Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.You mean the notoriously under-CR monsters that completely demolished level-appropriate parties? The ones Paizo swore up and down they'd be fixing with the Bestiary? :3I'm talking about 'appropriately leveled encounters' with one. I had 5 characters and 1 cohort (all 8th or 9th level, 6th level cohort) against an adult black dragon. All were monster PC's.
Fight lasted three rounds. Dragon attacked from ambush (but they knew he was there, so all he got was first attack, not a free round), hit the duskblade and took down half his hit points. Everyone swarmed the dragon, then the druid cast 'Mass Snake Swiftness' and everyone got another tag on him. Second round he unloaded a breath weapon that didn't work (the cleric had cast acid resist on everyone ahead of time). Everyone unloads on the dragon again, druid casts 'mass snakeswiftness' and 2 more people get a second attack. Third round, dragon unloads on duskblade, kills him dead as a doornail, does some major damage to the kobold marshal with his remaining attacks. Everyone unloads on the dragon (including the marshal who uses an exploding spike he's been saving since 5th level). Druid casts 'mass snake swiftness' 2 people get extra attack. Dragon, down to 8 hps, takes off straight up and flies off, everyone whiffed their AoO.
The duskblade would have died the second round had the dragon not wasted it with a breath weapon to get more people. So, very similar to the dire lion story.
The dragon cheated. They have a clumsy fly speed they can't go straight up :)
The dragon cheated. They have a clumsy fly speed they can't go straight up :)Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.You mean the notoriously under-CR monsters that completely demolished level-appropriate parties? The ones Paizo swore up and down they'd be fixing with the Bestiary? :3I'm talking about 'appropriately leveled encounters' with one. I had 5 characters and 1 cohort (all 8th or 9th level, 6th level cohort) against an adult black dragon. All were monster PC's.
Fight lasted three rounds. Dragon attacked from ambush (but they knew he was there, so all he got was first attack, not a free round), hit the duskblade and took down half his hit points. Everyone swarmed the dragon, then the druid cast 'Mass Snake Swiftness' and everyone got another tag on him. Second round he unloaded a breath weapon that didn't work (the cleric had cast acid resist on everyone ahead of time). Everyone unloads on the dragon again, druid casts 'mass snakeswiftness' and 2 more people get a second attack. Third round, dragon unloads on duskblade, kills him dead as a doornail, does some major damage to the kobold marshal with his remaining attacks. Everyone unloads on the dragon (including the marshal who uses an exploding spike he's been saving since 5th level). Druid casts 'mass snake swiftness' 2 people get extra attack. Dragon, down to 8 hps, takes off straight up and flies off, everyone whiffed their AoO.
The duskblade would have died the second round had the dragon not wasted it with a breath weapon to get more people. So, very similar to the dire lion story.
Nope, he had a couple of feats, 'large and in charge' and 'improved flight' so he had average flight speed. The kobold in particular HATED large and in charge, he couldn't get in to attack, kept getting knocked back. ;)
Nope, he had a couple of feats, 'large and in charge' and 'improved flight' so he had average flight speed. The kobold in particular...The dragon cheated. They have a clumsy fly speed they can't go straight up :)Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.You mean the notoriously under-CR monsters that completely demolished level-appropriate parties? The ones Paizo swore up and down they'd be fixing with the Bestiary? :3I'm talking about 'appropriately leveled encounters' with one. I had 5 characters and 1 cohort (all 8th or 9th level, 6th level cohort) against an adult black dragon. All were monster PC's.
Fight lasted three rounds. Dragon attacked from ambush (but they knew he was there, so all he got was first attack, not a free round), hit the duskblade and took down half his hit points. Everyone swarmed the dragon, then the druid cast 'Mass Snake Swiftness' and everyone got another tag on him. Second round he unloaded a breath weapon that didn't work (the cleric had cast acid resist on everyone ahead of time). Everyone unloads on the dragon again, druid casts 'mass snakeswiftness' and 2 more people get a second attack. Third round, dragon unloads on duskblade, kills him dead as a doornail, does some major damage to the kobold marshal with his remaining attacks. Everyone unloads on the dragon (including the marshal who uses an exploding spike he's been saving since 5th level). Druid casts 'mass snake swiftness' 2 people get extra attack. Dragon, down to 8 hps, takes off straight up and flies off, everyone whiffed their AoO.
