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Another thing I need cleared up, using the Lizardman again.
Lizardman, CR 1, 2d8 HD, nice bonuses.
If a PC plays one in a campaign starting at level 2. He takes the 2 HD, adds a character level, all the bonuses and the rest of the party who play standard races get 2 levels.
So the Lizardman starts out with 8 (I assume it is 4 per monster HD) skill points + Class Skill points + Int Bonus x3, 2d8 + Class HD + Con Bonus x3, +1 BaB + Class BaB.
So a Lizardman Fighter vs. a Dwarf fighter with Identical stats would be on average rolls with +2 Con, 27 HP vs. 21 HP. Skill Points with no Int Bonus, 10 vs 4 and Identical BaB with the only difference being that he will be 1 level behind until they reach level 4 and then he gets a free level to catch up?
Something just smacks wrong about that. I was hoping that a better solution to the difficulties of ECLs but this is just seems inherently flawed.
Creative Director
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First of all... Lizardfolk were designed to be monsters. Not PC races. If you allow a lizardfolk player character, the rules will all work fine, but you're using the game in a way that it wasn't designed, really, to be used. Its like using a wrench to tenderize meat, or a knife to dig out a piece of spinach stuck between your teeth, or a car to open a gate. The tool will do the job, but the results can be... unpredictable.
Mixing monsters with the core PC races are ALWAYS going to result in problems like this. The only way you can really address them is to adjust things on the fly, and perhaps game with players who are mature and won't freak out if one player's character is "more powerful" than another's.
Frankly, the idea of playing monsters as PCs is its own book. It's not something that can be adequately solved in the Bestiary, which is about giving GMs monsters to use as NPCs or foes for PCs to fight. We'll probably do a book some day that takes a good long look at how monsters can work as PC races, but that book WON'T be a Bestiary-style book.
All other things being equal, a lizardfolk PC is pretty much always gonna be better than the dwarf or human or gnome or half-orc or half-elf or halfling or elf PC. The best you can do if you want to let a player play a lizardfolk while the other players play normal races is to either give the non-lizardfolk PCs a head start on XP or levels or something like that, or to rebuild the lizardfolk as a 0-HD race on par with the core races. There's no real easy option. The game simply isn't built that way.
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There's no real easy option. The game simply isn't built that way.
Excellent! I love a challenge. Honestly I just didn't want to think I was missing anything.
We will likely keep the HD = CL to keep things fair and find a way to mitigate some of the other power discrepancies. Lucky enough to have an experienced group of lifetime gamers who are used to
using a wrench to tenderize meat, or a knife to dig out a piece of spinach stuck between your teeth, or a car to open a gate.
i.e. The Wrench works fine if you clean it. How big/sharp is the knife in question and is the spinach in the back teeth? And are we being chased by the cops, chasing a squirrel that stole our severed thumb or escaping from a sanitarium (all 3 cases cars are great for opening gates).
First I question exactly what the ability bonuses you came up with for Lizardfolk...a rough guess from default stats I see +2Str/+2Con/-2Int. A fairly standard array of bonuses.
Secondly, Skill points are listed in the Bestiary starting on page 306 based on creature type, Lizardfolk being a humanoid gives it 2+INT per HD.
You started with a 2nd level party...a 2nd level dwarf fighter with +2Con I only figure to have about 16HP ((d10 average of 5,+2Con,+1Favored) x 2 levels)...if he chooses the bonus HP for favored class per level. And the Lizardman fighter would average 19HP ((d8 average 4,+2Con) x 2) + d10 average 5,+2Con) so I don't see 19 vs. 16 being a distortion.
Skill pts would be Lizardman 6+(INTx3) vs. 4+(INTx2)for the dwarf so another slight advantage to Lizardman.
Base saves the Lizardman has another advantage with +4Fort racial (giving him +6 at 2nd level) vs. the Dwarf being a +3 Fort at 2nd.
The SQ of Hold Breath I would deem more than offset by the Dwarf's Darkvision,Defensive Training,and actually several others racial perks given to him. To the point of the Lizardman is short-changed here.
And of course the Lizardman will always be 1 class level behind the dwarf and actually unable to achieve a 20th level fighter.
