. A wizard can prepare out of school spells by making them take two slots, while the Sorcerer gets spells with impunity.
Sorcerers can jack the Arcane bond if they wish, and then be just as versatile as a wizard in certain circumstances. Or, they could even take the feat and do it twice, just like a wizard.
I just don't get how people keep thinking the sorcerer HAS to be the EXACT same as a wizard. That was NOT the design intent. Design intent was the Sorcerer fills a niche and does it really fracking well. Wizard is your jack of all trades, in that he can learn a lot of spells, then prepare based off the knowledge present. Yes this makes him stronger, but it doesn't make the Sorcerer weaker. It just means you have to play the Sorcerer a bit smarter and realize you cannot possibly be that versatile all the time, so its better if you specialize to a larger degree. You may not be able to shine in every fight, but in no way should a class shine in every fight. Otherwise the Fighter and the Rogue get no spotlight time either.
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Any thoughts?Your solution seems to work... I'm just loathe to add more tables to the game. What I did as a not-quite-so-fleshed out solution was to make the Sorcerer's CHA bonus applicable to both the Spells Per Day and Spells Known table.
~sr
That is a gorgeous and easy fix IMO. As is, a sorcerer is supposed to be casting more than a wizzo but the reality is usually that sorcerer gives up the access to higher level spells by a level and gets 1 more spell than a wizzo. I always thought that sucked, but adding a couple is cool to me, and using the Cha bonus chart to do it is brilliant.
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Dissinger, my biggest problem is how in core Sorcerers are a spell level behind in the progression.
You fix that, without any other changes, and I'd happily play a sorcerer in the same game as a wizard.
Do I consider it quite a perfect match? Nope, but at least there isn't this gaping power gap.
I have made several changes to the sorc, and two small changes to the wizard (one a minor nerf to using scrolls/wands/staves of banned schools, and one a reasonable versatility buff, but not a big power increase) that brought them closer in line.
If you want the email Dissinger, all you've got to do is ask.
For me, I kinda like that, it makes me feel a bit more organic. Yes, it sucks at times to wait for every even level for a new spell level, and level 2 is going to be such a drag at times, but I like the feeling that I'm growing as a magical abomination, rather than book learning. It just feels organic to me, but then again I guess that's why there are house rules.
Then again my Sorcerer was kicked in the nuts by the party dwarf cleric.
So Potatoe Potatoh.
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And again the logical response is that it's part of the balance. Wizards are the casters that study magic as opposed to the mutants which are just born with it. So given thier restrictions of memorisation and fewer spell slots, the spell level advantage is a balancing factor. It's only a "gaping power gap" to those folks who play sorcerers that really want to be wizards without the hangups, they want spell level, they want spell versatility, without having to deal with spell prepration.Dissinger, my biggest problem is how in core Sorcerers are a spell level behind in the progression.
Ok, first off, the wizard and sorcerer in my campaign, with my houserules, are performing pretty much equally, neither is better than the other, and both have their own style, flair, and flavor
Secondly, while you see sorcerers are mutants that are 'just born with it' I see Sorcerers as physical manifestations of Arcane Power.
They are SUPPOSED to be the equal of wizards in terms of their access to magic, it's a part of who they are.
The thing is, Wizards get Spell Versatility, Sorcerers get spontanious casting of a limited list. That's the difference.
Bolded part is subjective. They are supposed to be equal in power, not in how they access it.
A concept which occurred to me while reading through Kyrt's draft the other day (sorry I still haven't gotten to bloodlines!) really helped me pin down the way I personally think the classes should feel mechanically:
Wizards are better at knowing spells.
Sorcerers are better at casting them.
On the flavor and roleplay side we've already got plenty of division between the two classes, and I think that this brings a solid guideline to making crunch out of the difference between deliberate study and inborn talent.
And within that framework, late access to each spell level is actually a reasonable concept. Whether it's fair is another question, but it does at least make flavor-sense. That's why I'm still going with the minimal remedy for that issue, and only that issue: bumping the bonus spell down 2 levels, and granting 1 base spell per day to use it. Still terribly restricted, but you get at least a taste of an equal-level wizard's power, and more importantly you qualify for Mystic Theurge at 3rd level like every other full caster.
Kyrt's ideas for slightly bigger changes are definitely worth investigating, though, if only for academic purposes. :)
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I'd like to take a moment so just sit right back and I'll...wait, that's wrong. Sorry.
I'd like to take a moment to make a point. A wizard is a jack of all trades, and able to be much more prepared but with the exception of the arcane bond for the Pathfinder RPG, having a spell siting in your spell book doesn't automatically mean you prepared it. There is a lot you can do to prepare for a day of adventuring, and the wizard has the ability to adapt for it, but that doesn't mean that he's always going to have the spell for the job memorized.
This wizards vs sorcerers thing always seems to paint the wizard as always memorizing every spell he knows at all times for some reason.
Plus there is such a thing as being over prepared as well. Loading up on buffs and utility spells hurts a wizard much more then a sorcerer taking say fly or invisibility as one of their spells if combat rolls around, especially if they haven't had a need to cast the spell.
Playing a Wizard is and should be an enjoyable and challenging experience, just as playing a Sorcerer or any other class.
That is a gorgeous and easy fix IMO. As is, a sorcerer is supposed to be casting more than a wizzo but the reality is usually that sorcerer gives up the access to higher level spells by a level and gets 1 more spell than a wizzo. I always thought that sucked, but adding a couple is cool to me, and using the Cha bonus chart to do it is brilliant.Any thoughts?Your solution seems to work... I'm just loathe to add more tables to the game. What I did as a not-quite-so-fleshed out solution was to make the Sorcerer's CHA bonus applicable to both the Spells Per Day and Spells Known table.
~sr
Glad you like it - feel free to use it, FH. :)
The other reason I like it is because CHA is the most under-utilized stat in the game (at least in 3.x), in my opinion. That is not defame the system. CHA is way more useful in 3.x than it was in any of the previous editions... but it still doesn't carry the same 'all around usefulness' weight that STR, DEX, CON, or INT have. Really, only the 3 CHA based classes have a strong reason to pump it... and clerics can see an undead-handling side bennie from it (again in 3.x).
Then again my Sorcerer was kicked in the nuts by the party dwarf cleric.
So Potatoe Potatoh.
Giving the kicking... I think those are MASHED taters. :) Sorry, couldn't resist it.
My complaint about the sorcerer is that, at least at low levels, which is where I usually end up playing a sorcerer, the class does not fill the role of a sorcerer as well as a wizard can.
The big thing about the sorcerer is the spontaneous casting, which means you can choose which spell you cast when you cast it, rather than when you prepare at the beginning of the game day. You can say it's because you are a "mutant", or you can say its because, unlike the person who has a stack of books in her library, you've taken care to memorize a smaller reprotroire that you can recite without prompting.
But at 1st level, a sorcerer only knows 2 1st level spells. My experience is that Mage Armor is a must have. That means that, after starting a combat and casting Mage Armor so she doesn't get knocked out right away, a 1st level sorcerer can choose between casting one spell. That's not a choice.
In a way, Pathfinder made it worse by making cantrips more powerful. My 3.5 sorceress knew 4 cantrips, but her advantage over a wizard was that she could choose which cantrip to cast when she cast it, rather than preparing a number of castings of Light and a number of castings of Daze, etc. But in Pathfinder, cantrips are not used up, so my sorceress with 4 cantrips that she can cast as much as she wants is the same as a wizard with 4 cantrips that she can cast as much as she wants.
The elemental ray helps out a lot, but that's exactly like the wizard's throw melee weapon ability.