The duskblade would have died the second round had the dragon not wasted it with a breath weapon to get more people. So, very similar to the dire lion story.
The dragon cheated. He had an average fly speed. They can't go straight up :) You need perfect fly speed to go straight up in 3.5, that's why dragons learned the fly spell :) average will get you a 60 degree angle.
Ok, so he took off at a steep angle. There wasn't enough characters to stop him.
Or he could diagonal around it and then charge.
Not all in the same round, he couldn't. Charge is a full-round action (except when you only have a single action, of course), so you can't take a move action then charge; it's also movement, so you can't 5' step then charge.
It does when you don't need to move and live in an environment with concealment.But concealment doesn't count in bright sunlight, remember?
Must be why lions are nocturnal hunters in general...and why they laze about during "bright light" conditions...
All were monster PC's.There's your problem. Monster PCs are notoriously fragile for their level.
Uhm,
Not really. Only two of the 5 had level adjustments. Poisondusk Lizardfolk (no adjust), Duerger (No adjust), Kobold (no adjust), Half-giant (+1 ECL), and a +3 ECL druid. So... the majority were full level with no weaknesses. No more than any human or elf would have had anyway. And, there were 6 total characters on the PC's side.
And 25 perception is not too much to ask for lvl 5. 5 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 feat (rogue is well served by taking this) OR + 3 WIS (from druid) + 5 magic item = +16 or 26 taking 10. The lion is spotted. Or another PC got a lucky roll. THEY got to roll 4 times, while our Lion only got to take 10....seriously? I don't expect it's reasonable to expect that from your average party. And keep in mind that half or more of the party doesn't even get to roll. You need a +5 modifier at least just to be able to have a chance.
I'd expect at least on party member to be able to spot things. The Perception skill is class skill for Barbarians, Bards, Druids, monks, Rangers, rogues and the Draconic socercer blood line. That's 11 classes where 6 have perception as class skill and 1 blood line does. I think it's reasonable that you have at least one or two good spotters in party of 5 players. Add that any Elf in the party gets a bonus of +2 as well and I've yet and people love playing elves as well the Half-elf gets the same bonus plus skill focus which could easily be perception. Animals could a rangers favored enemy giving the ranger a +4 to spot the Dire Lion. If terrian is favored that's another +2 spot.
So really in this situation the ranger is the best. Half-Elven Ranger with skill focus perception as their free skill focus with the animals as their favored enemy in their favored terrain would have +21 perception to spot a dire lion. If the ranger took Alertness too they have a +23 but I doubt any 5th level ranger would take that feat as there are better things to take.
Now if you are in area where there known to dire lions a ranger would be good idea have along but even if you didn't you could have druid with +12 easy enough due Wisdom bonus. The rogue, bard, monk and barbarian might and draconic sorcerer have +9 assuming no feats and wisdom bonus of +1.
So would think it would be unlikely but possible to have party of 5 players who all have very poor perception skills. I know when I play perception is something I always take a boost up as high as possible even if it's not a class skill. Of course I might not get it to where I want by 5th level though.
As a DM I wouldn't put Dire Tiger against a party that I know can't handle it. As for my players the wouldn't trek into the wilderness where they could get ambushed by dire lions if they knew they weren't really qualified to do that. They'd hire a guide such as ranger for that area.
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Honestly that's not much difference from a dragon, dragons get so many attacks that they can usually take down someone in one round once the fight starts, and if they can ambush someone, then someone usually dies the surprise round.You mean the notoriously under-CR monsters that completely demolished level-appropriate parties? The ones Paizo swore up and down they'd be fixing with the Bestiary? :3
Well, don't you think your tone is a bit insulting there? This is exactly why I'm a bit fed up with these posts that seem to imply that Paizo has "broken" or "ruined" the mechanics.
