While I myself am not a big fan of kobolds as being player characters, there is one person who plays in my campiagn that is. So, I (with input) decided to make the kobold ability score adjustments as follows (and keeping the rest of the Pathfinder Bestiary stats):
-4 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+2 Constitution
I never really went along with the idea that kobolds weren't tough. In fact, I have always envisioned the opposite. While they are smaller than gnomes, goblins, and halflings (as how we play them in my campaign), they are still reptilian humanoids, and thus I have always seen them as being tougher than how they are represented in most of the related material I have read.
On a side note, I almost considered lowering their Strength to just -2, as per the other Small races, and reducing their speed to 20 feet as a balance, but ultimately decided not to since my vision of kobolds has them being on the low end of the Small size category (slightly taller than Tiny size) -- thus, the reason for their -4 Strength.
Kobolds are sort of troglodytes+hobgoblins+goblins. They have the order of hobgoblins, numbers (and size)of goblins, and the undergroundyness and lizardness of trogs.
It seems to me that Paizo is trying to discourage people from playing monster races, or at least goblins and kobolds. As someone who has an unhealthy fascination with playable monster races, this leaves me somewhat cold.
I think kobolds should add +2 to the save DC or attack bonus of any traps they make, should keep their speed at 30, and should get that kenku ability that lets them get a +4 when flanking and stuff.
I believe this should put them on even footing with the other special ability-happy races. If not, throw in a bigger bonus to Stealth.
Then for goblins: Increase their Dex bonus, increase their Stealth bonus if possible, give them a bonus to Perform (sing) :D, and leave their 30 feet speed. Maybe give them that kenku ability, too/instead of kobolds.
/\Hey, I just thought of a cool idea: underground 'castles'! It's near impossible to get in, there being only one well-guarded gate, and it would span many dungeon levels, seeming like it's just a wall between one side of the passageway and the other. In truth, the passageway ends there, and beyond is part of the castle walls. It would have arrow slits, 'moats', everything a normal castle has. Inside the castle would be much like outside, but with staircases to the next level and such. If the enemy conquers one level, they seal off the other ones and continue the seige.
Not really suitable as a challenge for adventurers, since it'd be way to hard and there'd be way too many kobolds, but it'd be a cool way to play off the 'underground but advanced' theme. After all, the idea that hobgoblins and kobolds would have tribes seems silly. Like dwarves, they are lawful, so wouldn't it make sense for them to have a real nation? More sense than the elves and halflings.
Paizo has been very clear that it is simply a question of focus. The monster manual is set up for NPCs. They recognize that monster player characters are a biq question that deserves an elegant answer. I'd keep your eyes out for a monstrous character book when they get around to it.
See: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/removalOfECLs&page=1#9
I don't think they are discouraging anything, rather they are trying to do what they do well. Level adjustment was an unpopular compromise. If they let themselves be rushed they would either be perpetuating unsatisfying rules or rushing they're writing (which might amount to the same thing)
In the mean time there are ways to play monstrous characters. I expect they'll be looking at all the solutions they can dig up and we'll hear from them when they have something.
S
Who has a player who absolutely loves playing goblins. :)
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I dunno maybe i'm a total oddball but i so love and adore kobolds! my favorite race, and i own almost every source book i can get my hands on about the little guys.Do you, by chance, have this little number?
Plug that book Lil! Oh by the way yes I have this book.
if you love kobolds, how about the Koboldnomicon?
I personally don't know much about it, but I saw it on Amazon one day... not sure if it's still in print, but I believe it's a relatively recent release so it should be.
I understand that folks like kobolds... but as with pretty much EVERY MONSTER IN THE BOOK, they're built to be monsters. Not Player Character races. I can't say this enough, it seems.
In the kobold's case, it's meant to be a very fragile and wimpy monster, something that 1st level characters can fight several of at once. That means that in order to fill that niche and requirement, it HAS to be a pushover. That's what being a kobold means, really.
If you want tougher kobolds, fortunately, you can just stack class levels on them until they're wherever you want them to be. And if you want to play a kobold as a PC, well, you might be able to talk your GM into letting you take a bonus feat or something to offset the fact that your baseline racial abilities aren't as good as a core class, I guess... but until we officially do the Kobold Heroes Handbook, there's not really an official "patch" to make kobolds viable PC races. Because that's not what we need them to do in the core game.