IMO the Lizardman would be a good monster PC as it is very close to what a base race would have. As a player who seems to play Monster PC's often the Lizardfolk have always been an acceptable option.
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First I question exactly what the ability bonuses you came up with for Lizardfolk...a rough guess from default stats I see +2Str/+2Con/-2Int. A fairly standard array of bonuses.
Secondly, Skill points are listed in the Bestiary starting on page 306 based on creature type, Lizardfolk being a humanoid gives it 2+INT per HD.
You started with a 2nd level party...a 2nd level dwarf fighter with +2Con I only figure to have about 16HP ((d10 average of 5,+2Con,+1Favored) x 2 levels)...if he chooses the bonus HP for favored class per level. And the Lizardman fighter would average 19HP ((d8 average 4,+2Con) x 2) + d10 average 5,+2Con) so I don't see 19 vs. 16 being a distortion.
Skill pts would be Lizardman 6+(INTx3) vs. 4+(INTx2)for the dwarf so another slight advantage to Lizardman.
Base saves the Lizardman has another advantage with +4Fort racial (giving him +6 at 2nd level) vs. the Dwarf being a +3 Fort at 2nd.
The SQ of Hold Breath I would deem more than offset by the Dwarf's Darkvision,Defensive Training,and actually several others racial perks given to him. To the point of the Lizardman is short-changed here.
And of course the Lizardman will always be 1 class level behind the dwarf and actually unable to achieve a 20th level fighter.
IMO the Lizardman would be a good monster PC as it is very close to what a base race would have. As a player who seems to play Monster PC's often the Lizardfolk have always been an acceptable option.
A couple corrections.
The dwarf will have 10(1st hit die)+5.5(d10 avg.)+4(con x2)+2(favored x2), for 21 hp at 2nd level. According to page 12 of the PFRPGCRB, "A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level."
The Lizardman fighter would have 13 racial hp(4.5(d8 avg)x2)+4 con), and 8 fighter hp (5.5 (d10 avg)+2 con+1 favored), for a total of 21 hp. So, the EXACT same number of HP, and the Lizardman is "more powerful"?
Next, the Lizardman will have a total of 2+int more skill points than the dwarf, which could be as few as 1.
Third, they will have the same attack bonus. The dwarf gets +2 for levels of fighter, the lizardman gets +1 for racial HD and +1 for class HD. With the same strength, they have that in common as well.
Fourth, they have the same number of feats. The dwarf gains 1st level, Fighter bonus 1, and Fighter bonus 2. The lizardman has 1st HD, 3rd HD, and Fighter bonus 1.
The Lizardman does have the edge in saves, with a total of Fort +7, Ref +1+dex, and Will +1+wis. The dwarf is 1 behind in all saves.
Taking all that into consideration, the Dwarf is CLEARLY a superior character to play. The Lizardman's special/racial abilities aren't really worth the penalty, especially considering the Lizardman maxes out at 19th level...until we get better rules for "epic" play. Now, if you want to play a lizardman, just realize that he's not going to be as good as a 3rd level standard race fighter.
The Lizardman does have the edge in saves, with a total of Fort +7, Ref +1+dex, and Will +1+wis. The dwarf is 1 behind in all saves.
Taking all that into consideration, the Dwarf is CLEARLY a superior character to play. The Lizardman's special/racial abilities aren't really worth the penalty, especially considering the Lizardman maxes out at 19th level...until we get better rules for "epic" play. Now, if you want to play a lizardman, just realize that he's not going to be as good as a 3rd level standard race fighter.
Actually, you are forgetting the lizardfolk's natural armor. I think that huge boost of natural armor is worth the -1 character level penalty, and makes the two roughly equal at 2nd level.
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Actually, you are forgetting the lizardfolk's natural armor. I think that huge boost of natural armor is worth the -1 character level penalty, and makes the two roughly equal at 2nd level.The Lizardman does have the edge in saves, with a total of Fort +7, Ref +1+dex, and Will +1+wis. The dwarf is 1 behind in all saves.
Taking all that into consideration, the Dwarf is CLEARLY a superior character to play. The Lizardman's special/racial abilities aren't really worth the penalty, especially considering the Lizardman maxes out at 19th level...until we get better rules for "epic" play. Now, if you want to play a lizardman, just realize that he's not going to be as good as a 3rd level standard race fighter.