And what do you expect out of a level-appropriate 3E/PF RPG encounter? That nobody ever dies, because it's "unfair" and "not fun"? 4E already fits the bill, if "absolute" balance is your cup of tea.
How about a 6th level halfling rogue (also CR 5) with Dex 20 who maxes out Stealth (Skill Focus & Stealthy)? Let's throw in Cloak of Elvenkind, and he has +28 total modifier, right? Even if he gets -20 on subsequent Stealth checks while sniping, it's still +8, which means that basically only the party's rogue has a fair chance to spot him. What if this halfling uses level-appropriate poison? What if he's carrying a couple of Potions of Invisibility on top of it all? Heck, maybe we should make him Fighter 3/Rogue 3, pick Precise Shot and Rapid Shot as bonus feats to complement SA and poison, and make sure he targets spellcasters first? I'm fairly sure that this sort of fight would be much, much harder for most groups than a Dire Lion.
Ultimately it all comes down to which characters there are in the party, how they've invested their skill ranks, which items they're carrying and so on and so on. For example, a druid might turn that Dire Lion fight into a cakewalk (happened in my group with a 5th level druid in a supposedly tough Owlbear fight... yeah, it practically ended on the first round).
What I'm trying to say is that against level-appropriate foes/monsters, combat is "swingy" and a single roll might decide the outcome (regardless of the level; although it's more typical in both low and high levels).
word to that!
All I know is look at him, then look at other CR 5 critters. He is in the same power levels. Sure he does more damage them some, has less hp then some, has a lower Attack then some. Cats like dragons tend to have a slightly better damage then most other things there CR. Some things are just better at some things but he is still in line with the powerlevels of other critters of the same CR
Could somebody please point me to where Pathfinder/Paizo says that a level appropriate challenge (CR = average party level) is supposed to be a Swingy, hard fight?
Because in 3.5, CR appropriate is supposed to be a cakewalk, 1/4 your resources etc.
I hardly think "cakewalk" is the appropriate term here, I seem to remember the 3.5DMG stating that a "level appropriate challenge" is average to difficult, I could be wrong though.
Case in point
Dire line: AC 15
HD:5D8+10(32}
aTT: Melee bite +7 (1d8+5 plus grab), 2 claws +7 (1d4+5)
Sp:pounce, rake (2 claws +7, 1d4+5)
CMB +9 (+13 grapple); CMD 22 (26 vs. trip)
Basilisk
AC:17
HD:(7d10+14) 52 HP
Att:bite +10 (1d8+4)
sp:gaze[flesh to stone]
CMB +10; CMD 19 (31 vs. trip)
Winter wolf
AC: 17
HD:(6d10+24) 57HP
Att:bite +10 (1d8+7 plus 1d6 cold and trip)
SP: breath weapon (every 1d4 rounds, 15-ft. cone, 6d6 cold damage, Reflex half DC 17)
CMB +12; CMD 23 (27 vs. trip)
Manticore
ac:17
HD:6d10+24)
ATT:bite +10 (1d8+5), 2 claws +10 (2d4+5)
CMB +12; CMD 24 (28 vs. trip)
Ok I have listed 4 of 28 CR 5 monsters in the book
As you can see the direlion is in the same power range. He is stealthy and has good damage but low AC and low HP. He is glass, a skirmisher and really can not stand up to a fight. It really does even out
Edit: another CR5 critter the troll, has more hp, better ac, does more damage and regens . Oh and he hits more often too.
that was kinda the point, the OP was saying it was to powerful for CR5 when it's on the low end of cr5 really. Are some weaker are some stronger but it's no where near as bad as the OP made out. If your party can not handle a direlion at level 5 I hope they never run into a troll, or something worse like a CR6 critter
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The lion has nestled down into the dry grass, a task it has done many times before.
Bill the fighter is at the head of the party, as they traipse down the...
Then the lion spot Bill, and stands up. End of the surpise round (move action).