I'm all for playing monstrous races and all, but I kinda have to go with James on this one. Kobolds are what they are; physically underwhelming on PURPOSE! When you guys start adding on all these adjustments and bring them up to par with Humans and Elves, you no longer have a Kobold; you have a Draconic Gnome/Halfling. The "Wyrmkin" decription lends itself very nicely by making an honest to goodness race quality, but they are distinctively NOT Kobolds.
You want to really play a Kobold as a PC? Do it AS IS. And you can certainly expect a hard time, because face it; you're playing a Kobold. You're playing as that thing that a single 1st level player can maul 10 of. If you're trying to play a kobold as an equal to the other demi-human races, you are betraying the very nature of the race. If they were meant to be on equal footing with the other Demi-human races, then 1st level players wouldn't sack hordes of them at a time, they wouldn't need traps and ambushes.
if you love kobolds, how about the Koboldnomicon?
I personally don't know much about it, but I saw it on Amazon one day... not sure if it's still in print, but I believe it's a relatively recent release so it should be.
I have it, and it has some really awesome stuff. Kobold races, feats, classes, prestige classes, spells, everything. I recommend it for any kobold lover.
/\ A race can be wimpy and still be a decent race. Just give them non-combat bonuses. Give them Stonecunning and such.
/\ A race can be wimpy and still be a decent race. Just give them non-combat bonuses. Give them Stonecunning and such.
That's fine, I agree. But all these other recommendations of lowering the strength penalty, increasing CON, etc, at least IMO, is changing too much of what a Kobold is.
It's like trying to play the underdog race, and then removing what makes it the underdog.
/\ A race can be wimpy and still be a decent race. Just give them non-combat bonuses. Give them Stonecunning and such.That's fine, I agree. But all these other recommendations of lowering the strength penalty, increasing CON, etc, at least IMO, is changing too much of what a Kobold is.
It's like trying to play the underdog race, and then removing what makes it the underdog.
Okay, so how about increased DCs and bonuses with kobold-made traps, or, better yet, increased speed, since that has hardly any effect on NPC kobolds but a fair amount of effect on PC ones. Then just give them maybe +1 damage when attacking from hiding, which can stack with sneak attacks. That seems a minor change which would accentuate the whole 'attack without warning' thing kobolds have.
Actually, that last one seems a bit much, if the idea is to keep them pathetic. A +2 Int seems to not affect combat, though, so we could give them that. Perhaps a bonus feat that isn't combat oriented, though.In short, here are my ideas (one wouldn't use all of them, only one or two, of course):
+2 Int,
+1 damage when target it flat-footed,
Bonus feat (something not too combat oriented),
Increased speed at making traps, and a
Increased save DCs and attack bonuses with kobold-made traps.
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I have to admit I'm more fond of the 1st ed non-draconic kobolds. I suppose I'm too steeped in folklore and bristle at the kobold name being used for basically draconic halflings.
I understand that folks like kobolds... but as with pretty much EVERY MONSTER IN THE BOOK, they're built to be monsters. Not Player Character races. I can't say this enough, it seems.
In the kobold's case, it's meant to be a very fragile and wimpy monster, something that 1st level characters can fight several of at once. That means that in order to fill that niche and requirement, it HAS to be a pushover. That's what being a kobold means, really.
If you want tougher kobolds, fortunately, you can just stack class levels on them until they're wherever you want them to be. And if you want to play a kobold as a PC, well, you might be able to talk your GM into letting you take a bonus feat or something to offset the fact that your baseline racial abilities aren't as good as a core class, I guess... but until we officially do the Kobold Heroes Handbook, there's not really an official "patch" to make kobolds viable PC races. Because that's not what we need them to do in the core game.
Why are goblins a strong choice for a race while kobolds are not?
I have to admit I'm more fond of the 1st ed non-draconic kobolds. I suppose I'm too steeped in folklore and bristle at the kobold name being used for basically draconic halflings.
Hardly. Kobolds are hugely different from halflings. They have nothing in common except their size.
/\ It seems that goblins are also comic relief. We now have two races in one niche. If we have to let one race suck, let it be the goblins.
I have to admit I'm more fond of the 1st ed non-draconic kobolds. I suppose I'm too steeped in folklore and bristle at the kobold name being used for basically draconic halflings.