Right you are...that +5 nat'l armor bonus is huge. So, I'd say they're equal. I stand corrected.
There is one other thing you forgot in your analasys though Gator. And that's the Dwarven save bonus vs magic.In 95% of the cases it matters, the Dwarf's saves will actually be 2 higher than you accounted for.
I feel it's a smidge in favor of the dwarf really, particularily when you consider how dangerous will saves tend to be.
In 95% of saves it matters. I feel the extra AC, personally, counts in 95% of combats, so I think that equals out. Mainly because although magic isn't used as often as attacks, when it does hit it usually does worse to you than getting hit by a sword.
Why not just drop the 2 HD for lizard men. The Basic Red Box had lizard men and 2 HD because those lizardmen encountered in the wild were 2nd level fighters. (( Also true of Drow in 1st AD&D )).
Why not just drop the monster HD and start the PC Lizard man off at 1st level Class.
Like:
*)+2 to one ability score of players choice at creation.
*)Medium: Medium creature and have no bonuses or penalties due to size.
*)Normal Speed: Base land speed of 30 feet
*)Hold Breat(EX): A lizardfolk can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
*)Natural Swim Speed: 15 Feet.
*)Darkvision 60Feet.
*)Languates: Draconic and Common (Lizard folk with hight intelligence score can choose form the following: Boggard, Sylvan, Aquan, Terran, or Aklo.)
%)PC do not have natural AC, as there scales are very small & fine, like skin.
%)PC do have have claw attacks: treat their claw & bite attack the same way that you would for a Elf or Gnome.
Well, that now sucks, frankly. I'd have expected a little more pizazz, but it's a good start.
The dwarf save bonus isn't against magic in general, spells and spell-like abilities and poison, not supernatural abilities though, I find that to be ALOT less than 95 %.
Lizardman completely owns the dwarf in my opinion, mainly because of the + 5 natural armor, the claws and bite are nice, + 4 acrobatics are nice additions.
This is easily balanced though, maybe knock the natural armor down to +3, while common lizardmen do not usually wear armor, players definately will. I would give them full HD for that D8 though,
and allow that d8 to be rolled and take d12 full if the player takes a barbarian level.
I think the real problem here is the extra HD that the lizardman is getting. He'd have 3HD at lvl 2 as opposed to the 2 HD that everyone else would get. HD are perhaps the biggest indicator of a creature's stength since it boosts saves skills and BAB and DC of special attacks, so that extra HD is really a nice little bonus for the lizardman.
In general, it would be a very very bad idea to allow a PC to play a race that gave it bonus HD over its 'level.' In 3.5 it would often be the opposite, playing a powerful race would sometimes mean having less HD than your level.
If I had a PC that wanted to play a lizardman, I'd treat a lizardman fighter 1 as a lvl 3 character. This also matches the CR with a lvl 3 heroic classed character with no racial HD; A lizardman fighter 1 is a CR 2, a dwarf fighter 3 is a CR 2. (Although I'll be the first to state that CR isn't a reliable indicator of how evenly matched a creature meant for an encounter is versus a character who has to exist throughout a campaign.)
Now to compare a lizardman fighter 1 with dwarf fighter 3. Dwarf has better HPs (3d10 and max at 1st lvl vs 2d8 + 1d10, although for a PC I'd give the lizardman max on his 1st fighter lvl too), better BAB (by 1), and an extra fighter feat. Dwarf will presumably have 2 extra levels in a favored class. Saves are basically a wash (liazardman has 5/0/0, dwarf has 3/1/1.) Dwarf also gets darkvision (huge), stability (pretty good but situational), some situational save bonuses, and some other very situational racial boosts.
On the other hand, the lizardman has the huge boost to natural armor, a swim speed, slightly better racial ability boosts (at least for a fighter), and the natural attacks. These are a bit better than the dwarf's racial abilities in most cases, particularly the natural armor bonus which is huge and the two natural attacks, which can be very big if used right (say the lizardman focuses on reach weapons and still has his bite attack for close range).
So I'd say it basically washes out, although the +5 natural armor might overshadow the other pros and cons at times down the road.