I don't think the dire lion can hide while in the normal (standing) position, cause he his 10x10 which also means 10 foot high, and would need 10 foot high grass to hide behind! (in such case this high grass/undergrowth would impede movement and prevent him from charging).
The party has a much better chance now...
Dire Lion: "Dammit, which button is the crouch button? I HATE THIS GAME!"
Party: "How many lion heads did we need for this quest?"
Your thinking is flawed. Large predators such as a lion will run if injured. They tend to hit one target then back off if attacked in force. It'll just stalk and hit the weak prey again, they do not mindlessly attack like zombies
Fun facts as nothing but attack and damage and stealth works for you
Direlion +stealth +8[16 in overgrowth]
Init:+7
AC:15
HP 37
Melee bite +7 (1d8+5 plus grab), 2 claws +7 (1d4+5)
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +7, 1d4+5)
MAx damage :49
Air elemental =stealth +11
iNIT:+11
AC:21
HP:68
Melee 2 slams +14 (1d8+4)
Special Attacks whirlwind (DC 18)
Max damage:24[note whirlwind as well fun}
Note: has DR5/-
Winter wolf
sTELTH:+10
Init:+5
AC:17
HP:57
Melee bite +10 (1d8+7 plus 1d6 cold and trip)
Special Attacks breath weapon (every 1d4 rounds, 15-ft. cone, 6d6 cold damage, Reflex half DC 17)
Max damage:57
now we have stealth checks with +10 being about common but some have +13
he is indeed in line if a little weak with cr5, his weakness is made up by the high end damage{not the highest mind you} and the high stealth{if in his native area}
Now if ya want to talk ugly CR5 ambush look at the Wraith
For one he is incorporeal, so he can walk though walls, over obsticals and all round make for a bad day
Stealth+11
Init:+7
AC:17
HP:47
Melee incorporeal touch +6 (1d6 negative energy plus 1d6 Con drain)
mAX DAMAGE: 6HP AND 6 POINTS OF CON!
pure mean, and after I hit i just walk though that there wall and shadow you with my +11 stealth, moving though walls and floors with ease
Agasin the lion while sneaky and gets one good hit in, is not all that
There was an important post above that I think got missed.
Dire lions are animals, and animals don't fight to the death mindlessly unless cornered.
Let's all say that again and let it sink in.
Dire lions are animals, and animals don't fight to the death mindlessly unless cornered.
What this means is that any animal should, after taking 1/2 it's hit points in damage, be scared and run away. It's fight or flight response, and 99% of the time it's flight if possible.
I was in a game playing a warmage. We were being attacked by a t-rex, and he had already been wounded. I got unlucky enough to come out of the obscuring mist right next to him. I had ring of blades up. He bit down on me and picked me up in his teeth. Now, immediately he took something like 10 pts of damage from that. And the next two rounds, while people whaled on him from below and while the whirling blades shredded his head for another 20-24 pts the GM insisted the animal would not let go of something shredding his mouth to pieces because he was hungry. My character and the t-rex died the same round. In total I did over 40 points of damage directly to this things mouth/head while it bit me. But the GM said it didn't let me go. I got so ticked off over that I quit the game about a month or two later.
As a GM, you have to play your creatures realistically, and I'm sure the designers are using realistically controlled animals when they set the CR's.
That dire lion does a lot of damage, but he's got low hit points. He takes one or two hits from a level 5 party, he's not dead, but he's going to be running away at full speed to go lick his wounds. He'll probably think three or four times before attacking a human again. The characters get XP for winning, not killing. If they chase him off, they succeeded.
There was an important post above that I think got missed.
Dire lions are animals, and animals don't fight to the death mindlessly unless cornered.
Let's all say that again and let it sink in.
Dire lions are animals, and animals don't fight to the death mindlessly unless cornered.
What this means is that any animal should, after taking 1/2 it's hit points in damage, be scared and run away. It's fight or flight response, and 99% of the time it's flight if possible.