I've been trying to find the stats for the original kobolds from 1st edition.
I want to update them to 3.5 / Pathfinder rules.
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Somewhere around here I've got a table that compares the various core PC races, with all of their various features being given a score. I forget the real details, but it assigns a value to each feature that a given race gets, trying to factor in situational stuff such as Hatred et cetera.
With that it's pretty easy to break down monster classes and un-converted 3.5 races, assign values to their features (based on how they compare to the core races) and decide what kind of adjustments they need, if any.
I think for Kobolds as PC races, I'd just adjust their racial ability modifiers to bring them in line with the usual "+2 overall" theme. Probably I'd change them to -2 strength (they're still small and physically weak, just not as much so as their NPC bretherin), +2 dexterity, and +2 either charisma or intelligence, most likely intelligence, because they are crafty and clever.
Somewhere around here I've got a table that compares the various core PC races, with all of their various features being given a score. I forget the real details, but it assigns a value to each feature that a given race gets, trying to factor in situational stuff such as Hatred et cetera.
With that it's pretty easy to break down monster classes and un-converted 3.5 races, assign values to their features (based on how they compare to the core races) and decide what kind of adjustments they need, if any.
I think for Kobolds as PC races, I'd just adjust their racial ability modifiers to bring them in line with the usual "+2 overall" theme. Probably I'd change them to -2 strength (they're still small and physically weak, just not as much so as their NPC bretherin), +2 dexterity, and +2 either charisma or intelligence, most likely intelligence, because they are crafty and clever.
I would think Int or Wis, actually.
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I think for Kobolds as PC races, I'd just adjust their racial ability modifiers to bring them in line with the usual "+2 overall" theme. Probably I'd change them to -2 strength (they're still small and physically weak, just not as much so as their NPC bretherin), +2 dexterity, and +2 either charisma or intelligence, most likely intelligence, because they are crafty and clever.
The combination of +1 natural armor and 30 ft. move speed combined with small size is, IMO, enough to warrant just leaving them with a -2 Str and +2 Dex modifier. It's already raising them +2 Str and +2 Con over the feeble baseline, and, I think, makes them pretty competitive with Halflings and Gnomes.
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The combination of +1 natural armor and 30 ft. move speed combined with small size is, IMO, enough to warrant just leaving them with a -2 Str and +2 Dex modifier. It's already raising them +2 Str and +2 Con over the feeble baseline, and, I think, makes them pretty competitive with Halflings and Gnomes.
I'm not so sure about that. Let's break it down a little bit. Kobolds get +1 ac, which is undeniably very good. Looking at Halflings, though, they get +1 to all saves, as well as a situational bonus of +2 versus fear effects. Gnomes get two situational defense bonuses, one vs giants and the other vs illusions. Gnomes have the disadvantage here, but I'd consider Halflings and Kobolds to be about equal.
For skills, Gnomes get +2 to perception and +2 to a craft/proffession of their choice. To me, that puts them on par with Halflings, who get +2 to three different skills, but they don't get to make a choice, so they might find one or more of those bonuses useless depending on the character. Kobolds get a very situational +2 to trapmaking, +2 to mining, and then the ever-useful +2 to perception. The trapmaking and mining are going to be useless for the large majority of PCs, so here, I think that Gnomes and Halflings both come out ahead.
Gnomes get low-light vision and Kobolds get Darkvision, with halflings stuck with plain-old vision, giving kobolds a definite edge here...except that they also have light sensitivity. Outside they're going to be feeling that -5% chance to hit for their entire career. I'd say this is enough to offset darkvision vs. low light vision, tying this category up between gnomes
...and then we get down to the various other benefits. Halflings and Gnomes both have weapon familiarity, giving them slightly more options. Gnomes get Hatred as well as Gnome Magic. Kobolds get the 30ft movement rate, and the disadvantage of not starting out with Common. Kobolds with an intelligence less than 12 have to put a rank into linguist just to be able to communicate with his groupmates. This can make the game more fun, from a roleplaying perspective, but if we were to use that logic, then kobolds sucking horribly wouldn't be an issue, as it would just make the game a more interesting challenge.
Overall I think it's reasonable to bump them up to an overall +2 for abilities.
Don't forget! They can get Improved Natural Armor if they have a 14 Con!
Which isn't very likely.