I was in a game playing a warmage. We were being attacked by a t-rex, and he had already been wounded. I got unlucky enough to come out of the obscuring mist right next to him. I had ring of blades up. He bit down on me and picked me up in his teeth. Now, immediately he took something like 10 pts of damage from that. And the next two rounds, while people whaled on him from below and while the whirling blades shredded his head for another 20-24 pts the GM insisted the animal would not let go of something shredding his mouth to pieces because he was hungry. My character and the t-rex died the same round. In total I did over 40 points of damage directly to this things mouth/head while it bit me. But the GM said it didn't let me go. I got so ticked off over that I quit the game about a month or two later.
As a GM, you have to play your creatures realistically, and I'm sure the designers are using realistically controlled animals when they set the CR's.
That dire lion does a lot of damage, but he's got low hit points. He takes one or two hits from a level 5 party, he's not dead, but he's going to be running away at full speed to go lick his wounds. He'll probably think three or four times before attacking a human again. The characters get XP for winning, not killing. If they chase him off, they succeeded.
+1
That dire lion does a lot of damage, but he's got low hit points. He takes one or two hits from a level 5 party, he's not dead, but he's going to be running away at full speed to go lick his wounds. He'll probably think three or four times before attacking a human again. The characters get XP for winning, not killing. If they chase him off, they succeeded.
Also +1, particularly for the bolded bit.
The characters get XP for winning, not killing.Also +1, particularly for the bolded bit.
+2. I also give partial XP for losing, if you escape and survive.
MiB has a good point. There are behaviors that might make an animal weaker than some other creatures, but the listed values and tactics employed by the dire lion really make it stand out as a CR5. In fact, I think a party of 4 5th level characters has a better chance of losing one of their number to a dire lion than a CR6 Half-Fiend Minotaur.
I believe the stealth will be errata'd down to +11 in undergrowth, making it not quite as bad, but it's still bad enough to make it easily one of the most dangerous CR5 encounters. Of course, if it doesn't kill you in the first round, there are other creatures that can cause you trouble by flying to keep out of melee, going invisible at will, etc. The dire lion is the best at killing before you can draw your sword out of its scabbard, though.
It seems like cats in general are a little better than their CR.
It seems like cats in general are a little better than their CR.
I'm not sure where you get that ideAAGH MY SPLEEN! MITTENS, HOW COULD YOU?
It seems like cats in general are a little better than their CR.I'm not sure where you get that ideAAGH MY SPLEEN! MITTENS, HOW COULD YOU?
:)
However, if you reduce it's stealth, or increase its CR, depriving it of its one good move, then it's kind of a pointless monster. With no surprise, it's a glass cannon with its cannonball removed, and is just a big piece of glass, waiting to be shattered in a round or two and kicked out of the way on the path to something more interesting.MiB has a good point. There are behaviors that might make an animal weaker than some other creatures, but the listed values and tactics employed by the dire lion really make it stand out as a CR5. In fact, I think a party of 4 5th level characters has a better chance of losing one of their number to a dire lion than a CR6 Half-Fiend Minotaur.
I believe the stealth will be errata'd down to +11 in undergrowth, making it not quite as bad, but it's still bad enough to make it easily one of the most dangerous CR5 encounters. Of course, if it doesn't kill you in the first round, there are other creatures that can cause you trouble by flying to keep out of melee, going invisible at will, etc. The dire lion is the best at killing before you can draw your sword out of its scabbard, though.
It seems like cats in general are a little better than their CR.
I agree to some extent. That's why I had trouble throwing in everything with MiB. I don't think it is broken, or that it should necessarily even be 1 CR higher. I just think it is a nasty monster that not all DMs will want to use. (Not all meaning those who are nice won't want to use it to its full potential.) There may be CR5 encounters that are better at TPK, but the Dire Lion kills Bill with some frequency before the fight starts.
I'm not advocating a reduction in stealth. I just think it will be reduced in errata because it has +4 Stealth (+8 in undergrowth). For all other monsters I've looked at, other than the Lion, that means its stealth is only 4 higher in undergrowth. That is, it doesn't get +12 stealth in undergrowth.
